Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - SCOTT PETERSON BIG TRIAL WIN: SWEARS HE KEPT MISTRESS TO "FIND" WIFE LACI

Episode Date: October 10, 2024

Scott Peterson won another court victory in his attempt to have his murder conviction overturned. He was originally sentenced to death for the murders of his wife, Laci Peterson, and their unborn son, Connor, but that sentence was later overturned. The court determined that Peterson's trial judge improperly dismissed jurors who opposed capital punishment. He was resentenced to life without the possibility of parole. Now, a California judge is granting Scott Peterson discovery rights, 20 years post-conviction. The defense team believes these materials could support their claims of trial irregularities and potential evidence mishandling. The judge rejected several requests from Peterson's team for specific evidence while approving others. The Los Angeles Innocence Project and Scott Peterson want to test other items related to a burglary near their home that they believe are connected to the case. Their current theory is that Laci was abducted and killed by burglars who broke into a home across the street from the Petersons' on Christmas Eve 2002. This theory is based on the idea that Laci was still alive after Scott left to go fishing because multiple witnesses saw her walking her dog in the neighborhood. DNA testing is also being conducted on a piece of duct tape found on Laci Peterson’s remains Joining Nancy Grace Today: Jon Buehler - Former Detective in Scott Peterson Investigation, Former Detective for Modesto Police Department Troy Slaten – Los Angeles Criminal Defense Attorney, Slaten Lawyers, APC; X: @TroySlaten Toby Wolson – Forensic Consultant Specializing in DNA, Serology, and Bloodstain Pattern Analysis; Author: “Handbook of Bloodstain Pattern Analysis.” out December 13 Dr. Kendall Crowns – Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth) and Lecturer: University of Texas Austin and Texas Christian University Medical School Susan Hendricks – Journalist, Author: “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi’;” IG: @susan_hendricks X @SusanHendicks See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I Heart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Bombshell, and I mean bombshell. Scott Peterson, big win. That's right. A judge has green-lighted his bid for freedom. This as he double-downs on the burglary theory and swears he kept his sex mistress in order to find Lacey. Let that sink in.

I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Peterson claims investigators did not turn over key evidence to his defense that could have cleared him of his pregnant wife's murder during the trial. I was searching for my family. I wanted to search to stay in contact with Amber, I thought. And she went, get into the picture, complicated, ruined the search for Lacey Fry. Does it never end with him?

That is from our friends over at Peacock. Their documentary is called Face to Face with Scott Peterson. And there he says, okay, wait. He's asked, why did you keep talking to Amber Fry after Lacey disappeared? Well, that's obvious. He wanted to continue having sex with her. But what he says is, well, I was searching for my family under Amber's skirt and I wanted that search to continue. I stayed in contact with Amber, I thought, and she wouldn't get into the picture and complicate it and ruin the search for Lacey and Connor. Okay. The bombshell tonight is that In her wisdom has green lit Scott Peterson's bid for freedom.

But before I get into the legalities of all that, I want to go straight out to a longtime colleague who I consider to be a friend. Oh, the good old days of living in Redwood City during the trial. John Bueller is with us. Former detective in the Scott Peterson investigation. Former detective for Modesto PD. 31 years. John, can you believe this? Can you believe this is still happening with Scott Peterson? Well, I can because it's there's only so much to do when you're locked up in state prison. So you're doing everything that you can to get out. And I don't suspect that he's ever going to admit to this because that would ruin his chances.

As far as the judge granting this temporary victory for him, I don't see it as a real big deal for us because they can test all the evidence they want. And I encourage them to. I'm not an attorney, so I don't have a legal objection to that. I'm confident we got the right guy and that there's not going to be any revelation when they test anything that comes up that they're allowed to do. I remember every day listening to evidence poured from the witness stand and investigating. Of course, my investigation was just, you know, a pinpoint of what your investigation was. But everything I saw and I was looking at it in the light most favorable to the defendant. Yes, I'm a former felony prosecutor and a crime victim.

But the way I tried cases, John, as you know, is once I got my case in chief ready, I wanted to look at the case as if I were the defense attorney so I could prepare to fight whatever they were going to throw at me. And I did that for weeks and weeks and weeks in Modesto throughout the area, trying to find the flaw, the hole in the state's case. And I was convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that Peterson was guilty. And then of course, more evidence poured from the witness stand evidence. I was not privy to prior to trial. I want you to stay on camera because while you were talking, um, the control room went to Peterson as much as I love looking at Scott Peterson and his man ponytail. I want you to look in the camera so I can see you and repeat what you just said when it comes to retesting the evidence in the Lacey Peterson

murder. How do you react to that? Well, I react with kind of nonchalance boredom. If they want to retest it, I'm okay with that. I'm real confident that we've got the right guy because there's so much circumstantial evidence that you can't ignore when it comes to this. And the evidence does also diffuse their claim of the burglary being involved, the burglars that committed that crime across the street. But over and above that, when they're trying to talk about whether it's duct tape or a tarp or any of these other things that washed up on the shore with Lacey, test it all it's really not a big deal for me you have to understand the san francisco bay is not a salt

water aquarium it's not clean it's it's full of trash i mean not you know totally full of trash but there's all sorts of debris in there that gets tossed in there for a variety of different reasons so anything that washes up with lacy can't necessarily be associated with her go ahead and test that stuff you might find that there it's linked to some other man or some other person that's in the CODIS database, but that doesn't mean it's related to her and where she was in the water. So as far as they're going to have an uphill battle, it's a long hill for them to climb to try and get over the fact that they can't link this stuff directly to her. Guys, you are hearing a really renowned detective, John Buehler. He was renowned within the ranks of the Modesto PD and the community,

but it was the Scott Peterson prosecution that vaulted him to become well-known across the country. John, just, and I know this is off the top of your head. What do you people ask me this all the time? What do you consider to be the strongest evidence against Scott Peterson? Probably the bodies. And here's why. When the remains of Connor were found, they were in pristine condition, which indicates what was described in the autopsy report that Connor was ejected from Lacey in what was called a coffin berth. When the storm came through San Francisco Bay and it started to make the surge underneath the water, Lacey was anchored down in four points

with what we believe to be the concrete anchors, the residue that was found on Scott's fertilizer trailer and his warehouse. But over and above that, when her body was found, it was a remarkable difference in the appearance of the body because of marine activity. And it showed that the body was in the water between, I believe the forensic pathologist said, three to six months, which, of course, four months is right in the middle there.

So when you have limbs that are separated by decomposition and marine activity or the only other explanation that I was heard could have been extreme surgical precision which of course Scott wasn't a doctor that shows that the body was put there on the bottom waited so it wouldn't be discovered now when you want to run down that rabbit hole about the burglary across the street what burglary is going to abduct a girl and then try and frame the guy that the media is focusing on, but at the same time, not leave the body on

the shore right there by Brooks Island in Berkeley Marina? Why would a burglar sink it? Why would a burglar wait it? And most burglars I know generally don't have boats. So the condition of the bodies, when they were found and how they were found pretty much indicates to me that he did it. You know, there's a whole bunch of other things that we could do two shows on. But that to me is the strongest thing. And another thing that really kind of struck me, I'll just wrap it up real quick, is his ability to order a double double with cheese, a small fry and a vanilla shake 10 minutes after we told him that the DNA results had proved that it was his wife and his child. Stop, stop, stop, stop. Did not know that. I was going along merrily with you

going. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I haven't heard about the double double. If anybody else knows about the double double on this panel, speak up now or forever hold your peace. Tell me about the double double. OK, I ought to hear this. Well, I did. Yeah. I've told it a few times and I actually, I don't have it with me here because I don't have my notes with me, but I have the transcript because we wired my car when we were driving back from San Diego. And one of the things that, you know, we always have to remember is I was a cog in the wheel of this case. I was one of many people that worked at Craig Grogan, of course, the lead, Brocchini and I there side by side helping him. But it was a team effort with Modesto Police Department and numerous other agencies in California.

So I'll just take credit for the reports I did and the things I did on it. But we're coming down off the grapevine on our way into Bakersfield on the way up from San Diego to get back to Modesto. Scott's sitting behind me. I'm driving. Craig Grogan is sitting next to him. And Craig gets the call that the attorney general's office, Bill Lockyer's office at the time, had confirmed that the DNA results on the remains found in San Francisco Bay a couple of days earlier were shown to be Lacey and Connor. Craig tells that to Scott right after he finished the cell phone call. And I'm kind of looking in the mirror.

Scott makes kind of like a sniffle or something like that. It isn't the reaction that you're going to get from somebody who on TV was telling how much he missed his wife and he had the nursery all ready for the child. So I just chalked it up to the fact that I knew Scott did it or I was confident enough in it, even though I didn't witness it. And that was the only reaction he could squeeze out on a moment's notice. So fast forward, you know, 10 miles or so, we pull off the interstate off I-5 going over to 99 and we get gas. And I opened up the back door of the car and he's in a waist chain with handcuffs at his hips. You know, it's a, and he's got a leg iron on him, handcuffs for your ankles with a chain between them so he can walk. He's not going to be able to run, so we're not going to have to chase him

like Laurel and Hardy or anything like that. But I'm filling the car with gas and I ask him, I said, hey, Scott, you know, we're going to stop and get a bite to eat. You know, if you want to eat, we'll get you something. You know, big spenders that we are. And he says, well, John, where are you going? Because we're on a cordial basis and always were. I never really had any problems with him other than him killing his wife and his child. But he looked at me. I said, I think we're going to hit an in and out. There's

an in and out of the exit or two up. And he goes in and out. I'll have a double double with cheese, a small fry and a vanilla shake. And the reason I remember the order is because that's my order minus the cheese because cheese only belongs on a pizza. So I just kind of looked at him and I went, you got it, buddy. And I closed the door and I thought, who orders dinner right after they find out that their loved ones are dead? And that along with the condition of the bodies pretty much cinched it for me that he whacked both of them. Okay. You know how I am about details, John. That would be a double-double with cheese. And what else? A small fry and a vanilla shake. So finding out that that was Lacey and Connor that had washed ashore did not deter his appetite.

No, it didn't. And if you think about your viewers and anybody who has lost a loved one, whether it's through a traffic collision or Nancy, what you experienced many years ago, a death. We just had a recent death in the family for a medical reason and things like that. Food is in the top thousand things on your mind. It's kind of down around the 980 mark. You're thinking about a lot of other things. you just kind of don't lose your apt it's a good weight loss program when you lose a loved one because you just don't feel like eating and so when this came along I mean Scott's different from us he you know he's got an incredible amount of self-control he he can recover

from embarrassment in milliseconds you know like even when they were leading about of Redwood City and they were putting him in the van to take him up to San Quentin there. Every once in a while, you guys will play that clip and he'll bang his head on the, you know, the doorway, getting into the back of the van. You know, I'd be embarrassed for years over that, you know, but he just recovers from things so easily. You know, you can put him on the spot and he can think of a way to just disregard it. He's really an interesting guy. I mean, you don't want him to marry your sister or your daughter, but if he was sitting in a restaurant with you, you'd have a good conversation with him. He's kind of like Kerry Stainer, the guy who killed those four women up

in Yosemite a few years earlier. We were involved in that case on the task force. And Stainer and Scott are a lot alike. They're very likable, they're reasonably attractive. I'm not too into guys all the time. Um, most of them anyway. And he, you know, you'd see him, he doesn't look like a murderer, you know, he just doesn't look like, you know, Jack Nicholson in the shining or something like that. He's just, you know, he looks pleasant and he he's engaging. He's charming. You know, he just does all the right things except for killing people. You know, what you just said really, uh, struck a chord with me about how, no matter what you throw at Peterson, he's just got this answer immediately, doesn't faze him. And here is a perfect example. When he is confronted about lying and he immediately comes up with an answer.

Listen. He told me this elaborate lie about her missing and this tragedy and that this will be the first holidays without her. you did. I did. Scott Peterson's lawyers argue that important pieces of evidence, including a van set on fire the day after Lacey vanished, were never tested for DNA. Yeah, there was a burglary process. There were a lot of people. And I believe that Lacey went over there to see what was going on.

So he is doubling down. He's hunkering down with the burglary theory that this woman who could hardly walk. Okay. And that picture of her in the red, oh, by the way, guys, that clip that you just saw some of our friends at Peacock and their documentary is face to face with Scott Peterson. You can still stream it. That photo of Lacey in the red Christmas outfit and her maternity party wear. She had to go sit down at the party. That's a picture of her and put her feet up. She couldn't keep standing up at a Christmas party. Think she sees a burglary across the street and putting her baby, her first child, what could be her only son, what ended up being her only son in jeopardy.

She went across the street to confront a group of male burglars. He's hungering down on that. In the last hours, a judge in her wisdom has given Scott Peterson a huge golden grab at freedom. Joining me, an all-star panel, but straight out to Susan Hendricks joining us, investigative journalist, author of Down the Hill, My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. By the way, that trial is about to start. Susan Hendricks explained to me, it's twofold, that the discovery process, which happens at trial, I'm going to go to our special guest, Tori Slayton, about that. Exhaustive discovery on behalf of the defense. That happened at trial. Now it's happening again. Plus, the judge is allowing some very complicated scientific testing.

But you know what? You explain exactly what this judge has done for Scott Peterson. Exactly, Nancy, and has to do with that penal code one zero five four point nine, which means he has access. His team does to that discovery that was available, as you mentioned, during the trial to reassess. To me, this just allows his team to kind of poke holes because one of the items which is allowed, I was looking through what was denied and what was granted here, are the notes between officers. And I just think that allows someone to come in and poke holes and poke holes. I've seen it in a lot of the trials that I have covered, including Delphi, they are going after the detectives,

going after the police department. And it's an honor to be on with Detective John Buehler, because something stood out to me, what he investigated. He went back to Scott Peterson's home and he said, look, I knew that Scott was going to act the way that he acted. Went in, this stood out to me, to Connor's room. And what was it? A storage facility. So when Detective John Buehler showed that, and it was in the documentary, American Murder, Lacey Peterson on Netflix, there it is, Nancy, that to me said, having a son who's eight, if something happened to him, never would I use the room as a storage facility, much less going in. So I believe Judge Hill did grant what they wanted to poke holes into this. We'll see. I don't think

it's going to give Scott Peterson a new trial. In fact, I'm hoping it doesn't, but you never know. It is a big win for his side, as you said. John Buehler, could you describe the moment that you went into the home? And you know what Lacey and Peterson's home reminded me of it was like and I've only used this term once before it's like a little jewel box because Lacey on her own dime had justreaths up. Everything was always perfectly in place. And I, okay, thank you for not arresting me for trespass, went all the way around the house, looking in every single window. And this was, you know, getting ready for trial because I couldn't go in. You're seeing exhibits that were used at trial. Everything, I mean, I could tell she put so much time and energy into making this

house a home. What did you observe when you went in, John Buehler? Well, this is one of the rare houses that you go into as a detective that you don't have to wipe your feet on the way out they were immaculate you know housekeepers both her and scott um you know his he didn't want anybody wearing shoes in his house and i'm cool with that definitely but it was the care that went into putting the house together with the decorations and stuff like that it definitely had the the mark of somebody who was talented at doing that. But Scott also was pretty good about keeping house. He wasn't the typical, you know, dude that leaves his, you know, socks laying here and his shoes over there and, you know, stuff like that. They took great pride in that. And that was pretty obvious, you know, with Scott throughout it. But it was the contrast between the first visit. And then we went back

on the second search warrant a couple of weeks later or days later. I can't remember exactly what the time frame was on that. But it was then we found they had a high back office chair and a bunch of other items that were tossed into the, you know, nursery for Connor that, you know, Lacey obviously put so much effort into. And that told the story, you know, just like you said, it suggested he knew they weren't coming back. But there were a lot of things that he did that suggested he knew they weren't coming back. We could detail those if you want to get. You mean like ordering the porn channel and trying to sell her car? Well, yeah. And then talking about selling the house and then selling a house furnished and things like that. And see, these are all things that, you know, individually are not a big deal.

But when it comes to trying to defend them. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, John. You just told me something else I didn't remember. Not only did he want to sell her vehicle or to the porn channel, used baby Connor's room as storage before the body had been found. Before either of them had been found. All this was happening. But he wanted to sell the house furnished, get rid of everything Lacey had bought and arranged.

Just get rid of it. Right. Yeah, that was the thing that kind of struck us. He had a family friend that was a local real estate agent, you know, well respected in the community and everything like that. And he contacted, you know, this friend and said, you know, what what would you think about, you know, selling the house? And then I think it was a couple of days later he talked about, well, what about the option of selling it furnished? And this is all in the time when you guys are covering him and Diane Sawyer's interviewing him, Gloria Gomez and Jody Hernandez and all the major players like you

and the rest of them are talking to him and he's talking about when are they coming home and he's putting up flyers and posters and waiting on this. But in the behind the scenes, when he's talking about that and, and we asked him about that and he said, well, you know, he didn't think he won't, she'd ever want to come home to something that would remind her of going missing. Well, and it just doesn't really fit common sense. It doesn't fit logic. If it doesn't fit those, to me, it kind of points to he had something to do with it. Hey, Troy Slayton joining guys, Troy Slayton is a renowned defense attorney in L.A. at Slayton Lawyers.

Troy Slayton, why do killers say stupid things like that? Like, I wanted to sell the house with all the furniture that she had picked out because it would probably remind her of getting kidnapped. Well, that's why I always recommend to clients and any criminal defendant that if you're being investigated, you should exercise your right to remain silent and not say anything to anyone. Exercise your right to remain silent. How about exercising in the yard with the other inmates? It can be used against you before, during, and even after your trial. But I think Scott Peterson may very well be getting a new trial here because the judge did what the judge was basically required to do here, Nancy. You can't blame the judge because they're given very little discretion to not grant a defendant a review of evidence when somebody's convicted to 15 years or more for a serious or violent felony.

I met Scott Peterson, November 20th, 2002. I was introduced to him. I was told he was unmarried. Scott told me he was not married. We did have a romantic relationship. When I discovered he was involved in the Lacey Peterson disappearance case, I immediately contacted the Modesto Police Department. Although I could have sold the photos of Scott and I to tabloids, I knew this was not the right thing to do. For fear of jeopardizing the case or the police investigation, I will not comment further. There is Amber Frye, who has somehow managed to rise above the entire Scott Peterson debacle and go on with her life. She's now a mother.

Amber Frye was duped like so many other people were by Scott Peterson. Listen to this. Amber, say you're here. Are you there? Yes, I'm here. Amber! Hey, Happy New Year! Happy New Year! I wanted to call you. Thank you. Amber, are you there? I'm here.

Amber. I wish you could hear me. I'm on the, I think you're there. I'm near the Eiffel Tower. New Year's Celebration is unreal. The crowd is huge. The crowd's huge? Amber. Yes, I'm here. Amber, if you're there, I can't hear you right now, but I'll call you on your New Year's.

Okay, I'll get through this. Amber. Amber, I'll meet you. I'll see you soon. Okay. Yeah, I hate it. Amber. Amber. Okay. Yeah, I hate it. Amber, it's so hard to hear when you're like a full four blocks away. Okay. That call was made, if I'm correct, and correct me if I'm wrong, John Buehler,

during the vigil for Lacey Peterson, Scott Peterson's wife. Is that right, John? Is that the one made during the vigil? That was made during the vigil. Yeah, you're correct. I mean, help me out. Now, after all of that, I hear Scott Peterson doubling down and his whole new legal team with the L.A. Innocence Project on the burglary. I guess they think that that's their best bet.

In the past, they threw out so many different theories. One was that Lacey Peterson had been kidnapped so the kidnappers could cut Baby Connor out of her stomach and either keep the baby or sell the baby. But then, of course, when she was found, Baby Connor had still been in her tummy. So that theory was no good. Let's see. Then there's a theory she'd been kept alive for that reason. That didn't work due to the stage of decomposition. Then there was a theory about a Hawaiian gang. There were just so many theories, but this one seems to hold the most promise for Scott Peterson. And when you look at him saying it,

he seems to really believe it. So to you, Troy Slayton, you're the defense attorney. How is anyone, including another jury, supposed to believe anything Peterson says when he lies and lies and lies and wait till Bueller gets back on the stand and describes that double-double with cheese, small fry, and vanilla shake. Just because someone's a liar, Nancy, doesn't mean that they're also a murderer. So there are people that say all sorts of things when they're suffering a tragedy, when they're suffering huge emotional stress. And there is no playbook for somebody to act or react when a family member is missing or a family member has been killed. I think Scott Peterson, in this case, may have already been resigned to the fact that his family wasn't coming back.

Maybe he had already gone through that part of the emotional roller coaster that somebody goes through. And you've got to eat. He's on a trip from San Diego to Modesto. That's a six to seven, eight hour trip. You got to eat. That's not, no. Because John Buehler joining us, former detective in the Peterson investigation, I remember really well. The first thing I ate after my fiance was murdered,

I don't know how many weeks, I had a glass of orange juice. Actually, I drank straight out of the jug. I finally was hungry. I lost down to 89 pounds. So I know I'm projecting what I went through after losing him onto how I think other people should act. But have you noticed, speaking of a playbook, that's a defense attorney's playbook. They always say there is no playbook for grief.

But I am telling you, that call to Amber Fry, that was before the bodies had been found. That was immediately after Lacey had gone missing. So there was no chance, as Troy Slayton just said, that he had resigned himself to the fact they were both dead. Well, and I got to admire Troy for his skills and, you know, the way he phrases things. And, you know, he'd be a great adversary in the courtroom. I'd love to be cross-examined by him. I think we could have some fun with it and everything.

But he's got a different book than I do. My book is based on talking to victim families from suicide and traffic collision fatalities and of course many murders over the years and there's a very common theme that we found that was consistent through all of that and scott didn't meet that he he i had a couple that were kind of like scott but one was easily cleared, which Scott wouldn't agree to do. And then another one ended up killing himself as I was trying to get him to do a poly. But they had the same demeanor that Scott did.

And we don't see that very often. Most of the time we see extreme guilt, I'll open my wallet, I'll open my bank account, I'll open my computer, I'll open anything that you need to look at to clear me out so you can go after the right guy. And Troy's got it right, and he's on the side that he has to look at to clear me out so you can go after the right guy and uh troy's got it right and he's on the side that he has to do i just i am reading a different book than he is

please We want her and our grandson home safely and immediately, so please bring her back to us. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The Los Angeles Innocence Project has taken on the Peterson case and is seeking DNA testing on a piece of duct tape that was found on the remains of Lacey Peterson. The LAIP is also seeking to test items from a burned out van found near the Peterson home the day after Lacey Peterson vanished. An item considered crucial to the defense is a bloodstained mattress, which they believe could contain evidence potentially exonerating Scott Peterson. Straight back to Susan Hendricks, investigative journalist and author of Down the Hill, My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. Let me understand, number one, Susan Hendricks, the judge is allowing the defense to go back into all the state's files. You describe your fear. This is my fear. Well, it's not my fear. I'm telling you this is what's going to happen. They are going to see all the different people that the state investigated.

Hey, let's look at the old boyfriend. Hey, let's look at the former boss. Hey, let's look at the neighbor. And they're going to take that, even though all those people were cleared, if they even exist, I'm giving you examples, and turn them in to chief suspect number one. And they'll probably look for somebody that's already dead because they won't be here to defend themselves. Every avenue of investigation, no matter how it ended, like these burglars across the street, that will be the new defense. So we've got them, A, going back through all the state's investigation and B, allowing testing on items found in a van related to a burglary near the Peterson home. It's, from what I understand, a burned out orange van, and there is a mattress in the back of it that has a substance on it that could be blood. Okay, tell me all about that. Okay, so originally, Judge Hill said they could test, as I did a show,

I did an interview on your show, that is, about the duct tape that was on Lacey's pants. So that has been tested in July. The results are sealed. The results came back, I would say, mid-August. So now the judge said, look, nothing tied Lacey to that burned out orange van, but they are cross-referencing it. It was investigated as part of the prosecution. So therefore, the judge is allowing all of that evidence. The more that she allows to me, as you stated, the more holes that can be poked in that. But I believe, I go back to Scott Peterson's behavior, but we're on the testing here. And I remember, Nancy, you said to me in regards to Delphi, let them with the Odinus theory, let them test that. It's so far fetched.

And as we heard, Detective Buehler saying, OK, they don't have much to do there. Scott doesn't have much to do serving a life sentence. Let them retest it. I don't think any new evidence will come from this. And it's poking holes in everything they do. And very quickly, Susan Hendricks, are they going to get to test duct tape that was found on Lacey's body? Yes, no. Yeah, they did in mid-July.

Let me go to our experts. Toby Wilson is joining us, forensic biologist, bloodstain expert at No Slow Forensic Consultations. Formerly worked for the Miami-Dade Bureau of Forensic Services. Miami-Dade. Miami. No lack of business there. Think Dexter. There he is right there. Toby Wilson. Okay, Toby, tell me your thoughts on this retesting. What I'm trying to figure out, Toby, is what can be gained from duct tape that's been attached to her clothing underwater in San Francisco Bay for well over a month. What if it shows, as you heard Mueller saying earlier, some other debris

has attached to it? That's like, you know, swimming around in a cesspool. Could that be used by the defense? I mean, what do you think will be on the duct tape? Let me just start at the beginning, Toby. Well, it's really hard to predict, but with something submerged in water that long, I would be very surprised if they get a DNA profile that is usable, if they get anything at all. The water is going to act as a dilution and a wash away factor. And, you know, I would look at the duct tape more in terms of fracture matches compared to the role that you just showed that was assumed taken from his residence.

Oh, my stars are so smart. You are so smart. You're absolutely correct. Fingerprints. John Buehler, this may actually backfire on the defense. John Buehler, as you know by now, is one of the detectives who worked with many other wonderful detectives on the Peterson investigation. What if, just what if, Peterson's fingerprint is on that duct tape? Or what if that duct tape matches back to the duct tape found in his warehouse or in his home?

Wow. Well, I see a couple of things there. Yeah, what a great thing for us to shut all this stuff down. If his fingerprints are preserved on the adhesive side of that duct tape, because they probably wouldn't be preserved on the non-adhesive side, that would sense shit that he put it on her. But also if the duct tape is from some, you know, shrimp boat fishermen or something like that out of Sausalito that has no connection with Lacey because they threw it overboard when they were bringing the catch in, that's going to show that it was just debris that washed up with Lacey. If the duct tape

construction, the weave of the fibers in it matches the roll of duct tape that you're showing on your video there, it matches to Scott. Again, it's incriminating to him. So that's why throughout all of this, I really haven't had any worries about testing stuff. The truth is going to come out wherever it is. And I believe the truth is going to show regardless of the testing that Scott did this. And if anything, it's not going to create enough reasonable doubt to run it back into court, hopefully. Related to the burned out van, Peterson's team will be able to review a complete color copy of the crime lab file, including all bench notes, diagrams, DNA reports, and all documents regarding color copy of the crime lab file, including all bench notes, diagrams, DNA reports, and all documents regarding the testing of the items collected. The judge noted

that based on the cross-referencing of the investigation of the two cases, that the orange van was part of the investigation of the offenses charged. Judge Hill ruled in July that a piece of duct tape found on Lacey's pants during her autopsy could be tested, but the results would have to be sealed. According to court filings, these sealed results have been filed with the court in August. With me, a long-time colleague and renowned medical examiner, Dr. Kendall Crowns. Dr. Kendall Crowns, it is so critical that the medical examiner handled debris like this duct tape with the utmost care. How do you ensure when you're performing an autopsy that it's not the body, but items extrinsic to the body, attached to the body, around the body. How do you make sure that they are not contaminated?

So what we do is when the body is found at the scene, they are wrapped in a blanket that's called a trace blanket. It's a sterile blanket that is kept in a plastic bag just for this purpose. It's wrapped about the body. Then they're placed into the body bag, which is sealed and then brought to the medical examiner's office. Body bag is unsealed and then we carefully unwrap the trace blanket and then any trace evidence, duct tape, hair fibers, anything like that is collected immediately under sterile conditions, placed into envelopes and then handed over to the crime scene or the crime lab

individuals. So the whole process is you make sure you keep it all sterile and you don't try and introduce anything else into it while you're doing it. Do you wear a face mask while you perform the autopsies? I do. It's the main thing to keep stuff out of your mouth, but also you don't breathe DNA all over the body. But you wear an N95 mask, which is a mask to keep out things like tuberculosis and COVID. Okay. Troy Slayton, give me your best shot. I'm braced. I'm sitting down. Maybe I need to lay down. Okay. If you were handling this case, how would you pursue, what avenue would you pursue with the duct tape and with the evidence from the burned out mattress?

Every avenue. I'd leave no stone unturned because when the government wants to put a person in a cage for the rest of their life, and you know as well as I do, we've made mistakes before. People have been executed who were later shown to be innocent from DNA evidence. I agree with the detective and I don't often agree with detectives here. Let's recheck everything. There should be nothing to hide. We should look at every note, every piece of evidence. No, I'm asking you, how are you going to pursue specifically the duct tape and the items from the van. Don't give me a speech about innocent people. It's simple.

I already know all that. Tell me something I don't know. Have an original thought, Slayton. It's exactly what you said. We want to check it for DNA. We want to check it against rolls that were found in other places. We want to check it for fingerprints. We want to check it for the color and the texture.

The FBI crime lab can match a tiny fragment of a piece of tape to other pieces or to a roll. They can even tell where it was manufactured and possibly even what store it was sold from. Troy Slayton, why don't you admit what the defense is really going to do, what you would do, and that is take any DNA, no matter how small, how microscopic, how unrelated, like Bueller just said from a fisherman out on San Francisco Bay that threw the tape out or if it got somehow compromised with other matter in the bay, you would use that and run with it and pretend that unrelated person had something to do with Lacey's murder. That's what they're going to do. Or maybe it would exonerate an innocent person. Or maybe, as the detective said, it will prove his guilt. I don't know, but there should be no fear in testing everything in leaving no stone unturned. So that way we can be 100% sure and 100% free. That's not the standard of law. The standard of law is not a mathematical certainty

such as two and two equals four. But you do have to be 100 percent free of any reasonable doubt. That's true. OK, there you see. That's what's going to happen now. We are waiting for that information to be unsealed regarding the duct tape results. But as for tonight, the judge has given a green light to Scott Peterson in his freedom grab. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend.

This is an iHeart Podcast.