Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - SAVANNAH GUTHRIE MOTHER MISSING: WEEK 8

Episode Date: April 4, 2026

*TIPLINE: 520-351-4900* Nancy Guthrie, TV host Savannah Guthrie’s 84-year-old mother, now missing 8 weeks.  Her home, according to police, no longer considered a crime scene, having been returned to the family.  Nancy Guthrie was last seen around 9:30 p.m. outside her Tucson home. She was reported missing at noon the next day. Police say scenes at her home indicate "she didn't leave on her own." Nancy Guthrie is 5 feet, 5 inches tall, weighs about 150 pounds, and has brown hair and blue eyes. Workers at the home including home security techs, HVAC and more have been questioned, as the FBI tries to trace any bitcoin movement and track the source of the ransom notes. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie, missing this as roofers, electricians, HVAC workers under the microscope. And tonight, why was Nancy Guthrie's back door propped open? This is a Pima County Sheriff's deputy arrested for kidnap. in the same jurisdiction as Nancy Guthrie is kidnapped? The FBI tonight looking for sat images, satellite images.

Yes, they've been used in the past. Will they emerge as key evidence? Also tonight, a vehicle of interest? Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Why was the back door propped open?

It confirms. the initial reports that entry was initially deemed through the rear of the residence. Yet we know Mrs. Guthrie went out the front door because that was her blood. Straight out today, Matt, Crime Stories, investigative reporter, we are learning that roofers, electricians, HVAC workers are now under the microscope in the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie. What's happening? Well, Nancy, one thing that has been learned is that there were a number of individuals that had legitimate access to Nancy Guthrie's home, in particular. There was an electrician, at least one, maybe more, that was there to replace an electrical panel.

That was a big undertaking and required multiple days and work orders. That was leading up to the day she was kidnapped. We've got HVAC workers that were also reportedly doing service-making. maintenance work on her HVAC system in the home in the weeks leading up to her disappearance on February 1st. These are all legitimate people, reportedly, that were there and are now being tracked back by investigators, each individual person. This reference at 12 News put up Dave Mack. What do you mean they were all legitimate? Do you know who was on the team of roofers working on her house? Do you know they were all

legitimate? Were they day laborers? They got picked up in the parking lot of the grocery store. You don't know that. Why did you say that? I said legitimate because there were legitimate reasons for these people to be there. We don't know who they are. We don't have their names. And, hey, a day laborer could have been picked up to do work that day. We don't know. We just know that there were legitimate work orders in place for the work being done, not the individuals. Dave Mack, Dave Mac, an 84-year-old mother-grandmother is missing. Words matter. Straight out to Brian Fitzgibbens joining us, Director of Operations, USPA, nationwide security. I can't say it enough. He leads a team of investigators around the world, finding and extracting missing people, including extractions from Mexico. Former Marine Iraqi War Vett. Brian, I would expect this is SOP. I would be surprised. surprised if they didn't start, well, not nanos, not nanos, but the FBI, didn't start looking at the

HVACs, the electricians, the roofers, day one. We've heard about landscapers and pool guys, but now we're hearing specifically about HVAC workers. Yeah, exactly. And that search has expanded to anybody doing work inside of Mrs. Guthrie's house and in the, I would say, important to remember, and in the neighboring properties, these are going to be HVAC technicians, electricians, general contractors, any type of repair work being done. The FBI will be meticulously going through those work orders, the dates, the times that those work orders were completed, and then most importantly, who was there on site and who has information about those people and getting an interview with them.

Scott Eicher, founding member of the FBI cellular analysis survey team cast former FBI agent before that, former homicide, Northfoot Virginia, 2012 years now with precision cellular analysis experts. Iker, don't you think the FBI zoomed in the moment they got there and started looking at, well, we know looking at pool guys and looking at landscapers? but now HVAC workers. We also know they looked at electricians, but now we're learning more about roofers and HVAC workers. Why? Well, that's part of the process of when we go out and there's a crime scene, we're going to do a neighborhood campus.

That's not just talking to the neighbors. That's also figuring out who was normally in that area and who was there doing work or who was just visiting family in the area. You don't just narrow it down to people that live there. It's everybody that could have been in that area at the time the crime occurred and prior to the time occurring. So the workers there are definitely people that we, and when I was in the FBI, we'd be tracking down and interviewing and validating their reasons to be there and where they were on the night of the crime. We're just learning tonight that it's not just electricians, not just the pool guy in the landscape.

but specifically roofers and HVAC workers under the microscope. And Susanna Ryan joining us, lab director, forensic DNA analyst at Pure Gold Forensics. She is a consultant at Ryan Forensics, 25 years in the business of DNA and serology. Susanna, thank you for being with us. Day one, you look at them. Day two, you get their DNA. It's not hard. I stood there, warrant in hand, and said, I'm getting your DNA.

Now, I did not perform the test because that would make me a witness at trial, but I stood there and watched it. Watched it on many occasions. I watched you get put in a paper bag, sealed, signature written on it, and taken to the crime lab. How do you do it? How do you get the HVAC worker's DNA in the least intrusive manner possible? It's very simple. It's just what we call a buckle swab. So it's just a swab from the inside of someone's mouth. We're collecting the cheek cells. And so that's a great source of DNA. We don't have to take blood anymore. So it's very simple. Put that swab in, swirl it around, collect it. And like you said, then you have it. Whether you actually have to test it or not, that's going to come down the road when if you start having unknown profiles. But absolutely collect it. I can't tell you the number of cases that I have worked. that it's turned out that, you know, not to disparage construction workers, I'm not saying, you know, these people are bad people in any way, but I have had a lot of cases where it's been a construction

worker, someone that, as Dave Mack said, had legitimate access to the house, but performed a terrible act on a person living there. And that does have me concerned that perhaps one of these people who had this access to the house, then locked the door, put something in it so it didn't close completely because they were planning on coming back later that night to kidnap misggery. So roofers, electricians, HVAC workers, get in line. You're getting a buckle swab. It's really not hard. Just like Susanna Ryan's telling you, it's like a long cue tip. And they just stick it in your mouth and swirl it around. They don't let you do it in a full. forensic buckle swab like you would take your own COVID test by sticking the Q-tip up your nose.

No, they do it to make sure it's an accurate test. Very easy. And the time we've talked about it, we could have done maybe three or four buckle swabs. Now, next, a Pima County Sheriff's deputy arrested for kidnap of a female in this jurisdiction. Dave Mack hit me. Nancy, 22-year old Travis Reynolds is a deputy or former deputy with Pima County and he is accused of transporting a suspect. And during this transporting the suspect to jail, Travis Reynolds commented on her hotness, referring to her as a milf and suggesting that he... Hold on. Please stop. I've never heard it stated quite like that. Dave Mack, did you say the Pima County Sheriff Deputy commented on her hotness, her hotness.

Is that what you said? Yes. Okay, go ahead. He commented on her hotness. That's not a felony. Keep going. And suggested that he could help. No, I'm frankly because of what it suggests, Nancy.

He suggests he could actually help her case if they just popped over to a local hotel. Oh, my star is like he's some bargain? Look at this. Please. Okay, go ahead. Sorry. So once the woman is obviously very uncomfortable in this situation, but Reynolds doesn't let up. They go to the jail and at the jail.

This Pima County Sheriff's deputy at the time sits in the vehicle with the suspect. He doesn't take her inside the jail. The deputy sits in his car in the parking lot with, by the way, surveillance cameras facing the car where they can see them sitting in the car. during this time period of two hours, the suspect watches other suspects being taken for booking into the jail and suggests, hey, let's go in. It's time she's begging. Let take me into jail. Reynolds doesn't. They stay in the vehicle for two hours.

During that time, Reynolds allegedly shows the victim, suspect, videos of male and female having sex. The suspect, or victim rather, believes. Dave, it's called porn. Porn. Yeah, homemade porn. Yeah. Let me guess. Is he the star of the porn? Apparently, yes.

Yeah. Okay. Keep going. Can you wrap it up? Because I don't see any connection. Go, go, go, go. He is charged with kidnapping. The deputy, former deputy, Travis Reynolds now charged to get him. He made her show. He made her show him her breasts before he would let her out of the car. That is exactly what happened. And I did leave it out. I apologize. So once she showed him her breast, the deputy then escorted.

the victim suspect into the jail where she was booked. He was later arrested by Tucson Police because he is in deputy with Pima County, and he is arrested and charged with kidnapping and is being held on $200,000 bond. Okay. I'm going to throw this to Scott Eicher. Iker. I need to see Eicher. Not seeing him.

There he is. What's wrong with men? What is wrong with men? I can tell you that that's kind of sickening and it's abuse of a power of a police officer. I mean, you've already got someone in a position where they can't fight back. And you are suggesting these type of events and stuff like that for some favors. It's sickening in my opinion. I don't see a connection that the MO, Motorsop, Randai Method of Operation, completely different than that.

of Nancy Guthrie, but we still have to look at it. I mean, if he'll try to force himself on one female in this jurisdiction, he may very well. He has not been charged. He's not been named a person of interest in the Nancy Guthrie case. My gut is he's not part of that. So please don't run up to his apartment with pitchforks and torches. Please don't. That said, you still have to look at it.

her? You can't ignore it? I agree that this doesn't look like it's having any connection to the Nancy Guthrie case. Just the fact that they use the term kidnapping, that's going to make the news and it's in Pima County. But I don't see at this point in time any connection to Ms. Guthrie's case. Okay. What about it, Fitz? I agree that, you know, hey, the unfortunate thing here is this is yet again, another negative blow in the media to Pima County that's unrelated to the case, but also will tie up significant resources amongst their leadership, right? Because at the end of the day, Pima County leadership is going to have to react to this. They're going to have to answer questions. They're going to be dealing with lawyers. This is yet again another distraction

against their efforts for finding Mrs. Guthrie. Let me see, Fitz. You know what you just did? You just gave me a night terror. I'll be dreaming about this tonight. Because this fits right in with SOD. Some other dude did it defense. When we finally do catch the perp and it will be a man if not more than one man, they're going to say, hey, look, this Pima County Sheriff, he's a kidnapper right under your nose.

Maybe he did it. That could get one juror to veer off the path into the weeds. See what I'm saying? This is bad. Yeah, that's a great point. And, you know, problems compound in moments like this, where, you know, this piece of information armed, a defense attorney armed with that can point to their reaction to this case. You know, what were the communications? Was this individual ever in Mrs. Guthrie's neighborhood for any reason? And that could just be a major distraction at trial. Thank you, Joe Scott Morgan, for being with us tonight, Forensics Investigator and Professor Forensics at Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott, I want to talk about the evidence outside Nancy Guthrie's front door. We've seen a lot. We've seen the mat, which I know you want to talk about.

We've seen the rocks, the debris, the foliage on top of the mat. I want to talk to you about some Ozark Trail shoes. Ozark Trail shoes. Now, Joe Scott, we know that the backpack was an Ozark Trail backpack from Walmart, but Ozark Trail shoes. I want you to look at the bottom of the tread and compare it to blood found outside Nancy Guthrie's front door. Yeah, you take a look at this image, Nancy, and you begin to think about. about, well, is there any kind of discernible tread pattern that is contained in there? Now, let me preface this by saying that the image that you're seeing with the blood

droplets, that's not coming from the police. That's coming from somebody in the press. Okay. So the quality of that image will be enhanced relative to the pictures that they took as crime scene investigators. So you'll be able to see more fine detail in that. Now, why is this important? It's a. important when you begin to think about that Ozark Trail tread there. And our tread on our shoes is very distinctive to us in the way that we walk. So what they're looking for, first off, is a general categorization of these treads. Is it something that could potentially be looking at the image of the blood? Is there an image that is consistent with a tread pattern on the Ozark tread, on the Ozark

shoes? Now, if that is, in fact, the case, if they are able to get their hands, hands on shoes, like shoes, for instance, they would do a comparison at that moment in time, particularly if they find them with a suspect, Nancy. And what's going to make those particularly identifiable is the wear pattern. How do we wear our shoes? Do we pronate, supernate, or we heel strikers, or we toe strikers? You begin to think about that, and that will come through in that image. Okay, I want to talk to you about the Ozark Trail shoes and we had been looking at various shoes to determine their shoe patterns on the bottom, their treadmarks. This is from a photo I found on X from a guy who talks shit on X. His words,

not mine. Now, we're seeing the bottom of the pattern. I want you to look at the Ozark Trail shoe itself. Here is a side shot of the Ozark Trail men's low hiker boots. Now, let's compare that to the video of the porch guy. Let's look at his shoes. Joe Scott, they actually look more like the Ozark Trail Shoot than they do, for instance, a regular pair of

of Nikes or tennis shoes with stripes down the side or a logo. Yeah, and there's a very distinctive pattern here, Nancy, that let me just, you know, kind of frame this up for you. With the FBI, with their digital folks that are

taking a look at these images, if they trim this out and they focus in on these particular shoes, they'll be able to super enhance these. This video is so good compared to a lot of the stuff I've seen over the years relative to specific types of shoes. They can enhance this image to the point where I think that they could probably come up with branding. You know, and what you're looking for is specific identifiers. If you take a look at the tip of that shoe, you've got the rubber sole that actually rises up to meet the toes, all right? Look at that. And then you look at that kind of striped area that's kind of highlighted.

You can really see it on the heel of this shoe. Well, that's unique to that shoe. And Nancy in Forensic Science, that comes down to something. There's a principle that we have that's referred to as individualization. That means that we're tying specific brands, items, back to a particular person. And so all of those, when you take that total aggregate, there and you you kind of shake it down, you're looking for something that is going to be unique to that individual. Where could he have purchased these shoes? Do they show any kind of wear on them

on the sides at all? And again, through the enhancement, perhaps, the digital enhancement that the FBI is going to render up, that's going to be a very specific identifier for these. And again, going back to branding, we talked about the book bag, we've talked about the shoes. Oh, yeah, by the way, what about the holster as well? Remember, there was talk. that that was potentially purchased through Walmart, either online or maybe at a store itself. So you've got three things here that we're looking at. I want to talk to you also, Joe Scott Morgan, about speculation that blood was found inside Nancy Guthrie's front door. If there was a rug there, like an entrance hall, an entrance area, rug.

a rug that's very, very common. That may have, those blood spots may have escaped detection because it blends in with a rug. How do you go about getting blood spatter, if there is any, from off the rug? Well, you're not going to get it off. It's an excellent question. You're not going to get it off. You don't want to remove it, but what you want to do is test it. Okay.

So what they're going to do first, and this is kind of fascinating, people might be interested in this. If they take that rug, they're going to subject it to alternative light sources back at the state crime lab or with the FBI. And what that means is they're going to utilize things like infrared photography and they're going to see if they can't enhance any kind of stains that might be on that rug. Now, can we definitively say that that stain came about as a result of this event with her? No, we can't necessarily say that. However, the presence of some kind of biological sample there is significant. So what you want to do for...

Joe Scott. Joe Scott, please come out of your ivory tower for just one moment. There's blood on a front porch. If there's blood just on the inside of the door, what do you think? She cut her legs shaving right there. Of course it's connected. Well, it could very well be,

and it could be that she had a spontaneous bloody nose as well, and I think that people would argue that. Put him up. So you're telling me, with blood on the front porch, the night she's kidnapped, you're actually trying to suggest that one day she's walking by her front door and she suddenly has a spontaneous nose bleed. No, it would be connected. You know, just pretend with me. Go out on a limb. It's connected.

It was from the same night. Blood on the outside of the door. Blood on the inside of the door. I'm talking to you about getting blood DNA. spatter, aspirated, I don't know, off the interior rug.

If there is one at the front door and if it was overlooked by Nannos' people when they first went in. Think, think-thanky. It'd still be there on the rug, Joe Scott. That's what I'm saying.

Well, hopefully they did collect it at that moment, Tom, and preserve it. If for no other reason to get it to another lap. Doesn't that go without saying? I mean, it's, way out of my promise to correct a professor of forensics, but of course I hope they got the blood. I'm sorry, I'm like 10 steps ahead of you right now. Of course I hope they got the blood. Let me tell you this. I hope that they got the rug that was going into the house. They didn't know,

did they? They left it out there. No, they didn't. Oh, really? I saw it in the image. I saw it in the image there, Nancy. Now, maybe they came back later and collected it. But they didn't collect it in the moment. And let me tell you one other thing if you like that. didn't. It's probably still sitting there, Joe Scott. That's why I wanted to explore. Well, yeah, I wanted to explore too. And, you know, I'm more than happy to go teach classes for these people because obviously they skipped over the day where we talk about securing and collecting evidence because they didn't in that first pass that they did. Now, I don't know who showed up that 36 hours later. I hope they had the good sense to collect it. I hope they had the good sense to collect everything inside of that door, Nancy, and anything else that's on that surface in that house. Because let me tell you something, the clock is ticking.

It has been ticking now for many, many weeks. And they missed something initially here that is this guy is stomping all over that rug. Putting back up, show the video of him walking up. He's walking up to that. He's putting his feet down there in the Ness camera video that we're looking at, Nancy. You know, that's a pretty significant piece of evidence. Because not only do we have blood deposition, on the surrounding area and you can't see it on that rug, gee, I wonder why, because it's black.

You would have to have some kind of contrast medium to be able to show it up right there. And then I guarantee you dollars to donuts, there's blood deposition on that doormat right there. And God only knows what's inside of the house. Like you said, in the receiving area, if there is a carpeted space in there, if there's a welcome mat, you know, where you wipe your feet and all that sort of thing, or even a runner, you know, you think about that well you can have blood deposition there as well so it draws it draws into question for me from a forensic standpoint is there going to be value here because once you do not secure the scene then all bets are off you're going to have the lawyers that are going to come in and say well anybody

could have come up to that location after this and could have planted anything or it could have been destroyed or it could have been altered this is a train wreck nancy pure and simple Pure and simple when you look at this. You were seeing video earlier from our friends of Fox News, and I want to point out the reason Joe Scott Morgan and I are angry and upset tonight is because we see errors. We see mishandling of the crime scene. We see possibilities that may very well still exist that could give us clues, not just clues, evidence as to who could.

took Nancy Guthrie. And we're going to go down swinging, fighting. When we hit bottom, we'll still be swinging up. That is why Joe Scott and I and everybody on this panel tonight is still fighting, still angry, still searching, still looking for answers. Another idea, Joe Scott Morgan, the back door. Oh, hey, I want you to hear what Savannah said about the blood. Listen, Joe Scott.

She can't wander off. She was in tremendous pain. Her back was very bad. So there was no wander off. And the doors were propped open. Yeah. And there was blood on the front doorstep. And the ring camera had been yanked off.

So Joe Scott, we hear her saying there was blood on the doorstep. That's what they saw that morning. That does not preclude blood on the rug in the entrance hall or blood. and the entrance hall, which they would definitely have stepped on. The PIRP and Mrs. Guthrie would have stepped on the blood on the inside. And maybe Annie, maybe the husband, maybe the police had they not seen it. But it could still actually be there. That was from today, YouTube, by the way.

Okay, Joe Scott, jump in. Yeah, there's any number of places. You think about, let's just say we're talking about a carpet, okay? It's interwoven. So you can actually have blood deposition that actually gets into the weave of the carpet. And again, even with any kind of trace evidence, this is very delicate stuff. You have to be very, very careful about it, where you're trying to pull things out or try to enhance them so that you can examine them. Because there's two types of examination that we're thinking about here.

First off, if there is, in fact, biological data contained within the rug, you have to be able to assess that. And then if there is blood deposition, which means that there is a specific pattern, that has to be assessed. So we're talking about photography and we're talking about biological assessment in the lab, Nancy. From our friends at Fox News, two other quick items. Joe Scott Morgan, one, we know the door was propped open in the back. What evidence can we get from that? Door knob, how is it propped open? Was it propped open with a rock?

Can I get DNA off that? Was it propped open with a chair? Did they move it with their hands? Did they all wear gloves? What can I get from that? Oh my God. You know, I think about the surface of what, you know, when Savannah says it was propped open, all right? That doesn't just mean that it's open. That means that some item, that generally implies that some item was used to facilitate that, right? So I am thinking about things like trace evidence relative to fingerprints. I'm thinking about any kind of deposition relative to potential DNA. If it is a rock, if it's an iron bar, if it's a piece of wood, I don't, I don't know. And also, you think about in addition to that, any kind of trace evidence that might be on the doorknob or on the actual door jam where you're actually opening the door, where you're putting your hands on there to try to get it open. And propped, I wonder if we can put into this world, into this environment, the idea that it could have been pride. All right. Now, they're saying no signs of force entry.

That's something that I'm going to be very curious about was a lot jimmied in any way. We had talked about lock picking some time ago. Did somebody get access to that lock? Or is it commonly unlocked? That's a big question, too, because some people feel secure in their homes. Maybe she left it unlocked. That's from Fox Flight Team. That's a really good point, Joe Scott, because we heard that Mrs. Guthrie sometimes left her back door unlocked.

So there's so many directions to go. Okay, what were you just saying? No, I was just saying that I think that the eyes. idea here is, was there, were there, are there any tool marks on that door whatsoever? Are there any tool marks on the key access area? That, that point where you make contact with, with, with, the key going into the lock. Did anybody pry anything? Was anything pressure? Did somebody put a shoulder into it? Does it open in? Does it open out? Is it something you have to pull? So all of those dynamics come into play. And when you're at a crime scene, Nancy,

this is how your brain has to work as an investigator. You want to consider all possibilities. Another issue, and this goes to Iker. We saw in the Cayul-Rittenhouse case that sat images, satellite images, were used. Actually, they were infrared images. Explain how that helped crack the case and bring out the truth in the written house incident. The problem is you cannot predict when the satellites are going to come over and use and find the video or imagery at the time of the crime is very, very unusual. So actual imagery is not very helpful.

99% of the time, the 1% of the time that there is some sort of satellite or aerial drone or plane doing mapping. That's a possibility that it randomly came over a crime seat at a specific time. But there's so many different things that could cause. you're not to get the imagery like clouds or a storm or something like that you can't the satellites can't see the ground at those specific times let me see iker iker you know what i don't like i don't like anybody telling me why something's impossible i like somebody telling me possibilities yes i know about clouds i'm just a trial lawyer but i know clouds will obstruct an airplane's vision of the earth below

I understand that concept. So tell me how it could work, man. I'm looking for answers here. I'm upset that we're at day 59 and seemingly not any closer to finding Nancy Guthrie. So I'm looking for answers. I don't need to hear why it might not work. Throw me a bone, Eicher. How could it work?

I totally agree with you. We're all frustrated at this situation. And I was explaining that, you know, the FBI. and we always want to look at all the possibilities. We also have to take into the fact that when we go for this type of evidence, we have to be lucky if things actually happen the way we want. Example. Well, then how would I find it?

Tell me how I can get lucky. Okay. How can I find infrared aerial surveillance? How do I find it? What do I do? If it's there, yes, I know it may not be there. Yes, I know it may be cloudy. I get it.

it. But how do I find it? Show me a path to a maybe. A definite maybe. This is exactly like the video from the front porch. Remember the Pima County Sheriff said there's nothing there. You've got to follow those red crumbs and keep pushing to try to find it. So we got the video. So let's go see what aerial satellites or aerial drones or other stuff that were in the area at the time that the crime occurred. So maybe we'll get something there. You don't leave it to chance. You've got to fight for it and continue pushing to get to the end of and get that evidence. Okay, be honest with me. Would the feds consider this? Would they have already thought of this? Yes, they would have. I've done it in my cases. Okay. Back to you, Dave Mack. I want to hear about a vehicle of interest. I'm understanding that it would be a gray SUV or a gray pickup, a silver or gray SUV and or a silver or gray pickup truck. Is this true? And the reason I'm asking, I'm going somewhere with this. I'm going to a secondary crime scene.

That's where I'm going. So tell me what you know about a potential vehicle of interest. Since the beginning of this investigation, the investigators have been trying to identify vehicles of interest. And they've narrowed it down to two specifically, one, a white van, the other, a gray or silver SUV or pickup truck, as you mentioned. So we're looking at two basic types of vehicles that are believed to have been. been possibly in the neighborhood that are unaccounted for, meaning they don't belong to anyone

that lives there or a resident that had a friend in the neighborhood. So we're talking about two vehicles that were in the neighborhood that have been drawn down to by investigators as interest. Now, FBI and Pima County Sheriff's deputies, they searched and towed a gray or silver range rover, If you remember that from the Culver's restaurant about two miles away from the parking lot, two miles away from Nancy Guthrie's home. We saw that. That happened 13 days into the investigation. We've also seen early on investigators were at a Circle K gas station on Oracle Road in Tucson. Again, this is about a mile and a half to two miles from Nancy Guthrie's home where they were investigating a vehicle of interest trying to get video, a surveillance video from the Circle K. These are two ongoing issues and they've narrowed it down to the white van or the gray

slash silver SUV or truck. They seem to be off the white van and now onto the gray or silver truck or SUV. And I guarantee Eicher, they're getting something and it fits in with the vehicle that was towed and other vehicles of interest they've been looking at SUVs, trucks, gray or silver. Question to you. I remember when we were investigating the Tot Mom case, Casey Anthony. It's actually the Kelly

Anthony case. She was the two-year-old murder victim. And I think it was either Target or Walmart could enhance the video of Tot Mom writing a fake check

fraudulently writing a check on a friend's checking account. So well I could practice see her cleavage, which I did not need to see. Why can't the FBI, or can they enhance that video that we keep showing in the hopes that someone will recognize a vehicle? Can they? Are they? Is that what's happening right now? It all depends on the quality of the video initially. And can they slow it down? It depends on the amount of frames per second that that recording

initially has. When you can slow it down, if there's more frames per second, you get more detail. If you have less frames per second, it's very grainy, and that's where you run into some problems. But you know they're working on it.

They hopefully get maybe a download from the company itself and not from the neighborhood, neighbor who provided that video. Suzanne Ryan, joining us, Lab Director, forensic DNA analyst at pure gold forensics. Susanna, I mentioned the reason I'm curious,

the reason I want to find that vehicle is because it represents a secondary crime scene. Explain the significance of finding that secondary crime scene. Well, if we're able to locate that vehicle and we know that Nancy was bleeding, so it's likely we'll be able to find her blood, But what else is going to be in that vehicle is the suspect's DNA. You know, even if they stole this vehicle, for example, it takes a very short amount of time for someone to leave their DNA behind in a vehicle, even if they're trying to avoid that.

You know, I mean, I always think of people shedding DNA like, you know, like Pigpen and Charlie Brown. Like, you're constantly leaving DNA behind. Every time you speak, you're leaving DNA behind. So anything on that vehicle could have perpetrator. Traders DNA, steering wheel, gear shift, you know, any controls or knobs, the door going in and out of the vehicle. So it would be highly probative, you know, very useful to find that vehicle. I think it's great that now we have something to look for.

That was exactly what I was going to say today. Like, what is the vehicle? Do we have anything? I think it should be released because people want to help. If people start seeing, oh, there's a car that hasn't moved for days in this parking lot, then they can leave a tip, and maybe that's the key to solving this case. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The FBI trying to reverse engineer what could be two legitimate ransom notes.

This amid reports that Mrs. Guthrie's home was found immaculate when, her daughter, Annie, came rushing in. What, if anything, does that mean to CSI crime scene investigators? Trust me, it means a lot. And tonight did a dog named Jolene Foil the kidnapper's original plan. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Our dogs are usually sound slivers. A full confession when the dog woke me up to say, I've got to go outside. I was grudgingly accommodating and took the dog out to our little courtyard in the back of our house. And it was unusual.

And it seldom happens. I mean, from the very early moments, Annie and Tommy were saying, this isn't that case that you are used to where someone wanders off, she can't wander off. My mom, her, she was in tremendous pain. Her back was very bad, you know, she was trying to, on a good day, she could walk down to the mailbox and get the mail, but most days not. So there was no wander off. And the doors were hoppedome in. Yeah. And there was blood on the front door stuff. That is from our friends at Today on YouTube, and joining us now, special guest, Jeff Lemmy, Nancy Guthrie's neighbor who passed her often when they were both be out walking in the neighborhood. Jeff Lemay, thank you for joining us again tonight.

We are learning the back door was propped open. Recent reports the home was, quote, immaculate. In other words, Nancy Guthrie kept a perfect home. But yet we see Jeff Lemmy. and I'm sure you've seen it. Let's show it again, the porch guy on the front porch. He is approaching Nancy Guthrie's front door, looking around. He's like, whoopsie, there's a door cam. Let me attack it. He's trying to dislodge it right there. Ultimately, we know Savannah tells us it was dislodged. There he's like, hmm, can't get it off. I'll put foliage over it.

That will work, which makes me question his intelligence. But that said, he's managed to elude authorities now for 60 days. Clearly, the original plan was to take Ms. Guthrie out the back door. It was all propped open. Jeff Lemmy, what is the name of your dog? Jolene, named after the song. By Dolly Parton, of course. So, Jeff, Lemmy, tell me again what happened that night, how unusual it was, and did you have any idea that about four doors down, your dog was very likely foiling a kidnapper's plan to take Nancy Guthrie out the back door?

Our dogs are sound sleeper, so this was really unusual for the dogs to wake us up at that hour. We're horrified. As a community, speaking to neighbors, speaking to people we know here, people just cannot imagine what she went through that evening and how shocking this is and how terrible this is. That night, your dog out of the blue has only happened one other time to your recollection, and that would have been on January the 11th.

Absolutely. That was another night that we were questioned. And when we went through the camera data with the investigators, that's when we discovered it was the other night that where this happened. And as I've noted, it hasn't happened since. So perhaps the animals, the dogs were aware of some activity. As I noted, one of the evenings our cameras went offline that night. We had discussions. with the investigators, whether or not that was a coincidence, whether it was spotty service that we have with sell and what have you here, or it has some meaning. And I hope that all these issues, the dogs, the cameras can add some value to what happened. Mr. Lemay, has it occurred to you that your dog, a dog, barking, foiled the kidnappers' plan. We never, that they had the back door propped wide open. We think maybe, according to one source, by Mrs. Guthrie's own flower pots. That was the plan.

If that door was meant just to go in and get Mrs. Guthrie and go out the front, they wouldn't have propped it open behind them. That was the plan. But your dog barking, I believe, may have foiled their plan and they had to go out the front. So do you know that you've actually been attacked furiously online after you visited with us before? People wondering, wow, how did he happen to bring up that his dogs went crazy on Jan 11 and the early morning hours of Feb 1? You didn't know. You didn't know until the feds asked you to look at your video.

Isn't that right? That's correct. I mean, we didn't, we dismissed this. this may be this, you know, something inconvenient of a dog waking you up in the early hour morning, morning hour, a minute of the evening and just being, going back to bed. And we didn't have that correlation until later on when we were in discussions. You know, people, you know, the reality is that, you know, people can be critical, but the community overall is trying to be supportive. of the investigation, supportive and compassionate about the family that suffered, has suffered incredibly. And we have to put that aside and this move forward and try to be as helpful as we

can. Mr. Lemay, again, about what time was it that Jolene insisted on going outside? So if this is an approximate time, I think it was at 1.40-ish in a.m. was the time that the dogs woke us up and and took us, you know, encouraged me to take her outside. And she noticed activity and was staring towards the direction of the home and processing. Now, of course, Mrs. Guthrie's home? Yeah. And at that hour, I noticed this in the video. My task was to take Jolene outside, have her do her business, so to speak, and then take her back in. At this, didn't notice that. But that was, you know, as we discussed earlier, perhaps this could help with time frame

or awareness of maybe where some activity was taking place. Let's see the timeline, quickly, control room. If I could look at that. 147 a.m., the door cam disconnects. And your dog, Jolene and Jolene's companion, wake you up and take you out around 1.4. What did she do to wake you up? And you said, encourage you to take her out. My dog barks his head off.

What did she do? Jolie is a very affectionate dog. She started to look my face, which is her signal to wake up. And I need you. I need your help. And so she was licking my face and greeting me. And that is a signal to say, I need to go outside. So you take her out around 140 a.m.

And let me be clear. did not realize the only other time to your recollection, she has insisted you take her out, I'm referring to Jolene, was on Jan 11, January 11. Yes. And we haven't had, my wife and I were discussing this, we haven't had that happen since. And this was very, I mean, they're not puppies. You know, this was not typical behavior at all. So question to you, what has your neighborhood been like since Ms. Guthrie went missing?

You know, people are trying to be supportive of the family. I was very moved. A bunch of folks came together and heartfelt people have put flowers and displays in front of the home. And people came together to clean up the displays. You know, people have, are thinking about her, the yellow ribbons that you've seen in the neighborhood. We're saddened. We all saw the interview. You can't help but be moved and heartwere.

broken by the pain that the family suffered and truly, truly want some resolution and some solace to come from this. Have you observed any activity at Mrs. Guthrie's home? You know, there are still a few streamers about, but beyond that, I mean, the neighborhood has settled down. I do see people coming, and I think it's very meaningful. that to them to kind of stand in front of the home and process but it's it's been much quieter but despite it being quieter what about by law enforcement you know there you know i've i've not seen i once again i walk by twice a day with the dogs um i have not seen a lot of activity i know there's security around the house there's been a security system set up a little bit of

media, but I've not seen personally activity, but then again, I'm only walking by twice a day. Did your dog, Jolene, know Mrs. Guthrie? You perhaps by sight. You passed her quite often, right? We saw less of her recently, but early on when we've lived here six years, we would walk by the home, and at that time we would see her out front with her dog at times. So perhaps by sight, And we all know that dogs have incredible sense of smell. So perhaps.

Question. Did she still have her dog? My understanding is that her dog, this is an understanding that someone had expressed to me that in December that perhaps her dog had passed away, but we had not seen her dog recently. That video you saw us from our friends at Fox 5 in Vegas. What's your response to the haters? And how does it make you feel that your dog? Jolene specifically may have thwarted the kidnappers' plan.

You know, I initially I was not going to talk to the media, but someone encouraged me and said that this keeps attention on this case. It keeps awareness of the reward. It keeps awareness of someone perhaps coming forth with information that might be helpful. So there would be a value to doing this. And there are people who are going to be critical. but the reality is perhaps this can add value. And I'm going to dismiss those criticisms and move forward and let's try to be helpful.

Let's try to be supportive. And let's try to move forward and move towards perhaps some resolution, some solace, some progress with this case. Jeff Lemay joining us. He is the owner of Jolene. the dog who may very well have thwarted the kidnappers' original plans that night. Hi there, everybody. I wanted to come on and just share a few thoughts as we enter into another week of this nightmare. Tonight we learned the FBI is trying to reverse engineer what could be two legitimate

ransom notes. We are also learning that the crime scene where Mrs. Guthrie was literally dragged out of her bed, no shoes and PJs, was, quote, immaculate when L.E. Law Enforcement got there and when Annie and her husband got there. Listen. I mean, from the very early moments, you know, Annie and Tommy were saying this isn't, this isn't that case that you are used to where someone wanders off. She can't. can't wander off. My mom, her, she was in tremendous pain. Her back was very bad, you know. She was trying to, on a good day, she could walk down to the mailbox and get the mail, but most days not. And the doors were robbed open. Yeah. And there was blood on the front doorstep. And the ring camera had been yanked off. Yeah. And so we were saying this is. Do something. is not okay. Yeah.

This isn't something is very wrong here. Yeah. From our friends at today on YouTube, as a matter of fact, they thought Annie thought that there had been a medical emergency because the home was not ransacked in any way. Straight out to Bob Krieger joining me out of Arizona, this jurisdiction, former SWAT commander at Pima County Sheriff's Office, 30 years in law enforcement there in Arizona. Bob Krieger, thank you for being with us tonight. I understand why Savannah and Sister Annie thought that they go in.

Everything as we're hearing is pristine and, quote, immaculate. Not what you would expect in a kidnapping scene, right? Not at all. If I were to have walked into that scene, I would have thought to myself, you know, nothing really happened here. And hearing the way it's been described, all of those things, the first thought I would have had as well, probably as a first responder and officer, I've seen this, probably a medical emergency, start reaching out to the paramedics, the local fire agencies, see if they had

any calls to Nancy's house, and then proceed from there. But to hear that it was, there were no signs of a struggle inside or anything like that, even if it were, you know, a medical emergency on her part, you would. see something, something would be knocked over probably. So yeah, that's very surprising to hear that it was immaculate inside. You know, think about it, though, Bob Krieger. She's 84 years old. 84 years old. Without her hearing aids, she can't hear what the purpose saying. She doesn't know what they're saying. I assume that she doesn't have 2020 or 2019 vision. I don't know what she could see was happening, wait being woken up at 2 o'clock.

in the morning. So do you really think, Bob, that she could put up much of a struggle? My mom, who's 94, can barely stand up. I have to hold her to get her from the love seat to the wheelchair or the walker. And it's a good day that she can walk from her room through the kitchen, back to the twins' rooms. That's a good day. So how much of a fight do you really think Nancy Guthrie could put up. Not much of a fight at all, if any, everything that you hit on. You know, if she were in that state, you know, even if she were to have fallen over or slip, you would think there would be some signs of something in disarray, trying to carry a 150-pound woman

holding her up, doing however you're trying to get her from point A to point B, something is going to get bumped, something's going to get knocked, a vase is going to get knocked over. You're going to see something, and that's what the investigators are looking for, as far as signs of a struggle go. It doesn't necessarily mean there's a fight going on, but she is not moving easily. And imagine how scared someone's going to be in that instance. They're not going to just go with you,

but they're going to be pulled and pushed and all of those things are happening. So you would expect to see something out of places somewhere. And again, Bob Krieger, former SWAT commander there in Pima County, 30 years. For all I know, she may have had on a second pair of hearing aids. She may have had on her glasses.

But even if, even if she did, she couldn't put up a fight, she couldn't even walk to the mailbox. So I don't know why everybody's acting like, oh, there was no struggle. She couldn't struggle. Are they that surprised that she kept her home as neat as a pen? The perp went in, got her, and went out. You said you found it unusual. I don't find it unusual at all.

When my mom lived at home, her home was immaculate. Perfect. At all time, she wouldn't go to bed if there was a dish in the sink. So why is everyone so surprised that the home was immaculate, including you, Krieger, why? Because if someone comes into your house and you're not expecting them, my house is fairly immaculate as well. And there's going to be something that's going to be out of place. It's just you're not going to acquiesce to their demands.

I don't care how old you're going to use every ounce of energy you have to fight that person off. And something's probably going to get, get, you. Bob, how tall are you? I'm 6'1. How much do you weigh? About 205 pounds. And I bet you work out, right? Regularly, yes.

Mm-hmm. I bet you could put up a fight. She couldn't. If somebody tried to drag you out of your bed at 2 a.m., H-E-W-L-Y-E-S, the place would be torn apart. But again, you keep talking about putting up a fight. Didn't you just agree with me? Nancy Guthrie cannot put up a fight.

They picked on an L-O-L, a little old lady. She can barely walk. There's not evidence of a fight. I don't know why. Why are you saying that there would be evidence of a fight? Just answer me succinctly. There's not evidence of a fight, evidence of something happening, movement, something knocked over. I don't care.

If you're alive, you're going to fight somewhat. You're going to push something, knock something over. Not saying a knock down, drag out fight, but there's going to be signs of something happening in there that's unusual. That the family who has been in that house. You mean like maybe blood on the doorstep and the door propped open in the back? maybe something like that? Would that qualify in your mind of evidence that something went wrong? Yes, things such as that. Something simple, something subtle that might not stick out to the normal person,

but to Annie, when the family gets there and they're walking through, they're saying, that's not right, that's out of place. Not say that the house would have been ransacked, drawers pulled out, things like that. Okay. Now you and I are on the same page. I get it. And the last thing I want to do is, take on a former SWAT commander from Pima County, I want to agree with you. But at this juncture, when I hear claims thrown out that contradict the fact that she was kidnapped, I don't like it because there is no other solution. There is no other answer right now. This was not a burglary gone wrong. This was not a theft. They didn't come in to steal and go, oh, you know what? taking the money. I'm just going to take the 84-year-old grandma. That didn't happen. Dave Mack,

joining us, Crime Stories investigative reporter. What is the significance of these claims that the home was immaculate? Why is everyone going cray over that? Because, of course, her home's immaculate. Yeah, it makes sense to me. But, you know, Nancy, I'm a little confused over initial reports that said other things, that there were things out of place. They knew something. law enforcement said they knew something happened right away and immediately called in homicide detectives. So immaculate, I guess that means furniture is in its proper place. There's no dirt on the floor that they can see. I'm still trying to figure out exactly what they mean by immaculate.

Most homes I've been into that have an elderly person, they are immaculate. Everything's where it belongs. Everything is in its proper place. but you're talking about getting an 84-year-old woman out of that house, Nancy? I agree with you 100%. She's not going to be easily taken out of the house because she doesn't move well. It's going to require a lot. It's going to require at least two people to get her out of the house.

And if you doubt, I don't see how things can't be bummed. So I'm a little confused over this idea. I don't understand why you're saying you're confused. What's confusing you? I'm not confused at all. Okay. I'm thinking if I was to help take someone out of a home that is not able to move on their own, I would be bumping into stuff.

If I don't know the layout, I would be knocking things over. It just seems obvious to me. And by the way, if I'm kidnapping somebody, I'm not going back to pick it up. The back door being open, that does not seem immaculate to me. The back door open indicates it's not immaculate. So I'm just, that's where I'm confused, Nancy. I don't get the idea that they got an 80s. four-year-old woman out of the house without messing something up.

Well, I can tell you this, Dave Mack, having had my mom live with us now almost 11 years, I don't knock the furniture over when I get her out on her walker. And I have to carry her, to put her on the walker and push her out because you don't want to be in a wheelchair. She'd rather me pull her on her walker. But I don't knock over the furniture. I'm very curious why you think that would have to happen. It doesn't. To what? I want to hear this.

You know what you're doing. It's your mother. You're being careful with her. You know the layout. You know where the chairs are. You know where everything is, Nancy. You put it there. You can see where the chairs are. I don't need to know. I don't need to see a floor plan to see a chair. Sure. I'm just saying somebody who's in there to take a woman. I've got you all tied up in knots. I'm going to let you untie them yourself. to Brian Fitzgibbon's joining us, Director Operations, USPA nationwide security, leading a team of investigators around the world finding and extracting missing people, former Marine Iraqi War vet. I don't think you need to trash the place or turn over the furniture to get an 84-year-old grandma out of the home, especially if there are two able-bodied young men, like the one we see. see on her front step? You don't have to flip over the lamps and tear the pictures down off the wall. Hey, let's see the inside of Nancy Guthrie's home from that Today Show clip. This is from, this is when Savannah came home and they did a special segment. Okay, what is there to turn over? I don't get

what anybody is talking about. There is a bedside table with the lamp. There's plenty of of space coming around. I think she sleeps on the left side of the bed because there is her little diggy clock right there. So I don't get it, Fitzgibbon's. Of course, the place is going to be

immaculate. And by the way, she does have rugs on her floor, which is a whole other can of worms for our expert, our DNA expert, to talk about. We were wondering last night if she had a rug in her entrance hall. We know she's got

rugs. I'll circle back with Tammy Ballard on that. But I don't have to turn over the furniture to get a 94-year-old woman onto a walker and out of the house. I don't get it. But hey, my mind is open. What clue does this give me, Fitzgibbitts? I think with this new information, with the home being immaculate, the doors propped open, you know, here for me, obviously it's not going to be difficult for two able-bodied men to move an 84-year-old woman without knocking things over. But what it calls into question is the timeline that Sheriff Nanos published that gives these perpetrators roughly 40-some-odd minutes inside the house. So, you know, this new information makes me question, are there problems with that timeline?

We are also learning that the back door may have been, propped open with flower pots. I don't know if that's credible, but we do know the door was propped open with something. If that's true, if that's true that flower pots were used, it tells me that was not the original plan, that the kidnappers found what was available and they used it in order to prop the door open. Let's think about, for instance, let's go to Scott Eicher on this. Forensics expert founding member FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team 12 years, Northfoot Virginia PD, homicide, now precision, cellular analysis. Scott, thank you for being with us. Think about it. Compare Brian Coburger.

He came with a K-Barr-knife that he ordered on Amazon. He came dressed. enclosed to conceal his identity. He was prepared. He did not need to use a flower pot to open and prop open a door. So what does this tell you about the purpose if, in fact, that report is true? Well, I think there are several different reasons why they might prop open the door. One is they're trying to get Nancy out. We've just discussed how hard it would be to move an 84-year-old lady that can't walk on herself by herself. So having two gentlemen or two kidnappers grabbing her by the arms or underneath her arms to try to get her out the door, it's much easier to prop open a door to get her out

that way. Now, is- I'm talking to you about the use of flower pots. I understand that. But if you're doing that, you want to prop up in the door with whatever is nearby. which makes sense, you know, if it's a back door, you've just got a lot of flower pots in the backyard there. Just move one over to prop that door open

so you're not messing with the door as you're trying to get her out. Bob Krieger, what does it tell you if, in fact, this report is true that flower pots were used to prop the door open? It tells me the pert wasn't prepared and didn't plan for it. I actually think the opposite of that, Nancy. I think they were planned for it. And propping it open is just a way of keeping it open. But I think if this is true, the initial plan was they were going to walk her out the back door

around the back gate that was propped open as well and into a car. Something happened to change that plan. And that's probably why they went out the front door where you find the blood. I know from my experience, whenever we would do a swap warrant, we'd go into a house. You always want to have a plan of egress. You want to know exactly how you're leaving that house. So they went in one door. You want to go out that same door.

Get in, get out as quick as you can. Something probably happened. They went to whatever their plan B was. And then they went out the front door probably. That would be my estimation as to why that back door was open, and propped open like that. I wanted to come on and it's been two weeks since our mom was taken. And I just wanted to come on and say that,

we still have hope and we still believe to whoever has her or knows where she is. It's never too late. And you're not lost or alone. And it is never too late to do the right thing. And we are here. Straight out to a special guest joining us tonight is Tammy Ballard. consultant, specialist investigation in reconstruction, and former DNA criminalist at the San Diego PD. Tammy Ballard, thank you for being with us. With all of the discussion of the immaculate nature of the inside of the home, wouldn't that

make it that much more easy to get those electrostatic prints off the floor? Well, Nancy, if the house had been completely. locked down from the moment that this incident occurs, that is quite a good potential. However, this sounds like this whole entire scene was family members coming in, law enforcement, investigators coming into the home. So there's been a lot of traffic in that house, which would mean that you would have had to have the foresight to lock that scene down to be able to look for something like a footwear impression and knowing that you wanted to collect something with an electrostatic lift. So, again, this would have needed to be something that was thought about from the beginning before everybody trafficked through this home.

Let's just pretend that Nanos directed everyone to be careful in the home and keep it pristine. the fact that we're hearing it was quote immaculate. Wouldn't that help? We see the porch guy coming right up off that gravel walk. If that was on his shoes, is there a chance of the static lift? Yes, there is a chance. So there's two sides to this.

First, you have somebody who's coming in from the outside with potential dirt, mud maybe on their shoes. So you're looking for something that they're leaving behind, but then you're also looking for the voids, what's missing, which is what actually would be more inclined to do something with an electrostatic lift. So if he traffics something in where you have mud, dirt, if he steps through any blood that's on the interior of the residence, then you have those visible footwear impressions, but you also have the opposite of having to look for something that may not be visible

to the naked eye, which was the potential for that electrostatic lift. to assist on that. And they do know that Pima County and the local law enforcement does have that in their wheelhouse to potentially have approached that scene with that technology. Bob Krieger, if it was on their radar, you're the former SWAT commander there in Pima County. If they understood the technology behind electrostatic lifts, certainly they would not have destroyed the scene. Agree or disagree? And do you believe, with your knowledge of Pima County, Sheriff's Department, would they have preserved the flower pots we've been talking about if, in fact, that's true to try to get prints or DNA off of them?

I would agree with that. One key to a scene, especially once it starts going down the more suspicious line, you want to preserve everything. So whether it's a homicide or a missing person or a kidnapping, one way in, one way out. You set that up as the first deputy unseen to preserve all that evidence. All of these things should have been done, especially once it hit the suspicious nature. If the flower pots were used to prop a door open, they absolutely better have been taken as evidence. They should not have been left behind.

They should be taken. They should be in the evidence location right now. You'll be able to get any potential DNA off of that. Who knows how they might have just used their foot. But that's something that's vital to the investigation. You don't want to leave that behind. Woulda, coulda, shoulda, Bob Krieger. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

I know they should have, but do you believe that they did? I hope that they did. Not knowing, a rookie cop would have taken those. That's all I can really say about it. And if they didn't, that was a failure in the investigation as well. Tell me, Ballard, if, if, and that's a big if, they did take them, how hard would it be to get prints off the flower pots? Maybe even DNA, by the way, he keeps putting that bite light into his mouth. Yeah, I would absolutely be looking for both.

So, and I hope that they would do that as well. And, you know, I've seen a lot of scenes and I've seen a lot of investigations. Unfortunately, things do get left behind, but this has been highlighted in even the media, as you know. So these items could be collected at any time at this point. So hopefully, if they weren't initially collected, they're collected now. And they should be examined. I did have people follow up after the last time I was on your show. That's the best part about the forensics community. Everybody's like, hey, I did get DNA off of foliage. I did get DNA off of this, which is great. So maybe you'll help solve this, Nancy. I can only pray.

You know, earlier we were discussing reverse engineering that we believe that we're being told the FBI is trying to reverse engineer the ransom notes tonight. As we're speaking, that is in the process. Scott Eicherer joining us, former member of the FBI's cast team. What goes into reverse engineering? What is that? This would be handled by our behavioral analysis unit, and these are experts in the field of analyzing words and individuals' behaviors. So they would take those notes, whatever form they came in, they would examine the language, the tone, the words they were used, the handwriting if it came in in that fashion. They would also be working with the family and with the investigators to try to figure out,

all right, is this a legitimate ransom note? Is it fake? We've ran into this before in this case. So they'd be working very hard. So that's all that re-engineering or reverse engineering the ransom note, trying to figure out what type of person and hopefully narrow down who the suspect is. Well, Brian Fitzgibbon, Savannah stated that she believed. Two of the ransom notes of the many notes that have come in from vultures,

she believes two of them were real. So do you agree or disagree with Iker? We understand the FBI is trying to reverse engineer them now. What does that mean to you? Do you believe it? Yeah, I think it adds credibility that at least two of the ransom notes are considered to be authentic or, you know, there's a high confidence in their authenticity. And the question remains which of those notes,

which media outlets were they sent to or were they sent directly to the family? That we don't know. But all of these things in totality, the FBI's dissecting these leads credibility that they do believe that these notes were authentic. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Are the feds closing in on blockchain analysis of the Bitcoin demand? That's right. The ransom notes, two of them, Savannah Guthrie, believes are, quote, real.

Is that the highest and best evidence leading police to Nancy Guthrie's kidnapper? And tonight, we learn evidence in the garage. was it totally missed by Nanos. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. How much of a fight do you really think Nancy Guthrie could put up?

Not much of a fight at all. If any, even if it were, you know, a medical emergency at her part, you would see something. Something would be knocked over probably. So, yeah, it's very surprising to hear that it was back on the side. Not what you would expect. in a kidnapping scene, right? We learn that two of the multiple ransom notes and all of the bizarre communications may be real. The two notes that we received that we responded to, I tend to believe those are real.

That from our friends today on YouTube, Savannah tells us that she believes two of the ransom notes were real. Now, what was in the ransom notes? We received an alleged ransom note that we forwarded on to the authorities, to the sheriff's department. The FBI called us a few hours later, wanted to have a bunch of questions about that note. There are deadlines, I say plural deadlines in this letter, and one is looming. Right. if this is indeed a legit letter. This man sent us an email saying that he will reveal the name if he gets one Bitcoin.

We checked the account all day. He did not receive anything. The account is bare. That's our friend Harvey 11 over at TMZ. If you will recall, at least two notes, ransom notes, went directly to TMZ and two other local TV outlets. straight out to a special guest joining us. Ari Redboard, he is the global head of policy and government affairs at TRM Labs. It's the blockchain intelligence company, former assistant U.S. attorney in D.C., former senior

advisor to the Undersecretary of Terrorism and Financial Intelligence. You can find him at TRM Labs.com. Ari, thank you for being with us. Many people believe that Bitcoin cannot be traced. And tonight we are learning. The FBI believes that's their best lead on who took Ms. Guthrie. Now, I think it's the video of the porch guy and the video of cars racing by, which is also in your wheelhouse, digital evidence.

But let's address the ransom notes. And the possibility, since everybody went radio, silent on it of tracing this Bitcoin request? No, it's a great question. Look, and any time, first of all, thank you for having me on, Nancy. Look, any time that there's a cryptocurrency address involved in a case, it's an immediate lead. And what most people don't understand about cryptocurrency is every transaction occurs

on a public blockchain, particularly Bitcoin, which is public, meaning every transaction is traceable, trackable, and immutable. In other words, it's there forever. In other words, crypto is the ultimate crime scene. You can go back in time. You know, what transactions have occurred prior to this day involving this cryptocurrency address? Has this address sent funds? Has it received funds?

And ultimately, you track and trace those funds across blockchains using tools like TRM. Okay. You do know that you're speaking to a trial lawyer. You need to explain what you're saying when you're referring to blockchain. analysis, Bitcoin transactions. If you look at them in the U.S. anyway, they are recorded. It's almost like a Google dot where everybody's adding stuff in. And they are in blocks. It looks like blocks where each entry is made. Think of a spreadsheet and blocks of information. Okay. We typically write in paragraphs. It looks like a block. And then you follow the chain.

That's where they get the phraseology block chain analysis. Now, slow it down, Erie, and explain again very slowly how the feds can do this. And this is what they're doing right now, according to reports. So what we do at TRM is we take that raw blockchain data that you're describing, that alpha-numeric address, say, for example, that would be in a ransom note. And we layer it with threat intelligence. We have a team of threat hunter. Okay, Eric, right there, right there.

You mean like the number at the bottom of your check. That. Every Bitcoin account has an identifiable number. Like we have a social security number. It's got an identifiable number like a checking account. Is that right? That is correct. It's a string.

Dummy down, man. Dummy down for me. Now, start over, please. Absolutely. Yeah. So look, every cryptocurrency address is a unique string of letters and numbers. And what we do is we associate those numbers with threat actors. Think terrorist financiers, sanctioned, ransomware actors.

And that allows law enforcement to track and trace the flow of funds to build investigation, prosecutions, to ultimately seize back those illicit proceeds. There has been a high level of success by the feds, by the FBI, by the IRS. You know, they're about three inches up everybody's tailpipe on Bitcoin. Every transaction is recorded on a block chain. As Airy just said, Bitcoin wallets have an address, and they can be watched by law enforcement. Then the tricky time is when the perp tries to cash it in. But right now, we're not at that point because I don't believe that ransom was ever paid.

Straight out to Chris McDonough joining us, veteran homicide detective over three, homicides under his belt. He is the star of the interview room on YouTube. And he also is the director of the Cole Case Foundation. Chris, thank you for being with us. You immediately flagged a lot of problems with the ransom note. That doesn't mean it's not legitimate. Explain.

Well, the ransom notes, in of itself, gives us a little insight into the behavioral aspects of what the suspect may be, you know, trying to pull off here. And if you think about it, just what Ari said there, you know, to use Bitcoin as a, you know, a hook into the victim, well, automatically, that's just like saying, hey, I'm over here, come get me. Now, there are some sophistications, obviously, that are out of my league that Eric could talk about.

But it just doesn't make sense that immediately this Bitcoin becomes, you know, the talking point here, for this case. And we have that with that guy in Hawthorne, California, who was arrested, Derek Corolla. So it's a red flag, in my opinion. Well, I don't think them asking for Bitcoin was the red flag. If you will recall, Savannah Guthrie took it seriously enough to say, I will pay. We received your message, and we understand.

We beg you now to return our mother to us. so that we can celebrate with her. This is the only way we will have peace. This is very valuable to us, and we will pay. Ari Redboard, joining us from TRM Labs. Erie, first of all, there was a delay in the demand for money, Bitcoin. That's a problem. Every kidnapping for ransom, you hear immediately, give me money, and you get proof of life.

Number one, there was a delay. number two, from what we understand, there was never proof of life. Number three, going through a news outlet as opposed to directly to the family, that's also unusual, but not unheard of that you don't go directly to the family. Those three red flags were a problem. That doesn't mean Savannah's wrong. I think she, of all of us, knows what's going on in the investigation. So tell me tonight, right now, Erie,

who would be on the team tracing the Bitcoin address. In other words, tracing the ransomer. That's why I care about the Bitcoin address because that's going to lead me to the perp. Who's doing it? What kind of people are on this team, this FBI Bitcoin team? It's a great question. It's called a virtual asset unit within the FBI.

And there's a team of crypto-tracers, and they're the best in the world. They've built investigations involving ransomware and North Korea hacks and terrorist financing. And what they're doing is they're using TRM to track and trace the flow of funds to ultimately identify that individual. The problem is, and you mentioned this, is that it really needs a payment, a transaction must occur in order to start that tracing and tracking. Because ultimately what you want at the end of the day are those funds to be cashed out at a cryptocurrency exchange.

Because when they hit that exchange, that's when you can get that underlying user information, who owns that account. because that exchange would have done the know-your-customer, right? When you open that account on a crypto exchange, it's like opening a bank account. And that's when you can really connect the dots. So crypto tracing is very powerful, but you have to have the movement of funds in order to really build an investigation. Ari Redboard, a lot of people that aren't in our business think that solving a case is like in a movie or on TV. It's all chasing people down a dark alley and pulling a gun and saying, freeze!

It's not like that. Right now, there is at least one team chasing down this Bitcoin address. At least one team. You've got another set of two teams, one in Quantico and one on the ground there in Tucson, looking for digital evidence, which is another one of your specialties. There are multiple teams. Some are looking at the images. Some are trying to find a. license plate. Some are working on fingerprints. Some are working on like the cellular analysis survey team within the FBI or working on any cell phone, any nav system, any powered up iPad traveling in that neighborhood at that time. Not just Jan 31, but also all the way back to Jan 11 and Feb 1. They're looking. They're looking. They're looking. They're looking. But on this, Savannah says she thinks the two ransom notes were real.

Accept that as a given. Let's don't debate that anymore. How can we connect the Bitcoin account to the PIRP? Now, you mentioned people that would be on the Bitcoin analysis team, the crypto chasers. What are they hackers? What did they get their PhD at Harvard in crypto chasing? Who are they? What kind of people would be able to do this? These are FBI agents, and this is true across the federal government, IRS, criminal investigation, Homeland Security, DEA, Secret Service. There are these cadre of crypto tracers who have access to tools like TRM and the training to really do this work. So they're in a tool. They go to an address and ultimately they're trying to understand what funds have gone into that address. Where is that address sending funds?

but the real key, and I keep coming back to this, is you have to have funds ultimately go to a cryptocurrency exchange or some other off-ramp because the reality is most people can't buy stuff with crypto today. So you still need to cash out. And that cash-out point is the key. The problem here, and you identified it is I think there's an open question about whether a payment has ultimately been made and whether those funds are moving. And without funds moving, the best crypto tracers in the world at the FBI and beyond aren't really able to do much with a cryptocurrency address. So do you have to input info to get a Bitcoin address? Like, here's a simple comparison.

When you create an email, you have to give a little information to get a new email, like your old email or your phone or your something. So what information do you have to input in order to get that Bitcoin account, if any? You don't. And the reason for that is Bitcoin, unlike your bank or unlike other financial institutions, is decentralized. But what is centralized are those cryptocurrency exchanges. So if you set up an account at a cryptocurrency exchange, that's when you have to provide that underlying name, address, social security number, email. And that's when law enforcement really gets their leads from a crypto address. When those funds go to a cryptocurrency exchange, and that's when you send your subpoena to that exchange. asking for that underlying user information?

And did they use a Gmail account, for example, to open up that account? Then all of a sudden, you can send a subpoena or a search warrant to Google to get those Gmail records. Do you have a cell phone provider that was used here? Can you triangulate location based on cell tower data? So a Bitcoin address, when the funds are ultimately moving, is a great investigative lead. But that's when law enforcement uses all those other tools that they have in their toolbox. What I was saying earlier, Erie, is that people expect this high action scenario to play out.

It's not always like that. I can remember so many nights sitting in the floor of my office, first as a Fed and then as a felony prosecutor at intercity Atlanta, with stacks and stacks of papers in front of me, just stacks and stacks, wading through them, marshalling the evidence, much as we do tonight. So it's not always a high-speed chase with cars turning over. It's guys and women coming into the office 7 a.m., drinking their coffee, and then diving in. So when someone is analyzing this trail, one of the hottest trails we've got in finding Nancy Guthrie, what do they do?

Is it all on computer? are they looking at documents? Are they altogether in a conference room? What is it? What does it look like? Absolutely. You essentially have an investigator likely in an office in front of a laptop or a computer who's in a tool like TRM. You know, it's an application that actually shows funds moving on a blockchain. There's a user interface that creates graphs. And you're saying to yourself, all right, I'm looking at that initial address that's in the ransom note. Where are funds going? And then you start tracing and you have these really cool graphs that are following the money in real time. The problem is you need. that initial payment in order to start that activity. And open question about whether or not we have that today. So that crypto address is a very, very powerful investigative lead. But again, you need a payment to be made one way or another. To Joseph Scott Morgan joining us, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University.

He is the author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. And he is a star of a hit podcast, Bodybacks at Joseph Scott Morgan. And for my purposes, he is a death investigator with over 10,000 death scenes under his belt. I don't believe any ransom was ever paid. Even though Savannah believes, and I believe her, that two of those ransom notes were from people connected to the kidnapping of Nancy Guthrie because they never offered proof of life. Never. Okay. Well, yeah, they didn't.

And to that point, we have to begin to think about what's her status at this point in time. And, you know, that's a big piece to this, isn't it, Nancy? Because suddenly we have all of the static and all of this chatter. And then it just drops off into nothingness. So I wonder if these individuals that have perpetrated this crime are left, you know, kind of scratching their head thinking, oh, what in the world do we do at this point in time? because as you mentioned, my background is as a death investigator. And right now, I don't have a lot of hope at this point in time, Nancy, particularly considering, you know, how much time has gone by.

And in addition of that, what type of physical health she was in. Right. I'm referring, I'm strictly focusing on solving this case. I'm not a pining as to whether Ms. Guthrie has passed on. I'm talking about the problem with the ransom note. The problem is it went to a news outlet, not the family. It was not immediate, as you would expect in a ransom note. They want their money and they want the whole thing over. Then they want to fly to France where they can hide.

And they never offer proof of life. Those are many of the problems. Guys, we've heard a lot in the last 36 hours about the home being, quote, immaculate. What would you expect from Mrs. Guthrie? Of course the home was immaculate. I think what they're trying to say is what? She wasn't forced out of the home. Well, she was.

Savannah says that her mother was taken from her bed and her pajamas with no shoes. And we see Mrs. Guthrie's blood on the front porch. So it's not immaculate. That's video of the inside of Mrs. Guthrie's home from our friends at today on YouTube on one of Savannah's visits. I want you to look at a photo. A photo of the front of Ms. Guthrie's home. Now, in this photo, it became relevant because a state worker had been at the home after she went missing and put her card up there. But look at the inside of the home.

There you see the foyer. And it is immaculate. Nothing was turned over. There was no struggle there. And importantly, Joe Scott, no rug. there are also reports that there was blood on the interior of the door. But what do you make of what we're seeing? There's no sign of struggle.

What can you do with this, Joe Scott? By the way, that's from Crystal M-A-R-87, Crystal Mar-87 on X. Go ahead, Joe Scott. Yeah, so when you're taking a look at that image, you know, one of the things that really stands out is that little table that's in the background. and there is that lamp that's precariously positioned there. When you think about that, and interestingly enough, that lamp looks very similar to the one that we saw just a moment ago in her bedroom as she was making her bed. At any rate, when we work a case, Nancy, you know, the classic statement we say is no signs of force to entry, no signs of struggle. If there was, in fact, a struggle, could it have potentially involved that little bit?

table. Could they have just swept right past it and it not be touched? Well, yeah, that's a possibility. But just from that view alone, and again, this is one little sliver. We're not seeing anything there that would be indicative of a struggle where somebody is rolling around the ground where we have broken furniture, toppled, toppled fixtures, that sort of thing. That's nothing like you would normally expect to see. And here's the other bit to this. You had mentioned, and we talked about that's extensively the other day, there appears to be no internal rug from that little perspective there. I'm not saying that it couldn't be out of view, but there's no runner visible, which you see many times at front doors on the interior as opposed to exterior. So, yeah, there wouldn't have been

anything to have collected relative to a rug to bring in to do analysis there. Again, we go back to the welcome mat that's in front of the door, which, of course, was not collected initially. And we've got some close-ups, too, of the debris of the upper right-hand side. That one. Okay. There's your shot. What about it, Joe Scott? Yeah, I'm looking at this, Nancy.

And, you know, the thing about blood is everybody thinks that they can spot it. Guess what? You can't. And particularly when you have a mat like this that's black. Now, if the thing was maybe beige or white or something like that, maybe it would pop. Okay. And remember, it seems we don't call blood. We say a blood-lock substance.

We have to test that to make sure it's blood. But guess what? In this case, with that deposition there, we already know something here. They have tested that blood that does come back as her blood. I don't know what's on that carpet. Also, there could be footprints on that carpet as well that you would have to use alternative lighting in order to essentially raise.

So again, we've talked about maybe contact with a shoe print into the blood. Maybe it was transferred over onto the mat, but this thing's not collected. The big question of that, and I pose this to you, Nancy, how in the hell are you going to analyze something if you don't collect it and take it back to be analyzed? Good point, and I want to show you a photo we obtained at the get-go. It's of the front porch with a tent around it. It's in broad daylight. This shot from our friend Matt Finn, FNC, on X. if you will recall when this first occurred Joe Scott Morgan, I suggested to you that the tent could be there to get to use ALS, alternative light source.

Could you, in a nutshell, explain what that means? Well, light works at various different spectrums. And so you need to have a controlled environment when you see the tent essentially there, if that in fact is what they were using it for. You want to be able to shut down and control the amount of light that's coming in because you're going to be using what's referred to as alternative light sources. This can be things like infrared. There's certainly other things that we apply at scenes. And what you're trying to pick up on are little nuances that are going to luminous through this varied light spectrum that we can actually document photographically. And we do it in real time.

And here's the real crux of this. we have to do it in an environment where the evidence is collected in what's referred to as in situ. That means in place. So it's a reference point. If you take a shot in a reference point relative to that door in the event that this thing does go to jury, they have that point of context so that they can absolutely understand it and contextualize it. This shot from our friend, Matt Finn, FNC on X, speaking on, and by the way, it may be of no probative value at this juncture, but you're right, that doormat, which was probably teeming with forensic evidence, was not collected until it was too late and all the evidence likely destroyed. Let me go back to that photo of the inside of Ms. Guthrie's foyer, because on it, and I keep getting questions of,

about this, you see a business card. Once and for all, Dave Mack joining us, Crime Stories Investigative Reporter. What is the business card? It is an adult protective services card belonging to an advanced investigator by the name of Deborah M. Her name is written on the card. An advanced investigator with adult protective services in Tucson would be a professional field investigator employed by the Arizona Department of Economic Security's APS unit, whose job is to investigate reports of abuse, neglect, exploitation, or self-neglect. And in this case, when Nancy Guthrie was reported missing, APS got involved, and that's why the card was placed on the door. There was nobody home at the time that Deborah placed the card

in the door. So, no mystery. It's all being determined. that she was brought out after Ms. Guthrie went missing, and that's it. There was no elder abuse going on. Deborah M. was not her regular, quote, caseworker. Nothing of that sort. Is that correct? Absolutely, correct. You're sure?

Yep. Okay. Moving forward, I want to talk about evidence missed within Nancy Guthrie's garage. Let's take a look at her home that includes a shot of her garage. We are learning that Nancy Guthrie rarely used the front door, and I assume this extends to the back door, which is even harder to get to. This video, guys, from our friends at 12 News, she typically used the garage door. Now, Chris McDonough joining us, Director Cole Case Foundation, former homicide detect,

Chris, my parents did the same exact thing. They'd pull up, do the garage door, and go in that way. It's just easier. It's just easier. And they believed the garage door gave them security, which I agree with them, and would very often leave the door from the garage into the laundry room, which went into the kitchen. They'd leave that unlocked because the garage door protected them.

You see? so they'd pull up, open the garage door with the clicker, go in, it took me forever to make them do this, shut the garage door, and then get out and go in to make sure nobody would come in there. That said they'd leave that door unlocked going into the kitchen or laundry room. That we understand is Ms. Guthrie's practice. But we are now understanding that evidence may have been missed, in the garage. And now it's too late. What should have been done in the garage, Chris? And what do you

think about this? So right there, we learn a little bit about what we would call pattern of life in the victimology aspect of this thing. And that just tells us, okay, Ms. Guthrie, this is how she does things. It's not unusual for, you know, homes around anywhere. to have the interior garage doors not locked. Okay, so it's a good idea for your audience. Always lock those interior garage doors. That said, the investigators should have processed that entire garage almost immediately. They should have, they did tow her car out of there,

but they really should have, you know, give it 100%, you know, alternate light sources, you know, finding footprints throwing, you know, powder on there. Nancy, on that one helicopter shot over the house that you showed just a couple of minutes ago, I noticed the gate appears to be opened. And is this the propped open gate right there? Is this the propped open gate that Savannah was talking about? You know, because she said there were three doors that were propped open, two underneath that patio and then the gate.

itself. So that should have been a red flag also for the investigators. The video, the aerial video, we're showing you as from our friends at 12 News. Take a listen to what Savannah said. I mean, from the very early moments, you know, Annie and Tommy were saying, this isn't, this isn't that case that you are used to where someone wanders off. She can't wander off. My mom, her, she was in tremendous pain. Her back was very bad, you know. She was trying to on a good day she could walk down to the mailbox and get the mail but most days not.

So there was no wander off and the doors were popped open. Yeah. And there was blood on the front door stuff. And the ring camera had been yanked off. Yeah. And so we were saying this is

do something. This is not okay. Yeah. This isn't something is very wrong here. Yeah. For my friends at today, YouTube, you're right. She says the doors were propped open. I didn't hear anything about a gate or three doors slash gates. I heard doors.

And we know the back door was propped open, reportedly with flower pots. Don't know if that's true. Why do I care? It could mean something probative-wise. Why were they used? Were they touched with a bare fingertip? Is their DNA on them? That said, you're right, doors propped open.

But I want to talk to you about the garage door. The garage door, we know for a fact, closed Jan 31. What time? Nancy arrived home 9.48 p.m. The garage door closed at 950, 950. There was a blue Subaru that remembers. remained part in her garage, it was towed away for analysis. So at least they pulled out the Subaru. So straight out to Airy Redboard joining us, what should have been done forensically in the

garage? Look, you want to ultimately take over that crime scene entirely. You want to block it off. You don't want anyone in and out. And you want to do absolutely everything you can to gather every piece of evidence as quickly as possible, which is really the key here. What about it, Joe Scott? I know you agree with what Erie just said. What more should have been done? And I assume you agree with me that now it's too late to get anything. Yeah, that train left the station a long, long time ago, Nancy. You know, anything that you would find right now at this point in time, you would have great questions that would be asked about the veracity of the of the evidence, whether or not it was still valid, load these many weeks.

So, yeah, I mean, listen, I don't care what level you're at as an investigator. There are just some basic tenets that you hold to, and that the number one thing is security of the scene, and it's not just the scene, it's that evidence that is contained therein, those things that are unseen and unseen. We cannot go out, contrary to what the public thinks, we cannot go out to a scene and microscopically observe it and pick up on everything there. It takes time because there are things that have to be collected and then brought in and analyzed in a controlled environment. Well, the reality is, Joe Scott, and you pointed it out, if the front door mat with blood all around it wasn't taken, I don't have a lot of hope for evidence retained from the garage. At least they got the Subaru. And a lot of people, I want to put this to bed, are stating, did she ever make it home?

Did she really make it home? Yes, she made it home. You've got the garage door opening and closing. You have her pacemaker connected to her Bluetooth. It then spikes around 2 a.m. and then disconnects. So that would have to be a. hell of a conspiracy to cover all those tracks, to fake the garage door opening and closing, to fake her pacemaker connecting to her Wi-Fi, her Bluetooth at home, and then severing that

connection around 2 a.m. So I just don't see a conspiracy involving her never making at home. Back out to you, Dave Mack, it's my understanding that the guy, leading this has never handled a homicide? You're correct, Nancy. It's one of the that has come up during the course of this investigation that the lead detective on this case has never, or the person heading up this investigation, has not done a homicide investigation. The most experienced person dealing with this in terms of detectives has two years of

experience at the Pima County Sheriff's Department. Now, thankfully, the FBI is involved, but for the first days, Nancy, every decision being made by a detective with less than two years' experience. Amidst claims that Nanos' team did not process the garage tonight, at least we know that the feds are tracking that ransom note Bitcoin account. And they are calling every bit of information, an entire team of Bitcoin. chasers, tracers, are on it as we go to air. If you know or think you know anything about the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, please dial toll-free 800-225-5-324. That's 800 call FBI.

Or if you wish to remain anonymous, 520-882-7463. There is a $1.2 plus million-dollar reward for information leading to the whereabouts of Ms. Guthrie. No arrest, much less a conviction, is required for you to get the reward. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight. Good night, friend.