Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - SCOTT PETERSON: BURNED MATTRESS, DUCT TAPE PROVE I DIDN'T MURDER LACI

Episode Date: August 16, 2024

Dueling documentaries are being released about the death of Laci Peterson and her unborn son, Conner. Netflix is debuting American Murder: Laci Peterson, a three-part docuseries directed by Skye Borgman. The series includes Laci's mother, Sharon Rocha, speaking publicly for the first time since Laci’s tragic death. The second documentary, Face to Face with Scott Peterson, is a new three-part series premiering on Peacock on August 20. In this series, Scott Peterson, who was accused of the murder, speaks for the first time in the 21 years since his arrest. Peterson reportedly admits to being unfaithful, calling himself a “total a-hole” for having an affair, but continues to deny killing Laci. Peterson was involved with Amber Frey at the time of Laci's disappearance. It was Laci’s stepfather, Ron Grantski, who reported her missing, not her husband. Initially, Scott Peterson told friends he had gone to play golf, but later changed his story to say he went fishing. Peterson has been fighting for years to overturn his conviction. Although his death sentence was initially overturned, the California Supreme Court upheld his conviction while overturning the death sentence due to the improper dismissal of some jurors based on their views on the death penalty. Peterson remains in prison, sentenced to life without parole, but he is not giving up. In an effort to secure a new trial, Scott Peterson's legal team requested DNA testing on more than a dozen pieces of evidence. However, after hearing the arguments, the judge ruled that only a single 15.5-inch piece of duct tape found on Laci Peterson's pants during her autopsy would be tested for DNA. The court denied requests to test all other evidence. JOINING NANCY GRACE TODAY Skye Borgman -  Director, "American Murder: Laci Peterson;" social media: @skyeborgman  Richard Herman - Defense Attorney, X: @richardbherman website:  Caryn L. Stark – Psychologist, Renowned TV and Radio Trauma Expert and Consultant; Instagram: carynpsych/FB: Caryn Stark Private Practice Dr. Eric Eason – Board-certified Forensic Pathologist, Consultant; Instagram: @eric_a_eason, Facebook: Eric August Eason, LinkedIn: Eric Eason, MD Susan Hendricks – Journalist, Author of “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi;” IG @susan_hendricks, X @SusanHendicks“   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Scott Peterson. Does it never end with this guy? Remember him? He was sitting on death row for years for the murder of his wife, Lacey, and their unborn child, Connor? Yes. Well, somehow he

did a backflip and he's no longer on death row. And now he says he's totally innocent, claiming that a burned mattress and duct tape will prove, quote, I didn't murder Lacey. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Scott Peterson convicted of killing his wife, Lacey, and their unborn son, Connor. Now, 22 years later, he's speaking out. He's speaking out now? Really? He's speaking out now when he had the opportunity at trial to take the stand and explain to the jury how he's innocent and he did not kill his wife and unborn child, Connor. is okay where nobody such as me can cross-examine him. Wow, that'll be a piece of cake. I just wonder how much money he or his family is making off speaking out. Now, that said, I want you to hear, and I'm really looking forward to this, coming out on Netflix, American Murder, Lacey Peterson. It's going to be followed by a documentary. Oops, I almost said mockumentary, but documentary in which Peterson allegedly speaks.

But that said, I want you to hear this from Netflix, American Murder, Lacey Peterson. I was having Christmas Eve at my house, and she was going to have Christmas morning at her house. And that's pretty much when everything started. Scott called me to find out if Lacey was at my house. And I said no, and he said, well, then she's missing. Missing? What do you mean, missing? I mean, people don't use that term lightly. So I told him to call her friends and find out if anybody had seen her.

Christmas Eve, I got a call from Scott. Lacey's missing. Have you talked to her today? What do you mean missing? Where could she possibly be? He called and said the same thing to me, that she's missing. And I was like, what do you mean missing? Scott called me back and said that nobody had seen her.

I told Ron to call the police, and I called a friend of mine to come and pick me up because I was so upset. I mean, instantly, it was panic. Instantly. You are hearing American Murderer Lacey Peterson. It's going to air on Netflix. And joining me right now, an entire all-star panel, very intimately familiar with the Scott Peterson case. But first, to special guest Sky Borgman, joining us out of LA, the director of American Murder, Lacey Peterson.

Sky, thank you for being with us. You know what? Just right there, that takes me right back to the trial and all the times that I have spoken with Lacey's mother, Sharon Rocha. And you know what, Sky? I will never forget as long as I live. I had been out in front of the courthouse.

It was so hot. Raced back in because Sharon was going to testify. And as I recall, she had on this beautiful yellow outfit. And I was almost late. And they would shut the doors and let nobody in. I got in at the end, entirely back row. I had to sit on my backpack so I could see Sharon. And she described, among so many other things, Skye, burying her daughter, her skeletal remains. And in the casket she buried baby connor in lacy's skeleton arms so that in death she could

hold the baby she was looking forward to so much and i will never forget sharon rocha as long as I live. That woman has lived through hell, Skye. Yeah, she really has. And she's an incredible woman. And she really, look, she hasn't really wanted to participate in a documentary about Lacey. And we were so honored and so happy that she chose to talk with us. And I think a lot of the reason behind that is because there have been these other documentaries that are saying that Scott Peterson is innocent and very much focused on Scott. And she wanted our documentary, her documentary, any documentary that she speaks on to really be about Lacey.

And I hope that we accomplish that in a way that makes Sharon proud. I certainly think it will. And I think our documentary is very lazy board. It's always what I'm the most interested in when I'm telling stories is having the victim really be at the forefront of the story. You know, Skye, it's really a huge feat to get Sharon to speak because it's so painful for her, even now, to talk about Lacey going missing and what happened. And I want to bring it back to what we just played from the upcoming Netflix documentary, which is called American Murder, Lacey Peterson. Sky, because I'm about to go to a veteran trial lawyer who will disagree with me, Richard Herman.

But I remember when my son, and it was just for a few moments, we were in this giant baby superstore. He was about two. He's got a twin sister, Lucy. And I was way down on a shelf from floor to ceiling looking for organic sunscreen. Don't even ask. But I stood up. I said, well, they don't have it. And I turned around and there was Lucy and no John David. I did not call my husband and say, John David's missing. I started screaming to the top of the lungs. My son's gone and running through the stores, huge like a warehouse with Lucy under my arm, like a football screaming his name. He's gone right there. You capsulize it. Sky, who says Lacey's missing? Missing is what you determine after all efforts are exhausted.

Then she's missing. You start with saying, hey, have you seen Lacey? That's how you start. Yeah, it's true. I mean, like I understand maybe that there was some super weird behavior from Scott Peterson. But I think even beyond the strange behavior that Scott exhibits, when you really look at the evidence, to me, it sort of stacks up and says one thing. And that's what the jury decided on 20 years ago. When you say you look at the evidence and it stacks up and says one thing, which evidence particularly speaks to you, Sky? Look, it's circumstantial. Let's be real. But it is a big stack of circumstantial evidence. What speaks to me the most are honestly the conversations he had with Amber Fry, the woman that he was in a relationship

with while he was still married, while Lacey was still alive. And he talks about the end of his relationship, the end of Lacey, the end of his wife before Lacey goes missing. On December 9th, he talks about his marriage being over, that his wife is dead. So he's sort of projecting in a way. And that to me, and I believe that to the jury members, at least the ones that we spoke to, that was really the tipping point for them to go,

this was premeditated. This is something that Scott was planning. Joining me, high profile trial lawyer, Richard Herman, defense attorney, joining us out of Vegas, but practices all over the country at RichardBHerman.com. Richard, go ahead. Second verse, same as the first. Hit me. The sky is right. The case is completely circumstantial and circumstantial evidence is strong. However, there's no murder weapon. There are no witnesses. There's no

determination of cause, time, and date of death. We have a trial judge who completely screwed up in sentencing during the penalty phase, and therefore, the death penalty was reversed, taken off. These are errors in the case, Nancy. We want the search for truth. That's what you want. That's what we all want. And the defense is going to do everything they can to show how the Modesto police was horrible, how they did not do a proper investigation here, how evidence is missing. What's missing? They did an exhaustive investigation. And let me start off with what Sky just played for us. Day one, moment one, minute one, Scott Peterson is lying. He lied to Amber Frye. What is he, clairvoyant Herman?

He says to his mistress, oh, this is my first Christmas without my wife. She's dead. And then a few weeks later, guess what? She was dead and he had his first Christmas without his wife. You really want me to think somebody else engineered that? Seriously? I mean, really, just take off your hat as defense attorney and be straight. Just this one time. That's BS. He predicted it. Two weeks later, it came true. Joining me, Susan Hendricks, investigative journalist and author of Down the Hill, My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. Susan and I covered the Peterson trial together day after day after day. Susan Hendricks, the reports that Lacey Peterson was walking her dog, we have been over and over and over those reports.

Those witnesses may have seen Lacey Peterson walking her dog on a different day at a different time. I've heard about the dog walking ad nauseum and it was brought up in the original trial. I mean, Nancy, in the original trial, and I remember watching you and you covering this, I feel like although circumstantial, everything came together in terms of what Scott did in the days leading up to this. And what stands out to me the most would be the boat that apparently no one knew that he owned. And of course, the interviews that he did at the time, that raspy voice in a whisper with no tears, talking really low and calmly about Lacey. But there are people, groups of people on Twitter now known as X that believe he is innocent, including his sister-in-law, who, by the way, became a lawyer

to prove this. But I think you're right. The first verdict that came back was the right one for Scott. It'll be interesting to hear him speak, but I will say I'm looking forward to the Netflix documentary to hear more about Lacey and her family. Okay, back to the evidence at trial. I want to remind everybody, and I'm sure Skye Borgman found this as she was creating this incredible documentary. It's airing on Netflix, American Murder, Lacey Peterson. The testimony from those that knew Lacey the best before she was murdered states that she could no longer walk the dog as she had done. It was time for her to give birth. She was not out walking her dog. That's not what happened. Now, Skye, it's being argued that those witnesses that

think they saw her walking the dog after she'd already been kidnapped, they have been interviewed. They have been interviewed. They have been interviewed. They were interviewed at the time. They were interviewed before the trial by Modesto PD. And what Modesto PD continues to say is that nobody could positively identify a person walking a dog as Lacey Peterson. They may have seen a pregnant woman walking a golden retriever. They may have seen a non-pregnant woman walking a different dog.

They may have seen a woman in a white top and black pants walking. But nobody that knew Lacey, that knew who she was, could say, I saw Lacey Peterson walking Mackenzie at whatever time in the afternoon. That's what Modesto Police says. There are police records to back it up. This was not somebody who was waiting for his wife to come back. Contacted by telephone, Scott Peterson said, quote, I hope their efforts help find my wife and kid. Her father told NBC News, quote, I'm glad they are looking in the right direction. I know he did it. At this point in the investigation, we think we know what's going on, but we can't prove it yet.

He's predicting his wife is missing two weeks before she's missing. Maybe he made five anchors and we can only find one. Her hair is wrapped up in a pair of needle nose pliers in his boat that nobody knows about we are feeling we have enough let's take him down but we couldn't find the body we had a list of circumstantial evidence pointing at scott but the d.a in stanislaus county he told us privately he said said, you know, bring me a body or you don't have a filing. You're hearing just a tiny tidbit from American murder, Lacey Peterson airing on Netflix. And what a menage that was of evidence that later came out at trial. Day one, Lacey's dad says, I know he did it. They knew on day one, but the prosecutor there in Stanislaus County said, not going forward without a body. And can I remind everyone how day

after day after day, Scott Peterson was tracked by GPS tracker, going out to the edge of San Francisco Bay, looking out at the water where she then washed ashore. First came a little baby's body and then came Lacey. What about that, Richard Herman? That doesn't speak to you that out of all the places Scott Peterson could have been looking for his missing wife, he happened to hone in on the body of water where she was ultimately found. What speaks to me more is the DNA evidence on the duct other persons attached to that and to that document, to those to that duct tape. Can you imagine if there were? Can you answer the question? The question I asked you about Scott Peterson repeatedly going and gazing out at the San Francisco Bay, the body of water where Lacey and Connor were found.

And you won't answer it. Out of all the places on Earth, he could go look for his wife. He goes there where she was, where her body had been thrown. Yeah, I know you want me to answer that. I don't want to answer that. I'm going to look at other items here. I bet. I mean, that's not good.

Obviously, that's not good. But there are other items that could exonerate him and that every item is going to get turned over piece by piece by piece. Man's liberty is at stake and they have every right to do that. And you as a former decorated prosecutor, you want the search for the truth. And we'd like to get to the bottom line of everything. And at the end of the day, if the evidence is not there or the DNA evidence doesn't show anything, then this conviction is going to stand. It's 22 years already he's in prison. See, you don't want to talk about the hard evidence. You don't want to talk about. And let me remind everybody, as Sky Borgman stated and Richard Herman has stated in the past, not today, of course, he was not going

to mention that unless I pull it out of him. But I'm not a DDS. I'm a JD. I can't pull teeth. But Richard Herman knows as well as all practicing lawyers that the black and white letter of the law is circumstantial evidence is as powerful and probative as direct evidence, such as an eyewitness or DNA or a fingerprint. Circumstantial evidence under the law is given the same weight, if a jury so decides, as direct evidence. Speaking of the so-called DNA evidence on a duct tape to which Richard Herman is referring. Listen. In an attempt to get a new trial, Scott Peterson's team sought to have DNA testing done on over a dozen pieces of evidence. After presenting their case, the judge ruled that a single 15.5 inch long piece of duct tape that was found on Lacey Peterson's pants at the time of her autopsy will be tested for DNA. All the other evidence that Peterson's lawyers were asking

to have new DNA tests on were denied. Okay, to Susan Hendricks joining us, investigative journalist who was on the case from the very beginning, Scott Peterson, who has somehow managed to wiggle his way off death row and the double murder of Lacey and Connor is now saying a burned out mattress and what he thinks is going to be DNA on a piece of duct tape will prove he's innocent. Tell me about the duct tape, Susan. Yeah, I believe we will find that out because the judge ruled that that piece of evidence could be retested that was found on a pair of pants with Lacey's remains. So I believe that's in September that we shall see that, what will be on that duct tape. And like you said, Nancy, if it is something that will free Scott Peterson, if he's not the person,

that's what everyone would want. And we've been talking and I see pictures of Lacey on loop here. And I remember speaking with Fred Goldman years ago, and he said, that's the most difficult. They will always remain that age. And I can't imagine for Sharon what she has to see and continues to go through. You remember seeing her in that yellow in the courtroom and Connor, her grandson,

being buried in the arms of Lacey. The heart-wrenching, heart-breaking situation that she is still in 20-plus years later. But again, Connor, her grandson, would have been, what, mid-20s? And Lacey, a lot older, but she is stuck in that moment. And those are the memories that her family has. Joining me is a renowned pathologist, Dr. Eric Eason. Dr. Eason, thank you for being with us. The state of Lacey's body when she was discovered, to my understanding, is that she was basically skeletonized. Her pants, her maternity pants were still loosely, I think, around the lower part of her skeleton.

Now, there is a move of foot and it has been granted by the judge for DNA testing to be performed on duct tape found on those pants. Now, what does that tell me? That Lacey was duct tape and likely weighted down when she was killed. Baby Connor, however, was almost pristine. His little body had been protected by the thick uterine lining and wall of muscle. So when that uterus finally decomposed, he basically floated out of her stomach and washed ashore. The person that found baby Connor said he looked like a little baby doll. Not so for Lacey. Explain to me what happened to Lacey's body. This is the piece of duct tape the defense wants tested, attached to those maternity pants. So what happened to the body is the death occurred, and it sounds like the body was placed into the water. And over time, the body is going to start to decompose, and that's going to occur from two different processes. And so internally when death occurs, the enzymes inside the body will start to auto digest the tissue.

And that's combined with bacteria and other animals that are going to predate on the body and cause further decomposition. And so you're going to end up over time ending up with a skeleton. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. She's been gone almost as long as she was here. I just want her to be remembered as a person and not as a victim of murder. She was alive. She's still alive to all of us.

I see dragonflies, and I think of her this time of the year, as a matter of fact. Her legacy is just that she was a loving person. She loved her husband. She trusted her husband, and he betrayed her. He betrayed her, and he betrayed everybody else. His family, our family, everybody. Straight out to veteran trial lawyer Richard Herman joining me out of Vegas. Scott Peterson, quote, speaks out.

Really? Shouldn't he have done that at the time of the trial? He's not going to get cross-examined. He's not going to get tested. He's going to say whatever fluffy piece of BS he wants to say. Yeah, I think it's pretty dangerous for him to be speaking out right now on any TV series. This is what's going to get, this could seal it for him because nothing good is going to come from what he's going to say in this documentary. Nothing good. He can't exonerate himself. Nobody believes him. He has no credibility personally. So they have to get the evidence

elsewhere. But him speaking out, I think that's a very bad move. I can't believe his defense counsel is letting him do it. I wouldn't let a client do it. And it's just it's no good. It's fraught with danger and pitfalls. And a good interviewer probably bury him. So a good interviewer, Richard Herman. Yes. If you or I were cross-examining him, he'd be limping out of that courtroom. But instead, this is a fluff piece unlike what we're hearing in American Murder Lacey Peterson focusing on Lacey. Skye Boardman is with us, and she is the director of American Murder Lacey Peterson. Skye, I want to bring everybody's attention back

to what happened then. Not my opinion, not Richard Herman's opinion of innocence, not what's going to be on a special or a documentary that's going to occur on Netflix, but the actual evidence. I want you to listen along with me and the panel to Ron Gransky's 911 call. Listen. Can I help you to listen along with me and the panel to Ron Gransky's 911 call. Listen. for a walk from the park. Uh-huh. The dog came home with just the leash on. So the dog came back without your daughter?

Right. What's your stepdaughter's name? God, Peterson. No, no, no, your stepdaughter. Lacey Peterson. Lacey P-T-E-R-S-O-N, right? P-T-E-R-S-O-N. And she's white, black, Hispanic, Asian?

Uh, she's Portuguese or what? How old is she? She's 26. What time did she leave the house and then come back? Dad, we don't know. We just got a call from her son-in-law. He said he left this morning at 9.30 to play golf. He got home about a half hour ago.

Nowhere around. Okay, so she went to walk the dog away? Walked it in. And that's hard to... And she's eight months pregnant, you said? Pardon? You said she's eight months pregnant? Yep, I am.

Okay, we'll have to come back later today. Okay. Okay? Okay. Thanks. Bye-bye. Sky Borgman, let me understand something. In the 911 call, Peterson tells his father-in-law, at least his dad, he went playing golf.

Crazy me. I thought he said he went fishing. Yeah, that's one of the interesting things about this too, is this fishing or golf story that Scott put out there. From my understanding, he told Ron Gransky that he went golfing and he told one other neighbor that he went golfing. Everybody else he told he went fishing. I mean, I've tried to figure out the psychology behind that. If it was just, I think I know the psychology. I think you probably, you remember when I just told you the story about when my son went missing

in the baby zero superstore. Yeah. That story has never, never changed. Has it changed Jackie? I've been telling it since he was almost two years old. He's 16 now. Why? Because that's what happened. I haven't changed it to, I was waltzing through Saks Fifth Avenue. No, I haven't said I was jogging. I haven't changed the story that we were out in a park. Why? Because that's not true. I think I know why he changed his story. And I'm going to get this from Susan Hendricks. Susan Hendricks, joining us, investigative journalist and author who covered the case. Turned up after it came out that the guy collecting tickets or letting people in and out of the parking area at the marina remembered him. So he was busted. He really was. And he had an explanation at the time for anything that came his way saying, well, the weather in a whisper really wasn't good for golfing.

So you take a boat that no one knows you own and go out on a boat when the weather in a whisper really wasn't good for golfing. So you take a boat that no one knows you own and go out on a boat when the weather's bad. And I remember on December 8th, which screams premeditation to me, he Googled the tide, the bay tide for that time. So I believe that Amber Fry gave him a motive to do what he did. And he was able to change the story from golfing to in his boat. You're right, Nancy, when he was busted, when he was caught. And he was able to change the story from golfing to in his boat. You're right, Nancy, when he was busted, when he was caught. And it doesn't surprise me that this narcissistic psychopath, in my opinion, wants to speak out now because he believes that he's charming enough to do so and that what he says may charm those who believe he is guilty.

We'd like to thank all of you for being here and helping us trying to find our daughter. And we'd just like to send a message out there that whoever has her, please, please, please let her go. Bring her back. We love her so much. We want her back. Please let us have her back. Please, let us have her back. We want her and our grandson home safely and immediately, so please bring her back to us. That is painful to watch. That is Sharon, that's Lacey's mom, and Ron Gransky, her dad, her stepdad, begging for her safe return with me.

Skye Borgman, director of American Murder, Lacey Peterson. Skye, you know, I remember that moment. And even now, when I see Sharon speaking in your special, it seems like all that is still just below the surface. It is. I mean, I don't know if anybody could ever recover from the loss of a child. I know Sharon moves on. She lives her life. It doesn't consume her. But she misses Lacey every day and she loves Lacey every day. And it's a terrible tragedy. And I think with all of the appeals, look, Scott Peterson and the team behind him have been appealing for the last 20 years. This hasn't, it hasn't gone away. Scott has been there presently and

Sharon has to be on the receiving end of that. And she hears what's happening. And now with this new DNA evidence that they've put forward, it's hard for her. It's hard for the entire family. Speaking of Scott Peterson, take a listen to Face to Face with Scott Peterson. A reminder, he had a chance to say all this in front of a jury, but he knew he would be cross-examined. Listen. Thanks for talking with me today. You didn't want to be a dad, didn't want to pay child support, didn't want to pay spousal. And this is the way you thought about getting out of it. I believe my brother-in-law, Scott, has been wrongfully convicted of that murder.

Okay, what about a burnt out, formerly bloody mattress? Peterson says we'll exonerate him. To Susan Hendricks, investigative journalist. What's he talking about? Yeah, there were two people arrested, though, connected to, I believe it was a burglary or robbery in the area during that same time period. But it doesn't mean, Nancy, that two bad things couldn't have happened during the same time. And I believe those involved in that have been questioned and wanted to prove so much so that they were not involved in the disappearance of Lacey. But that tape on Lacey's remains, on her pants and the DNA testing, will that show anything that will prove that Scott is innocent? That is the big question.

And I heard Skye say that she's wondering how Lacey died. And I don't believe we'll ever hear exactly how she was. And I remember through the years hearing her mother say that's what she wonders the most. How much did my daughter suffer and what really happened to her? And I don't see her ever finding the answer to that. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace to dr eric eason certified forensic pathologist dr eason her body was essentially skeletonized how can you ever get a cod on a skeletonized body well part of the problem was that only the torso was found and the head was never recovered. And so the best,

best guess that I have is that it was either a blunt force head trauma or gunshot wound to the head or strangulation or throat slash, something like that. But if the head is never going to be recovered, then the cause of death is probably never going to be found. I definitely know that the torso was found and there were no gunshot wounds or stab wounds or rib fractures or anything that would indicate that the trauma was to the torso. So, the cause of death is still unknown. Some evidence that Peterson is touting is said to include a burnt

van near the neighborhood, possibly connected to a burglary. The fire investigator in Modesto at the time investigated the burned out van. The vehicle was near the neighborhood and it had a mattress in the back with a brown stain on it. Some people feared it was human blood. Okay, I don't know if that will be enough to exonerate Scott Peterson since it's not connected to Lacey Peterson. That's the issue. Listen to this. You told me this elaborate lie about her missing and this tragedy and that this will be the first holidays without her. Sweetie, I never said Amber. God, I don't want to fight with you.

You know that I, I never said tragedy or missing. Oh, yes, you said you've lost your wife. No, that, that, yes. Obviously without me saying much, but we will talk about it. I said that I lost my wife. Yes, you did. I did. Lost my what? My wife, where?

Walmart? You lost your wife. Common terminology, she's dead. And then she was. But that's not all. Amber Fry, who many people have assailed, is a perfectly nice person. Now, mother, I've spoken to her many, many times. She truly believed she had hit the jackpot, found this great single guy. That's just what Lacey thought. But listen to more. This is the call that Peterson places to Amber during Lacey Peterson's missing vigil. Listen. Amber! I can hear you! Amber! I can hear you! Amber, you can hear me, it's New Years! I know! I can hear you too! Amber, New Years here, are you there? Yes, I'm having a good time! Amber!

Hey, Happy New Years! Happy New Years! I wanted to call you! Thank you! Amber, are you there? I'm here! Amber! I wish you could hear me! I'm on the, uh, I think, I think? I'm here. Amber? I wish you could hear me.

I'm on the, I think you're there. I'm near the Eiffel Tower. New Year's celebration is unreal. The crowd is huge. The crowd's huge? Amber? Yes, I'm here. Amber, you're there.

I can't hear you right now, but I'll call you on your New Year's. Okay, I'll be there. Amber? Amber, I're there. I can't hear you right now, but I'll call you on your neighbors. Okay, I'll be there. Amber. Amber, I'll meet you. I'll see you soon. Okay. I hope I'm good. The Eiffel Tower. My rear end. The Eiffel Tower. Richard Herman, he's calling his lover, claiming he's at the Eiffel Tower, and he's making the call during the vigil for his missing wife. That's why you can't put any credibility to things he's telling this woman. You just can't.

And you know, she, a former masseuse or whatever she was, she thought she hit the jackpot with him. So you're telling me you can't believe what he says to his mistress? Then why should I believe what he's saying now in order to get out of jail, to save his own skin? Why should I believe him now? Because people say stupid things if they're cheating and they're not honorable. They don't say the right things. They know what they're doing is wrong. So you can't take credibility for anything that he said to her.

And here's another thing, Nancy. If you really didn't want to be married, if you didn't really want to be in that relationship, he could have easily got a divorce. He didn't have to kill her. I mean, come on. That's the extreme, no? I met Scott Peterson November 20th, 2002. I was introduced to him. I was told he was unmarried.

Scott told me he was not married. We did have a romantic relationship. When I discovered he was involved in the Lucy Peterson disappearance case, I immediately contacted the Modesto Police Department. Although I could have sold or sold the photos of Scott and I to tabloids, I knew this was not the right thing to do. For fear of jeopardizing the case or the police investigation, I will not comment further. While the case is not all about Amber Frye, if it had not been for Amber Frye coming forward, I sometimes wonder if the case would ever have been cracked.

Joining me in all-star panel to Skye Borgman, the director of American Murder, Lacey Peterson on Netflix. Skye, what led you to take on this endeavor? Because you know, a competing streamer is going to come out with another special that is all about Peterson. But you chose this to be about the facts of the trial and about Lacey and Sharon. Yeah, you know, it's been 20 years since this was really in the media in a significant way. And I remember following it. But what was interesting to me is there were so many things that I either didn't know or details that I'd forgotten. And so sort of diving back into it and doing the research, it just became more and more clear to me what was happening, what was going on during the time, the different layers and intricacies of this trial, but also how it was really, it's not that much of a head scratcher.

You watch it and you're like, this seems to lead to a certain point. It's not a mystery. It's not that much of a head scratcher. You watch it and you're like, this seems to lead to a certain point. It's not a mystery. It's not unknown. It's pretty obvious what happened. And that's really something I got as I was doing the research for this. And it got to be very clear that this was a story about Lacey Peterson

and that the facts that were presented to a trial 20 years ago, 22 years ago, are still the facts today. I just wonder why, Skye, that so many people want to latch on to facts that are not true, that were brought up at trial, the jury heard them. Is it the sensationalism that someone else murdered Lacey? What is it? I think it's sensationalism. I think some of it may be denial. I think people want to believe in goodness in people. But I really, and I feel like there's a lot of misinformation out there as well. You know, as soon as things start getting on Reddit threads and all of these

different forums and somebody grabs onto something and it changes slightly, it's like this telephone game and it changes slightly again and it changes slightly again. And it becomes the truth without really looking at the actual evidence, at police reports. And so these ideas can sort of start to really grow into something that isn't truthful at all. It's really hard for me to look at Scott Peterson. I'm looking at him right now. Answering softball questions by some producer. When I look at him, Sky, I think about Lacey and how her life was cut short. The murder of a helpless pregnant woman

that could barely even go for a walk. And then Connor, their baby boy. She and her whole family were so ecstatic about the first baby, their world in front of them. And then I look at him. It's never about, gee, I didn't kill her, so let's find who did. It's never about that. It's always about him. Never a mention of, wow, if I didn't do it, who did? Never, never, Skye. Look, they've come up with theories. They've come up with theories about this robbery across the street, this burglary across the street that happened. And it must have been these burglars that absconded with her, grabbed her, threw her in a

van and took off with her. But even that, it's just timelines don't match up the color of the van. They've got this orange van now that's burnt out that was found a mile away. People reported seeing a white van in the neighborhood. The timeline of it is completely different. The burglars themselves say that they were there early morning hours. They couldn't have been there. The times, the dates, it's all sort of mixed up. And it just doesn't really lead to any consistency in any kind of story. And these burglars were burglars. They're not, I mean, I think it's a big step to go from being a burglar to go to being a murderer. And they were found, Skye. They were found and questioned and pollied.

Yeah. All I know is this. Looking at Sharon Orocha now in your special American Murder, Lacey Peterson, I see that her pain has not lessened. We wait as justice continues to unfold. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart podcast