Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - SCHOOL-SHOOTER-MOM GUILTY: Ignored Son's Filthy Room, Cavities & 9mm

Episode Date: February 7, 2024

Jennifer Crumbley becomes the first parent in the United States to be found guilty of involuntary manslaughter for a mass school shooting committed by her son, Ethan. She was convicted of four counts of involuntary manslaughter and faces a maximum sentence of 60 years in prison. Prosecutors said Jennifer Crumbley knew her son was struggling with mental health issues. They alleged instead of getting him the help he needed, Jennifer and her husband, James Crumbley, bought Ethan the gun he later used in the attack. The prosecution also showed the Crumbleys were attempting to flee when they realized they were going to be charged with the crime. James Crumbley faces the same charges as his wife, on March 5. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Kathleen Murphy - Raleigh, North Carolina, Attorney at TriangleDivorceLawyers.com Dr. Bethany Marshall – Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills); Twitter: @DrBethanyLive/ Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall; Appearing in the new show, “Paris in Love” on Peacock Sheryl McCollum  – Forensics Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder; Host of Podcast: “Zone 7;” X: @149Zone7 Dr. Jeffrey M. Jentzen – Professor of Forensic Pathology and Director of Autopsy and Forensic Services at the University of Michigan Medical School; Former Medical Examiner in Milwaukee County, Wisconsin Cassidy Johncox - Senior Digital News Editor for ClickOnDetroit; X: @cassidyjohncox  Elisa Mula – EMD Physical Security Strategist, Child/School Safety & Security Expert & Advocate; X: @EMDNYC1/IG: @emd_nyc/YouTube: @emd6271 See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guilty, absolutely guilty and an incredible and historic jury verdict. The mother of a teen school shooter, a killer, has been found guilty in connection with her son's shooting spree. Now, at first, that might sit wrong with you. But when you hear the evidence, you may very well agree with the jury. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories and on Sirius XM 111. Take a listen to the jury verdict. On count one of involuntary manslaughter as to Madison Baldwin, we find the defendant guilty Take a listen to the jury verdict. manslaughter regarding Hannah Hanna St. Juliana, we find the defendant guilty of involuntary manslaughter. And in count four of involuntary manslaughter against Justin Schilling,

we find the defendant guilty of involuntary manslaughter. You are hearing the jury foreperson calling out in open court that the defendant, Jennifer Crumley, the mother of school shooter Ethan Crumley, is in fact guilty of manslaughter herself. Now, to many people, that turns the criminal justice code on its ear. I disagree. I believe the jury is correct. And you're going to see why. For those of you that do not remember the infamous school shooting, listen. Yes. Sheriff Johnson. Listen. Yes.

Sheriff's office. It's safe to come out. Yeah, it's safe to come out. Now, we're not willing to take that risk right now. I can't hear you. We're not taking that risk right now. Okay, well, come to the door. Look at my bag, bro.

Yeah, bro. He said bro. he said bro red flags Slow down, you're fine. Joining me in the all-star panel makes sense of what we're hearing. But first to Cheryl McCollum, Cold Case Investigative Research Institute founder at coldcasecrimes.org and host of the hit series Zone 7, Cheryl McCollum, very quickly. What you're hearing right there are students barricaded. They've barricaded themselves behind doors, locked doors, and law enforcement is trying to get them to come out. And they're so afraid.

They're like, he said, bro, we're not coming out. That's not a cop. Then you hear rustling as they finally decide to run out and whimpering and crying. You have two children. Can you even imagine at age 14, 15, them barricading themselves behind a door at school, trying to determine should they come out or not after they've seen their classmates gunned down and dying in the floor at school? Nancy, it was difficult for me when they just went through drills of how to hide in their classroom. The reality of just having to have a drill was pitiful. Hearing what you just played, the reality of what those children went through

at the hands of a classmate is unfathomable. The state is arguing that the school shooter, Ethan Crumbly, 15 years old at the time, that he was completely neglected by his parents. They ignored him begging for mental health that he dreamed and thought of and planned, quote, shooting the school up. His words, not mine. Drawing pictures of murdering people saying, my life is useless.

Why am I even here? I want to die i will die i will go out after i shoot up the school how can you not know this but if you don't believe me i want you to hear this okay a red flag screaming neglect. Listen. He's horrible at brushing his teeth. He used a water pick we got him. He went brushed properly through the constant cavities in his braces.

So we ended up taking the wires out. At one time he had 13 cavities under the braces. The prosecution claims Crumbly failed on many occasions to repeatedly provide ordinary care for her son, including but not limited to providing mental health care. The prosecution argued it was clear that he needed help and that he asked for it. under his braces. Okay, I know we're talking about a mass school shooting. I've been to many mass murder scenes myself. I know how horrible they are.

The state is arguing Ethan Crumley's parents totally neglected him, including his cries for help. Is he guilty? Oh, yeah, he's guilty. Are they guilty? Oh, yeah, they're guilty. Cassidy Johncox is joining me, senior digital news editor from clickondetroit.com. Cassidy, 13 cavities. They let this child's mouth

get in that bad of a shape. And remember she said one time he had 13 cavities. Really? What happened the other times? I mean, on the stand, what evidence came out that the parents didn't have time for him? The mom's too busy having an affair with the fire chief. I mean, what do we know about his cries for help? He tried to tell his parents that he wanted to shoot up the school. That's true, Nancy. So prosecutors introduced a ton of evidence throughout this case. And we saw the journal evidence written by the shooter saying that he had asked his parents for help repeatedly. He could not get help for his mental health. No one was listening to him. He also shared text messages with a friend saying, I asked my parents for help for his mental health. No one was listening to him. He also shared text messages with a friend saying, I asked my parents for help and I'm struggling. And in court, when Jennifer

Crumbly testified on her own behalf, she said those conversations did not happen. She never told her son he could not receive help. But she also said that there has never been an instance where she had secured help for her son. Joining me, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining us. You can find her at drbethanymarshall.com. Dr. Bethany, I'm not saying Ethan Crumley is innocent because he's not. He murdered his classmates and he will be in jail the rest of his life. But I'm not done yet. Way in. There is no way in H-E-L-L that this mom and dad had no idea that their son was at a crisis point and his answer

was to shoot at the school with the gun they gave him. Nancy, there's three forms of abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse, and neglect. Neglect in my field, this kid was neglected. Neglect is considered a worse form of abuse than physical or sexual. And the reason for that is that when you're hit by your parents, at least you know you exist.

When they don't talk to you, when they don't provide medical care, when they do hit by your parents, at least you know you exist. When they don't talk to you and they don't provide medical care, when they do not return your texts, you no longer feel like a person. You're an it. So no wonder a kid like that is primed with other mental health issues to go and shoot up a school because this is this one moment of determining and sending a signal to the world, I exist. I can shoot people. I can kill them. I am a person. Cassidy John Coggs, jumping off what Dr. Bethany Marshall just said. Cassidy is joining

us from clickondetroit.com. Cassidy, wasn't there a text that Ethan Crumley sent his mom to the effect, can't you even just respond? Can't you just text me back? Yes, he did. He had sent several text messages to her saying things like, I'm seeing demons. The house is haunted. Things are flying around the room. And she never responded. And so he sent another text in secession saying, can you please just respond to me? And prosecutors really made a point of that thing. You know, why wouldn't you respond to these messages? And when Jennifer Crumbly took the stand, she said, these were just jokes between our family.

These conversations about ghosts in the house. We all fed into it and we all, you know, named the jokes, named the ghosts. Boris Johnson. Yes, I know. Yes. But what type of text was he sending? What was he saying? And it's a sad day when the only way you can talk to your mom is through a text. Yeah, I text with my children all day long.

They're not supposed to have their phones at school, but sometimes they look in between classes. I hope it's between classes. And I respond immediately. I'm happy when I see that they've texted me. But it seems like that's the only communications they were having. And the mom wouldn't even text back. service was in and out. That was part of her defense. So she claimed that, you know, she could not respond in certain instances. And then she gave him a call back apparently after those texts that he sent, can you please just respond? But it was a short call and, you know, one we'd haven't heard. Listen, Brian Malosh was a longtime friend of Crumbly who also had an affair with her in 2021. He testified about his relationship with Jennifer Crumbly.

After Ethan Crumbly opened fire inside the school, Jennifer Crumbly texted Malosh that the massacre, quote, could have been prevented. The message was revealed in court. Crumbly also texted him about the school's response to Ethan's disturbing doodle of a mass shooting and the fact that a teacher caught Ethan Crumbly searching for ammunition online on his phone. Crumbly described the school's attitude about

these incidences as nonchalant. crime stories with nancy grace the mom apparently was more concerned about her sex affair with a fireman how did that get into evidence cassidy john cox well actually nancy it wasn't supposed to be brought into evidence um the judge had declared many, many months ago that the topic of the mother's extramarital affair was not going to be part of this trial and that it would, you know, create a prejudice among the jury. And so it actually came out in the middle of trial when Brian Malosh was testifying and he was introduced initially as a friend. And after conversations, you know, the defense was asking a line of questioning that the prosecutor said, we're getting dangerously close to announcing to this jury that, you know, there is an affair between these two people. And the defense, after some conversation with the judge, they ultimately decided we're going to let this out.

We're going to air it all out and let everyone know all the truth. We have nothing to hide. Listen, Mr. Walsh, we were talking about the three different times that you spoke to police, correct? It's fair that from the very beginning, the first time you talked to police, you told police that you and Mrs. Crumbly had had an extramarital affair, correct? Right. You told police from the very beginning your relationship with Mrs. Crumbly involved a sexual relationship, correct? Correct. And so when you're in here testifying,

it's fair to say that law enforcement talked to you about the affair right after the shooting. You told them all about it, right? Yes. I'm sorry. Yes. Well, Kathleen Murphy joining me, veteran trial lawyer in family law. That sounds cozy, right? It's not. Joining me out of North Carolina at TriangleDivorceLawyers.com. Kathleen Murphy, that was a big screw up. That's like a bomb in the courtroom. You don't have enough time for your son who's begging for help, but you got time to sling

up with your boyfriend. They're married. How did the defense attorney think that that was okay information to let into evidence? I do not know, but I know Kathleen Murphy would have fought tooth and nail to keep that out. But I don't care who's sleeping with who and who's cheating on who. None of my business don't care unless it has something to do with this crime. And it does because Cheryl McCollum, isn't it correct that the day Ethan Crumley opened fire and murdered his classmates. 15 years old, he was called to the principal's office. I believe a teacher had seen some of his drawings or something he had drawn or written that suggested he was going to shoot somebody.

Correct. They go to the office. They call the parents. The parents come over, and the mom is texting back and forth with her lover about their plans to get together and have sex. I don't know that they ever did that day, but I know that that's what she was focused on. Nancy, she goes to the school and sees a drawing of the very gun they bought him. And on that same paper, he had written the words, help me. She is at the school for 11 minutes, 11 minutes with five adults in the room. Nancy, you and I the other day had a

conversation about you vacuuming it up after the guinea pigs that lasted longer than 11 minutes. Yes. It is beyond insane that somebody could see their child write the words, help me and not have their whole world stop until they understood what do you need from me? What can I do for you right now? Cheryl, I know I sound angry. I am angry. I'm angry not just because Ethan Crumley needed help and he was completely ignored. But I got to tell you, you know, I don't really care who sleeps with who as long as it's not my husband. I don't care but the fact that she's more worried about hooking up with her lover when her son is drawing pictures of mass shootings and writing please help me and she leaves I'm sad about that I'm angry about that what I'm angry about that. What I'm more upset about is because of this, those children are dead.

Like every day, John, Dave and Lucy go to school. I think they're safe. Think about these parents, Cheryl, that get the call. There's a school shooting and they look and they look and they wait for their child to come running out to their arms. And they never come and they never come and they never come. And everybody's leaving and their child hasn't come out yet. What about that? While mommy's out banging it with her lover, her son is preparing a school shooting. And he told them every way he could.

He flat wrote it. He said it. And here's the thing. They had him. Five adults had him in a room with that backpack. One adult even said, man, it's really heavy. The mom knew he had access to a gun. They're looking at a drawing of a gun.

He had said, I'm going gonna have to shoot up the school. I can't get these images out of my head. Every single parent that lost a child and had a child harmed by Ethan. I don't know how you get past it, knowing that five adults had him and could have stopped it within minutes of it occurring. Cheryl McCollum and Cassie Johncox joining us from clickondetroit.com are exactly correct. All the warning signs were there. I don't know what else it would have taken other than the journal to jump up and bite the mom and dad on the neck. And I just want you to hear this. I'm talking about the mom because she's the one that went

on trial. It's daddy's turn next. And guess what he has said after mommy's convicted quote, it's a systemic issue because of poor school oversight and slow response times to the mass shootings. Is he kidding me? He's blaming slow response times by the police to a mass shooting that his son did and systemic issues of poor school oversight. Talk about oversight. My rear end man, you're going down. You might as well try to cut a deal right now, Ethan Cromley's dad, because you are going to jail, man, for a long time. Don't believe me? Listen. Listen to Lieutenant Timothy Willis on the stand. In reading the journal, were there

passages in there indicative of requests for mental health help? Yes. The shooter writes, I have zero help for my mental problems and it's causing me to shoot up the school. Did you hear that, Cassie John Cox? I have zero help for my mental problems and it's causing me to shoot up the f***ing school. His words, not mine. Those words were in his journal prior to the school shooting. That's correct. And the parents have both said that they did not see the journal. They had no idea that their son was writing these things and that they had, or at least the mother testified recently,

that she had no indication, no reason to believe that her son was unwell mentally, that he required help. Dr. Bethany Marshall, I hear parents say, I don't want to violate their privacy. B.S. The first thing I did when I found out Lucy had a journal was read it. And that's where I got the awful news that she wanted the babysitter to be her mommy because the babysitter didn't have any rules and she could do whatever she wanted to. After I had a word with Miss Michelle, okay, of course you should read the journal. Of course she should read the journal. Parenting 101. But the fact that she didn't read the journal means that she's disinterested in him. That's what it

tells you. It's not just poor parenting. It's neglect. It's lack of interest. And you know that father's statement that it's the school official's fault? If he is so unempathic towards the slain students, towards their families, imagine how unempathic and disinterested he was in his own child. It gives us insight into what was happening in that home. And one more quick thing, Nancy, school shooters always write about it ahead of time. Oh, they do, don't they?

They do. Always. So how did the school officials overlook that? That's the number one warning sign of a shooter. They write about it. To Dr. Jeffrey Jensen joining us, very well-known professor of forensic pathology, director of autopsy and forensic services at University of Michigan Medical School, and a former medical examiner in Milwaukee County. Of course, never a

lack of business. I'm sad to say. Dr. Jensen, thank you for being with us. Got a question for you. You heard the sound. I don't want to play any other sound from the killings because I don't think I can bear to hear it. But you heard the students barricaded in a room. And when they finally decide they're going to run out, they don't know if they're running straight into a shooter, straight into bullets. Some of them are whimpering and, you know, you hear cries of fear as and they're all rushing out. Do you believe that these shooting victims, the students that were murdered that day, could have seen and understood what was happening around them. 16-year-old Tate Meyer, teen girl Madison Ballwell, Hannah St. Juliana, Justin Schilling.

The other six were wounded. You know, Nancy, one of the things forensic pathologists do is to opine on issues of pain and suffering. And, you know, you can almost anticipate that with the impending sense of doom and fear for their own lives, that all these children, the unfortunate victims, as well as the survivors are going to have pain and suffering with emotional anxiety and just a fear of their own death. I'm just imagining lying there, hearing all your classmates running and crying and screaming. And you know something horrible has happened.

I don't know what you can feel. I don't know if the children knew they had been shot. I guess they did. Go ahead, doctor. Yeah, this is a classic case of medical neglect. Forensic pathologists see forms of medical neglect in a number of different kind of cases. And I typically sign these out as homicides. But in this case, you've got, you know, the actual victim, one of the victims is still alive. You know, you grieve for the four children that were shot. But the other victim is this child who is denied medical care and basically his life is over too with a life sentence without parole.

His life is gone too. It is, Dr. Jensen. It is. I'm thinking back on what we're hearing, but there's more. There is more in this journal. Take a listen. Were there any journal entries about the shooter's access to the 9mm handgun? There were. The shooter writes, first off, I got my gun. It's a SP-2022 6-star 9mm. Second, the shooting is tomorrow. I have access to the gun and the ammo. I am fully committed to this now. So yeah, I'm going to prison for life

and many people have about one day left to live. That's really tragic. That's the smoking gun, so to speak. Yes, it is. And when I think about a Sig Sauer-2022 9mm being unleashed on children walking from class to class, and he details all of this and so much more in the journal, and there's more. You're hearing Lieutenant Timothy Willis on the stand. Listen. Page 5. Can you read this passage, please? In this one, the shooter writes, I want help, but my parents don't listen to me and I can't get any help. Shooter writes, my parents won't listen to me about help or therapists. My parents won't listen to me about help or a therapist and more. Sir, in that journal, were there entries about the shooter's desire to

obtain a 9mm handgun? Yes. The shooter writes, I want to shoot up the school so badly. Soon, I'm going to buy a 9mm pistol. Sir, were there any passages regarding the shooter's plan for the actual shooting?

Yes, there were. The shooter writes, I'm about to shoot up the school and spend the rest of my life in prison. I don't know how it could have been any more plain than it was if the parents had even bothered to look in the journal. Joining me now is an expert in school security. Elisa Mueller is joining us. Expert and advocate in child and school safety and security. Lisa, thank you for being with us. One question, when the teachers see, and this actually happened at my twins elementary school

in a different grade, a younger grade, a third grade little girl was writing on her papers about shooting people and hanging people, they immediately took her to the principal's office, called the parents over and got her in counseling immediately. So my question is, if the school was afraid or concerned, and they even said like Cheryl McCullen pointed out, wow, this backpack is heavy. I mean, don't they know about Parkland, for Pete's sake? Could they have called police themselves? I mean, the kids writing about shooting up the school. They absolutely could have called police themselves.

They could have taken a look in his book bag. You know, they could have reported his parents in terms of neglect. I'd like to see if there were any reports on behalf of this school to alert anyone of the distress this child was in and maybe put him in some level of a program with the school. Nowadays, they didn't have this years ago, but nowadays there's some sort of standard in most schools. In fact, this sort of came about with the Obama administration, that they implement a certain level of training for bullying, anti-bullying, any sort of troubled situation like this. So what did the school do? That's my number one question.

And to you, Cassidy Johncox, joining us, click on Detroit.com. What, if anything, did the school do? Well, as far as we know, Nancy, the school, there are several teachers who were alerted to some strange behavior by the shooter in the weeks and the days leading up to the shooting. And it got to the point where eventually the counselor decided to call in the mother and the father the day of the shooting when they found that math assignment with the violent drawings and the phrases that saying the voices won't stop help me. But the school, the counselor testified that he had intended the next day if the shooter didn't get help with mental health within 48 hours like he had asked the parents to do, he was going to call Child Protective Services the next morning if nothing had changed. That is as far as we know what they were planning to do in that situation. Planning. So they were talking about what they were going to do and they never did anything? That's so terrible because writing about the crime is the precursor to doing it.

You don't want to wait 48 hours. When they get to the point where they're acting strange and it sounds like he was also fragmenting, he was delusional, he has to be yanked out right away. He has to be put on a 5250, which is an involuntary 72-hour hold. That is when you hold somebody involuntarily because they're a danger to self or others. That was the easiest, most immediate solution, not calling the parents even in at that point. Calling 911. Can I jump in? Yes, please. His complete shooting spree lasted nine minutes. You give him 48 hours, how much more destruction could there have been? Speaking of ignoring his cries for help. You earlier heard the mom describing 13 cavities under his braces before he was taken to the dentist. Well, listen to this.

My son, he had one bedroom and it got out of control. And every time I go to clean that, I just shut the door. I just didn't want to deal with it. So then I told him he could just use the gas bedroom so I could get his room to be clean. Okay, hold on. Whoa. I'm not sure why I know that this is really wrong, Dr. Bethany Marshall. You may need to guide me through this year of the shrink. But I know when your child's room is so disgusting, you don't make him clean up his room. No, you don't clean up his room. You just shut the door and leave it for weeks and months on end and say, Hey, go stay in the

guest room until I can get that thing deep cleaned and then do nothing. Okay. There's something really wrong with that. And what does it have to do with the school shooting? Cause I'm going to have to think it through. I know it does because she's disparaging her own child from the stand. She's she's blaming him and saying that he had this horrible bedroom. And sometimes teenagers do. And sometimes if it's just a bit of a mild mess, you walk by and you shut the door. But this was a serious, serious mess. Would you ever degrade or devalue your own child in front of a jury in a courtroom? In front of anyone? No. That's what we're hearing. No, that's what's wrong. That's what you're neglect. Instead of saying, son, I will help you. Let's go in your room. It's disgusting

doing that, doing it yourself and complaining bitterly, but instead just shutting the door and going, hey, go stay in the guest bedroom. There's something neglectful and wrong with that. Do you know how many parents in my office complain that their children throw all their clothes on the floor? They try on every outfit in the closet before they go to school. These are normal things. And what happens is the parent takes it to therapy because they love their child. They're concerned and they want to know the best approach for dealing with it. How about pick up your clothes or I'm taking your cell phone. Just a suggestion. Okay. The fact that his room was so messy is one of the signs of his fragmentation that he was, he was falling

apart and becoming delusional. and she should have explored that. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. One of the jurors stated that a big factor in their guilty verdict was that the mother, Ethan Crumley's mother, Jennifer Crumley, was the last adult to touch the gun that they know of. But she didn't just touch the gun. She gave him the gun. Listen. Oakland County Assistant Prosecutor Matt Keist points out that even though Jennifer Crumbly knew her son, Ethan Crumbly, had a deteriorating mental health crisis, growing social isolation, and that even though at 15, Ethan Crumbly could not buy a handgun by himself, his parents still gifted him the gun, the gun he used in the school shooting. Okay, I don't know a lot, but when one of my children,

or I can tell if they're sad or they're angry or they're upset, I don't want them to go off and be alone. Because, for instance, I'm afraid my son's frustration level will get worse. Or my daughter, is she going to sit alone in her bathroom and cry? I don't want that to happen. The last thing you want to give an upset her bathroom and cry. I don't want that to happen. The last thing you want to give an upset teen is a gun. I mean, can I get an amen on that from anybody on this panel? A gun? I'll give you an amen on that. And I'll give you one more thing. Most states,

and I believe the state of Michigan, would have required someone in the household to have gone for gun safety training courses before they could even purchase a weapon. How is it that this mother knowing or not knowing for that matter, the mental state of her child just handing over a gun? Did she have to go for that training? You're hearing Elisa Mueller joining us, child and school safety security expert. Kathleen Murphy giving a distraught teen a gun. Really? Nancy, I have a child who's 17, a boy, more introverted, and he plays airsoft. Even with his airsoft utensils, guns, whatever you want to call them. They're not real guns. I monitor what's going on. I know where they are. I know how he's doing. I know what his mental state is.

This is gross negligence. It's not just negligence. It's gross, extreme negligence. This poor kid did not have a chance. Nor did the murder victims. Let me just point that out. They're just walking from class to class in school and get gunned down by Ethan Crumley. But of course, now the parents are doing this, blaming each other. Take a listen to Jennifer Crumley on the stand. On this receipt, this gun was purchased by James Crumbly, correct? Yes. The receipt does not have Jennifer Crumbly's name? No.

And when this gun was purchased, James Crumbly was accompanied by a teenage boy and no one else, correct? Correct. Jennifer Crumbly's attorney, Shannon Smith, argues that Jennifer knows nothing about guns and puts the blame on Ethan's father, James Crumbly. Smith points out that Jennifer Crumbly did take her son to a shooting range, but she didn't know what she was doing and she wasn't the one to buy the handgun. It was James Crumbly that bought the gun. During his guilty plea, Ethan Crumbly said that he gave his father the money to buy the handgun. It was James Crumbly that bought the gun. During his guilty plea, Ethan Crumbly said that he gave his father the money to buy the handgun that he later used to kill four and wound seven at Oxford High School. Okay, Cassidy Johncox joining me. He's been on the

trial from the very beginning in that jurisdiction. She's at clickondetroit.com. Cassidy, it sounds like the mom and the defense attorney are trying to do their best, depending on the dad, for going and buying the gun. And, yes, he is at fault. He is. It's on video. But the only way they could get away with that is to claim the mom had no idea her son had a gun. And she clearly did know he had a gun. Yeah, Nancy.

So what they're doing here, the defense, they are definitely pointing fingers at each other in these two different trials. The mother said when she took the stand at her trial that she had absolutely no hand in the gun. She it was up to her husband to store them, to hide them, to lock them. She didn't feel comfortable. She just left that all to her husband. So she essentially put that all on him. And then she said on the, um, a few days before the shooting, she and her son went to the gun range with that new gun, that nine millimeter they had just purchased. And when they returned home, she left the gun in the trunk of her car. And then her husband was going to come and take it out and put it in the home when he got home from work. So that's what she said happened. She said she didn't see her

husband, remove the gun from the car and put it in the house and hide it like he said he would, but he said that he did. And so that was one of the things that the jury really focused on, they said, was what really hammered this conviction home for them was that Jennifer Crumbly was the last known person to have her hands on that gun. I want you to hear what we learned about the day Ethan Crumbly was called to the principal's office in 53. Hours before the shooting occurred, Jennifer and James Crumbly were called to the school because of the mass shooting doodle Ethan had drawn. Also, his online searches for ammo while in school had frightened a teacher. The counselor said Jennifer or James Crumbly could take Ethan home that morning, but they both claimed they

were too busy at work and could not take him home that day. James Crumbly was too busy with his DoorDash job, and Jennifer was so busy that she notified Brian she could meet up with him. Wait a minute. Is Brian the lover, Cassidy? Yes, he is, Nancy. So after meeting with the principal about the disturbing notes and drawings about shootings, she doesn't take the son home, but she writes her lover to say, yeah, we'll meet up later. Yeah, as far as we know, she shared a lot of intimate text messages with Brian, but she did return to work that day after the meeting. Listen. Did you feel like you were taking the position of I am leaving him at school whether he can

be here or not? No, absolutely not. Okay. Were you surprised or were you not surprised? Did you have any feelings about whether or not he could stay at school? I didn't really. I thought the advice that they were giving us was a good advice. We talked about him being sad, and then he said being around peers usually helps.

We all agreed to that. My son gets very stressed out when he goes virtual school, so we agreed that it might stress him out more to do his school remotely the rest of the day. But there was never a time where I would refuse to take him home. I could easily, if he wanted to go, take him with me. I had no issues with that. Not only that, after their son is arrested, the parents drain the bank account and go on the run.

Listen. The Oakland shooter, the kid, has the two parents that are on the run. Listen. The Oakland shooter, the kid has the two parents that are on the run right now. And they said, you know, Oakland County said, call if you see anything. And I just want to go park my car and switch it around at my office and at my office. And there was a Kia and it looked like their car. And I walked around and checked the license plate and it's their car, and the woman is here next to the car. The woman is where? Sitting next to her car in the parking lot. Citizens were asked to be on the lookout for Ethan Crumley's parents, and sure enough,

that caller calls 911 to state, I see her. She's right there with her Kia, and take a listen to the mom trying to explain this under cross-examination. You don't deny that you had $6,000 in cash in your purse the night you were arrested? No. You don't deny that your purse with the cash and four cell phones were in a plastic tote? Correct. You don't deny that that plastic tote was contained in a different plastic tote? Correct.

You don't deny that your backpack with clothing items was found in a different plastic tote in a different area of that studio. Correct. Yeah. Mommy goes on the run after draining all the money out of the account. Dad on the run, too. The jury heard that. Evidence of flight is allowed in front of the jury to show frame of mind, course of conduct. Evidence of guilt.

Jennifer Crumley, guilty. Two down, one to go. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.