Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Screen Star Alec Baldwin Deadly Shooting: WHAT HAPPENED?

Episode Date: October 26, 2021

The investigation into the shooting of two people on the set of Alex Baldwin's movie 'Rust' continues. Director of photography Halyna Hutchins was killed and director Joel Souza injured. Reports say first assistant director David Halls picked up one of the three prop guns that had been set up by armorer Hannah Gutierrez and yelled “cold gun.” "Cold gun" is industry slang meaning the gun did not contain live rounds. Halls gave the gun to Baldwin who was using the gun to rehearse a scene. The search warrant said Baldwin was aiming the weapon at the camera when he fired, striking Hutchins and Souza. Reports have surfaced that the weapon was used for target practice by crew members that morning.Joining Nancy Grace today: Paul Szych - Former Police Commander, Author: "StopHimFromKillingThem" on Amazon Kindle, StopHimFromKillingThem.com, Twitter: @WorkplaceThreat, Screen Actors Guild-Eligible Actor, Experience using firearms with blanks during live-action movie scenes (Terminator: Salvation) Domenic Romano - NY Corporate Lawyer and Entertainment Attorney, Romano Law www.romanolaw.com Dr. Shari Schwartz - Forensic Psychologist (specializing in Capital Mitigation and Victim Advocacy), www.panthermitigation.com, Twitter: https://twitter.com/TrialDoc, Author: "Criminal Behavior" and "Where Law and Psychology Intersect: Issues in Legal Psychology" Karen L. Smith - Forensic Expert, Lecturer at the University of Florida, Host of Shattered Souls Podcast, @KarensForensic, barebonesforensic.com Dr. Michelle Dupre - Forensic Pathologist and former Medical Examiner, Author: “Homicide Investigation Field Guide” & "Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide", Former Police Detective Lexington County Sheriff’s Department Alexis Tereszcuk - CrimeOnline.com Investigative Reporter, Writer/Fact Checker, Lead Stories dot Com, Twitter: @swimmie2009  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. In what has been billed as an accident, now a young mother is dead after movie superstar Alex Baldwin shoots what he believes to be a blank, but it is anything but a blank. And now a young woman is dead. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Tragedy on the film set of a new Alec Baldwin movie and what police are calling a misfire of a prop gun in Santa Fe, New Mexico. The sheriff's office there has just confirmed it was Baldwin who fired the prop gun that killed a 42-year-old female director of photography, Helena Hutchins. The film's director, Joel Souza, was also hurt. This incident happened on the set of the Western Rust. Now detectives are investigating what type of projectile discharged from this gun.

So far, no charges have been filed. Earlier today, Alec Baldwin did post a picture on social media from this set. You were just hearing our friend Christine Johnson with CBS. What really happened? According to reports, the assistant yelled out cold gun just before the shooting, which means the gun was safe, that it was loaded with a blank. So how do we have a woman dead, another film person injured? With me, an all-star panel to make sense of it all, if we can.

With me, Dominic Romano, lawyer joining us out of new york at romano law.com is specialty entertainment law and i can tell you somebody's gonna need a lawyer dr sherry schwartz forensic psychologist joining us karen l smith forensic expert host of shattered souls podcast at barebonesforensics.com. Paul Zeich, joining us, special guest, former police commander and author of Stop Him From Killing Them on Amazon. And he has lots of experience using firearms with blanks during live action movie scenes like Terminator, Salvation, Dr. Michelle Dupree, forensic path pathologist former medical examiner author of homicide investigation field guide and a former police detective but first to alexis

teres chuck crime online.com investigative reporter joining us from hollywood alexis what is getting folded into the story right or wrong is Alec Baldwin's history, his reputation for, let me just say, hot-headedness, to put it euphemistically. If he thought it was a blank and it should have been a blank, then history aside, it was an accident. But how can it really be an accident when somebody loaded this prop gun with real bullets? You know what? Just start at the beginning. Alexis, did you know the search warrant has just been released? And we learned a lot from that.

But you go ahead. So they were on a set in Santa Fe, New Mexico. It's a Western style movie. So they were sitting in a church Santa Fe, New Mexico. It's a western style movie. So they were sitting in a church an old church scene and Alec Baldwin was sitting in one of the pews and he was practicing what's called a cross draw. And so that

would be where the person takes your left hand and grabs the gun out of the holster on the opposite hip pulls it across to fire. He was practicing this move standing the cinematographer which is the person that makes practicing this move. Standing, the cinematographer, which is the person that makes the movie beautiful, this is the person that films the scene,

she was standing in front of him with the assistant director, I'm sorry, with the director standing right behind her. He was looking over her shoulder to see what it would look like when Alex pulled the gun out. He pulls it out of the side, points it at her to show them, pulls the trigger, and it fires a live round into her, hits her in the

stomach, and actually, I believe, goes through her and grazes the director standing right behind her. Hush is pronounced dead at an Albuquerque hospital after being rushed to the emergency room. You know what? I always love playing 911 calls for a jury because it takes you back to what's really happening. Not a description, not someone recounting what happened, but you're hearing what really happened. Take a listen to the beginning of that 911 call. Call. I'll connect you with medical dispatch if you don't need us. Who are you calling? Clear the road. San Jose Fire and EMS, what's the location of the emergency? The NASA crew has two people accidentally shot on a movie set by a prop gun.

We need help immediately. The NASA crew, come on. Stay on the phone with me. We're going to get some help, okay? Okay. What is your name? Mamie Mitchell. Ms. Mitchell, what's the phone number you're calling from? 5-0.

Don't hang up, okay? Hold on just one second. Okay. Don't hang up, okay? Hold on just one second. Sounds like somebody else is calling for two and a half hours. You better make sure it's good. Everybody should be. We need some help. Our director and our cameraman, the cameraman has been shot. Now, you hear repeatedly the word accident, accidentally throughout that.

But is it an accident? Very often when you have, for instance, a DUI crash, people go, well, it was an accident. But was it? Because the driver chooses to go to a bar to order drinks, to drink, to become legally intoxicated, to then get the car keys, walk to the car, get in the car, crank up, reverse, and drive out onto the roads. That sounds pretty deliberate. So is it an accident? Is it gross negligence? Well, take a listen to more of that 911 call. This dude that yelled at me at lunch could have been about revisions. Can you hear him yell at me? He put the chest and gun.

He's responsible for the dance. Are you a teacher now, Mimi? No, no, no. I'm a script supervisor. How many people were injured? Two that I know of. I was sitting and we were rehearsing and it went off and I ran out. We all ran out. They were butt-doubled over the ID and the camera woman and the director.

We're clearing the road. Can you come back? We're back on the way. We're back in the town. If you call them, we're back in the Western town. I'll be on my way, ma'am. Is there any serious bleeding? I don't know. I ran out of the building. That's fine. I still have to go through these, okay? Are they completely alert?

We don't know. I'm hearing a lot of discussion in the background. You hear the speaker talking to somebody else about someone yelling at her and Lutch about script revision. And she says she's supposed to check the gun. He's responsible for what happened. No, no. I'm a script revision. And she says she's supposed to check the gun. He's responsible for what happened. No, no, I'm a script supervisor. So I don't know a lot about movie sets. I can tell you more about a murder trial.

But I know this, a script supervisor should not be checking dangerous weapons. crime stories with nancy grace with me is paul zeich not only former police commander and author stopped him from killing them on Amazon. But at Twitter, at Workplace Threat, he's with the Screen Actors Guild, and he has experience using firearms with blanks during live action movie scenes. I could go on, but I think that sums it up for today.

Paul Zyke, thank you for being with us. What went wrong? Obviously, there was a live bullet in what should have been a prop gun, but what happened? Nancy, the only explanation for this is a systemic breakdown in systems that are in place to ensure that live ammunition is not present on the set. Okay, now that was a lot of words, Paul Zyke. I think you're saying somebody didn't do their job. Well, absolutely.

Somebody did not do their job and catastrophically did not do that. There's no reason whatsoever for live ammunition to be on the set of any set because these weapons are capable of firing live rounds. They're not really prop guns. They're deadly weapons being used as props. Okay, hold on right there. I want to make that distinction. You're absolutely right. When, look, I'm a trial lawyer.

I'm a legal expert. You're the expert in this world. When I say prop gun, I mean they're using it as a prop. But you're making a very fine, subtle but important distinction a prop gun is a fake gun i don't think it even can shoot is that right exactly you're talking about say a prop knife correct it has a flat edge on it it's incapable of cutting you these are things that are not deemed to be dangerous a prop gun is simply as on set, are weapons that are capable of firing live ammunition. And therefore, accidentally, live ammunition could be mixed with blank rounds.

You know, given time, this is just a disaster waiting to happen. They need to move to true prop guns that are incapable of chambering live ammunition. Until that happens, this has a very strong chance of repeating itself. Well, okay. Tell me this, Paul Zyke. Guys, with me, Paul Zyke, he is a former police commander. He's an author, screen actor's gill, and has experience using blanks during live action movie scenes where we all think they're shooting real guns.

If you suspend your disbelief in movies like his Terminator Salvation, those aren't real guns. So why are they using a real gun to start with, Paul Zyke? And I mean, to me, having been forced to handle so many guns and so many homicides, what moron wouldn't make sure that there were blanks in the gun? It's hard to imagine that during the loading of the weapon that that was not viewed very strictly as a weapon is loaded. And also there's a chain of custody issue here. On the scene of Terminator Salvation, as we would go out and we would conduct a battle scene, if you will, in the middle of the night, we would be handed directly

from the armor, fully automatic weapons and magazines fully loaded with blanks. And we would head straight out to where the scene was to be shot. And then we would engage in the scene, you know, five, 10 minutes later, hand the weapon straight back to the armor, all the ammunition back to the armor, all the magazines back to the armor. And we would not be able to touch those weapons again until the next scene. So from a chain of custody standpoint, it went directly from the armor directly to my hand, my, you know, the co-actor's hands that were with me. And that was maintained very strictly. Hold on, Paul. I've got to soak in everything you're saying because Dominic Romano, a high profile lawyer joining us out of New York is specialty entertainment law. That's why Dominic's

joining us today. Dominic, hold on. When you heard Paul Zykes say chain of custody, I immediately thought of a serial murderer that I prosecuted on one murder. We could get him on one. And there ended up, I would say three weeks before trial, I was just looking at the evidence and I noticed that the bag that contained the evidence wasn't signed. It had never been signed by the homicide cop that picked it up from, it was DNA in there, it was blood, from where it had been taken and carried to the crime lab. It wasn't written on

the back. Did anybody tamper with it? No, he just didn't put his initials. I'm like, oh, dear Lord in heaven, the chain is broken. This could be attacked at trial. I had to go back out to the jail, stand there and look at this killer while he pulled his blood again. Then I carried it with my investigator, myself, back to the crime lab to have it retested. Praise the Lord in heaven. It was his DNA. Long story short, that's chain of custody.

Your case can be lost. You can lose a serial killer because somebody didn't keep the chain to preserve the integrity of the trial. That's what I thought when Paul Zyke said chain of custody. But did you also hear him say, Dominic Romano, he handed it back to the, it sounded like he was saying armor or armory, but I've been reading about this case. It's an armorer. Armorer. Who is the person in charge of all the weapons. Hey, somebody is either going to jail or they're going to lose their house over a lawsuit, Dominic Romano. I think you're right, Nancy. And I think Paul is absolutely right.

Look, in 2021, no one should ever be killed by a gun on a film set, period. Those are the words of Brandon Lee's sister. Brandon Lee shot on a film set in the early 1990s. This should not happen. There are established protocols, chains of command. Nancy said someone either going to jail or lose their house is highly likely here. I mean, there appears to be some serious gross negligence on that set to allow that to happen. That is the appearance. And I don't know what evidence can come out to rebut that presumption. A live round in, well, as Paul Zyke has corrected me, it's not a prop gun. They were using real guns real guns hey let me ask you a question paul

zeich explain the difference and what a blank looks like as opposed to a live round a bullet we're saying live rounds we're talking about a bullet what's the difference can't you just look at them and you can see the difference in most cases absolutely It's very clear. You can see the difference in some types of calibers, say 223, if you will. That's what an AR-15 would shoot. The blanks are kind of crimped at the end to almost look like there's a bullet on the end of them. But any sort of trained professional whatsoever, when you're handling a blank, you know it's a blank. When it's a bullet, you know it's a bullet. The blank does not have a lead projectile or a steel projectile at the end of the round. So at the end, it's either flat or it's slightly crimped to hold in the gunpowder, which, you know, the firearm usually needs the gunpowder to correctly function the weapon and cycle the weapon,

and it's one of the reasons why blanks are used. Okay, Paul Zyke, I really respect you, but you're going to have to dummy down for me, okay? Because I would have to put you through intensive training before you took the stand because a lot of people do not know what you just said. Just think about it and think if there's a way you can say it in more simple terms. What's the difference between a blank and a live bullet when you look at it? Speak English, man. In the meantime, wait a minute.

You mentioned Brandon Lee, and you're absolutely right. We pulled sound of other cases almost identical to this. This is not the first time it's happened, believe it or not. Tyler, could you roll our cut 44? Let's follow up on what Paul Zyke said about Brandon Lee. Here's where the bullet comes from that killed Brandon Lee. Some believe a piece of a prop bullet without gunpowder in it may have been left accidentally in the gun. When the blank was fired at Brandon, some feel it shot out the prop bully, mortally wounding him. The movie was an accident waiting to happen. The Crow crew member we spoke with says that there

were many opportunities for an accident to happen. Are the working conditions on the set of The Crow particularly bad? Extremely long hours, 18-hour days back to back at times, pushing 90 to 100 hours a week in six-day weeks is way too much. Do you think that that overwork, that exhaustion might have resulted in this accident? Safety precautions, all of them were definitely not followed. It could have been prevented with better management. The publicist for the movie The Crow denies that the working conditions were unsafe. Certainly everyone was very tired and exhausted from the shoot,

but these are professionals, and they're used to working conditions like this. Okay, guys, you are hearing our friends at Inside Edition, and I want to follow up on what we're just hearing with Alexis Tereschuk. I played that sound for a reason, Alexis, because on the Alec Baldwin set of Rust, there apparently were problems with working conditions. A group of the crew had walked out, I think the night before, claiming that they had bad hotels. They were an hour away from a hotel or motel. And if they worked late into the night, they'd have to drive

through, I guess, the desert. And a lot of them were actually sleeping in their cars overnight. That's just some of the complaints I've heard. But what are the other complaints, if any, on the Alec Baldwin movie set? Well, there have been complaints that things were not safe, quote. But one of the, the person that is being directly blamed for a lot of the unsafe is when you were listening to the 911 call and you said you heard the woman saying that he was yelling at me, things like that. This is the assistant director that they're talking about. And this is the assistant director, David Halls, who handed the gun to Baldwin and said, this is a cold gun. So what the people on the set were saying is that Halls was not a responsible person. He was very angry.

He was making the job very difficult for everybody to do, and they didn't trust him. Wait a minute. You're saying David Halls was an assistant director? Yes. Okay, well, what about the armorer? Isn't she the one responsible for all the weapons and the blanks or the bullets? Guys, take another listen to our cut 43 this is about practically the same thing happening before listen it was here at the carol co studios in

wilmington north carolina that actor brandon lee was filming the crow ironically the film is about a man who dies and comes back to life to avenge his death. Shortly after midnight last Tuesday, Brandon Lee was preparing to film a routine action scene. The script called for him to get shot at as he walked through a door carrying a bag of groceries. Michael Massey, the actor doing the shooting, is reportedly devastated by Lee's death and remains in seclusion. The gun he was using was supposed to be loaded with blanks.

When the cameras rolled, Brandon Lee was performing for the last time. Mr. Lee's heart stopped and efforts to resuscitate him were unsuccessful. Wednesday afternoon, Brandon Lee was pronounced dead. The autopsy revealed some shocking information. A.44 caliber bullet was removed from Lee's body. Detectives are proceeding with the investigation. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Straight out to Karen L. Smith, forensic expert, host of Shattered Souls podcast, barebonesforensic.com. Weigh in, Karen Smith.

Well, we deal a lot with forensics and physics when we do a reconstruction. We use snippets of time, and sometimes that can be split seconds. And this includes trajectories of projectiles. And this trajectory can generally be explained by the reporting. Alec Baldwin was reported to be sitting at a church pew to align a camera angle when the gun was fired. Helena Hutchins then collapsed on the floor and Joel Souza was struck in the clavicle.

That's an upward trajectory, which means both Hutchins and Souza were standing up when the event occurred. The projectile, now that has yet to be officially named as a specific caliber bullet or as something else that came out of the gun muzzle that perforated Helena's body and subsequently struck Joel. Now, in order for that to happen, the kinetic energy, which is energy as the result of motion, would be very high. We're dealing with mass or the amount of matter in an object and energy dispersion.

Guns carry a high volume of energy in a small space and that from my experience it tells me that it was something other than just the paper or plastic wadding from a blank round. That needs to be confirmed by the ME and the investigators but there are reports of live ammunition

bullets being on the set and that particular gun allegedly being used for target practice that morning there's a lot of questions that need to be answered by the investigators and the me a gun a gun for the set being used as target practice paul's like that that shouldn't be that you've got crew members out shooting bottles i i think that that's coming out with live bullets and use that same gun for a scene and and and a church full of people and nancy i just want to clarify the prior point so very simply a blank is is a is a shell casing with gunpowder in it with no bullet a bullet is the

same exact thing with more gunpowder and a a live bullet at the end of it that is made to travel through the barrel and exit the weapon. But back to what you were saying, that's a cardinal rule that's been broken. keeping live ammunition away from weapons that fire live ammunition and keeping weapons that fire blanks away from those instances. And when you mix those two together, the odds of somebody having a spare live round in one of their pockets or you name it is super high. And that sounds very sloppy. And it just just opens the door for terrible things to happen, and that's where the systemic breakdown in that controlled environment. Well, I'm telling you, Paul Zyke, you're right. Super sloppy is one way to put it.

Gross negligence or unintentional murder is another way to put it. I think I hear Dominic Romano jumping in. Go ahead. Yeah, basically it's a catastrophic miscalculation. I think two people here should be focused on. One is the armor, right? This is only, according to reports, her second movie with Charis Reid and the assistant director, Dave Hall, as you mentioned before. According to reports, he was fired from a 2019 production of Freedom's Path.

Okay, that's not good. After two members suffered a minor injury. Whoa, wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait. You got me drinking from the fire hydrant, which is not a bad thing. It's too much at once. Hold on. Why in the world would you have somebody that was fired off another similar job handling your weapon?

Okay, is that what you just said, Dominic? Okay, almost. Almost. So the armorer is 24 years old. The person handling the weapons is only her second film. She was just in a podcast last month where she said, you know, she was a bit nervous about her film, but it went well. Her father is apparently a famous armorer. Okay, so we have that, an inexperienced armorer.

Number two, we have the assistant director, known as the AD, Dave Hulse. Apparently, according to a report, he was fired from a 2019 production. The movie was Freedom Path. After a crew member suffered, guess what? A minor injury when a gun unexpectedly discharged. Dominic Romano, the word similar transactions are jumping to mind. I mean, if there is a trial, you know that previous incident is going to come in. I mean, this solidifies my thought that this is not an accident because an accident is when you totally don't see it coming.

It's just like out of the blue. But if this guy, if it's correct, the AD had a previous incident where somebody was shot on a set, even if it was a minor injury, then you should have seen either knew or should have known. Would you agree with that, Dominic Romano? There are going to be some serious questions to be asked and there have to be answers. And if we don't have good answers, someone is either going to be involved in a very expensive lawsuit or depending on what they knew and when they knew it and how careless they were, probably facing some time. The other issue you alluded to earlier is cost cutting. It's rampant in the industry right now. We're coming out of a pandemic and the production company's decision not to book the crew hotel rooms near the actual set, but to have them travel an hour in each direction to get to and from

their accommodation, to have long hours where people walked off the set earlier that day in protest. So this is a combination of what turned out to be a lethal combination, a catastrophic calculation on the part of the production company. Well, you just said a mouthful all in a good way between the armorer being inexperienced, the AD having a prior similar transaction, and budget cuts, problems amongst the crew. Take a listen to our cut six from our friends at NewsNation now. Let's start with the people responsible for handling a gun.

There are no ubiquitous rules across all film sets, but generally there are some guidelines that they follow adhering to a budget. Budget usually plays a big role. On many sets, there are no fewer than three people responsible for monitoring a weapon. A prop master, who's in charge of all props, is often supported by a safety officer and a stunt coordinator. And depending on the state, you may also need to bring in an armorer whose only job is handling weapons. An armorer is required by New Mexico state law. So the point is, just like Dominic Romano was saying, budget plays a big role. Well, you know what? You can tell that to the victim and the victim's child and husband. crime stories with nancy grace to you dr michelle dupree forensic pathologist former medical examiner author of homicide

investigation field guide i can go on and on dr d. Dupree, I'm sure you, like myself, have had to handle weapons in front of juries. And I learned this from watching a pro try cases. I would always pick the gun up, holding it face down with a barrel pointing to the ground so the jury or anyone else would not be alarmed. What you don't want to do is scare your jury. I would walk in front of the jury holding the weapon, nose down, open the chamber, let them see me check it, hold it up like I was examining it through, you know, at my eye level so they can see that it was empty, and then shut it, and then give it to the witness without fail. Even if it was a weapon that I knew was inoperable, that was S-O-P. Why would that not occur on a movie set? But describe how you're supposed to handle weapons.

Exactly, Nancy. You described it perfectly. That is exactly what you should do. And if you're giving a weapon to someone else, normally you have the chamber open so that they can also see. And then you both check it and know that it's empty or that the blanks are in it. Tell me what you can discern about what Karen Smith, forensics expert, just told us about the injuries.

What happened? Nancy, even though these are, quote, prop guns or blanks, they can still obviously do devastating damage. The wadding or whatever they are filled with, even in a blank. But this was not a blank. This was an actual projectile. And as we know... You mean a bullet?

Speak English, please. A bullet. Yes. Yes, this was a bullet. And the caliber of that bullet, of the gun, is what is going to determine how much damage is done. As she explained, the higher the caliber, the more energy in that bullet.

And so the more damage done to the physical body. And of course, the location where that bullet enters the body, in this case, was devastating. You know, another issue to Dr. Sherry Schwartz, I've been on a lot of TV sets, obviously, and movie sets for, you know, cameos or some legal issue. And I got to tell you, Dr. Sherry Swartz, a movie set takes on a whole, it's like you're in a different world. Like when you go to the movies and you sit down and it goes dark, your mind takes you there. When you're on a movie set, I've never been on a single movie set that went on time. You go till one or two o'clock in the morning. It's pitch dark outside.

You keep going until you get the shot or you finish the scene or whatever it's called in movie world. I think that there is a suspended fear. You think you're at a movie set, like when you go to Disneyland or when you're on vacation on a cruise ship, you suspend your normal thinking. It doesn't seem real. And you're not thinking, wow, there's a gun. I could get shot because it's, quote, just a movie. It's not real. How do we, let me just say, suspend our disbelief, suspendpend rational rules of functioning. When you're on a

movie set or in a movie, you know, like in movies where there's some nut with a gun and you hear a sound, but you don't think it's real because you're in a movie. What happens in the human mind, Dr. Sherry? Well, when you don't think that something is actually real, then you would not calculate accurately what the potential risks are. Right. And so there is this gun on the set, but everybody thinks, oh, it's just make believe we're setting this up to film it. Nobody's actually going to get hurt. And so what happens mentally is that you underestimate what the potential risks are. And what happened here is an egregious underestimation, right? So for the rest of us, it's make-believe. Maybe even for the actor, they know that they're just playing a role and

everybody around them might know they're playing a role. But there are people on the set who are responsible for that gun and for taking that proper care and knowing what the potential risks are. Back to you, Alexis Teresha, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. You have heard Dominic Romano, Paul Zeit, well, everyone on the panel weighing in. But apparently there were a lot of problems and a lot of disgruntled crew members. I understand that one of the motels they had set them up to stay overnight was at a place for the homeless and there were drug addicts there. They were afraid to stay there. What was going on on the set? Well, it seems like what they were trying to do was make this film as cheaply as possible understandable but

they were putting people's lives at risk it was 50s hotels were 50 miles away so after working 14 hour days the crew was having to drive over an hour to get to their hotel then they would have to be back within like six hours so they would get almost no sleep at all they were also saying that things were just not safe there had been an incident a few days earlier that one of the prop guns, again, prop gun, real gun, had been accidentally fired. And so the crew had been complaining to the producers saying this is not a safe working environment. And they walked off the set. And so Hollywood is very much a union business, but the producers hired non-union people to replace them. These non-union people, though, are not the people. It's not the armor,

and it's not the assistant director. And everybody's been talking, there is a line of protocol. You have so many steps in the line of defense so that when this gun got to Alex Baldwin, at least two other people were responsible for saying that it wasn't loaded. I mean, didn't somebody even scream out cold gun? I mean, they have to yell it out. You know what you were just saying? I know so many times for different shoots. I don't know who he is that carries that comes over and they have to do it a certain way. They have to say a certain thing and they say it really loudly. I don't know why,

but I'm sure there's a reason for it. Just like they would yell out cold gun and everybody would hear it. But I guess they yelled it out without checking alexis and there are reports that yes there so there were three guns that were set up and they were put on a table outside the church set and this is because of covid 19 protocols so not a lot of people are are in the if it's an enclosed set they're not there three guns so the assistant director picked it up is dave halls as as the other guy said you, has a history of a lot of accidents on set and handed it to Baldwin. And he is the one that yelled out, cold gun. There's no, nobody has said, there's so many people have spoken to the police on the set, so many of the other crew members. And they said they didn't know whether it actually was empty or not.

And these guns were used at lunch. This is a post-lunch break. So they broke for lunch at 1230. They come back after lunch. During that lunchtime, there are reports that the crew members were using this gun and other guns to shoot beer bottles out in the desert area and using it as target practice. So there could have been alive. And Mary said there was lots of live ammunition. Nobody was told they couldn't bring live ammunition on set.

That's another thing that... Why do you need a live round on set? That's the big problem here. Is that Paul? Jump in. Yeah, I'd like to jump in there. It's simply a breakdown of the security of the scene. The only people there that are armed should be security personnel. And, you know, in my years, my decade of fighting to keep workplaces safe

and to stop stalking offenders from killing victims, I can tell you one thing, and that is nobody thinks the unthinkable is going to happen. It's a matter of just human thinking. They think that, well, that happened to somebody else. It didn't happen to happen. It's a matter of just human thinking. They think that, well, that happened to somebody else. It didn't happen to me. And because this is somewhat of a rare occurrence on set, people got laxed. They got lackadaisical about fundamental when it comes to shooting a scene such as this. And just like at any workplace, this is a workplace out in the middle of the desert, just like it would be in an office building. Those protocols broke down and people at work attempting to do the right thing

for the right reasons had a catastrophic, devastating thing happen because we as human beings think, well, if it hasn't happened, it won't happen. And that's just not the reality of life when it comes to dangerous events. You know, Alec Baldwin is a great, great actor. A lot of people don't like him because he rubs them the wrong way with his jokes, with his actions, with, you know, just a history of comments and behavior that irritates some people. But I can tell you this, when I saw the photos of him literally doubled over in grief, I don't think that was acting. I think that was real. Who bears the fault of the death of a beautiful young woman?

I'm sure her husband and little child are looking for answers. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.