Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - SAVANNAH GUTHRIE MOM MISSING: DAY 31

Episode Date: March 3, 2026

The Guthrie siblings' grief visible as they visit the makeshift memorial set up outside Nancy Guthrie's home. The trio leaving their own note to their mother.   It reads:  "Momma, we miss you so much! Our hearts are broken. We are standing on ash, on scored earth! But Mom, though we are surrounded by so much darkness and uncertainty, our love burns bright. We love you Mommy. We miss you so much. Our best friend!!" Meanwhile, the search continues as Pima County Sheriff Chris Nanos says investigators are ‘Definitely Closer,’ but are they? See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Day 31, Nancy Guthrie missing. I've never seen anything like it before with this amount of evidence. The guy's on video. We have his height. We have his weight.

We have the date. We've got the time. We've got 50,000 tips. Nancy Guthrie's stuff. Still missing. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. So Sheriff, it's been 30 days since Nancy Guthrie went missing. Are investigators any closer to finding the suspect or suspects? I think the investigators are definitely closer. We got a lot of intel, a lot of leads, but now it's time to just go to work. This is Sheriff Nannos from our friends at the Today Show. Day 31, Nancy Guthrie still missing. The reward.

now up to over $1.2 million. Straight out to crime stories investigative reporter, Dave Mac. Dave, what's the latest? Nancy, it has been a remarkable 24 hours. Yet we saw Savannah and her sister Annie and Annie's husband as it was such an emotional time as they went to the memorial, the makeshift memorial at Nancy Guthrie's home. It's right on the edge of the property. up by neighbors and just people who want to show the Guthrie family that, you know, they're thinking

of them. But Annie and Tomaso joined Savannah as they walked arm and armed to this makeshift memorial and left a note for their mother. And I'm telling you, it was just so powerful. Also, you know, from the madness, we've had a lot of streaming people, you know, people who are journalist or claimed to be journalist. But there was a shocking moment that has taken place out in front of Nancy Guthrie's home. And it kind of goes back to why the sheriff's department has moved everyone away from the neighborhood. Yeah, you know, the media, legitimate media as streamers, everybody, have been backed up. And there's also coming out right now, we had two people detained early on in the investigation. It ended up, if you remember, a range rover was taped off in a

Culver's parking lot. And law enforcement searched this thing. They searched that, they took it back to the lab and did everything they do in searching this range rover. But they also served two search warrants the same time and actually detained a 37-year-old Luke Daly and his mother, These people have been outed, I guess is the only way to put it, by some people online that are suggesting that Luke Daley is the kidnapper in the video. And Luke Daly, the only reason I'm even mentioning his name is because he actually has come out publicly to say, I'm the guy that was detained. It was my Range Rover. And I have nothing to do with this. So we've got that information now coming out and then that Luke and his mother both speaking out publicly.

We'd like to add something. And the search warrants that were served at two different locations for the Guthrie as part of the Guthrie investigation, Mary Daly, Luke Daly's mother, she's 77 years old. And while they were serving a search warrant on her home, she was detained in the back. of a police squad car for seven hours in a car while they served that search warrant. And I guess it's just one of those little sidebar things you don't think about, you know, of what happens when they serve a search warrant to the people who live there, especially if the people involved had nothing to do with the crime.

So those are the latest things that are really making noise today. Also, there has been an interesting take on senior. citizen communities, such as where Nancy Guthrie lives. And they seem to be very safe. You would think that if your mom and dad live in an area like this in their retirement, their golden years, that they would be safe. It's not necessarily the case. In neighborhoods like Nancy Guthrie's, you're not living right next door to a neighbor. There's a good amount of distance between you. And oftentimes in these neighborhoods, people don't know one another. So if you don't know your neighbor because you don't see them regularly or you just don't know them, you know, then you don't know their patterns.

You don't know when something might seem off. And that's something to think about. And some experts have chimed in on that in the last 48 hours talking about these retirement type communities and how they're not as safe, even gated communities, not nearly as safe as we would like to believe they are. So that was fascinating. It's one of the things we have found out in Nancy Guthrie's case. There are a number of other things involved in this investigation that are continuing to move forward. And, you know, we're just going to have to wait our turn, I guess. But to go back to Savannah Guthrie yesterday, you know, we talked a minute ago about the notes left behind.

There was a note left at the memorial, the makeshift memorial. Cameron Guthrie, by the way, Savannah's older brother, he was not present. I don't know if he's still in the Tucson area or if he's gone back home, but they left a note for at the memorial, speaking directly to Nancy Guthrie. It says, Mama, we miss you so much. Our hearts are broken. We are standing on ash, on scorched earth. But, Mom, though we are surrounded.

by so much darkness and uncertainty, our love burns bright. We love you, Mommy. We miss you so much, our best friend. Then later in the day, after the public got notice of the memorial or the makeshift memorial, Savannah Guthrie posted on Instagram a private message. By the way, this was the first time, other than in video form, that Savannah Guthrie has been seen out in public. since all of this started on February 1st. We have seen the family on video.

This was the first time actually seen out in public. Later in the day, Savannah Guthrie released this on Instagram. We feel the love and prayers from our neighbors, from the Tucson community, and from around the country. Please don't stop praying and hoping with us. Bring her home. So that kind of gets you updated on what's taking place right now in the Guthrie investigation in Tucson. So now the biggest question is, where do we go from here? What's the next step in the investigation? Chris McDonough joining us, former homicide detective with over 300 homicides under his

belt, now director at Cold Case Foundation, and star of the interview room on YouTube. Chris McDonough, if you were handling this case, what would you be doing right now? So Nancy, I think here's what's going to happen right now, the investigation has compressed. That's what we would call it, meaning, you know, the task force where there was a command center for both the FBI and the Pima County Sheriff's Office, you know, had assembled together in one working group, has now split into two. There have been investigators assigned from the Pima County Sheriff's Office who, my best estimates going to be the same homicide team that was called out from the very beginning. They are now pulled back into their own agency where they'll be working alongside probably one FBI agent.

And then the FBI has pulled back into the Phoenix headquarters where they're going to establish their own little, you know, war room, what we'll call it. And from there, both of those agencies will work simultaneously. Both of those agencies will work together, but they will be working in tandem on any type of investigative leads that come in. So I think at this point, what I believe is going to be pivotal in relationship to solving this investigation. First of all, it's going to have to go back to re-interviewing all the other folks.

that you started to interview from the very beginning. Because the reason for that is the investigation may have uncovered, you know, additional information like digital footprints, DNA, and all of that stuff that's starting to come back. Well, you may have an original statement from somebody early on. So it's imperative that investigators go back and they sit down with the initial witnesses that they spoke to in the very beginning because a lot of times witnesses also will recall events

that they forgot, you know, to tell investigators and that, you know, you just never know. There could be one word that could change the course of the entire focus. And then I think that when the DNA starts to come back and depending on what type of DNA they're trying to, you know, get, that could take a little bit longer. So this is really a focused investigation now from the digital footprint.

And I believe that's probably why they started, you know, taking up the car avenue, you know, where they got the Range Rover, they served some search warrants. I believe those individuals came into that geographic, or excuse me, the geo-fencing that they had established post-the-crime. and pre-crime. So they saw networks coming in, cell phones, that type of stuff. And then they started contacting those people. And what did you get? You got a door dash driver. You got a guy driving a range rover who says, hey, yeah, I drive through that area, etc.

And so those search warrants were established pretty quickly. And then, of course, you have the Bitcoin problem that was out there. they hit the guy in Los Angeles pretty fast. And so what they're doing is they're just checking off the boxes. And then once those boxes are all checked, they're going to see what's left. And that's where, you know, go to old gum shoe police work where you just go, you know, knocking on doors and you start re-interviewing people over again. And that's where you get the anomalies in an investigation typically. Chris, what vehicles have been returned to their proper own? at this point? At this point, Dave, what you have is the Range Rover has been returned.

So there were three cars in my understanding that were actually impounded. The Range Rover, the victim's car, Nancy's, and the daughter's car, believe it or not, Annie's family car. Nancy's car is still being holed for obvious reasons, you know, the fact that she's, you know, the missing victim here. However, the authority. authorities at Pima County Sheriff's Department have not released Annie's car. They're not also telling us why that is the case. And so that's somewhat of a mystery right now, why they would hold that car for almost a month. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Irv Brandt joining us, former Senior Inspector U.S. Marshal Service International Investigations Branch, Chief Inspector with the DOJ International Affairs. Country Attachet has been all over the world working in embassies and author of a series on Amazon of Jack Solo, the most recent Going Solo, the Gospel of Luke. Irv, thank you for being with us. We can't get away from the possibility Nancy Guthrie was taken to Mexico. How do you go about extricating someone from Mexico?

Well, it is. It will be a lot different than what you would conduct here in the United States. And you would partner up, you would have a liaison with your Mexican counterparts. But the agencies like the FBI in the United States Marshal Service and things like that, when we send people to these countries, these are people who are very proficient in Spanish, and they're very familiar with the culture. You know, a lot of them have families on both sides of the borders. They know how to work an operation, and they know how to conduct an investigation in Mexico. It's not like, you know, a stranger coming from Abad.

I don't know the names of the streets and, you know, things like that. That's not the case. They know these cities backwards and forwards, and they know the law enforcement in there. It's not going to be a problem for them to conduct these investigations and follow whatever leads come up. Irv Brandt, there are huge swaths of thousands of acres that are uninhabited. Where do you start? Well, to go into Mexico to search and basically what you're saying is to conduct a criminal investigation in a sovereign nation, you have to seek permission. And it would go through our legal attaches that we have at our embassies and our consulates.

And Mexican authorities are more than willing to cooperate with U.S. law enforcement. And we have a very large presence in Mexico. The FBI has a large presence in Mexico. The DEA has a large presence in Mexico. The United States Marshal Service has a large presence in Mexico. And all these agencies will work together. They will pull their resources. They'll pull their manpower together.

And they all have liaisons with the Mexican. Mexican federal police, but also the police in the jurisdictions that you're going to, you know, into the towns and to the things like that. And they will help facilitate the federal agents getting in and talking and following up on these leads and doing searches. Irv Brandt, how far into Mexico, if this is a viable alternative, how far into Mexico, do you think the perps would have gone. Well, the first thing, the places that I would hit first are the places that are closest. You would start where you would possibly think the easiest border crossing would be. You know, you define what that is. Then you concentrate your law enforcement,

you know, with the photographs and, you know, the materials that they need. And, you know, start there and do it very intensely. And if you get zero results, zero leads, that's when you start expanding it out. And I would expand it out along the border before going deeper into Mexico. The thing, the first thing that you would want to know is where they crossed at, then that would give you a bigger clue as to where they were going, you know, once they're inside of. Mexico. So, I mean, it's very different if you, you know, cross from, you know, San Diego, for example, into Tijuana, as opposed to you cross from El Paso into Juarez. I mean, that would change

the scope of the investigation dramatic. Irv Brent, you have dealt with all sorts of offenders all around the world. What's your take on this guy? If you were going to write how not to conduct a kidnapping, this is the perfect example. This case makes no sense. Kidnapping is a crime, as oldest time itself. You know, people kidnapping, you know, people for ransom or for hostages to ensure things. It's been going on forever. And I have never encountered a case that's similar. I mean, not even close. I've never, in all my years in law enforcement, I've never heard of a case like this that defies logic.

I've gone over it in my head and doing just what you said. As an investigator, you have to try to get in the mind of the kidnapper. and the only thing that you know the only phrase that keeps coming out into my mind is what were you thinking what were you thinking what were you thinking you know this is clearly not someone who's ever did a kidnapping before i mean uh i i just i can make no sense of it and i can't get behind the reasoning of you know how this happened and any logical explanation for you. I don't know. It is just the most bizarre thing I have ever encountered when you talk about kidnappings. There are so far many other,

just like you said, with the notes and things, you don't go to the media. I mean, that's the last thing you do. You tell the people, don't go to the police. and don't go to the media or you'll never see your loved one again. I mean, that's basic kidnapping 101. It seems like they went in the exact opposite way on how to conduct a kidnapping.

Hi there. Coming on to say, it is day 24 since our mom was taken in the dark of night from her bed. And every hour and minute and second and every long night has been agony since then of worrying about her and fearing for her and aching for her. And most of all, just missing her is missing her. Savannah Guthrie, you can see her deteriorating with every missive, with every video plea. that she issues. That reward is full of implications. For instance, earlier, up until that time, the reward had been predicated upon the arrest and or conviction of the kidnapper. Not so anymore. The family begging for information to bring Nancy Guthrie home.

This, as we learn, a DNA sample found in the home is absolutely, definitively, stranger DNA. Where was it found? When was it found? Can it be isolated and identified? A lot happening straight out to special guests joining us, Mary Coleman. She is the 13 evening anchor at K-O-L-D. If you will recall that was one of the stations that got a ransom note. Mary Coleman, thank you for being with us. Mary, what is the latest? Well, Nancy, talking about the ransom note, a lot of people have questioned why there's been silence.

We personally haven't received any notes for a while now, and a lot of people are still questioning the legitimacy of those notes. Law enforcement still hasn't said one way or another, but it was clear, when the family started coming out with those videos, that they were taking these notes very seriously because of some of the contents of them. There was a flurry of activity. This is from our friends at Fox News.

Mary Coleman joining us, K-O-L-D. Also, Mary, were you there at your station when the first note came in? The mood was still the same when I got in, when we saw the first notes just because of how put together the note was. It was pretty alarming once we started to read it a little further, and we immediately handed that over to law enforcement. What was so alarming about it?

I think how eloquent this person was, frankly, Nancy. I mean, you would think some note like this would be all over the place. It's a ransom note. Someone's demanding something. So you would think that they'd be in a state. of shock or, you know, a different state. But this person was clearly in a place where they were able to get their thoughts across. It was clear, concise.

And I think that was what was most alarming to us is that that's when we said, okay, this might be real. This might not be a hoax. What about it made you think it was real, Mary? There were some details in there that only a person who perhaps was with Nancy, would know. And I think, you know, law enforcement finally alluded to some of those details a little bit later on, a watch and some of the things that may have been in her room. And so seeing those and hearing about that was just, it was a lot for us to see. And again, immediately sent it over to law enforcement who also immediately got back to us and asked for some more details so that they could

try and track down who it was. And as we also mentioned again earlier, it's gone pretty, silent from whoever this person or people is as far as notes coming into our newsroom. Mary, did that note that you observed with K-O-L-D, did it offer proof of life other than the details about the inside of her room? It did not, Nancy. We actually received two notes. The first one I would call a ransom note. The second, I wouldn't. There were no demands there, but there was no proof of life in either of those notes that we received. The first, one was a ransom. The second one, they did not ask for a ransom. What did they want? It was more of a declaration. And unfortunately, I still can't talk too much about the contents

of these notes, because once again, we still don't know the legitimacy of them. And law enforcement is still looking into that. But there were no requests in this note. It was more of a declaration. And I think the tone of the videos that the family released after kind of indicated what may have been in that note and how they were feeling about if these were legitimate. Exactly, Mary, I understand because the desperation exhibited in each progressive video from Savannah and her siblings tells me that they got more and more concerned likely because of these notes. So you're not telling me this, but I am interpreting that the second note, while it did not demand a ransom, or an increase in ransom, it emphasized the seriousness of the first note.

And of course, you guys immediately handed that over. Guys, again, Mary Coleman joining us from K-O-L-D. We've heard a lot about the missive sent to TMZ. There was also a missive sent to K-G-U-N, 2 sent to K-O-L-D. And the nature of the notes and the recipients indicated to me on day one that this was someone in the Tucson area that maybe grew up hearing or watching K-O-L-D, was very familiar with it. That said, when you read the notes, Mary Coleman, and I'm not asking you to divulge their contents, I know you won't do that. Did you believe they were real,

and were you afraid for Mrs. Guthrie? Sure, yeah. I mean, the first one, it took us a second, once we started reading a little bit further, and that's when we felt like these were legitimate claims being made. And so by the time the second one came in, we were all very alarmed by it. And I will say that, yes, absolutely, our stomachs dropped and our guts were not feeling great. We were scared and still are scared for what happened to Nancy. And at the end of the day, the goal is getting her back. and that's, you know, what everyone wants right now. I know you will not divulge details,

but in the notes, did the person writing the notes, threatened specific harm to Nancy? Let's see. In the first note, there was an allusion to something that may happen if a price wasn't paid. In the second note, there was none of that. So the first note was more threatening than the second note. The second note was more, hey, I really meant it.

When I sent that first note, would that be accurate? Supporting the first, correct. Got it. And then, interestingly, a lot of the missives went dead. And this is unlike any other ransom scenario I've ever seen. I've still got to get back to the DNA. That's what I want to talk about tonight. The DNA found it the scene.

But Breivis Gibbons is joining us. Director Operations, USPA, nationwide security. He actually leads a team of missing persons, investigators that travel the world, extracting them and finding them at uspa security.com. Also, former Marine, also Iraqi War vet. Needless to say, he's seen it all. Typically in a ransom, which is why a lot of people were curious about the timing of these notes, the person is kidnapped and you immediately get a ransom. They don't just hold on to an 84-year-old woman for multiple days and then go, oh yeah, hey, I meant to send this the other day, but now here it is. That was very unusual because the point of the kidnap is to get the money.

And they waited for, was it 72 hours or more before the first ransom note? I find it hard to believe, Brian, you have to analyze this like it's a Rubik's Cube until you put it all together, constantly changing your theory. I wonder if they hadn't decided yet to whom they would send the ransom. Because they originally sent it right to three places, TMZ, K-O-L-D and believe K-G-U-N. Did they not have it together because they had certainly been at her home before. They had taken time to stake it out, but what they didn't have their ransom idea together? What do you make of the delay? never, to our knowledge, have sent visual proof of life, like a video or a picture of Nancy

Guthrie. They did, however, according to Mary Coleman, K-O-L-D, give details from the inside of her room. Now, some of the details were already out there like her smartwatch, like the floodlight. But I'm inferring that there were more details in that ransom note that other people couldn't glean by just hopping on the internet. Absolutely. And these ransom notes that were sent to the media outlets don't meet any of the traditional hallmarks of a kidnapping ransom case. That's something that's been highlighted very early on, right? Reaching out to the media versus directly to the family, not having a clear and distinct path for payment and terms, not providing proof of life. You know, these are things that a typical kidnap and ransom case, the ransomer will want to be in direct contact

with the family to make this deal as quickly as possible. And that didn't happen here. So it really lends credence to the idea that these were opportunists and not authentic. What do we know about an accomplice? What is the theory behind that? Not only that, the drumbeat louder that somehow a Mexican cartel is involved. I find that very difficult to believe. Nothing about Nancy Guthrie's kidnapping has any hallmark of a cartel operation. This as Google is working fast and furious to recover even more video, possibly audio, biological matter and DNA found in the home. This as Sheriff Nanos blurts out more strategic. information that being, that he thinks there's an accomplice, and that he believes Nancy Guthrie

is being held close to home. Neas Flash, accomplice, we know about you, and the sheriff's looking for you. Way to go, Nanos. You're like a gumball machine. I said it last night. It's up here and it just comes out. You can't stop it. Not only that, revealing his belief that Nancy Guthrie is close to home, is that why we see

raids on neighbors? All this is happening now and more straight out to Dave Mack Crime Stories investigative reporter. And as we mentioned before Dave Mack, the Guthrie family feeling the onus upon them to try and get searches started in Mexico. I mean, it just never ends with all they're going through. You know, Dave, let me just be blunt.

You and I've talked many, many, many times off camera. You were a guest, one of my favorite guests all the way back at HLN. I don't know if you recall that or not. Oh, yeah. I remember. I don't know how. Yeah, good times. But Dave, I don't know how I would have done it if right after my fiancé was murdered.

I was told, okay, now you help us solve it, okay? Now get busy. It's insane. But Savannah, our friend, Savannah Guthrie, feels they have to reach out to groups in Mexico to try and find her mother. I mean, insanity. But let's start with the latest. Nana's blurting out. He believes that Nancy Guthrie is being held close to home.

Why is he saying that? And about an accomplice. What about those polygraphs? We've heard nothing about them. Okay, Dave, bring me up to date. Let's start with the accomplice. because this goes to the nitty gritty of, you know, you talked about how Nanos just is blurting stuff. The other day, that's what he was doing.

He blurted out that he believes there's an accomplice. And the suggestion is that we have the video of the bungling kidnapper at the front door, and we don't see a second person, but we know we've got an 84-year-old woman who lacks mobility and is going to need help to leave. A lot of what Nanos is saying, I really think he's just kind of theorizing in his head and just blurting out ideas because he doesn't know what to say.

But Nancy's suggesting. Do you recall what I told you, my elected district attorney, he was like a grandfather to me, Lewis Slayton. At the time, he was the longest serving elected DA in the country, I believe it was 37 years. And he had a rule.

Do not speak to the press. And whenever I would be cornered coming in or out of the courthouse, I would always say the same thing. They seemingly never caught on. I would always say, I believe the jury will return a true verdict. That's it. That would be it. So all the spinning out, let's say, I'm just talking out loud, it's insane. That's a huge, huge no-no.

To Franz Borkhart joining us, a criminal defense attorney founder of Borkart's law firm, former prosecutor, professor of Louisiana State University. Franz, that's just what the defense team would love and what the kidnapper loves. He is, and it's a he, he is getting all of his information, anything he needs to know from Nanos. I can't believe they are still talking to the press, and you're absolutely right, Nancy. as a defense attorney, I'm just taking notes. I'm sitting back and I'm going to do a search for any and everything that was said before the arrest, because eventually they're going to make an arrest on this one.

But yeah, he needs to shut his hole and just stop because he's not helping the investigation. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Brian Fitzgivens joining us, and Brian, I'm going to circle back to you on the possibility that this is a cartel operation, which is far-fetched, extremely far-fetched, but I'll get you to explain why, so we can put that away and get it off our table of analysis. Brian Fitzgibbens is joining us. He's the Director of Operations at USPA nationwide security. What is that?

He leads a team of investigators around the world, finding missing people. He is a Marine vet. He is a former Marine and an Iraqi War vet. But let me talk to you about the possibility of an accomplice because it's been out there circulating and the nanos blurted it out that he thinks there may be an accomplice. Why he said that. I mean, really? It's just like waving the red flag in front of a bull.

It's like putting on the overhead speaker in high school, we now know there's an accomplice and we're coming after you, which in my mind would only make the accomplice. panic. But that said, what lays you to agree or disagree regarding an accomplice? I certainly agree with that, Nancy. I've been saying this since we started covering this case. First of all, just like we call him, you know, the bungling kidnapper on the porch, this is indicative to me that he's being controlled and supervised by somebody, that he did not do this alone. This was just a first. foot soldier that was sent forward, you know, to disable that camera and gain entry to the house.

So I think his lack of sophistication on that porch itself shows that there's someone else involved who's his superior. Nobody is biting about the backpack. I keep saying it and nobody's touching it with 10 foot pole. Fitzgibbon's, he comes up to the scene. Let's see him when he first approaches. who gave him the backpack? Because there is absolutely a moment he doesn't have the backpack.

Where did it go? Who gave it to him? Was it in the car? Did he have to go retrieve it? Did he put it back in the car? So if there is a car, trust me, he didn't leave it laying out on the front lawn. So if there's a car, is somebody in the car? Do you really think, just think about it for,

intrinsically, clinically. Would he do this alone? Because the reason I care Fitzgibbens is the more people involved, the more likely somebody's going to talk. You've got an extra girlfriend, you've got an extra grandma or mom or an extra neighbor or little sister. Somebody knows something's up. And that reward is climbing. That's why I care if there's an accomplice. They can both go straight to hell and burn for all I care, but I want to catch them. So what do you think about the backpack aspect? Yeah, and there's one, I agree with you there that that backpack wouldn't have just been placed on the ground randomly. In that first video, when you see him approaching the porch, there's a shadow being cast from the left to the right, indicative of that motion light that was destroyed.

when you later see him without the backpack on, there is no similar shadow. So you can extrapolate from that that, you know, he may have had tools either to gain access or to destroy that light, which we know was indeed destroyed on that side of the house. So how does that fit into the accomplice theory? Yeah, that he's passing off that equipment after he's done with it, either storing it in a car because, you know, now it's pitch black out in front of the house. You're not just going to leave the backpack and the pitch black on the ground. You know, Brian Fitzgibbon's, that's really astute.

Let me keep looking at this while Brian talks, because I want to, I want everyone to see what he's talking about. You're right, when he walks up, there is the shadow. You can see that that bright night light is on. And it's not just his bite light. It's lit up behind him, behind the bite light as well. Okay. Then as you look later without the backpack, everything's dark.

I don't believe he climbed up and got and dismantled that nightlight on his own. That's a really good point. Joining me, Dr. Michelle Joy Forensic Clinical Academic Psychiatrist, author of The Schmuck in my office, You can find her at West Philly Morbidart. Dr. Michelle, thank you for being with us. What do you make of the psychological evaluation of whether he had an accomplice? Did he do this all on his own? I think there's a lot to be garnered from the video, as the other people interviewed so far have said.

But I think that what makes the most sense to me is his lack of, of facelness with everything, right? I know that exactly that gun there. Previously, some former FBI agents had spoken about just his lack of expertise with carrying a firearm is kind of holstered in front of him and waving around and things like this. So I think that his lack of sophistication

makes me agree with the previous person that was interviewed was that there's someone else, directing most likely this because the if being this bumbling as we've used the word so far just at the intro to the scene you wouldn't think that you would have coordinated you know anything successful enough to not only have this person and when i say successfully obviously tragically successfully to you know be able to extract her and to have her you know disappear for this long it just seems like something would have gone wrong from his perspective um you know, being a lone actor.

Now there is the specter of Mexican cartel involvement. But after speaking to Border Patrol officers and experts in the area, I don't buy it. Cartels usually target people within Mexico. Can anybody on this panel name a single U.S. citizen taken from the U.S. by the cartels? Obviously, no. So I've noticed in cartel schemes, they typically correspond to local events, local extortion plots, business dealings, drug issues. To Brian Fitzgibbens, do you agree or disagree? You have rescued people out of Mexico.

Does this have any resemblance to a cartel job? Not at all, Nancy. The primary reason is just like you said. This is a U.S. citizen high profile in nature. This is going to draw an incredible amount of, it has drawn an incredible amount of media attention and an incredible amount of unwanted attention to the cartel from the U.S. federal government.

The second point that I'm going to make is all the hallmarks of a typical cartel ransom and kidnapping, a kidnapping ransom operation are not being met here. There would be a clear and sophisticated way to pay. They would want to be able to cash out easily and make that process very seamless. This doesn't meet any of those criteria. You know, when it comes to Mexico, Brian Fitzgibbon's,

let's just pretend for one moment that she has been moved to Mexico. That's not playing into all the crazy zanee cartel theories. but if she has been moved to Mexico, what do you do to extract someone out of Mexico? We know that the feds are accessing IFAMILIA, which is the Mexican equivalent of our DNA data bank CODIS, although it's used mostly for identifying bodies in murder cases. Also, of course, they're looking internationally at Interpol databases.

I think good news is that they are looking at the Arizona database, which is a lot less stringent. You get more information. For instance, suspects are in there. Not pristine DNA, DNA mixtures are in there. The CODA's database would not allow everything that is allowed in the Arizona DNA data bank. And that's good for this case. That's good for the Arizona search because you've got a wider, pool, there's over half a million profiles in the Arizona data bank. But back to Mexico,

how would you extract someone from Mexico? Yeah, you know, you first need to understand that Mexico is a very non-permissible environment, especially to search for a missing foreign national. This is for a few reasons. One, the levels of local government corruption in Mexico are almost unfathomable to a typical American. Second, wide swaths of territory are primarily, primarily controlled by cartels. That's both from a physical security perspective and from a political perspective. And that all leads me to say that the public, especially with such a high-profile case, will lack an urgency or willingness to be involved. involved in this search for fear of reprisals.

Whether or not the cartel is or is not involved, they do control these areas. So the public will be very apprehensive to participate in this. And that all leads me to say that any search in Mexico that's going to have a positive result is going to come through US federal government diplomatic channels. That is the number one main effort in any search taking place in Mexico.

Thomas Smith joining us, former NYPD detective, worked in homicide, was with the Joint Terrorism Task Force, now star Gold Shields podcast, Tom. The ransom letters. If, if they are connected, how could this idget who's trying to put, reaches down and grabs a clump of plants to put over the door cam, how could that? that guy write a very eloquent, well-worded, well-crafted, ransom note. Let's see the guy. Here he goes.

There, that's the ticket. I'll grab these plants. Yeah, okay, that's not working. I don't see it being the same person, Tom. And I'm not, I was never, ever sold on the ransom notes that was sent to Tams. Never. Because of the time frame that it took to get them, kidnappers don't work that way, Nancy. They grab their target.

They set up what they want, who they're going to contact, and it's done quickly. Because the longer that kidnappers have their victims with them, it gives law enforcement a quicker time and a shorter time span to track them down. Kidnppings are done quickly. And on your other point, I don't think this was done by himself at all. Kidnppings are usually never done by one person, whether there's someone sitting in a car or standing and looking around as a lookout, but there is someone else in that area helping him. To carry someone out and get someone out of a house, even remotely resisting is very, very difficult for one person to do and then try to get them into a vehicle is a monumental task.

And I never thought this was done by one person, and I still don't. You know, I am projecting, which is not helpful when you're trying to try a case. But Tom, my mom lives with us. She's 94. And when you try to pick her up, it's dead weight. When you try to help her walk very often, I'll just get her to sit on her walker and I will wheel her wherever we're going because it is so hard to manage her. It's like two giant tall kitchen trash bags full of sand. And they go this way and that way and you're trying to drag them.

It's hard. We know that she was upright, we believe she was upright when she first came out the door. Because those blood drops are clearly low velocity droplets. And if you study them, you see that in one spot, there are a couple, which means she was standing still, unable to go forward, just standing there. I don't know if she's trying to get her balance, but she stood there and several droplets fell in one place. There was kind of a satellite dropping, a grouping. That said, I think someone had to help her out the front door. And that's not a one-man job.

Agree, disagree. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And listen, if she had any thought in her head, we tell, you know, people who might be abducted, even children, all right? Even kids drop down to the ground and become dead weight. Even a 10, 12 year old kid that's laying down on the ground is hard to pick up and get somewhere, much less an 84 year old woman. It's very difficult. And I don't think it's possible. And I am in total agreement with you that this was definitely more than one person. Reminder, there is over a $1 million reward in place. If you know or think you know anything about the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, please dial toll-free. 800-2-25-324. Repeat. 800-2-25-5-324. Or if you wish to remain anonymous, 520882-7463.

Repeat. 5208-8827463. I want to thank all of our guests for being with us tonight, believe it or not, day 31 of this investigation. But I especially want to thank you for being with us and joining the investigation. Remember, we are scouring Twitter, X, Insta, Facebook, and reading your ideas and your tips. Please keep them coming. Bensy Gray signing off for tonight. And remember what Savannah said. Pray without cease.

Good night.