Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - SAVANNAH GUTHRIE MOM MISSING: DAY 9

Episode Date: February 9, 2026

Will today's ransom deadline be met for the return of Nancy Guthrie? Experts suggest the two ransom notes using separate deadlines show extensive planning and an attempt to control the investigation. As investigators attempt to determine the veracity of the notes, the Guthrie family is forced to treat the notes as real. The replies also share insight into the content of the notes. In their first posted video response, the Guthries asked for "proof of life." The family's third reply no longer seeks this proof and says, "We will pay." Experts suggest that the ransom notes using separate deadlines show extensive planning and an attempt to control the investigation. As investigators attempt to determine the veracity of the notes, the Guthrie family is forced to treat the notes as real. The replies also share insight into the content of the notes. In their first posted video response, the Guthries asked for "proof of life." The most recent reply message no longer seeks this proof and says, "We will pay." Shortly after the release of the Guthrie family video, deputies arrived back on the scene at the home of Nancy Guthrie. In contrast, a significant presence of law enforcement arrives at the home of Annie Guthrie for a late-night search, continuing for hours. This is at least the second time Annie's home has been searched, and law enforcement is not answering questions. The search lasted for more than three hours, ending around 10:30 pm, with officers coming out of the house wearing blue gloves and carrying brown bags. Joining Nancy Grace today:  Matthew Lopez - Criminal Defense Lawyer and Owner of the Largest Criminal Defense Law Firm in Arizona Caryn Stark - Forensic Psychologist, Renowned TV and Radio Trauma Expert and Consultant; Instagram: carynpsych, FB: Caryn Stark Private Practice  Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective (worked over 300 homicides in 25-year career), and Host of YouTube Channel, "The Interview Room"—Trained the First Native American Homicide Task Force Scott Eicher - A Founding Member of the FBI’s Cellular Analysis Survey Team (C.A.S.T), Historical Cellular Analysis Expert; Former FBI Agent of 22 Years, Former Police Officer and Homicide Detective with Norfolk Virginia Police Department (having served 12 years); Currently with Precision Cellular Analysis, Handling Criminal, Defense and Civil Cases Jessica Finn - Senior Investigative Reporter at The U.S. Sun; jessicafinnnyc (X/ IG) @jessicafinn.bsky.social Dave Mack -  Investigative Reporter, 'Crime Stories' See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie, missing day nine. I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Nancy 84 years of every week.

We need to bring after 22 hours. Mama, if you're listening, we need you to come home. Everyone is looking for you, mommy. everywhere. Whoever is out there holding our mother. We want to hear from you. We want to talk to you, and we are waiting for contact. The ration note that was distributed to the media. If a transfer wasn't made, then I think a second demand was the next to me. The search of a septic tank late night photographs inside the daughter's home. More item seized from the roof of Nancy Guthrie's home. And a desperate plea from Savannah

Guthrie. Listen. We received your message and we understand. We beg you now to return our mother to us so that we can celebrate with her. This is the only way we will have peace. This is very valuable to us and we will pay. A lot is unfolding, but I want to analyze Savannah's response with me and All-Star panel to make sense

of what we are learning right now. I want to first go out to Scott Eicher, joining us, formerly with the FBI. He is a founding member of KAST, the cellular analysis survey team, and so much more. Question to you, unlike the last plea made by Savannah with her brother and sister flanking her, she spoke directly to her mother. She did not this time, but I'm holding on to two of the words. When I first heard, her say, um, a earlier,

a celebration. Let's hear it one more time before I go to Scott Eicher. We received your message and we understand. We beg you now to return our mother to us so that we can celebrate with her. This is the only way we will have peace. This is very valuable to us. And we will pay.

trust me, I know Savannah, she can add, but I saw her glance down about halfway through that very, very brief message. She was looking consulting, Scott, directly with her notes. Every word has been chosen carefully, every word. In fact, I noticed in the last address, her last plea, it didn't sound like Savannah speaking, as I know her and as if we all have watched her, you know, on air on the Today Show because she is being directed by the feds. Her wording celebrate. When I heard that, I nearly did a backflip because you think of celebration of life, which means somebody's dead. Their life is over. But she said, we can celebrate with her. I'm holding on to the with word in that message. What strikes you about this message?

Well, first of all, I know that the FBI and the behavioral science unit and all the investigators are helping her find the right words, make sure she's portraying the right meeting to the kidnappers. And I caught that too that celebrate with her. That first hurt me that because I thought, you know, maybe they're already talking about her being deceased. And I don't want that to be the deal with Nancy Goff 3. But the repleting. pleading with her to get at least get some more information, get her back alive or dead, I think is what they want at this point in time. We're at day nine. So they're doing everything they can and they're scripting what they say through the kidnap. You know, she stated very clearly, we will pay. We will pay. Many people are saying, if this is a kidnap, we're on the,

the outside looking in, they clearly think Scott Eicher that it is a kidnap because they're entertaining it, they're speaking to the person, then they're sending these missives to the local stations, and they're willing to pay we've heard $6 million, which is an interesting point that according to what we've gleaned, where again on the outside, the first ransom was for $1 million, then it increased to $6 million. the date for the transfer into a Bitcoin account, which has been verified, has changed. That's very unlike your typical ransom scenario, which in itself is very rare indeed. I definitely agree. In my 22 years as an FBI agent and 12 years as a police officer,

I probably worked three in the Denver metro area of ransom kidnappings. And so they're very unique and very unusual to occur. This is even more unusual that it's a celebrity's mother. And then when they change, you know, the amount figures that give us two dates of deadlines, it's so weird in my mind that I want to believe that it's a notic-ranxic kidnapping, but as we continue to go forward and we get no more information, and they are saying they're going to pay the money, you would think that would end the situation, but it's not.

And maybe it's because she's not alive anymore. I'm choosing to believe she's alive based on Savannah's wording in her most recent plea. Joining me, as I said, an all-star panel to somehow make sense of all the information that's happening right now. To Matthew Matt Lopez, veteran criminal defense attorney, owner of the large, criminal defense law firm in Arizona, this jurisdiction, at Matthew Lopez.com. Matthew, thank you for being with us. Way in. Thank you, Nancy. So I think it's human nature for us to all hold out hope, right? And so if we have a glimmer of hope that our loved one or our mom is still alive, then that's really what we're

going to latch on to. And from the outset, a week ago, there was a hope that this was a kidnapping. And there was a letter leaked to the local station and to TMZ demanding a sum of money in Bitcoin. And of course, as Savannah and her siblings, they're going to think, well, hopefully this is a kidnapping and we can get our mom home, returned home safely. But as the days have progressed, and it's been a week in exactly what the gentleman just said, these are extremely rare. Kidnappings are rare. And why would somebody kidnap a celebrity's mother? That just does not make any sense. There was a no...

Matthew, Matthew. Yes. You had me until you said, why kidnapped a celebrity's mother? For money, they need money. Savannah has money. There's a lot of people with a lot of money. I'm not a rocket scientist, but I could put two and two together and get four. What?

You could, right? But there's a lot of people that have a million dollars. There's a lot of people that have $6 million. And so, you know, if you're playing the numbers and you go to a fluent community and you find an 85-year-old lady, chances are they have a million dollars or six million dollars. Why would you kidnap a very, very famous celebrity where you know it's going to be all over the media? That doesn't make any sense to me. And we have no proof of life.

So the first letter came and went and Ms. Guthrie is saying or Savannah is saying that they'll pay, send us some proof of life and we haven't seen it. So I don't think this is a kidnapping situation. I think this is changing to a murder investigation. Wow. Okay. Matthew, aka Matt Lopez, let me see him, please. Matt, you're right, but I don't want to believe it. I'm not going to believe it until I have to believe it.

I've been pilloried online and beyond because I have not jumped on the vigilante bandwagon claiming that a family member is involved. I don't want a heap more sense. sadness onto Savannah Guthrie and her family. But I'm going to address what you just said. Why her? Why a celebrity? A lot of people may have a million dollars or six million dollars. Think about this, Matt. Someone within her circle that needs money. And she's like a sitting duck. I don't necessarily mean the family. How about that? A cohort of the family? How about a granny nanny, not necessarily the nanny? I got granny nannies

from my mom. I got to go to work. Children go to school. I have to work. I can't leave her alone. You know, she fell in August, broke two of these guys. I can't leave her alone at all. So I love my granny nannies. I've known many, most of them for years. One of them was even a babysitter for the twins when they were little and now she's made an encore performance as a granny nanny. That said, I don't know. Their sons, their husbands, I don't know everything about their family. So I would look at the granny nanny relatives and beyond, believe me, I would be investigating

every single person and their son, because you know this is likely a white male that did it statistically. Ransom's rare, as Iker just pointed out, but when they do happen, it's a freaky white male. Does anybody disagree with that? Karen Stark agree or disagree? You're the shrink. I agree. I definitely agree, Nancy. I feel like... Totally. Yes, exactly. That's something that's... I really have to point out that the reason that they would definitely use somebody, in my opinion, like a famous celebrity, is because they really want to get that attention.

That's not somebody who's hiding. That's somebody who, of course, he's hiding from the police and the public, but who wants to be seen on television writing to TMZ, who wants to be in the newspapers, who's actually excited by the power that this person has, and is enjoying this immensely. There's no empathy going on. You don't have empathy when you're picking an 84-year-old woman

who is vulnerable and sick. You have power and you're feeling control. Wow. Astute as usual. That's Karen Stark, guys. Renowned TV radio trauma expert, consultant, psychologist, and you can find her at Karen Stark.com. That's Karen with a seat.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Matthew, Matt Lopez, so I hear what Karen is saying. I'm not disagreeing with her, but I think more than attention, they want money. And it's someone that knows Mrs. Guthrie and knows her daughter as a celebrity. And it's in that circle. I don't know. It could be the newspaper guy. It could be the mailman, the FedExman.

It could be the Uber Eats. It could be the Uber's awful blackshed. deep son, somebody that knows her. And they knew her really well in that they knew about the camera system, such as it was. They were comfortable in the home for, what did we decide, Jackie, 41 minutes. Will you look at that number again? And here's a great example. John Bonnet Ramsey. Matt, Matt, I'm talking to you. Matt, I wanted to do that since we first started the show. Okay, Matt. Remember John Bonet Ramsey? The perp felt very at home, not at all concerned.

They were going to be detected. They write a three-page ransom note. They go, eh, didn't like it. They write another three-page ransom note. Then they say, you know what? I wanted that $118,000, the exact amount that John Ramsey had just gotten in a bonus. But screw that. I'm just going to kill her and leave her in the basement.

Never concerned that they would be. detected. That tells me a lot. This person was in the home at least 40 minutes, not concerned that they were going to be detected. So they clearly knew she lived alone. Nobody was coming over there. Very interesting, right, Lopez? It is, Nancy, but I think, unfortunately, both could be true. We could have a murder and we could have somebody creating a ruse for a kidnapping. Both of those situations could very well be true. And maybe we have a murder, which hopefully it's not the case because I too really feel for Savannah, especially her being from Arizona, and I watch 12 news all the time, but we could have a murder and then maybe a nefarious

situation where somebody is taking advantage of an opportunity to play this off as a kidnapping and asking for a ransom. Matt, if it was just a murder, just a murder, not that any murder is run of the meal to the victim's families. If this were a murder, they would have murdered her right there in the home. If it was a rape, they would have raped her and killed her. if it was a burglary, they would have taken things, items, money, jewelry, electronics. None of that happened.

I mean, no, that is contrary to all statistics. If this were, as you say, your words not mine, just a murder, they would have left her right there, done. Maybe, right? But maybe they're hiding the evidence. Oh, dear Lord in heaven. You got to remember, people that commit these are not thinking like you or not. people are thinking very differently, right? And to compare this to John Bonnet Ramsey 35 years ago,

approximately, it's way different technology. And so for a person to think that maybe they can get away with creating this Bitcoin account and the Guthrie's wiring $1 to $6 million that the FBI is not going to find them, that's a stretch. I just don't, I don't see that possible. And so maybe both are true. You know, I like what you just said, Matt Lopez, not the part about murder, but so often we see things either or. They don't have to be either or. There can be a lot going on. For instance, you know, let me go to Chris McDonough.

Matt, I don't know if you know Chris McDonough. He is the director of the Cole Case Foundation, former homicide detective in Arizona. He has worked over 300 homicides. I found him on the interview room on U.S. and it was fascinating. That's the, one of the first times, Chris McDonough, I can remember actually watching something for the entire 40 minutes.

It was that good and that informative. I don't mean good as in drama or comical. I mean informative. And I went, I've got to find this guy. And I did. Lucky me. Chris McDonough, I want you to follow up on what Matthew Matt Lopez is saying. What are your thoughts?

Because I believe if this one, you know, as he says, just a murder, then we would have found her body, God help us, in her home, dead. Just a murder. There's not really just a murder, which leads me to all this talk about it's a family member. How about, see, I don't want it to be a family member, so I'm looking for alternatives. How about a cohort of a family member or a son or a brother or a brother or. husband or an ex of a granny nanny or of someone that is in her church. I mean, you know, let's follow. Let's unravel it and follow it through to a logical conclusion. What about it, McDonough?

You know, Nancy, and all the things you're talking about there are reflective. Again, what we would call the victim risk continuum, right? Environment, situation, circumstance are this whole low, medium, or high risk. And in this situation, the whole... You need to slow down, Nellie. Hold on. The victim, what? Risk continuum. And so just think of an L, the letter L.

Over here, you've got environment, situation, circumstance. So what's the environment? She's in her house. What's the situation? She sounds sleep inside of her house, possibly at 2 a.m. And then what's the totality of that circumstance? Well, that totality is she disappears at 84 years old, potentially at 2 in the morning.

So are those low, medium or high risk activities, that she's involved in. They're all on the low side. And so that tells us that there had to be some type of pre-association, what we call it, between the victim and the offender. And so then you stay at the house and you start working a case that way. And in this situation, that's where the authorities first started. But then they kind of, you know, started to work outside of that.

And then the letters come in. So that kind of changed some of the dynamics. But everything in this case points towards an association with that house and that the victim and the house or excuse me, the victim and the suspect at some point cross paths. That's exactly what this is telling us. Wow. Okay. See, guys, I told you there was a reason that I saw him on the interview room and knew he knows what he's talking about. And everybody on the panel, I'm not a school mom.

Jump in. Don't wait for me to call on you. Okay, please. No one will be offended. Jessica Finn is joining us, guys. Jessica Senior Investigator Reporter, the U.S. Sun, they've been breaking knees left and right on this case. Jessica, weigh in.

I want to hear your thoughts. Yeah, I mean, this new ransom note, I think, is particularly interesting. There's no deadline for the new ransom node. There's no proof of life again offered. And I think that there's probably, a little bit of it's pretty disturbing that there's no kind of re-demand. There's no new ransom demand in the specific new ransom note. So it's kind of, you know, the way Savannah's reacting to it, I think has a lot of people speculating about the nature of what is in this ransom note.

What's in this new note, it's not a ransom note because there's no ransom asked in it. One of the things that the local affiliate KOLD has said to CNN in an interview is that when this particular email came through their tip line, their staff was really upset by it. And so I think that that wording, that reaction to the information that was in this potential, this new letter, if this is from her kidnappers, I think it's probably ominous about what that letter contains, that it was particularly upsetting to the local affiliate staff members who saw it. I want to follow up on what you just said. The staff was really, really upset by what was contained in the letter. You also stated Jessica Finn from the U.S.

son that there was no proof of life in the note. How do we know that? That was information that's came through, I believe I want to say it's the news director to in an interview with CNN this weekend. And also you stated no new deadline and no further demand. How do we know that? But that's also information that came directly from the station. We do know that there was the previous letter that the previous letter that went to TMZ and it went to KOLD and it went to K-Gun. That was all, it seems to be the same letter. That letter had a ransom demand. It had the, I believe it was the Thursday deadline and the Monday deadline.

So this new, from what we understand from what the news station has said itself, there was no new deadline for this. There was no new ransom demand with this with this letter. And it appears that this letter specifically also was a reaction to Savannah and her brother, those videos that we had out last week, where they're saying, please, please, you know, you need to reach out to us. We need to know that you have our mother. And it seems like this was like the kidnappers, you know, actual reaction to the family begging for more contact, additional contact.

We received your message. and we understand. We beg you now to return our mother to us so that we can celebrate with her. This is the only way we will have peace. This is very valuable to us, and we will pay.

Her pacemaker disconnected around 228. At 147 a.m., doorbell camera disconnects. At 2.12 a.m., software detects a. person on a camera. We just got that timeline. Is one of the family a suspect? They did identify the blood right there at the entryway as being Nancy's. Why would the door cam disconnect? Five o'clock has come and gone. What is the latest in the search for Nancy Guthrie? This weekend, a lot of activity in the search for Nancy. Let's start with what was on the roof of her home. And why did it take so long for LE law enforcement to go search there? But I will say in their

defense to Scott Eicher, let me give him a formal. Oh, this is for our friends at Fox News. That's from their flight team up in the air. Scott, let me give him his full intro. He's a digital forensics expert. He's the a founding member of the FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team, cast. FBI 22 years, police homicide with Norfolk, Virginia, PD, 12 years. He's worked many, many missing persons cases.

Currently, with precision cellular analysis, he handles criminal cases, defense, and civil cases at PCA, precision cellular analysis, Experts.com. Scott, everyone again is trashing the police. And, okay,

They kind of deserve a little bit of that. I've been angry with them ever since they first released the scene. Then they sequestered it again. Then they released it again. Oh, it's back and forth like a seesaw with these people. But how often do police typically get up on the roof and look for evidence? How about never? So can you really fault them?

I do understand what you're talking about. One of the things that when FBI gets involved is we take help the local law enforcement, get more detail, just flood agents into the area. So we have the time to do the things that they can't do. You got to remember the sheriff's office still has to answer 911 call, still has to do all their normal work. And now they're having to deal with this massive celebrity kidnapping or missing person. One of the things when the FBI comes in to help is that we just give them tons of agents. We give them agents to do searches. We do evidence, We'll help them take a lot of the burden off the case, but they still own the case, and we'll just help them out by them information.

So when we get there the second time, you know, after they release the scene, now it's a very detailed, walk through step by step of that whole property, the whole neighborhood. And maybe the police didn't see that camera the first time. We get on the roof. We get in the septic tanks. We look in the gutters. We look everywhere because we have the time and the experience to do that. What do you make then? Hold on. Let me go to Jessica Finn. Jessica, joining us, U.S. Sun, why were they on the roof and what, if anything, did they find? So on the roof was a camera. We don't know it was a security camera.

We don't know if it was connected. We don't know if it was recording. This was after the cops initially swept the property after she disappeared. The cops had removed from what we know from what we understand so far is that the cops had removed most of the cameras and collected them into evidence. We also have learned since this happened that the doorbell was removed likely by the alleged kidnappers. But on the roof was found another camera that was not initially found by local law enforcement. And the FBI removed that and quickly moved it into evidence. So to you, Dave Mack joining us, Crime Stories, investigative reporter.

I doubt pretty seriously that the kidnapper put a camera up on the roof. So that means it was preexisting. What else does that mean? Was it trained on the front door? Let's see that video from our friends at Fox News. flight team again. Question to you, Dave Mack. You and I've gone over and over the capabilities of the nest in Nancy, E, Elephant, S, Saturn, T,

teamwork, the nest system. If it was part of that same system, it likely was not recording. If it was not part of that system, then we've got something. Yeah, I can't imagine, Nancy, they've given us, they being law enforcement, have given us nothing about the camera. We actually found out about it from a neighbor who was actually watching coverage and saw the overhead shot, an aerial view, and notice that Nancy Guthrie's home, her roof was so clean and white, and they've had rain a lot over the last couple of weeks, and a flat roof like that gets dirty very quickly. Now, I don't know what, how high the camera

was up on the roof in terms of from the roof line up. But you know, a flat roof, Nancy, gives you a clear line of sight. It could have been trained to see out in the driveway, out in the road. You would be able to see anybody approaching the home at any given hour if it was set up separate from the other cameras. And as you mentioned, we've already dealt with the lack of video available based on how they were using the cameras in the home. What do you make of this search, Scott Eicher, of getting something off of that roof? And we've been told it was a solar powered camera. Is that right, Jessica Finn?

Yeah, that's right. That's right. It was a solar powered camera. Interesting because I don't believe any of the other nest equipment is solar powered, which is leading me, Scott, to my query, was the rooftop camera part? of the nest system or something altogether different. And what do you make of finding this? I do think it's a very good find.

It does make sense if there is no electrical area up there that they could do a solar power for that camera. And I have nest and I understand the situation, but I don't understand why it wouldn't be connected to the other nest cameras. As long as it has power and it can connect to Wi-Fi, you have it, you have, you, you, have video from that camera. It's weird that they didn't find that first time. So you do think it was likely connected to nest? I do. Do you have something connected up on your roof? I do. Well, I have it on the second floor of my house looks down my driveway into the street area, but it's higher. But it's

not all the way on the third story of my house. Interesting. Dave Mack, you learned a lot about Nancy Guthrie's, we believe anyway, her nest system and a system. And a subscription is that your understanding the cameras on the inside, which L.E. law enforcement went out of their way to state, they were not destroyed. They were not broken on the inside, which led us to understand that they exist. There are cameras on the inside of her home, but not recording. My point is, if the rooftop camera is part of the Ness system, as Scott Eicher believes, then if they aren't recording, it's not recording. What did you learn, Dave Mack?

We have not learned about whether this camera was associated with the other cameras in the house. But, Nancy, something that you pointed out. It's been referred to as an electronic device. And the solar panel was removed along with it. So if this camera was set up after the fact, maybe this was set up separately and recorded differently. We just don't know because the law enforcement are not giving us information about. about the electronics associated with the home, we're having to put two and two together.

But again, they did remove the solar panel that was attached to the electronic device, the camera on the roof. You know, Dave, Matt, interesting that you said that, that the solar panel was removed because Nest features this possibility. It has this feature of solar powered, but you have to have a compatible third party accessory

to solar power it, And you're telling me that the solar panel was also removed, which means it did have the compatible third-party accessory, correct? Correct. That's absolutely correct. Which means, ergo, Scott Eicher, it may have been recording if it was solar powered and not connected to the nest in her home in that that needed a subscription and they didn't have one. What do you think of that, Scott? Yeah, if it is in fact separate than the NEST system, which we know they didn't have subscription to so they can't get the historical stuff, it's separate. Maybe it's going to record something that's going to be available to law enforcement. But as they should, they're not letting us know all the information they have.

TMZ and KOLD TV Tucson receive an additional ransom note, the content of which has not been shared with the public, but results in Savannah's reply video, speaking directly to the kidnap. indicating something in the most recent notes is changing the way the family is responding. Experts point out the first reply from the family was an emotional plea. The next was a demand for proof of life and now publicly offering to pay. It's strategic telling the kidnappers they are serious. The responses are expertly crafted to keep the line of communication open. We don't have a person of interest yet everyone is under suspicion. The possibilities are so overwhelming.

They don't know if their mother is alive, if she's dead. There was no blood on the interior of the home that they've been able to identify yet. Day nine, where is Nancy Guthrie? Also, in the last hours, the home of daughter Annie Guthrie has been searched. Straight back out to Jessica Finn, joining us with the U.S. son. What do we know? So our reporter on the grounds there has been observing the searches at both Nancy Guthrie and her daughter Annie Guthrie's homes.

And we know that the FBI was there with lights and flashlights searching Annie Guthrie's home, the daughter, over this past weekend over the last couple of days. They were taking brown paper bags of what appears to be collections of evidence out from the home. They were in the garage. They were all over the property. Okay, hold on, hold on, Jessica. Could you start over and slow it down? That's a lot of information.

You've got us all drinking from the fire hydrant. Too much, too fast. Okay, start at the beginning. Yeah. Yeah, so we have our report. on the ground in Arizona who's been observing the local law enforcement and FBI coming and going from both Annie Guthrie's house and her mother Nancy Guthrie's house. And the FBI was at Annie Guthrie's house and they had been thoroughly searching the property. It seems that there was lights going on. There was what appeared to be from the street flashlights inside the house of a thorough search throughout Annie Guthrie's home. There were flashlights seen in the garage all over her. her home property. It wasn't just like, you know, the search wasn't focused on one room. It appeared that at the FBI was going room by room. And at the end of their exhaustive search

of Annie Guthrie's home, they brought out paper bag, what was brown paper bags after the search was completed in what appeared would be evidence. What time of the day or night did the search occur? This was evening. This was an evening search. This was where you would, it was, it was dark enough out that you were able to see that there were flashlights moving in the house. The search was definitely happening throughout the night, and it actually wrapped up around 10.30 at night. Hmm. So a late night search of Annie Guthrie's home, including the FBI.

The law enforcement agents came out with brown paper bags. That's normal. And they were wearing gloves. so it's not to contaminate anything they touch. Matthew Lopez, what do you make of it? Well, you have to remember that Annie and her husband were, I think, the last people to see her alive, right? And she joined them, Ms. Guthrie joined them for dinner on Sunday evening.

Something that's curious to me is all the doorbell and the cameras and everything that's on the house, the hardware on the house, but they haven't released the video of what's going on. Well, where's the video of Annie and her husband dropping, mom off at the house and mom walking to the door, where's that disconnect? Why are we missing that evidence? And that leads me to believe one of two things is true. Either A, they have somebody on camera and they're not releasing it to us or B, they don't have any evidence. They don't have anything on camera. It's released to anybody and they're scraping at the barrel for it.

And if you're scraping out the barrel, then you've got to interview everybody. You've got to investigate everyone and the closest people to Ms. Guthrie were Andy and her husband that evening. Okay, hold on just a moment. Let's analyze what Matthew Lopez just said. Chris McDonough joining me. He is the star of the interview room on YouTube, former homicide detective. Let's look at that overhead video from our friends at Fox's, their flight team. He's saying, and jump in Matt, if I'm wrong, that even if, hold it on that, even if, even if the cameras were disconnected,

if the ring can, the door cam, let me say, it's not a ring, was taken off at the time of the kidnap, then why don't we have video of Mrs. Guthrie, Nancy Guthrie, being brought home that night around 945? Look at this. That's the back door. I'm wondering if we could get an aerial view of the home, does the front door offer a view of the driveway and the garage? The camera on the front would not.

In fact, remember the sheriff said when they got home, she was dropped off at 9.48 p.m. And that there was an activation in the garage door. And the garage door then closed at 9.50 p.m. So about two minutes for Mrs. Guthrie, you know, allegedly to come through the garage, possibly to be in the house. And when we look at the front door camera, the NEST camera, that's a battery operated camera. So even though it's taken off the, and if it's attached to the Wi-Fi or whatever, it's still going to roll.

It's still on because it's not hardwired into that house. And that will probably drop into a server, as Scott knows more than anybody on this panel. And then from there, if you look in the back there where they're taking that camera off, that's focused at the back door. And remember, in one of the ransom notes, allegedly, there was this reported information about the spotlight being disconnected or something to that effect. If you look at the back door there in that drone shot, there's a spotlight hanging down there. And they also recovered that particular right there to the right. This is allegedly the door that was left wide open by the suspect, which makes no sense in any way. shape or form, which is leading me to start thinking about, okay, do we need to leave this house and

go to another's house? And perhaps that's why folks are now pushing over towards Annie's. I don't know what you're saying. Explain. Well, what I mean by that is remember the other day that you fed went into Annie's house. Okay. And as Scott pointed out, this or the defense attorney pointed out, that's the last place she was seen. So that's the last proof of life, potentially. So I think they probably went in that house to see if there's any connection in relationship to a digital

download, you know, to maybe even the guy in L.A. When you're saying that guy in L.A., are you referring to Kaleigh, the guy that's been arrested for a fake ransom hoax? So you're trying to say, is he connected with the, quote, real kidnapper? Well, I'm trying to say, is he connected in some way, shape, or form, you know, to maybe the family in that circle. Remember that circle of influence that we talked about earlier? Yeah, but what does that have to do with anything?

Because it's already been determined that he's a crank. No, we get that. We get that. But how does a crank have both of their phone numbers? Ah, I see what you're saying. That's what they're trying to tie together. So they would go into Annie's house and download any digital information because she was the point of contact from that guy and either eliminate him or put it in the circle. Interesting. Iker, I want you to take that into account as well as the floodlight hanging down and everything digital.

Give me your analysis. Well, you say everything digital, that covers a lot. We talked about the UFED, and that's used to download phones. Other devices are used to download computers. If I remember right, Nancy Guthrie's phone was still at the house, so that's one thing they definitely would have used the UFED for. And we've got so much other digital evidence cameras, neighborhood cameras, house cameras, tower dumps, all that stuff that they're looking at,

and that's a ton of stuff to go through, especially when you're dealing with the power dumps trying to figure out who was in that area at the time that she went missing and the days prior and the days after. Got a question for you. I'm not ruling anything out at all, nothing. But you just heard McDonough talking about

we need to look at another residence that maybe she was never even at that home. That's where I think he's going with that. But wouldn't her phone have been triangulated or look for pings that night to make sure she actually made it back home? That doesn't take a long time, does it? It doesn't. And when you have the victim, that's implied consent. So now you can go right to the phone companies and get their records.

And this is an exigent situation anyway. So you're already asking for records without court orders because we have a phone company. threat to life situation. So getting Nancy Guthrie's records would have been one of the first steps to see where she was, did it match the other family's timeline of information to validate everything and make sure we're on the right track since we started this as a missing person and now we're getting into more of a ransom type situation. Dave Mack, I know you heard what Scott Eicher just said. Clarify.

We know her cell phone was at home because it was found at home. Her cell phone was at the home. If I were truly cynical, I would wonder, did she ever even make it home? But for now, I'm choosing to believe Annie Guthrie, Savannah Guthrie's sister. I think it's too elaborate that she never made it home and that they came in at 2 AM-ish and staged this whole thing. The more elaborate a plan becomes the least likely that's what happened. We know her phone was there.

But do we know she, Nancy Guthrie, was there? No, we do not know that, absolutely. But using our brains, we know that she took an Uber at 532 to Annie's. We know that Tomaso Cioni dropped Nancy off at home at 9.48 p.m. garage door opens. He watched her go into the house. Garage door doors closes 9.50 p.m. The next activity we have is 147 a.m. The doorbell camera disconnected.

We know there was a spike around 2 a.m. on her on Nancy Guthrie's pacemaker. Stop right there. Stop, stop, stop. Stoppy. Right there you got me, Dave Mack. You answered my question. She did go back to that home.

She did. So we don't have to pretend or hypothesize or spin our wheels on. She never made it back to the home because you have to be connected. Your pacemaker, which is in your chest, has to be connected to that home Bluetooth. And it was because there was a spike in the pacemaker in her heart around 2 a.m. And it became disconnected shortly after 2 a.m. Also, her cane was there. If you look in most of the pictures, you'll see her with a cane.

Her cane was there. And there's really uncontroverted evidence that she was there. So everybody that's spinning out this crazy theory that she was never taken home, she was. This is a beloved mother and grandmother. She's 84. She's on med. She's got a heart problem. She's got a pacemaker.

She's 84 years old. Her health, her heart is fragile. Would they know enough to take her pills to keep her alive? In Savannah's most recent plea, I noticed she did not directly address her. mother as she did in the original message, which was excruciating to watch Savannah and her brother and sister's pain. But that pain etched on Savannah's face, just heart-breaking. Well, we've got to bring up the search of the septic tank. To Dave Matt, crime stories investigative reporter, what happened? Law enforcement made a trip over to

Nancy Guthrie's house once again. This time they went into the septic tank area, which there is a fairly large manhole type cover over her septic system. It's dissimilar from what oftentimes we expect to see from a septic tank, but it is fairly common nowadays. And they being law enforcement were seen with the lid to the septic tank open, and And again, about the size of a manhole with a long stick poking it into the septic tank to apparently see what they could find. Guys, the video and photos you were seeing are from our friends at Fox News Flight Team to Matt Lopez joining us. We're now a criminal defense attorney in this jurisdiction. I've dealt with a lot of evidence.

Septic tanks, one of the things I don't like to deal with for all the. the city folk out there, what is a septic tank? When you're out in a rural area such as where Mrs. Guthrie lived, you may not be connected to, as we country folks like to say, city water. That includes city septic. And you'll have a tank, literally a septic tank in your backyard. I noticed a lot of outlets were saying there was a manhole. It's not a manhole in the traditional sense. It's a septic tank. So what evidence were they looking for? They were not looking for a body. I really do not believe that at this juncture. So what could they have been looking for? Lopez, you've dealt with all sorts of evidence. Well, if they weren't looking for the body, they could

be looking. Did the perpetrator flush something down the toilet, right? In which case they could be looking for DNA. I don't know if that would be the case because if you're poking at something with a stick, of course, how are you going to find some DNA evidence with that? My thought would be they were looking for a body. And I know it's obvious or, you know, you say that maybe it's probably not the body. But I think you've just got to check all the boxes. And it was a box being checked. They were looking for a body.

That's a really good point. Just checking the boxes, making sure they did everything possible. You're right. Again, Matthew Lopez. Karen Stark, I want to hear your thoughts tonight. Well, one of the things that I'm thinking about, Nancy, is the perpetrator. And the difference between the two notes. And it seems to me the beginning, this is speculation, of course, and I'm alleging this,

but the guy was, or whoever it was, was looking for the kind of attention I mentioned earlier with the news actually going to TMZ and wanting people to know what's going on and probably following it and being excited and feeling powerful. But when it comes to the second time, I'm thinking that maybe. it became too much and this person or people became felt like they were cornered that there was they started to get frightened instead of puffing out their feathers they began to be scared that said they would be found out or it was getting to be too much and so they are no longer saying anything like your

mother could be alive or is alive or you know if you want her but more like if you want to have anything to do with her, if you want to be ever have her back, instead of acting like they could actually get her back alive. Right. Chris McDonough. Yeah, no, I agree with Doc where, you know, I think it's interesting that Savannah in her last plea said, if you're listening. And she also said, we understand. Now, that's tactical 101 BAU language for trying to create that empathy within the suspect to treat the victim potentially as a real human being.

And the problem that I'm having with that response is she's not getting a response. And that's problematic in of itself, which would go towards the proof of life problem. I agree with Chris. there's a lot of speculation going on here on, is she alive, if she not alive, is this real ransom? I hope it all works out that they, you know, she's alive and they get her back. But I do take from what you've said and what the other panelists have said, it might look like she's not alive anymore.

And they're pleading to get her remains back so they can celebrate her life, have a proper funeral. Jessica Finn, joining us the U.S. son, I'm still holding on to the one word with, with, celebrate with the mom. I am too, Nancy. I mean, when I first heard that final message that was released by Savannah, I really was hoping that that the way she said, we want to celebrate with her.

I was hoping that that meant that they got some sort of proof of life. But now that more information has come out about this latest letter, I'm feeling less hopeful, unfortunately. And just one other thing. I know your expert panelists are amazing. One of them had mentioned that this is most likely somebody in a concentric circle. And one of the things that's just been kind of on my mind over the last several days as I've been following it is that Nancy, everybody, the only people knew that Nancy had this heart medication that was absolutely. important for her to be alive, to stay alive. Basically, when it comes to family members that are really close,

it just makes me wonder they would have known that she needed the medication if they were in it to do this. And Dave Mack. Nancy, I too am looking at that last message, and I was hopeful. Now I'm not. But the one thing they didn't ask for was proof of life. They offered in this message a way that there could be resolution where both parties can feel like they're satisfied in the end.

That's what it seemed to me. We wait as justice unfolds. If you know or think you know anything about Ms. Guthrie's case, please dial toll-free. 800-2-25-5-3-24 repeat. 800, 225, 534, or anonymous tips, 520, 882, 7463, 520 882, 7463. There is a $50,000 dollar reward. We remember an American hero, Trooper Hunter Bennett, Arizona Department of Public Safety, just 28, killed in the line of duty leaving behind. his young wife turned widow.

American hero trooper Hunter Bennett. Nancy Gray signing off. Goodbye, friend.