Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - School boy commits suicide after school bullies aren't stopped

Episode Date: May 3, 2019

Young Aaron Fuller, only in sixth grade, takes his own life after school bullies tell him to commit suicide.Aaron's dad, Steve, and step-mom, Tami, join Nancy to talk about their teen son, and what he went through at his school, which was supposed to a a safe space. They offer advice for parents whose children may also be facing bullies.Nancy's expert panel also weighs in:Dr. Bethany Marshall: Psychoanalyst and family therapistKathleen Murphy: Family AttorneyNancy Willard: Attorney and author of “Be Positively Powerful: An Empowerment Plan for Teens Who Are Bullied or Harassed”John Lemley: Crimeonline.com Reporter Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. They would come right over to his lunch table and mess with him and telling that he was worthless and that he should kill himself and everything else, and nobody saw it. I don't get it. We asked students and we asked the teachers and stuff, well, did you ever hear Aaron yelling back at these kids or trying to defend himself and everybody told us no Aaron would just sit there

quietly and and he would get upset and then he would storm out of the lunch room. Every night when I go to go upstairs, his room is right across from ours. I walk upstairs and I look in there, and I still can't believe it, and I say goodnight to him, and I tell him that I love him. I don't get it either. I do not get it. Why this little boy, an Ohio 6th grader, was bullied and bullied and bullied. People making fun of his clothes. People making fun of him about every single thing.

I've read so much about Aaron Fuller, how finally at the end he would just go and sit all by himself in the lunchroom and not even fight back against his bullies. And now Aaron is gone and left trying to put the pieces back together. His mom and dad, Tammy and Steve Fuller, who are joining me right now. If you have a child, if you have a grandchild, if you have a child that you love more than anything in the world like I do, please listen. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. They told him to do it. Quote, they told him to do it. An Ohio sixth grader, sixth grader commits suicide after bullies mock him, torture him, belittle him, berate him, encouraging him to take his own life. Straight out first to dad, To Dad, Steve Fuller. Steve and Tammy, thank you so much for being with us. Did you have any idea, Steve, what was going on at school?

Not at first. And then, like we said, back in September when he tried to drink himself to death. He said he was just trying to forget everything that was going on. And we started to find out what was going on. So we contacted the school and told them they said they were going to try and get it to stop because they have a no bully policy. And it just it just didn't stop. Well, I don't I don't know what that means to Tammy Fuller. This is Aaron's stepmom.

What is a no bully policy? Because I'm pretty sure my children, they're 11, that their school has a no bully policy. But every day I hear about bullying at school, even though there's a no bully policy. What is a no bully policy? Nancy, it's nothing. It's just a way for the schools to try to protect themselves. And it's not enough. What do you think it is? What do they claim it is? They said that they do whatever they can when they know it's happening.

But they don't. Well, they had to know this was happening. You brought it to their attention, but it didn't stop it. They told us the last time we were up there that it was no bullying really involved the first few times that this happened. Like back in September, they said that that wasn't the kid being a bully. It was just being a punk. Well, I don't know what the difference between that is, Steve. What the difference is, when you have a bully at school and you warn the bully and the bully does it one more time, the bully needs to go. Can I just tell you something that

happened for about, I would say, two years. My son, John David, and he is a gentle giant. He's already taller than me. And his sister, however, is much smaller. For two years, Steve and Tammy, he would come home and either he would tell me or his sister would tell me there was a guy who had been held back maybe one or two years, I don't know, but he was huge, even bigger than John David. And John David would get tripped or accidentally pushed down. And John David would always say, well, you know what? It might've been an accident, mom. Please don't say anything. He'll just make it so much worse. And they started saying, the both of them, snitches get stitches. All right, so he convinced me that he thought there was a chance it was an accident,

but it was always the same kid, all right? Finally, the third year on the playground, he punched John David in the stomach and then spit on him. Can I tell you how crazy I went? But I held it in. I held it in until three o'clock. And then I waited outside the principals. And I talked and talked and talked and talked. And the next day, believe it or not, as I'm sitting there minding my own business, actually on a conference call, another mom came up to my window. It was knocking on my window. I got off the call and let it down. I'm all like, hey. And she said the same thing. It happened to her son and that there were a lot of other parents. And when I come to a meeting, I'm like, yeah, I'll come to a meeting. I got in the meeting, Steve and Tammy, and there were 22 other

parents. They were parents of 11 children. And there were apparently a lot of other parents that could not fit in the conference room that were not there. All of them had been punched, kicked, their pants pulled down and then punched in the stomach. All sorts of stuff with this one kid. And none of the other parents knew about the other one. And I looked around I could not believe it Steve so it's hard for me to believe that the school didn't know Aaron was being bullied and we know that they did and they know that they did too it's just you're talking

about schools that you're gonna try to go after to try to get some kind of answer. And they're only allowed to say so much or else they get in trouble. My oldest son, a friend of his had some bracelets made up in memory of Aaron on it. And he's not even allowed to pass them out at the school. I'm happy to say that finally, after all these parents came forward, and one of them even threatening to sue, they did get rid of the kid. All right, and from what I understand, he's already been suspended or thrown out at the next school. What I don't understand is why, when you know you have a bully, why it keeps going on and on and on. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me, Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer who's very

well versed in this area of law. Dr. Bethany Marshall, renowned psychoanalyst from LA. You can find her at drbethanymarshall.com. Nancy Willard, author, attorney, Be Positively Powerful, an empowerment plan for teens who are bullied or Harassed. What a book. You can find it on Amazon. John Limley, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. But the reality of bullying can end like this. Tammy, do you remember when you learned that your other son had found Aaron and and he had taken his own life. Yeah, I never ran upstairs so fast, ever.

That night, I think you guys had gone out for pizza to bring it home. You weren't gone for long. What happened when you got home? We called for Aaron. He didn't answer. I thought he was asleep. So we sent Joe upstairs to get him him and that's when he started yelling. And Steve and I got up the stairs and immediately got here and started and took over. But he was gone before we even started. Just thinking and looking at a picture

of Aaron right now, he just is the most precious boy. Just absolutely precious. And I'm thinking how things could have been so different and why it had to be this way. With me is Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer. We are talking about the completely avoidable death of a handsome, handsome little boy an Ohio sixth grader who commits suicide after bullies at school mock him his clothes everything about him at first he would fight back and then he just sat there and just took it Kathleen Murphy you have seen this over and over in your work why what what

takes so long for the school to act Nancy, I don't only see it in my job, but I have that experience among my son and his friends. And they just had the conversation. You cannot say anything to your teachers because it only makes it worse. You can't say anything to the guidance counselor because they only make it worse. You can't say anything to the guidance counselor because they'll only make it worse. You can't say anything to your parents because it only makes it worse. So not only are these children in a situation where they're being bullied, they don't know how to turn to the school or how to turn to their parents to resolve the problem because it is such a pervasive issue in the schools. And personally, I think schools are too big. And I think it's too much on some of the teachers and staff to have this on their plate. It is a lot to deal with. It involves mental health and it involves social status and it involves just so many components. Well, I have a question. We need a shrink. Before I go to the expert, Nancy Willard, Be Positively Powerful, the author of that on Amazon, Dr. Bethany Marshall, I need a shrink.

Number one, what is going on in the head of the bully? And what about all the children, the teens that stand on the side and do nothing? Well, in terms of the mind of the bully, the bully becomes used to a power imbalance. You know, when your kids were little and you saw them play, one child would wrestle and be on top of the other, and then they would flip positions with the person who was on top being underneath. So there would be top, bottom, top, bottom. We see this in every aspect of the animal kingdom. Cats do it. Dogs do it.

Squirrels do it. Children do it where they share power in play, okay? That is an important precursor to good mental health and good development and growing into adults where adults can share power positions with each other. One person can be one up and one down. For instance, little kids will say, I'm the king of the castle, you're the dirty rascal, or I'm the cop and you're the robber. And they'll play that way for a while, but then they will switch positions where the cop turns into the robber and the robber turns into the cop, bullies get

stuck in the power position. They are always the king of the castle. They are always the cop. They always take that one-up position. And I think sometimes it's because of what's going on in their family. It could be a powerful group psychology in the school. It could be that they're just really disturbed little kids. Nancy, not all kids who are disturbed are disturbed because they come from bad families. Sometimes they are born that way. And the best thing that the child can do who is being bullied is talk to some other person who is there, like a teacher, their parent. Stay in a safe space.

Don't be isolated. Good posture. Stand up straight. Look the other person in the eye. There are things we can do to help our kids to stop being bullied. But bullies are bullies. They're bullies forever. They will stay that way throughout the lifespan.

Well, I want to go to Tammy and Steve Fuller who are joining us. This is Erin's stepmom and dad. Steve, I know Erin would tell you at some point, would tell you he was getting bullied at school. Did you feel helpless? Did you feel like there was something you could do about it? What did you do and what was your advice to him? Well, I told him to talk to his teachers and stuff

and that I would go up and talk to him and uh try to figure something out um but we try to get aaron to understand that you know you have to talk to somebody about it because if you don't it just bottles up and it causes more problems than necessary. And so we would tell him to talk to his teachers and stuff, try to get moved from one spot to another so he'd stay away from them, which we were told by the teachers that they would make sure he was sitting in a different area in the lunchroom and stuff. And they would keep an eye on him because they didn't tolerate the bullying and stuff. And it just didn't work.

I feel sometimes, Tammy Fuller, this is Aaron's stepmom, almost helpless. Because your child can beg you not to intervene because they think it would make it worse. And then you stand by. When I say feeling helpless, you want to do something, but you don't know what to do. Tammy, what did you tell him? That he could come to us. He could talk to us about anything and tell us what was going on, and we would try to do what we could do. Guys, we were talking to the parents of Aaron Fuller. They found Aaron dead in the home. They had only been out a short while to

bring home a pizza. Joining me right now, attorney and author Nancy Willard. Nancy's book, Be Positively Powerful, an empowerment plan for teens who are bullied or harassed. Nancy, I think we need help. I don't know if I mishandled John David, and Lucy has girl bullies. Her girl bullies started in pre-K, for Pete's sake. And I managed to help Lucy, but with John David, it was too late. We were already already in it that year I couldn't get him in another class I couldn't rearrange everything it just leaves you feeling so helpless Nancy indeed what educators were being told about bullying behavior was in part accurate. Now, Bethany got it nailed right. She's talking about this stuck in a mode of seeking dominance, and this is dominance behavior that relates to

animal behavior. Sometimes the students who engage in bullying are the ones who have also been bullied, have experienced trauma, and they're trying to fight their way kind of back up. But a lot of the young people who engage in bullying are the popular leadership students whose staff think are just great. And what they are doing, especially as they approach puberty, is they are engaging in this behavior to seek to achieve higher social status and dominance. And the other thing that I saw is that the approach that educators have been directed, and they've been directed by state statutes in every state, to respond to this is to make rules, a policy. This is against the policy. We have a no bullying zone, which is absolutely ridiculous.

And so they create the policy, and they tell students to report. And reporting has profound risks. Snitches get stitches. So most young people don't report. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me right now, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter John Limley. John, we've got it bass-ackwards this morning, and that's my fault. I didn't start with the facts. Tell me what happened.

Nancy, the story begins just one Friday night after a week of work for Steve and Tammy, school for the boys, Aaron and Joseph, at home while their parents went out to get some dinner, some pizza for a Friday night to sort of celebrate. There's another another week gone. We can say goodbye to that one. When Steve and Tammy returned home just about 45 minutes later, they walk in the door and call out to the boys that, you know, supper's here. Come on down. And Joseph comes down, but no Aaron. And so they send Tammy and Steve send Joseph upstairs to go get and go get his brother. And that's when they hear him yell out.

And then Steve and Tammy go rushing up. And that that's when they see this this horrible sight that their their son has hung himself with a belt. You know, when I'm hearing you tell the story, John Limley is so overwhelming with guys, for those of you that need help, please call National Suicide Prevention Lifeline, 800-273-8255, or text TALK to 741741. Listen. Family, friends, and their lawyer calling for change within the district. Brian Claypool is the Avalos lawyer.

He says the school district knew she was being bullied for months and didn't do anything to protect her. lawyer calling for change Brian Claypool is the Ava the school district knew for months and didn't do her. He says Rosalie left taking her own life in th parents not to show her p funeral. The fact that th be so verbally abused at

where she writes a suicide note to her parents saying she doesn't even feel like she's worthy of a picture at her funeral speaks volumes. they released a statement that says, in part, we strive every day to be a safe, supportive, and engaging learning environment. We will continue to raise awareness and work with students and the community to support our children. Joining me, Tammy Fuller and Steve Fuller. They are the parents of sixth grader Aaron Fuller, who killed himself after being bullied and cyber bullied by people at school. Now, you were just hearing our friend at CBS News talking about another little girl about the same age as Erin Rosalia Avila, who hung herself after bullying. I mean, it's growing.

There are more and more and more students this very age and even younger that are taking their own lives because they don't know what else to do. I want to go to Steve Fuller. This is Aaron's dad. When you look back on it, do you think, oh, I shoulda, I coulda, I woulda? I mean, what else could you possibly have done? We talked all the time about stuff that me and Joseph and Tammy and just everybody would try to talk to him and tell him, you know, don't worry about what they say because he was in the band and stuff. He was really talented playing the bass guitar. And we just tried to reassure him that he was doing a good job with that. And we just, we tried to do everything we could to show him that his life wasn't as bad as they were trying to make it sound. I mean, when you went to the school, Tammy, what did the school tell you? I mean, did you alert? I'm sure you did alerted the school he was being bullied.

I was at that school every time in front of the principals, and they promised me that they would take care of it. But the final straw was when Jim Witt, the superintendent, said to me, it's just kids being fools. It's not bullying. And I said to him, I send my children to this school thinking they're safe, and they're not. Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer, that just sends a chill down my spine. It's just kids being a-holes. That's what a bully is! Well, this is the same talk that parents would hear in the 1950s. It's just kids being kids. And then in the 70s, and then in the 80s.

We've got to do a better job. We have to find that solution. And the solution involves us all. It involves our children being raised to be stronger. It involves the parents being in tune with those children like your guests are today. They were in tune with their son. It involves the teachers knowing their kids. It involves a smaller community of teachers and children in the classroom. And it involves a public service that you're doing right now today. I know, Kathleen, I'm sorry. I usually always agree with you, but I'm just hearing words, words, words, blah, blah, blah, because they did all that. You're right. They did all that. I agree.

And it didn't work and nothing happened and now he's gone. I mean, it just escalated. child out of school for a while because I don't, he wasn't necessarily subjected to intense bullying, but he felt very awkward at the school and he felt a bit overwhelmed and I brought him home for a while. Well, I'll tell you what we did. We, we, we decided to take the children out of that particular school, which had and has an excellent reputation because it just seemed to me like nothing was getting better. And then I found out it wasn't just my son, who I've always taught because he's so big. You can't roughhouse too much. You can't hurt anybody. And we've instilled that into him. And then I felt, did I do the wrong thing?

Should he punch this kid back? What should we do? Finally, I decided to just yank him out. And then at the very last minute, literally, as we were signing into another school and had toured it and the whole shebang, they kicked the problem out. And now there has been no discussion of boy bullying. Now, the girl bullying is a whole other can of worms. Dr. Bethany Marshall, it's like the plastics, the mean girls times 100. And this, you know, all started in pre-K.

I managed after pre-K when Lucy would cry the whole way home she's a really quiet very shy little girl she would cry the whole way home every day after school I can't take this anymore it's just killing me so from then on I just simply had Lucy and John David in a different class than the bullies, and the bullies stayed in their class together. She had no more problems. I felt so bad for the other girls in the other class that had the bully, Dr. Bethany. Thank you. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace girl bullying is a whole nother can of worms uh dr bethany marshall it's like the plastics the

mean girls times a hundred and this you know all started in pre-K. I managed after pre-K when Lucy would cry the whole way home. She's a really quiet, very shy little girl. She would cry the whole way home every day after school. I can't take this anymore. It's just killing me. So from then on, I just simply had Lucy and John David in a different class than the bullies and the bullies stayed in their class together. She had no more problems. I felt so bad for the other girls in the other class that had the bully, Dr. Bethany. Really, but it's not like the administration doesn't know. They know. So what is the thinking of the administration that really just does nothing? Why are they so afraid to throw out the bully? Okay, Nancy, first of all, the thinking is the thinking of the administration that really just does nothing? Why are they so afraid to throw out the bully?

Okay, Nancy, first of all, the thinking is the same as people who witness spousal abuse, child abuse, somebody's being perpetrated on in their neighborhood, and they don't call adult protective services. They don't call child abuse hotlines. They always imagine, they think they're imagining it and they do not want to get somebody in trouble. But I can tell you if you see a child bullying another child, you are not imagining it. And remember, I talked about Bethany, Bethany, I got to tell you a story that happened to me. I was at a book signing. And it was my first nonfiction, so it was a long time ago, Objection. And a woman came up to me, and I thought I recognized her, but I wasn't sure.

And she said, I don't know if you remember me, but when we were in the, I think she said, eighth grade or tenth grade, she said, I was getting bullied. And you came in between me and the bullies and yelled at them and told them to leave me alone when she said that it triggered a memory and this was a girl who's just the cutest thing ever and she lived with her grandma I never knew where her parents were I mean when you're a kid you don't think about wow what happened where are your parents But the grandma would make her outfits. Okay. So she would always wear a matching ensemble. Okay.

Now for an adult, that may be great. But when you're wearing a plaid pair of pants, a plaid jacket, a plaid shirt, and a plaid hat to school. And then the next day you wear a velvet green jacket, a velvet green pair of pants, you know, and a velvet green hat to school. And I mean, I mean, for kids, that's not the way they dress. That's the way your grandma dresses. And they were beautiful clothes, but everybody would make fun of her every day. And I remember this when she came up and said that I that I had thought of it since then. There were like three other girls. Or maybe four. And they had her kind of like back in the corner.

We didn't have lockers. We had cubby holes. And she was against the cubbies. And they were all like haranguing her about her clothes. And I hardly even remembered it. And all it took was leave her alone. You're mean. You're just mean.

Go bother, go away. Go bother somebody else. And they all just dispersed like roaches. And it was just one sentence. Believe me, I was not a hero. It was just that. And they all went away. And sometimes I think that's all it takes, just somebody.

I'm surprised they didn't punch me in the nose looking back on it. But sometimes it just takes one sentence or somebody just call them out one time. Well, Nancy, there are positive uses of power and negative uses of power. The bully abuses power. What you did for your friend who, bless her heart, she was a moving target in her all-plot outfit, is that you engaged in a positive use of power. And that, for any parent who's listening, that is a very important thing to teach your child to do. Teach them to do things as simple as to stand up straight, not lean over. Teach them to look the bully in the eyes. Maybe if they focus on the color of

the other person's eyes, it will give them the bully, the perception that that person is on the same level. Teach them not to turn their back to the bully. Teach them to stay in public places like sitting right behind the school bus driver or staying near the teacher's desk so they can't be bullied. Nancy, the most startling thing I ever saw in terms of helping bullies to stop bullying was a tape by Virginia Satir, who was one of the founders of family therapy. And in it, what she did, there was a girl who was being aggressed against by her brother. And she got the family on a stage and

she made the brother get on his knees, hands and knees or knees and beg the sister for forgiveness. And she made him do it again and again and again that he had to learn to ask for forgiveness. And I know now that what she was doing was she was putting the little sister in the one up power position. She was sitting higher in a chair. The brother was in a position. Well, I appreciate that, and I'm glad it worked for them, but with Tammy and Steve, they kept going to the school and trying to change that dynamic you're telling me about, and according to them, the school district told them there was nothing that could be done because Aaron had, quote, participated in an online

exchange. And I guess what they mean by that, Steve, is he responded to the cyber bullies online when they were antagonizing him. And Jackie here in the studio, Steve, just brought something up that bullies have been around forever. But it seems like cyber bullying, but you didn't used to hear about kids' suicides. But with cyberbullying now, the kids' suicide rate has soared. Tell me about Aaron's cyberbullying online. Well, he come downstairs one day upset, and I asked him what was going on. And he told me that the kids that were bullying were on this snapchat or whatever it is they were online and i had him bring his phone down and it was showing me all the stuff that

they were saying but what he didn't tell me is he was erasing the stuff that he was saying back to him. So we had got hold of the school and then the school got hold of the other boys and talked to them and they said, well, he was saying stuff back to us. So they asked us through their phones and then they told us the stuff that Aaron was saying back to them. And Aaron's friends were also chiming in on what Aaron was saying. And if they didn't, they were going to have to deal with all of Aaron's friends. You know, I'm hearing you, Steve, and I'm hearing you. I just want to say one thing I've discovered, Steve.

And I discovered it when I was writing a book and I'm working on it right now called Don't Be a Victim. And there's a whole section there about school, school safety, and a large degree is I learned with the cyberbullying, it gets so intense, and it's so easy to just fire off a text or a Snapchat or an email, and you don't even think twice, it takes 15 seconds, but then it's there forever. I found out about this thing called Bark, B-A-R-K, and I'm plugged into the children's phones, for all you parents listening, whenever there's anything, there's profanity, there's violence, there's bullying, there's SEX, there's all these things, whenever anything remotely, like the word slap or hit hit it may be completely out of

context but I get an alert on my phone I get an email immediately going there is a problem on Lucy's phone and I immediately look up to see what the problem is a lot of times she's downloaded a video where the word is in there and it's not an actual exchange, but it's so scary. Things pop up all the time. Tammy, I think Jackie may be right here in the studio with me because bullying has been around forever, but we did not see a wave of children committing suicide. It seems like the change has been the cyberbullying, Tammy. I agree. In fact, two weeks after Aaron died, there was another boy from the same school

that hung himself because of the same reason. You're kidding. No, no, I'm not. Oh, my God. He died on the 26th of January, where Aaron died on the 11th. What is the school saying? Nothing. At all. Tammy, believe it or not, I'm actually speechless. John Limley, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. You didn't tell me that. You didn't tell me that in one school, in a space of weeks,

two young children committed suicide because of bullying. What school district is this, John Limley? Who is this? It is unfathomable what is going on in schools these days. We were talking earlier about Rosalie, the first sound we heard, Avila, Rosalie Avila, and she experienced nonstop verbal abuse. But to make matters worse, classmates were circulating a video portraying what an ugly girl looked like and what a pretty girl looked like and used a picture of Rosalie to portray the ugly girl. And forgive me for interjecting my own opinion, but she was anything but ugly, a beautiful child. The video was circulated throughout the school and online. It went viral. And it's so sad. In her suicide note, Rosalie apologized to her parents for being ugly and asked that in her obituary, they not post her picture so people wouldn't

make fun of her. Nancy Willard, attorney and author of Be Positively Powerful, an empowerment plan for teens who are bullied or harassed. I mean, what do you make up talk like that? What is happening in schools, if you look at the data, and by the way, if you're writing a chapter on bullying, I'd love to share data with you. What schools are doing, FLAT is not working. We have data from the Center for Disease Control asking students about being bullied. They really started asking the question in 2009. There has been no decline. What happens when these incidents are reported? Because they've got this very strict definition of bullying in the statutes. The principal tends to rationalize they rationalize in four ways they say it was

kids being kids locker room talk it's not bullying so there's nothing I can do your child is overreacting and if your child would just stop blank then this wouldn't happen to your child. And part of the problem is our schools, our educators, school leaders are so overwhelmed by the lack of funding and by this myopic focus on test scores. They don't have time to deal with this, but we've had this rash of school shootings. It's the same. I mean, the data show that the young people who engage in school shooting also have been bullied. Okay, hold on just a moment. Wait a minute. I want to back it up to that issue about the bullies to Steve and Tammy Fuller.

Tammy, did you know who the bullies were? Yep, all four names, but the parents didn't know. Why weren't they ever kicked out? That's a good question. You should ask Lake Local Schools that because they won't tell me. Steve, do you have any idea? I mean, were they ever placed on suspension or kicked out or anything? No. And from what I was told by a few different people, that the mother didn't even know. And the mom was not notified at first. We found out at Aaron's funeral that the boy and his mom came to Aaron's funeral, and he signed Aaron's casket. Let me ask you this, Steve.

You say that at night. You still say goodnight. You know, I still talk to my dad like he's right here with me, and I think it's just because I can't think that he's gone. Do you ever feel like Aaron is trying to give you a message or reach you, Steve? Absolutely. Yesterday, there were songs that come on the radio, and I just broke down and started crying. My wife asked me what was wrong, and then she heard the song,

and she knew immediately that I was thinking of Aaron. And it breaks my heart because I also found out that there's a little boy that has autism at that school and he was being picked on and Aaron would try to help him out and um they were really close friends and he was he was being picked on on the bus just a few weeks ago. And his mom went and talked to the principal and them at the school, and they sent him home with a pair of headphones so he didn't have to listen to the bullies on the bus. Why is everybody so worried about the bully? It may not be effective.

Hey, I have an idea, Steve Fuller and Tammy Fuller. Throwing the bully out of school may not be effective in rehabilitating the bully, but I guarantee it'll be effective for saving the victim. Why not just kick the bullies off? I don't get it. I mean, Kathleen Murphy, what am I missing? Why not kick off the bully or kick out the bully? Why do you put the bully ahead of the other children?

There are plenty of alternative schools that can have the bully. If they have a no-bully policy, why isn't it set up to where the first time the kid gets suspended, the parents get notified. The second time it happens, he gets expelled. Or the third time, somebody's going to commit suicide and the parents are going to suffer. To Tammy Fuller, Aaron's stepmom, you were so close to Aaron. Do you feel that he is trying to give you messages? Is he trying to communicate with you in any way? Every day.

Yeah, little things. I'll hear something fall and I'll say, oh, Aaron's here. I know he's here. I know he's with us. He comes to me in dreams. I know he's there. John Loomley, I don't understand why it's still happening. How many children have to commit suicide and endure suffering at this school

and other schools, and nothing is done. Probably the same administration is still in place. Nothing has changed. And it's amazing, Nancy. Kids are amazing, period. But what they can find to make fun of everything with Aaron, it was if he forgot to pack his lunch and didn't have money, telling him that his parents must not love him enough to feed him. They made fun of the way he dressed. In fact, at Christmas, he didn't ask for a lot, but what he did ask for were clothing shoes from brand names because he'd be made fun of if they were not. He would trade out a pair of new shoes from Walmart for an old pair of Nikes. So old, the soles were falling off. But the name brand was better to ward off the taunts. And school districts just don't seem to be able to keep track of all this when I guess there are so many other issues at hand. Well, whoa, whoa, whoa,

whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. John Lindley, you just heard Tammy and Steve say they told the administration they did know about it. It's not a matter of keeping track because they're overwhelmed. That's their job. Their job is to keep track of it. To Steve and Tammy, to you, Steve, you guys spent so much time with Aaron. And you did everything right. So what is your message, Steve? What is your message to parents listening now? Parents

that are worried. Parents like me, I'm worried. I'm worried. What can you tell me? Well, you said that we spend a lot of time with them and we've done everything right. But no matter how much time you spend with the children or you ask questions and stuff, you can't always do everything right. And you have to teach your kids that no matter what their choices are, everything's not going to be right, but you do the best you can. My message would be talk to your kids every day. Ask them how school was. Sit down at a family dinner every day and find out what's going on in your kids' lives. Because if you don't, and you don't try to protect them in some way,

then it eats at you. Guys, with me, Tammy and Steve Fuller, the parents of Aaron Fuller, a sixth grade boy that thought there was no other way to end his bullying other than to commit suicide. God rest his soul.

Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend.