Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - SCHOOL SHOOTER PARENTS PRISON-DODGE GASLIGHT COURT

Episode Date: April 19, 2024

As James and Jennifer Crumbley awaited sentencing for their conviction for involuntary manslaughter, both sought to avoid jail. Their son Ethan Crumbley is serving life in prison for the school rampage where four were killed and seven others were injured. The gun used was given to the teen as a birthday present by his parents. James, convicted of involuntary manslaughter, asked the judge for "time served" and Jennifer asked the judge to let her serve her time on house arrest in a guest house at her attorney's home. Oakland County Prosecutor Marc Keast has recommended 10-to-15-year jail sentences for both Jennifer and her husband, James. While James was in jail,  damning phone conversations surfaced in which Crumbley had allegedly threatened Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald. In a call from October 9, 2023, five months before the trial, Crumbley says, “Yeah, Karen McDonald, you’re going down. … Go ahead, record this call. Send it to Karen McDonald. Tell her how James Crumbley is going to f------ take her down." In a call on December 23, 2023, Crumbley says, “There will be retribution, believe me."  The threats were bad enough that Crumbley's jail communication privileges were revoked during his trial.  Neither received the sentence they asked for. Joining Nancy Grace Today:  Jarrett Ferentino – Homicide Prosecutor in Pennsylvania and Host of, “True Crime Boss” Podcast; Facebook & Instagram: Jarrett Ferentino Tom Smith – Former NYPD Detective, Co-Host of the “GOLD SHIELDS” Podcast; FB & Instagram: @thegoldshieldshow  Dr. Shari Schwartz – Forensic Psychologist (Specializing in Capital Mitigation and Victim Advocacy); Author: “Criminal Behavior” and “Where Law and Psychology Intersect: Issues in Legal Psychology;” X: @TrialDoc” Dr. Kendall Crowns – Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth) and Lecturer: University of Texas Austin and Texas Christian University Medical School Lauren Conlin – Investigative Journalist, Host of The Outlier Podcast, and also Host of “Corruption: What Happened to Grant Solomon; X- @Conlin_Lauren/ Instagram- @LaurenEmilyConlin/YouTube- @LaurenConlin4  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Notorious school shooter Ethan Crumley opens fire, gunning down four other students, riddling seven others with bullets. His parents gaslight the courtroom in their bid to dodge prison. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us. You say you wouldn't do anything different. Well that really says on what type of parents you are because there's a lot of things I would do different. But the one thing I would have wanted to be different

was to take that bullet that day so she could continue to live the life she deserved. You are hearing victim's mom, Nicole Bousselet, speaking out in court. This as the parents of notorious school shooter Ethan Crumley tries their best to dodge prison. Now, as you know, they ignored one warning sign after the next. As a matter of fact, the day of the shooting, claiming the lives of four high school students, gunning down seven others, they're actually at the school that day because somebody has found their son's notes claiming, help me. I see blood pictures of where he has drawn guns. They gave him a gun knowing that he was having homicidal ideation. In the courtroom, the victim's parents boiling over with rage

as they try to make sense of the parents claiming they had nothing to do with it. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now. And first, I want to go out to Lauren Conlon, who's been on the story from the very beginning, investigative journalist and host of the Outlier podcast. What happened in court, Lauren? Nancy, this was absolutely disgraceful. I was completely disgusted by Jennifer and James Crumbly. These two banding together against their son, completely distancing themselves from their son, placing all of the blame on him, nothing on themselves. And it goes back to what Madison's mother said.

You are not a good parent. Any parent would take the blame for their child. They would have some accountability. So this behavior was absolutely disgusting. James Crumbly, I mean, when he tried to say something, oh, yeah, we're going to get to the truth. It's like, don't you dare. Don't you dare right now say that you want the truth. OK, I mean, it was sick to me.

I'm sick to my stomach even speaking about it. This is a landmark moment in court. Let me go to high profile lawyer Jarrett Ferentino, former homicide prosecutor, Jarrett Ferentino dot com. Jarrett, thank you so much for being with us. Jarrett, never in the history of the U.S. or anywhere else, based on my research, have parents been held liable for what their child did, a criminal act, a criminal act. I don't mean you give your child a car at age 18, age 17, and they go crash into somebody and cause damage. All right. You can be sued, right, civilly. But this is a criminal case. This has never happened before. You're correct, Nancy. And this is the case these parents set the table for this incident. They ignored Ethan's cries for help, which is why the judge should ignore the cries for help from Jennifer and James in asking for leniency in their sentence. The cocktail of actions and inactions

here, without their failures, you would not have had this shooting. They gave James the gun. They allowed him access to that firearm. They ignored his mental health issues. They ignored his journal writings. All of that together, Nancy, as you know, rise to recklessness and a criminal negligence where death is a foreseeable result. And that's exactly why this case can stand as a shining example that a failure of parents to ignore those kinds of warning signs can result in criminal liability.

What exactly happened? Take a listen. Honestly, Judge, I don't have the words to describe how horrific that was that happened on November the 30th. It depicted just before 12.51 p.m. This defendant entering a bathroom with a backpack. A minute or two later, he exited the same bathroom without a backpack but with a gun in hand. At that point, he methodically and deliberately walked down the hallway, aiming the firearm at students and firing. Right outside the bathroom, he began firing the judge. After children started running away from the defendant, he continued down the hallway,

again at a deliberate and methodical pace, pointing and aiming inside classrooms and at students who hadn't had the opportunity to escape. This continued on for four or approximately five minutes. The defendant went to another bathroom. As deputies arrived, he set the firearm down and he surrendered. There were so many warning signs. And isn't it true to Lauren Conlon that that very day when the parents are summoned to the school

because the principal's worried about Ethan Crumley's homicidal ideations, his desire to gun people down, drawing blood, writing the words, blood everywhere, help me,

I want to shoot people. And he brings a gun to school, a gun that they gave him. Crazy. Yeah. That very day, isn't it true that mom, who is a love rat, that's a nice way of putting it, was caught up in a sex affair with somebody else. And she was trying to arrange a meeting, a tryst. Yes, absolutely.

So they were called into the school. They are being shown these drawings of guns and blood and Ethan's writing saying, my life is useless. The thoughts won't stop. Please help me. And the school essentially said, you need to take him out of here and get him help. And now it was said Jennifer was having this affair. All she cared about was this affair, her boyfriend and her horses.

And meanwhile, Ethan is exhibiting this absolutely terrible, terrible behavior. He's crying out for help. I mean, it was said Jennifer Crumbly was a huge drinker. There was 18 bottles of whiskey or something like that purchased. Ethan had a bottle of that whiskey in his bedroom, Nancy. That is not okay. This is a 15-year-old boy. And additionally, he had called her on occasion, texted her saying, I'm seeing demons.

Clothes are being strewn around the house. Can you please come home? She doesn't respond. She's with her boyfriend. He texts again. Can you please at least respond to me? So yeah, leading up to this and the day of, it's just unacceptable. And I want to add one more thing. Jennifer Crumbly in the

courtroom did not even stand her butt up and face the parents who lost their children. You know, another thing happened in court and I want to analyze the actual words. Now, this is as the four dead students, parents and families are there to see the sentencing and families of the seven other students that were gunned down but managed to survive. They're all in there. OK, and this is what the dad said. I'm sorry for your loss as a result of what my son did. I cannot express how much I wish I had known what was going on with him or what was going to happen, but I absolutely would have done a lot of things differently. Now, the mom on on the other hand, says this could be any parent up here in my shoes. She says she would not have done anything differently.

So you see both of them refusing to acknowledge any responsibility. Mommy was in such a hurry to get out of that principal's office and go hop in the sack with some lover, some married lover, I think he was. I don't care. I don't care who's sleeping with who. I care about this school shooting and these victims' families. And they're in court hearing what is supposed to be an elocution. That means when the defendant who has under no duty to speak in a court of law under the fifth amendment right to remain silent decides to get up and elocute fancy word for speak. All right. With no cross examination. So they can say whatever they want to, man, I would like to take

a bite out of their ear in and chew them up because in court they say we're not perfect, but yeah, you can say that again. I mean, when you hear what led up to this, taking their son to a shooting range, letting him practice with all of his homicidal desires, knowing about it, ignoring it. Listen, I'm not saying it as well as the victim's family said it. And just imagine, you know, you can't, Veritino will agree with this, you can't ask a jury under the law to put themselves in the shoes of the victim. Okay, you can't do that.

But this, there was no jury here. This is in front of the judge at sentencing. Can you imagine these parents, their children are at school. Like I, my children at school every day, they never miss school. And I think everything's okay. Right? For these parents to get that call, there's a school shooting, and your child is dead? Listen to this victim's mom. You say you wouldn't do anything different. Well, that really says on what type of parents you are, because there's a lot of things I would do different. But the one thing I would have wanted to be different was to take that bullet that day so she could continue to live the life she deserved. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

I've got to go out to our shrink. I need a shrink right now. Dr. Sherry Schwartz, forensic psychologist and author of Criminal Behavior, Where Law and Psychology Intersect. Dr. Sherry, thank you for being with us. Did you hear what Ms. Bousselet said? She said, quote, you, and she's talking to the mom, you say you wouldn't do anything different. Well, that really tells me what kind of parents you are, because there's a lot of things I would do differently. But the one thing I would have wanted to be different was to take that bullet that day so my daughter could continue to live. I mean, I'm just thinking of these parents and, you know, I thought I knew all about

grief. Dr. Sherry, my fiance, was murdered shortly before our wedding. But now that I've got the twins, I didn't know what grief was. Can you imagine a mother up there and all she can do now for her murdered daughter is give this plea in court for maximum sentence. Can you just even imagine being in her shoes? I cannot imagine it. And to hear her speak and talk about how she would literally change places with her daughter. This is what, not only what we expect of parents, but something biological that happens. Something that says, I'm going to take all of the bad things that I can remove from my child's life so that they don't have to feel pain. Because as a parent, I know what it is to feel pain. And you don't want your children to suffer. But crumblies don't suffer from that disease clearly they had

so many opportunities to help their son and to remove his pain and to do things that they could do to help him to become better to become well adjusted and every chance that they had they turned their back dr sherry i want to be very clear. Ethan Crumley was not deemed to be legally insane. Correct. In our jurisprudence in the U.S., which we brought over from Great Britain, there is the old McNaughton test. That's what it's called, the old McNaughton test. Very simply put, did you know right from wrong at the time of the incident? I don't mean your crazy insanity defense you cooked up once you're arrested.

I mean at the time of the offense. That's the insanity test, the litmus test. He hid his actions. He hid the gun. He went in the bathroom undercover, hid, armed himself, came out and shot everyone very methodically. He knew exactly what he was doing. He was not insane. So when we say help him, it's help him not bring a gun to school and shoot it up. And as far as what the parents knew, I want you to listen to the 911 call that Mr. Crumbly made as soon as he heard there had been a shooting.

Oh, yeah. He knew what was going down. Listen. there's an active shooter situation going on at my school. My son goes to high school. I have a missing gun at my house. I need an officer to come to my house right away, please. Okay, I'm not going to be able to send anybody to your house right now. So they're not the active shooter situation. I understand that there's a missing character.

I have a missing gun, and my son goes to high school. And we have a good meet with the counselor this morning because of something that he wrote on a desk paper. And then I was in jail and I saw a whole bunch of cops somewhere. And I wanted to get to the high school high school students out of the high school. And then I'm telling them there was not the shooter. And then I wait for them to find out. And I see my son. I don't know. I don't know what's going on.

I'm really tricky. I'm trying to make it even more complicated. In a landmark ruling, a landmark verdict, Crumley's parents are going to jail. Don't cry too much. Their sentence was 5 to 15, something like that, on involuntary manslaughter, they will most likely grid out at about three, three, maybe four years behind bars max for four dead students, seven others gunned down in the hallways of the high school. What do I mean when I say grid out? To you, Jarrett Fiorentino, for instance, if you get a theft by shoplifting conviction and you're sentenced to 15 years behind bars maximum, okay, what does that mean? Nothing.

Because pardon and parole and the grid system treats a theft by shoplifting much more leniently than it would, say, an aggravated assault or an involuntary manslaughter. Involuntary is treated more leniently than an aggravated battery or an involuntary manslaughter. Involuntary is treated more leniently than an aggravated battery or murder. So an involuntary manslaughter, even though you get a sentence of 10 to 15, you're probably going to grit out by pardon and parole at three or four years. That's the harsh truth. I don't like it, but that's the truth. And Nancy, look, the end result of their actions, our children are dead. And I've had cases like this and the sentences are shockingly low. But we're stuck with our hands are tied with the law and what the law calls for and the sentencing guidelines call for. Looking at all of the intentional acts and the negligent

acts that the Crumbly's committed here, this is woefully below what they should serve. But again, this is the first case of its kind. They didn't get away with what they did. And we have to focus on, Ethan got life. He's the killer here, but they're being held accountable for their behavior, although it's just not going to be enough. You're right. They will likely grit out at the minimum. I mean, can we just get real for one moment, Farantino? And let's go to Tom Smith, former NYPD detective, co-host of the Gold Shields podcast.

And you can find him at thegoldshieldshow.com. Tom, can we just speak candidly? No sugarcoating, no airbrushing the truth. The parents were part of this. I consider them co-conspirators. They know their son is having homicidal ideation. That's's fancy talk for he's considering shooting things up. He wants to kill people. Homicide. They know that. They claim they're going to hire a deep cleaner because they won't clean his room or make him clean the room.

This kid's teeth, his mouth is full of cavities underneath braces. They're letting his mouth is full of cavities underneath braces. They're letting his mouth rot. They're letting him draw all these homicidal drawings. They're doing nothing. And what do they do? They gift him with a cig, a cig sour nine And they take him to practice shooting. I mean, listen, my son, John David, he's a sharpshooter. How do I know that? Because he learned it in scouts in a controlled environment. He doesn't have access to a gun to take it to school. They train this kid to shoot down a target with a person as a target.

They know he's dreaming. And I mean, not just at night, but during the day he's planning and fantasizing about killing people. They call the parents to the school and say, take him home now. They don't. And he shoots up the school. Have you ever seen anything like it? You know, like in other cases, the parents claim to have no knowledge. Hey, we didn't know what was going on. We didn't know our kid was making a bomb in the garage. Here, they knew exactly what was going on. Yeah, what they did was they empowered them. You know, they knew everything what was going on. Yeah, what they did was they empowered him. You know, they knew everything that was going on.

They accepted it and didn't, they weren't parents. They were, they blew it off and figured it'll work itself out. And they empowered him by giving him a gun and showing him how to use it. He had the targets hanging in his bedroom. I mean, there's only so much you can look over. Listen, no parent wants to accept the fact that their child may have a mental health issue. But when it comes to this, there has to be consequences to your non-actions with a situation like this,

especially a school shooting causing the death of four individuals and, you know, seven other shots. Hey, Tom, I got a question for you. There is a method. It takes about 10 seconds to do it. You're supposed to, of course, have your guns under lock and key in your home. But there is also a method. In addition to that, you can do a cable lock where you just wrap cable cord. You know, like when you go to Best Buy or something like that and they have their expensive electronics clamped down with a cable cord. I mean, you can pick it up and look at it, but you can't take it with you. There is a gun lock, a gun security lock, and it's a cable cord that you can't cut through and it takes literally 10 seconds, 10 seconds to secure the guns. It's making my head blow up thinking

about, you know what we haven't done Tom? We have not named the victims. We've talked a lot about the Crumleys, but the most important thing here are these victims. Think about it. Listen to their ages. Justin Schilling and Madison Baldwin. That's, you were hearing earlier, Nicole speaking, her daughter, both just 17. Tate Meyer, 16, the age of my twins. 14-year-old Hannah St. Juliana. Six other students shot at school and one teacher shot. When their families get to speak, they talk about how the shooting deaths still haunt them. I don't know how you ever get over, A, losing your child, but B, having them murdered. To Dr. Kendall Crowns,

joining us, special guest, Chief Medical Examiner, Tarrant County, that's Fort Worth. No lack of business there. And special lecturer at University of Texas Christian University Medical School. Dr. Kendall Crowns, about how many, if you had to estimate, autopsies have you performed? Probably close to like between 8,000, 9,000, somewhere in there. Wow. Have you ever been in a position where you have four young teen children, one as young as 14, just turned 14, by the way, come in for autopsy? Yes.

When you see that happen, is it different for you performing autopsies on children, especially homicide victims? Well, with children, it's always difficult because, you know, the potential of life being extinguished, etc. But it's still sad to me, any individual that's part of a homicide, be it a newborn or 100 years old, I still think it's unfortunate that their life was ended without their consent, basically. So it is harder when it's a child, but still, to me, all homicides are unfortunate situations. Dr. Crowns, I'm trying to think about what these children went through. They're at school having a normal day, and all of a sudden, they hear gunshots

ring out. They probably didn't know what it was at first first because our minds play tricks on us. We don't want to believe there's somebody shooting a gun down the hall at school. But having been shot and falling to the ground in the hallway and vaguely seeing, being aware of people running by, nobody's helping you. What would their last recollections have been like as they bled out? Could they focus on anything? Well, you know, you've been shot, so you're in pain, and then you're bleeding, so you're going to go into shock eventually. There'd be fear and panic and not really knowing what's going on.

Again, whatever's hit as well. If your legs are hit and you're not being able to walk, your spinal cord's compromised and you're paralyzed, all that can play into it and create more fear and more panic. And as you're bleeding out and slowly going unconscious, all you're seeing is there's no hope. Now, here's another issue the judge had to deal with at sentencing. When they realize what their son has done, what do they do?

Do they go to the school? Do they go to the parents of the victims and beg for forgiveness and try to console them? Oh, no. Oh, no. They go on the run. Listen. The Oakland shooter, the kid, has the two parents that are on the run right now. And they said, you know, Oakland County said, call if you see anything.

And I just want you to park my car and switch it around at my office and at my office. And there was a Kia and it looked like their car. And I walked around and checked the license plate. And it's their car. And the woman is here next to the car. The woman is where? Sitting next to her car in the parking lot. So the two of them go on the run while their son is being charged with four murders and seven aggravated assaults. Joining me, an all-star panel,

but I want to go to Jarrett Fiorentino, high-profile lawyer joining us, homicide prosecutor at JarrettFiorentino.com. Jarrett, you cannot have the judge in most jurisdictions now charge the jury, which is giving the jury the law by which they are to determine the case outcome. But the prosecutor can still argue it if they wish in closing arguments, which I, of course, would. And that is flight. So, Jarrett Fiorentino, when you see the police come up behind you on the interstate when you're speeding, do you gun it and take off at 110 mph? You might tap the brakes a tiny bit, but you don't run because you're not worried they're going to find a sawed-off shotgun in your trunk or a pound of pot. No. Flight is indicia of guilt.

You're correct, Nancy. It's consciousness of guilt. First of all, in this case, it's continued abandonment of Ethan. Okay. Ethan's in trouble. His parents take off. But also the jury could consider them taking off and fleeing shows they knew they had culpability and responsibility in this case for Ethan's actions. And there's an instruction that goes to the jury, as you know, that they're allowed as jurors to consider that flight in assessing whether the parents in this case are guilty or innocent. So it's a powerful piece of evidence in this case. Well, as a matter of fact,

Lauren Conlon, investigative journalist and host of The Outlier. Lauren, after the parents went on the run, the judge was so afraid they'd do it again. He put a $1 million bond on both of their heads. Describe for people that don't already know about it, how the parents took off. They left their son to fend for himself behind bars. They never made contact with the victim's families, nothing. And they go on the run. Yeah, they went on the run. And allegedly, Jennifer Crumbly sent text messages to people saying, we're on the run again. That was one text. And then another text she sent, she said, we're effed.

And she said the actual words. So, yeah, this is absolutely an admission of guilt here. And again, it's leaving your son to deal with this on his own. She also allegedly text Ethan, don't do it. Guys, the gaslighting in the courtroom, the audacity of these parents asking now for lenient treatment. I don't know if you know this or not, but the mom actually asked to serve her sentence living in somebody's house, living at home. But that said, what exactly did the dad ask the judge? Listen. Ethan Crumbly's father, James, convicted of involuntary manslaughter, is asking the judge

for time served. Oakland County Prosecutor Mark Keast has recommended 10 to 15 year jail sentences for both Jennifer and her husband James. Of James Crumbly, Keast said in his sentencing memo, defendants shameless lack of remorse and asking for time served as an appropriate sentence is a slap in the face to the severity of tragedy caused by his gross negligence to the victims and their families. Keast went on to say of James Crumbly, he has shown a chilling lack of remorse for his culpability in this matter. He has blamed everyone but himself and considers himself a martyr.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You've got the parents behind bars awaiting trial and they go, go ahead, F you, record my call. You're F'd up, woman, to the elected district attorney. Retribution is coming. Really? Retribution for you in court, but he actually was threatening to go after the lady prosecutor. You know, that old phrase, which I hate, Lauren Conlon, I hate. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Well, actually, true in this case. What did he say?

Well, I also want to point out as well, Jennifer Crumbly, what she stated was that she hated the prosecutor. She actually said the prosecutor's name once, and she said the victim's names once, I believe. And James Crumbly as well. He said the victim's names just once. They were so focused on themselves and their hatred of the prosecution. It was incredibly offensive.

And then going back to what you stated about Jennifer Crumbly wanting to serve out her sentence in her lawyer's guest house. I mean, her guest house is 10 miles away from Oxford, from where this shooting took place. Have you looked at girlfriend's outfits? I mean, I'm assuming that guest house is nice. She wants to live a cushy life serving out that sentence. And I am just disgusted. And then Buckmear, Tate's father, also had expressed a lot of frustration, not just with the Crumblys, but with the sheriff's office himself. And James Crumbly took that as an opportunity to say, yeah, hey, yeah,

let's look at the sheriff's office. Let's look at the school. Let's look for the truth. Anything to take the heat off them. And I just just like you said, I cannot imagine being the parents of the victims and having to watch that and see that no remorse whatsoever. You know, when a prosecutor or law enforcement is threatened, that in itself is a felony. It's called a terroristic threat under the law. And I want to go to Tom Smith, former NYPD detective and co-host of Gold Shields podcast. I guess you and Farantino will agree with me. I don't give a flying fig if a defendant hates me. In fact, I think I'd be mad if they didn't, because when I get through with them, I expect they will hate me. Fine. Hate me. So nobody cares. But when it gets to the level of threats, that's that's a whole

nother thing, Tom Smith. Now, listen, in a call made January 3, 2024, this just happened. James Crumley says, I am effed on a rampage, Karen. And he's talking about the elected lady prosecutor. Yes, Karen McDonald, your ass is going down and you better be effing scared. I'm very surprised they didn't prosecute him on a terroristic threat. The only thing that you miss, one element of terroristic threat, it's got to be communicated to the victim. And this was a recorded jailhouse call. So it just misses a terroristic threat.

But my point is, Tom, that this is their frame of mind. They're not going, oh, I can't eat. I can't sleep. It's my fault. These children are dead. And our son, our son is behind bars. I mean, I don't care what you do with me. Go ahead and kill me now. My son is behind bars and four children are dead. You don't hear any of that, Tom. No, no. It's the worst example of being so out of touch and unremorseful of something your son did and you empowered him

to do. I mean, it's disgraceful and disgusting to listen to. And you know what? Before I retired, I was involved in a case that we actually stopped the school shooting from happening six days before it happened. And when I hear cases like this, it really gets me because of the case I was involved in and we stopped it. But all throughout that time, it was always what could happen and who the victims could be and who the teachers could be affected by this. And if I look back on the case, we always thought that the mother had an inkling about what the son who we ended up arresting was going through. And if this case had happened before then, I might be entailed to charge her or at least talk to the DA even back then about charging her if this case had happened before our case.

And it's just disgusting what happened. You're hearing James Crumley, the father's comments behind bars about how he wants retribution against the prosecutor when his son is the one that shot up the school. But I want you to hear the mom ain't a lot better. Take a listen to this. My son, he had one bedroom and it got out of control. And every time I go to clean it, I just shut the door. I just didn't want to deal with it. So then I told him he could just use the guest bedroom until I could get his room decleaned. He's horrible at brushing his teeth. He used the water pick we got him. He wouldn't brush properly. He would

constantly get cavities in his braces. So we ended up taking the wires out because one time he had 13 cavities under the braces. Help me out here, Dr. Sherry Schwartz. You're the shrink. One time he had 13 cavities under his braces. A lot of people say, you know, why are you thinking about that? That doesn't matter. It does matter because it shows me just how much they're not paying attention to their son. His teeth are rotting under the braces. So if you're going to ignore that, are you going to ignore what he's writing in his school notebook or what's in his school locker or what he's got in his backpack? I mean, to me, it's a huge red flag. Absolutely. And they did ignore all of those things. But what I hear when she's talking in that clip is that she's blaming him. He didn't clean his room. And so the solution is use the guest

room instead of trying to figure out what the issue is. And Ethan told them repeatedly, I need help. I'm not well. I need help. And they ignored that too. Everything was Ethan's fault. Nothing is their fault. They bear no responsibility whatsoever. And I don't expect parents to be mental health professionals. Of course not. But when you are seeing things like such a filthy, dirty room that the child has to use a different room and keep teeth decaying under the braces when you provided, you know, the water pick and the technology to keep it clean. This is a signal that something is wrong, even if your child doesn't tell you something's wrong. And it is incumbent upon you as a parent to take that seriously and move mountains to do something

about it. This is a landmark decision, a landmark verdict, a jury convicting notorious school shooter Ethan Crumley's parents for their part in the murders of four high school students and the aggravated assault shootings of seven others at the school. What exactly did they do? What inflamed the jury? To Jarrett Fiorentino, if you had to sum up, as you finish your final closing statement to the jury, and you want to leave them with five sentences, what would you say Mr. and Mrs. Crumley did? The theme of that closing, Nancy, would be their reckless disregard for Ethan. They disregarded his physical needs. They disregarded his mental health. They disregarded his hygiene.

They armed him with a weapon. They disregarded the statements that he made. All of those negligent disregards set the table for these killings. They gave him the bullets in their disregard for their son. They literally provided him with a firearm and they failed to protect those children. They failed to get him out of that school building on that very day because they were more concerned about getting back to work and addressing their own personal needs. They ignored this boy's cries for help. That's why they're convicted, and that's why they should spend every single day possible in jail. Defiant to the end, insisting they had no part, no responsibility at all, and their son's school shooting with mass victims. And that defiance,

I believe, is what did them in. Never once did they say, I'm not the victim here. Throughout, they considered themselves the victims and the martyrs. As a matter of fact, wait till you hear what the mother actually said in court. Listen. In what prosecutors are calling a slap in the face to victims and their families, Jennifer Crumbly, the mother of Michigan school shooter Ethan Crumbly, is trying to avoid going behind bars after being convicted of involuntary manslaughter. Crumbly is asking a judge to sentence her to house arrest in the guest house of her attorney, a house prosecutors say is an upgrade to the place

Crumbly used to call home. Amazing. Amazing. And I want to quote what one of the victims, 14-year-old Hannah's dad, her dad, Steve St. Juliana said, quote, not once did they say, I wish I would have locked the gun up or even acknowledge they are not the victims in this scenario? As a matter of fact, going so far to discuss, to plan, to fantasize about effing up the prosecutor, the judge exasperated with the two of them, the victim's families crying in court. Is there any way for the parents to make a comeback? You heard joining us today Dr. Kendall Crowns describing what the children went through if they did not take a direct shot to the head.

And we're talking about children as young as 14 years old, bleeding out on the floor of the school hall, their last moments. And now the parents wonder, did they call out for mommy? Did they wonder where I was? Did they ask daddy, help me? That's going to ring in these parents' ears for the rest of their lives as Crumley's mom has to do her jail time in the guest house of her lawyer.

Okay. Our prayers with the victims' families. And to the Crumleys, rot in hell. We stop now and remember American hero Sergeant Michael Moran, just 46. Sergeant Moran shot in the line of duty, leaving behind two grieving daughters, Catalina and Nova Lynn. American hero, Sergeant

Michael Moran. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us tonight and every night. Nancy Grace signing off. Good night, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.