Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Savannah Guthrie Mom Missing: Day 6

Episode Date: February 6, 2026

Nancy Guthrie's family makes another plea to those who kidnapped the 84-year-old grandmother, for proof that their mother. Still no suspects named as police investigate a mysterious white van spotted before Nancy Guthrie disappeared.  Joining Nancy Grace today: Todd Shipley - Digital Cyber-Crime Expert, Former Detective Sergeant with the Reno, Nevada Police Dept. - (with 25 years in law enforcement), Author of, "Surviving a Cyberattack: Securing Social Media and Protecting Your Home," and “Investigating Internet Crimes: An Introduction to Solving Crimes in Cyberspace;" X: @webcase Chris McDonough – Director at the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective, and Host of YouTube Channel: “The Interview Room”  Jeff Gentry - Forensics Crime Scene Investigator, Certified Bloodstain Pattern Analyst, Death Investigator, Former Toxicology Lab Analyst, and Author: “A Visual Guide to Bloodstain Pattern Analysis: Bloodstain Pattern Analysis for Death and Crime Scene Investigators;” TikTok: @jeffreygentryBPA, Facebook: Jeff Gentry Bloodstain Pattern Analyst Dave Mack - Investigative Reporter, 'Crime Stories' See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The ration of note that was distributed to the media did make a demand for 5 p.m. today. And if a transfer wasn't made, then I think a second demand was for next Monday. We're not going to go beyond that. But that was the ransom note the media received. The suggestion that time is up for Savannah Guthrie.

mother. But the PIRP issued another ultimatum, another deadline coming up in two days. Breaking news. Savannah Guthrie's mother missing day six. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

I want to thank you for being with us. With me and all star panel, each one, an expert in their own right. Straight out to Crime Stories investigative reporter, Dave Mack, Dave Mack. heartbreaking watching Cameron Guthrie's plea. This on the heels of Sister Savannah.

As a matter of fact, for those of you that have only seen our friends, Savannah Guthrie's agonizing plea for her mother to be brought home, I want you to hear Cameron Guthrie's plea for his mother to be brought home. Listen. This is Cameron Guthrie. I'm speaking for the Guthrie family. Whoever is out there holding our mom. mother. We want to hear from you. We haven't heard anything directly. We need you to reach out and we need

a way to communicate with you so we can move forward. But first, we have to know that you have our mom. We want to talk to you and we are waiting for contact. Are they going to have to go old school to find Nancy Guthrie? I'm talking about dogs, drones, looking at the area. How far could she have gotten? Are there two or more people involved? This as many. speculate the perp is within or close to the family. But I just want to tell you, let me go straight out to you, Dave Mack. I find it very, very hard to believe. Let's see a shot of Savannah with Sister Annie and Brother Cameron as they were making that plea. I find it very difficult to believe Dave Mack that the brother and the sister and Savannah could sit there begging for the return

of their mother while secretly wondering, hey, is Cousin Larry part of this? I mean, knowing something of that import, I don't see it, Dave Mack. I mean, I know what the statistics say. I know the statistics say look to those closest to the victim. But just looking at the three siblings, I don't see it, Dave Mack, or maybe is that I don't want to see it? Nancy, it looks to me like they don't consider it somebody that's very close to them. But Nancy, in all probability, the person or persons involved in this had access to that house before. Now, that leaves you with gardeners, people that come by to help out with things around the house. There are a lot of people that had access to that house, and they would have been familiar with camera placement

and things like that that you've mentioned before about the granny camp. So there are a lot of people beyond that close family friend group that would have had access to that house. And maybe that's why you're seeing, they just look devastated to me. The whole family does. And all the communication is one way. It's coming from the kidnappers to them. They have no way of contacting the kidnapper or kidnappers at this point. They've been given no communication way of reaching out.

That's why Cameron said, we need to know you've got her. We need okay. And we need you to reach out to us to tell us. how to get up with you. They don't know who it is, but it could be somebody they've seen a lot. You know, Dave Mack, you're right. Again, a lot of speculation, swirling about a family member somehow being involved, but when I look at those three, I just don't see it. Or maybe I'm blind, but I'm rejecting that. This as the theory has swirled of a really sinister plot to go into the home and remove the door cam.

The front door cam, let's see a shot up where the door cam would have been. Like coming in, for instance, through the back door, coming through, reaching out the front door and yanking that off. So you, the perp, are not pictured on the door cam and then waiting. Because if you look at the timeline, now let's see the timeline, please. If you look at the timeline, there's about a 20-minute gap. You've got her coming home from dinner in Majong with Annie and the son-in-law. Okay, then the garage door closes, and we assume she's entering through the kitchen door from her garage.

Then look at it, the door cam disconnects on the front door. Then you've got about 20 minutes. Did they yank off the door cam and wait to see if police? would arrive. Now, Dave, Matt, correct me if I'm wrong, please, because these times are critical. Wasn't there a spike? A noticeable spike in her pacemaker, her heart monitor at 2 a.m. There was. There was a noticeable spike at 2 a.m. So you're talking about 13 minutes after the camera is pulled down. And that 13 minute window, you know, the first thing that happens when they're checking on somebody is a phone call. Are you okay? That's usually what happens with home security systems.

And then if nothing there, then the police at two o'clock, we, I believe anyway, that that's when the kidnapper or kidnappers were actually in her room and putting hands on her, getting her up out of bed. Straight out to Chris McDonough, our long time friend and colleague. He is the director at the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective with over 300 bona fide homicides under his belt. Also, host of the YouTube channel, the interview room where I found him. Chris, thank you for being with us. Regarding this whole theory that the family is involved in some way, which I reject,

I'm putting it out there. You and I have talked privately about a U-FED, you-Fed. It's a celebrate system. It's mobile, and it's carried in a box. Usually, it looks like a, you know, a messenger boy bag or a briefcase that you wear over your shoulder. That was seen being carried out of the family home. Explain what the celebrate you fed does. In a nutshell, don't go DefCom 4 on me.

So, well, there's a couple of things that it does. It's a mobile device that you can bring to a particular scene, in this case, the house. and then you're able to download any type of forensics evidence in the house from devices such as, you know, computers or, you know, phones, cell phones, et cetera. And then that information is immediately available through some software that Celebrite has to the investigators on the scene. It can get deleted text, emails, IMs. It can get encrypted. Correct. And it really came to the forefront of our national novel. our bubble of knowledge during the Alex Mernog trial, when a secret service witness

took the stand to explain how it was used in that case and it worked. This is what I'm thinking. That witness that observed the agent coming out with the youth head, it was like, you know, pouring gas on a flame, they suggested that the families involved. Number one, the family is always scrutinized first. Statistically, they are involved. I do not believe at this juncture that that is the case here. I want to defend them.

So that is not out of the ordinary. This is what I think they should do, Chris McDonough. Everybody take a polygraph. Everybody. Everybody in the family, all the granny nannies, everyone that worked with her in her yard, in her driveway, the handyman, the Instacart person. the pizza guy, all of them, even the Sunday school teacher.

Yes, I said it. Submit to a polygraph. What do you think about that, Chris McDonough? And then anybody that says H-E-W-L-N-O, they're at the top of my suspect list. Yeah, I think almost immediately that's not a bad idea, and I think that could be a path. But you can take Savannah and the brother off of that list right away.

What the anomaly is in that U-Fed problem, here is who brought it to the scene. And that was the ICAC team, internet crimes against children. So this could be a whole other lane that's not even being looked at here that is kind of a one-off from the actual abduction of Ms. Guthrie.

Okay, put him up. Are you saying that now we're investigating a crime on a child? Are you actually saying that? I'm saying that, well, I'm saying it's possible there could... Yes, yes, yes. It's possible. Okay. No.

No. They had the celebricks, so they brought it over. Now, if I'm asking you to bring over some case files, do you put on a crime story's t-shirt? No. You come in what you're wearing. Case solved. I don't think there's a... You know what?

Take him away. I'm going to let you sit there and think about what you just said. What? But, but, but-b-b-b-b-but-what? I'll tell you, here's the deal. When you have a major case like this, and I've worked many, of them and you run across something you go what is this okay you don't have the ICAC people show up with their youth fed that just doesn't happen that is a secondary problem that they

potentially could have run into it it may not be involved with miss guthrie in any way shape or form however these guys did show up and they don't show up to search for missing 84-year-old women that's my point Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Who are we looking at? Number one, I'm calling for polygraphs. Savannah Guthrie knows exactly what's going on right now. Savannah is not only a sweet, loving, sincere person.

I know because I worked with her. I've seen her under all sorts of stressful conditions, nothing like this, of course. But she knows the law, people, like the back of her hand. And I guarantee you she'd be the first one to get in line for the Polly to make everybody else do it. So what do we do now? Todd Shipley is with us, digital cybercrime expert, former Detective Sergeant Reno, 25 years in law enforcement. of surviving a cyber attack,

author of investigating internet crimes. This is your billiwick, the whole UFED, celebrate. What do you think is going on? To me, it's SOP, standard operating procedure. Instead of carding all the families,

laptops, their desktops, their phones, everything out. They just did UFED. That's what I think happened, Todd. Well, I don't think you're incorrect, Nancy. I think what happened is it's who's available to time. So you've got a major crime and somebody could have been on vacation or something like that and they said, who's got access to

and who's trained to use the tool. And so the ICAT guys go, we're here when we can show up. What I think happened though is the reason they focus on the family, if they did at that time was keep in mind things like ring cameras and those other cameras can share the videos to other people. And so they may have been trying to find other evidence on those phones from the family's phones that was shared by the ring camera at the house. So there's a lot of other things that explain why this occurred. It wasn't that there were some of the crime occurring. The family may have had evidence that they wanted to look at. The Uber receipts, all the other things that were going on. They're trying to build a background around what happened. And it's on phones because we've

talked about this many times about how the phones have everything about our lives. And it's going describe the mother too. Okay. You listed, and I've really liked this idea, Todd Shipley, other things. When I think of a UFED celebrate, I think a cell phone, I think of an iPad, a desktop, a laptop. You're saying there are other devices as well that can be factored into the UFED, not just those devices, such as what? So what we're talking about is the apps on the phone, because you can share those apps with other people. And so I can. can share my ring camera app with family, friends, whoever I want to share it with.

And that may have been on the phone. And that's what they're looking for. They're looking for the Uber connections. They're looking for all the apps that were used to build a background about what the mother did beforehand. But how would looking at their devices and their laptops and so forth help them establish what Nancy Guthrie did? Because you can share everything you do. Uber. You do an Uber. I can share it with a family or friend that I did it. I can share the camera itself and let other people see what's happening at my house so I can get the notifications and get information. And that may have been what's on their phones.

It's not something nefarious. It's just that all these things can be shared between phones now and they could have had the images or some other things. Maybe even the pacemaker. I don't know how the pacemaker, this particular one work, but it could have been shared across other other devices so that people knew she was in trouble. Okay. I've got an example to boil down what you just said, and I found like parables that this made more sense to juries. Okay. We have granny cams at our home because of my mother, my 94-year-old mother lives with us. My husband has the app. I have the app. Our children have

the app. So you're saying that, for instance, if the fans, came and did celebrate on me, they could get anything I shared with my children, such as Life 360, Bark. They're on my Uber eats. They're on my Uber. Is that what you're saying? Exactly. And Life 360 is a great example of one of those things that are shared commonly amongst

family to track and identify where people are at, especially a vulnerable senior. That's an important thing to understand where they're at. And so the family wants it to know. So their apps are going to be tracking what's going on with mom. Okay, what if they had a family phone plan? Do you know about those how a group of people? Okay, explain that. Would that be included?

Well, it could potentially. It just depends on the settings that you as the user set up or the owner of that family plan. Now, some of those things, those family plans, you know, share the text message and share all those things. and you can, as the owner of the plan, can go in and see activity, certain activities, depending on what's happening. So those are other technologies that, you know, the law enforcement is going to be looking at to see the behavior before and after the incident. So bottom line, Todd Shipley, if they could, you fed, and I'm using that as a verb, celebrate the family's information, they could then, at the same time,

captured any shared apps that were shared with Nancy Guthrie, correct? Correct. Exactly. That's why the celebrate was there. They were looking at every phone. Got it. And just an example, Todd Shipley, of how important that is the Brian Koeberger, Idaho case. We know that there was a delivery, I think it was a DoorDash, around 4 a.m. 3.30 a.m. 4 a.m. because we saw it on one of the victim's phones. That's how important this is. I'm thinking about how to go old school to find Nancy Guthrie, starting with LPR's license plate readers, red light cams.

Yes, Jeffrey Gentry joining us, forensic certified bloodstain pattern analyst, senior crime scene analyst, death investigator, author of bloodstain pattern analysis, for author of forensic science, applications to death and crime scene, author of death investigations, information to obtain

during a forensic death investigation, it goes on and on. Let's talk old school. We've heard over and over from mainstream media that nobody's door cam could likely catch anything because as the houses in that neighborhood

are set far off the street, and there is a lot of foliage, trees, you name it. That's why people want to live there. You have a seclude. Look at all the, can I see that aerial again? Look at all the trees, the foliage around each home. I see what they're saying, but those streets, Jeff Gentry, have to pour out somewhere. Like the stream to the river, like the river to the sea.

there's an outlet somewhere, and at that outlet, I guarantee you there's a red light. Bam. What about it? I completely agree. At this point, six days into this investigation, if you do not have a suspect and you do not have a solid lead, you can't just sit around and wait. I know we have tons of people working on this. You actually have to go out, like you said, get old school.

You have to rely on traditional police work, and you have to rely on science to solve this crime. This is not your typical criminal. It's not somebody that has made huge mistakes. They probably didn't have their cell phone with them, where they're going to get cell towers. They're not making major mistakes like you see in a lot of crimes of passion. This is obviously planned out.

This is not your typical crime. But you see that they did make mistakes. They took things from the home, like the camera. They made mistakes by leaving bloodstains behind. So when you're talking about forensics and science, you think about every single contact leaves trace. That's one of the foundations of forensic science. Every single contact leaves a trace. So when this person was preparing for this crime, they left forensic evidence. When this person

was traveling to the scene, they left forensic evidence. When they broke into the home, and we're talking about forced entry. A lot of people don't know what forced entry means. It means like a door was either pried open, a window was broken, somebody used some kind of a mechanism to unlock a door. So that's what forced entry means. So they're leaving behind evidence. Looking at the front door, I don't see any fingerprint dust. So what I would do in this case is I would scrap everything, start from scratch, recreate this whole event, try to think about how this criminal got in the home, walk their path. How did they interact with the victim? Walk their path. Did they sit down somewhere? Did they touch things? Did they wash their hands? Did they eat something out of the refrigerator? All of these

contacts inside the home and with the victim can leave trace evidence. It could leave fibers. It could leave fingerprints, it could leave DNA. You can't rule anything out in this case. Even if they've released the scene, they can still go back in and use blood-enhancing chemicals like Blue Star in the dark to see if bloodstains that may have been wiped up or maybe small blood stains that got disturbed during these contacts. You have to think like a criminal in these cases. How did this person get in? How did they exit? The door cam, most of these door cams, you can't just pull them off. They require some kind of special tool to get them off. So was there some kind of a scratch or did they leave a fingerprint behind when they were reaching through the door to remove this camera so it wouldn't see when they're walking her out?

Like we mentioned before, there doesn't really appear to be a struggle at that front door. We know that she was bleeding. We know she's standing there for some period of time. We believe that she was upright and walked away because the nature of the blood stains. But why didn't she fall to the ground? But what was the reason that she left that home without being dragged away or carried away? There's no evidence that she was murdered in the home. So why did she leave?

You have to think about all these things. You can't rely on, you know, assumption at this point. You have to recreate everything and figure out where this person messed up because this criminal did mess up somewhere and they will be caught. One thing I've been wondering and I'm projecting, it's really hard. to pick up my mother, who's very light. She's 94, and move her anywhere without her walker. Very hard. Now, Nancy uses a cane.

Is her cane missing? Did she have a walker that's used at home? Is it missing? Did they take that? If they didn't, I'm wondering if there had to be two people to help her walk, Jeffrey. That's very possible. I think about my own mom when we're looking at this case because she's kind of built the same way. She has thin skin. She would bleed easily. And anytime that my mom has ever been in physical distress or needed help or, you know, when she had a knee surgery, I had to help her throughout the house. It's not easy. Even if somebody's not a very big person walking them throughout the house, they're going to be touching different things. They might fall down. So it's not an easy thing to do. And if you're trying to remove camera, if you're trying to get out to a car quickly to leave the scene, they're going to be touching things.

There's going to be things disturbed. I want to know more about what's inside the house. I would love to know that. And I would love to see the scene. I would love to see the area. I would love to walk around door to door, ask neighbors again. What did you see? Every little piece of information is going to be critical at this point.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Police bringing out devices, bringing out evidence. They're swarming it still. This is from our friends at K-O-L-D. The search was called off for a period of time. Then it resumed. Much has been made about law enforcement releasing the crime scene and then having to come back to the crime scene.

Does anybody on this panel disagree? They released it prematurely. I didn't know what they were thinking when they did that. I think that was a mistake. If you think that you have everything that you need, it's not uncommon to release a crime scene, and it's not uncommon to go back to a crime scene after it's been released.

After you balance ideas off each other, like, for example, I think that they should probably go back in there again and open up drains, take every single device. As I have said, many times, they release a crime scene, and everybody and their little sister

could go over there and poke around. those photos of the blood that was taken by media that's not right no they should not have released that crime scene because now it's been totally compromised you ever tried to try a case when the scene's being compromised

it's hell it's like the golden lottery ticket for the defense to claim oh that wasn't there before it was planted and so forth and so on can we get back to the ransom notes. We all know, by

now, all you legal eagles know that a fake ransom note was delivered by text to Savannah and I think her brother and or her brother and sister. That perp has been found, he's been arrested

and he's going to be prosecuted under federal law and the theory is he used interstate commerce. What does that mean? Anything that crosses state lines has been deemed by our Supreme Court to be use of interstate commerce. Either you're driving across state

lines, that's interstate, and you're using a vehicle and you bought gas. Hey, that's commerce. You may be using the phone. You pay a phone bill? That's commerce. You may text. You may send a telegraph. A telegram. It doesn't matter.

If your communication crosses state lines or any way controlled by the federal government, you have used interstate commerce. Bam. Does that make sense to everybody? No, it doesn't, but it makes sense to the U.S. Supreme Court. So when this guy sent a text across U.S. airwaves to Savannah for a ransom, which is a violation of the law, that's interstate commerce. He has already been booked and he is in jail.

We have also learned Dave Mack that law enforcement has said all the fake ransoms are bogging down the investigation. There's that many. You know, Nancy, this is one of those situations where the media interest, because people are so fascinated by this, mainly because of Savannah Guthrie, but also the fact that there's an 84-year-old woman missing, and it's got people going crazy. So, yeah, the fact that we know there are ransom notes. You know, we've had plenty of missing people cases that we've covered that didn't have ransom notes. But here we have them. So all the crazies have come out of the woodwork. And they're flooding. All the investigators have to take everything seriously. As they said from the very beginning, you know, before they even verified the first ransom notes we heard about. They were like, we are taking every tip, every call seriously. They have to. It's an investigation. And that's what they've been doing.

that's how they were able to get the guy arrested in California so quickly. They've already got him admitting that he sent the fake messages, you know. They had him tied down in a matter of 24 hours, Nancy. So yeah, they're spending a lot of time on everything that comes into them, including fake ransom notes trying to take advantage of a Bitcoin billionaire, you know? You know, I'm thinking about technology, about going old school to solve this case, when we say old school, Todd Shipley, you were reeling off a lot of must-dos. What are they? What must be happening right now? Well, from a technology point of view, what the law enforcement is

anything that can find where there's a record. They're looking at the tower records for all the cell phones in that area. Keep in mind, there's always going to be a lot of records, but this is the middle of the night so they'll be less they're going to get a look at all the flock cameras and any cameras that are reading license plates in and around the area in throughout Tucson because they're trying to find any suspect that's moving at that time at night and so that's going to limit the amount of people moving around so I know they've already looked at all the ring cameras in the neighborhood they're looking at all the records that they could find technology-wise they've gone through her phone trying to

to figure out other things that she's done that could lead up to a precipitate something. Keep in mind, we don't know the contact she's had with other people. One of the things I talk about all the time with seniors and vulnerable people is that if you're not paying attention, they could get sucked into some kind of scam and you don't know it. So they're looking at her phone to find out if she was texting, communicating with, on WhatsApp with somebody talking about Bitcoin or something else and becoming, you know, more conversant with the kinds of contacts she had towards the end there. So there's a huge amount of valuable data they're going to get from the technology.

What about it, Jeffrey Gentry? I'm curious about the motive. Is it really financial at this point? Because you have a person that has obviously put out there that they want money for this crime, but they haven't been in contact with the family since. They haven't been in contact with law enforcement. So I think you have to kind of start thinking about doing. some profiling in this case, trying to figure out who this suspect is and what actually is

their intended motive. And why haven't you heard from them? Why aren't they reaching out? Well, I think the motive is clear. Have I missed something? They said, give me millions in Bitcoin, quote, or else. I think that's the motive, which leads me to, has anybody hit Nancy Guthrie or her family up for money? Is somebody in need, financial need, that they know of? I don't know of. I would be looking at every single person and their husbands and sons that need money. Anybody with a record, they've already been looking at sex predators in the area, but it's not about a sex predator. I'm telling you that right now.

Agree or disagree, Chris McDonough. Yeah, I wouldn't take anything off the table, though, because she's such a low-risk victim here. There is an association between the victim and this offender, and to your point, Nancy, somewhere in this service. of influence and you always do start with the family of course and you work your way out. This offender is familiar because if you look at the victimology of this particular woman here, you know, the offender risk of just arbitrarily showing up at, you know, two o'clock in the morning,

ripping a doorbell off, breaking into a house, you know, taking an 84-year-old woman out of that house and then saying, oh, by the way, I need Bitcoin between two or four million dollars, that tells us a whole bunch about the unsophistication of this particular perpetrator. So that means at some point they have crossed past. If you look at this picture here with her sitting on that chair, look at her left hand. That, to me, when I first saw that photograph, I thought, okay, did she fall going outside onto that porch? because when you look at the blood evidence there,

there's also a piece of the debris over on top of the blood. And those are 90-degree droplets, which the other guests I'm sure would agree with. If you look at the upper left-hand quadrant, there is a debris on top of that blood. So I went back and looked at the news reports where they showed the evidence technicians photographing that. And so does that tell us that the suspect was behind?

her and had kicked that debris on top of that blood. And had she fallen and was trying to get back up, which would create those 90-degree blood droplets there. So I think there's a possibility that you do have to go old school. The technology is going to be a bonus, but somebody knew who Ms. Guthrie was. Let's analyze what he just said about the blood, Jeff Gentry. So he's exactly right. those are 90 degree blood stains indicating that they were created when somebody is standing upright and bleeding.

What I don't see, though, is any evidence that she was on the ground struggling at any point. So if she did fall and was injured in some way, I don't see any, they're called transfer stains, and they look completely different than the 90 degree blood drops or the stains that you see there. And if she was on the ground actively bleeding and trying to support herself, trying to push herself back up, You would see evidence of blood transfer on the ground. You would see contact stains on the wall, maybe where she was trying to reposition herself. He's exactly right that the debris is on top of the blood stains.

So that gives you an element of timing. But I do know that the weather there in that area. I was told that it's rather windy on a regular basis. And so it's not uncommon for things to blow onto the porch. So it's possible that those debris items were. rocks, gravel. I don't see wind blowing rocks or gravel, little pieces of gravel. I don't see that. Maybe a leaf. So what is your analysis about, is he saying debris? It looks like the gravel that was beside the ornamental gravel that was beside the walkway. There's an area, so if you look

two bricks out from the wall, or two tiles out from the wall, there's an area where there's multiple blood drops and then little tiny individual satellite stains. And I talked about this the other day that that's, it's called a blood into blood pattern or a drip pattern. And that's where somebody is stationary and the blood dripping into the blood source or the blood pool creates those little satellite stains. So that's, that's going to indicate that she was standing in that position for some period of time dripping blood onto the ground. So actively dripping blood onto the ground. And then next to that, coming out one tile, you see what looks like possibly a footwear pattern in that. So whoever was assisting her or if she was wearing,

shoes. Hold on. Where do you see a footwear pattern? A third tile out from the wall. There's several drip stains and then what looks like a footwear impression there or a partial footwear impression. Jeffrey Gentry, what do you make of the gravel disruption? That could definitely be somebody walking through it or kicking it or like your other guest said, you know, if she was struggling in some way or maybe even trying to get away, that's definitely possible. that the gravel was disturbed there or whether they were trying to help her up if she fell or if she was injured or trying to resist in any way. But if she was on the ground actively bleeding, you would see different blood patterns to indicate that. I don't see anything that to me would suggest that she was.

You know what it indicates to me? Just go with me for a moment. Pull back out if you don't mind on the picture. I want to see the picture at a greater distance. It looks to me like somebody's walking beside her and maybe trying to hold her. her up and they've gotten into the gravel. The gravel is to our right. It would be her left, holding her maybe under the arm, and she's walking forward and somebody is on her left in that gravel. We know her cane was in the home, so she needs help walking. According to Jeffrey Gentry,

who is a blood spatter analyst, she's upright and walking based on the blood spatter. So we know at least one person, if we're reading this correctly, is helping her out the front door. Are there two people? Another question, let me throw it everyone on the panel. I've gotten a lot of questions on social about her pacemaker. And yes, I had thought about it. I researched it. I spoke to a doctor.

There's no GPS in a pacemaker. That's the way I understand it. So we're not going to find her. Somebody even on Twitter tweeted me the novel idea of putting her phone, which was in the home, onto a dog and letting the dog with a handler go through the area and see if the pacemaker alerted. That would be a very rudimentary experiment. It probably would not work, but the point is, well taken. Is there a way to track.

that pacemaker, does anybody have an idea? Because what I've been told, the answer is no. There's probably not. I've dealt with pacemakers a lot because during the death investigations, you have to remove people's pacemakers to have them analyzed. So the doctor can do it in the office, but once somebody is deceased, obviously you don't take them to a doctor's office. So you remove their pacemaker to have it analyzed. But in her case, it sounds like it's still working and could possibly connect if her device is close enough, but I think it has to be within several feet or a pretty close distance to her and the pacemaker to get any reliable information from it. Well, the other thing is, as I understand it, the pacemaker feeds information

back to, let's say, the doctor's office or the clinic or the pacemaker administrator, but you have to be near the device. The pacemaker doesn't send it out across the airwaves. You've got to be near the device, like her device would be at home or it would be her iPhone. That would count. The pacemaker in no way is able at this juncture to send information about her, whether she's had a heart event or where she is, now that she's away from the Bluetooth at the home. cannot trace her through that. Does a pacemaker continue to work post-mortem? Anybody know?

Yes. Yes. And they're designed, Nancy, to report once a day to the doctor's office typically. I mean, the scheduling could be a variance based on the patient's history. However, they typically have to be near that device, i.e. the phone or an Apple watch. or something to that effect. And of course, now we know at least she was separated from that device around 227 AM or 228 AM. So she could still, that pacemaker could still be functioning and but it's not reporting.

So she very much could be alive. So Todd Shipley, you're telling me license plate readers, cell phone, data dumps. obviously cameras at red lights for those early morning hours when there's less traffic. Any other polygraphs on everybody? And if you're not willing to take a polygraph to hey with you, you're now on the suspect list. Am I missing anything, Shipley? Well, the cameras are going to tell a story, whether it's going to have a complete story, as we know. It's probably not.

But there are going to be a lot of information that they're still trying to go through because you're talking hours of data. And there were cameras in the home, Todd. There were cameras in the home. Hey, I want you to hear this fact. Dave, Mac, tell them about the status of the cameras in the home. What we were told or what has been reported is that cameras inside the home that were there and they were placed at different angles to cover all areas inside the home so that they could be checked on by family members in case Nancy were to fall or become incapacitated. They could then see inside the home.

It has been reported that, yeah, they didn't. paid for the subscription service, and so the cameras didn't record anything other than for eight hours and then it just continued to tape over. So there is nothing saved. By the time the police were involved, you're already gone. Nothing.

And very quickly, Jeffrey, what is the difference in the wide pattern of blood drops and the tight groupings? Is that where you're saying blood into blood? So she's standing in one place? Is that what you're saying? There's drops.

and then there's satellite droplets? That's exactly right. Okay, Chris McDonough, other than canines, and if you'll recall Chris McDonough, a canine tracked Lacey Peterson from her home all the way to the San Francisco Bay, and she was in the back of a boat, we think, right, that far? So if she could be traced that way,

I'm wondering why cadaver dogs can't at least give me a direction in which Nancy went. Well, and that's where the U.S. Customs and Border Patrol canine teams, the Borac team was brought into this, because those dogs are trained not only in tracking, but they may also have other dogs that are cross-drained into the cadaver aspect. So they're going to put those dogs in a 30-foot lead,

and they're going to get some type of sense inside of the house that belong to Nancy, typically a shirt or rag, a shoe, something like that. and then they're going to let the dog run. So the fact that those dogs are there, Nancy, they're really stepping it up because those dogs are really super good at what they do. Let me go straight out to you, Dave Mack. Nancy, earlier today, Tucson TV station, KOLD, received an email having to do with Nancy Guthrie.

The FBI is working to confirm if the note came from the same sender as the first reporter ransom note referencing Nancy Guthrie. And officials caution, it could take some time to verify. due to technical factors. It still hasn't been verified that the first note came from someone who may have taken Nancy from her home. In a statement, the Pima County Sheriff's Department says the FBI and Pima County Sheriff's Department are aware of a new message regarding Nancy Guthrie. Investigators are actively inspecting the information provided in the message for its authenticity. While this is one new piece of information, the FBI and the Pima County Sheriff's

Department are still asking anyone with tips to contact the FBI. at 1-800 call FBI. The FBI continues to offer a reward of up to $50,000 for information leading to the recovery of Nancy Guthrie and or the arrest and conviction of anyone involved in her disappearance. And Nancy, that's not all. Investigators are back at Nancy Guthrie's house. They are closing down the road and they're moving all media out of the area for what they say are investigative purposes. If you know or think you know anything about Ms. Guthrie's, disappearance, please dial. Toll-free, 800-225-5-324. If you wish to remain anonymous,

520882-7463, there's a $50,000 reward, 520882-7463. And please, again, tonight, join us in prayer for the safe return of Nancy Guthrie. Good night, friend.