Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Search Continues to ID Tot Boy Found Dead in Fabulous Vegas Suitcase: WHO IS HE?

Episode Date: September 5, 2022

The little boy found dead in a suitcase has now been laid to rest, in an unmarked grave. The mushroom hunter who found the "Fabulous Vegas" suitcase , Jeff Meredith, says he will not rest until the boy has a name. Investigators say child  died from an electrolyte imbalance. The medical examiner says that the imbalance was most likely due to a “viral gastroenteritis” caused by excessive vomiting or diarrhea. State police are still working to identify the boy, believed to be about 5 years old.  Toxicology tests came back negative and the boy had no severe injuries. Police do not believe the boy was alive when he was placed inside the suitcase.  The little boy is described as just under 4 feet tall and about 40 pounds, with a slim build and a short haircut. Indiana State Police have set up a national tip line at [phone].   Joining Nancy Grace today: Kathryn Marsh - Special Victims Liaison for the State’s Attorney's Office (Charles County, MD), Co-Founder: Right Response Consulting, "No Grey Zone" Podcast", RightResponseConsulting.com, Instagram/Twitter: @nogreyzoneRRC   Dr. Alan Blotcky PhD - Clinical and Forensic Psychologist (Birmingham, AL) specializing in Criminal, Child Custody and Abuse, Clinical Associate Professor at University of Alabama at Birmingham   Karen L. Smith - Forensic Expert (Los Angeles, CA),  Lecturer at the University of Florida, Host of Shattered Souls Podcast, @KarensForensic, barebonesforensic.com   Dr. Michelle DuPre - Former Forensic Pathologist, Medical Examiner and Detective: Lexington County Sheriff's Department, Author: "Homicide Investigation Field Guide" & "Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide", Forensic Consultant, DMichelleDupreMD.com  Max Lewis - Reporter, FOX59 (Indianapolis), Twitter/Instagram: @MaxLewisTV, Facebook.com/MaxLewisTV   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Imagine walking through a beautiful cop's dense dense woods enjoying your morning when suddenly you see a Welcome to the Fabulous Las Vegas suitcase. And, of course, curiosity gets the better of you. You open it up and you don't find a lot of casino chips. You don't find a lot of money inside. You find a dead boy. That is

exactly what happened. The body of a five year old little boy found in a Welcome to Vegas suitcase. But now, who is he and how did he get there? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. First of all, take a listen to our friends at WHAS. Shocking story that's been developing since the weekend. New evidence released by Indiana State Police moments ago in the discovery of a little boy's

body in the woods in southern Indiana. The chilling reality that he may have been dumped there from somewhere else. This photo of a suitcase. Indiana State Police tell us the body of the little boy was found inside this suitcase. And for the first time, they have given a specific location, the 7000 block of East Holder Road in Washington County, Indiana, the wooded area there that's southeast of Salem. Now, the discovery was made by a person hunting for mushrooms over the weekend. Also new today, an autopsy was performed. Police have not released any results, nor they've released no possible cause of death, and they still do not know his identity. We do know that police say the boy is only five to eight years old. They add that he

could have been from anywhere, not just southern Indiana. Investigators say they have been searching the wooded area where the boy was found, but the information has not led them to any answers. Again, a five-year-old little boy stuffed into a suitcase, and the only clue we have so far is a sticker of sorts on the suitcase that says, Welcome to the fabulous Las Vegas, with the iconic photo there where so many people take a picture in front of it of the background of Vegas. Why?

Who is this little boy? How did he die? How can we trace his whereabouts? Because that's the only way we're going to find out who put him in that suitcase. Again, I'm Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us here on Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. We've got an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now, but very first, I want to go to Max Lewis, investigative reporter with Fox 59, joining

us out of Indianapolis. Max, thank you so much for being with us. First of all, what can you tell me about the area where the suitcase was found? Yeah, this is in Washington County, Indiana. It's about a little over halfway from Indianapolis down to about the Louisville area. And it's extremely rural. You know, it really is shocking that this kind of thing would happen here. These people don't really see much going on down there. And for them to find a boy in a suitcase is pretty shocking. But as you said, the person that found this was doing mushroom hunting. So you think you can't just do that in some city, some urban area. So he was in a pretty rural area on some country roads,

not too far off the interstate, actually. Okay, Max Lewis joined me from Fox 59. I've got so many questions for you, Max. You said it's halfway between Louisville and what? It's halfway between Louisville and Indianapolis on the I-65 corridor there. How far away is this from I-65? It's only a couple miles from what I've been told from police off of the interstate there. Hmm, a couple of miles off the interstate. With me, as I said, an all-star panel, but before we get going with them, having spoken to Max Lewis with Fox 59, I want you to

take a listen to our friends at WHAS 11. The man who found this boy, Jeff Meredith, is in agony, knowing he was one of the last people to see this child's face. When I first saw that little fella, immediately I felt that he was telling me, help me. I need help. The Washington County Sheriff's Office is holding a memorial service for the little boy. The community is invited to honor him next Wednesday, June 1st, at 11 in the morning. It will be held at Weathers Funeral Home in Salem. And remember, if you know anything about an unreported missing boy,

about five years old, short hair, and about 40 pounds, or if you saw this suitcase in Southern Indiana, contact ISP at its designated tip line for this case. That number is 888-437-6432. Repeat, 888-437-6432. Straight out to Dr. Michelle Dupree, former forensic pathologist, medical examiner, and detective, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide and Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide, which we need your expertise in both of these areas. Dr. Michelle Dupree, first of all, I want to talk to you about the location. Location, location, location. It's not just about real estate. It gives me a plethora of clues we're going to need to figure this thing out.

First of all, you've got a very rural, densely wooded area halfway between Indiana and Louisville. It's just a few miles off the I-65 corridor. Now, what does that tell me? And what can I learn from the area and from the suitcase? Dr. Dupree, can I talk to you about mushroom hunting? Because when someone finds a body, they're the first person you look at. When somebody calls 911, they're the first person you look at. In no way has the mushroom hunter come under suspicion, but that is a starting place. Let's talk about mushroom hunting in itself. Dr. Michelle Dupree, that was, let me just say,

you don't hear that every day, right? That's right, Nancy, you don't. Well, Dr. Michelle Dupree, I was expecting a little more from you than the yes no you just gave me let me go to max lewis joining me fox 59 apparently morel season is upon us morel mushrooms love indiana tell me about it yeah they sure do sure do. They start when the beginning of spring, and this suitcase was found in early April. So right about the time, a lot of people do it. It's a very common activity. They go out. They go to deeply wooded areas.

They search for these morel mushrooms. And they're pretty actually hard to find and kind of rare. So if you come upon them, you're doing a pretty good job. But it's a common activity that a lot of people do. So wouldn't really raise any suspicion that this guy was going out and doing that at this time. Old-timers say, quote, when the oak leaves are the size of a mouse's ear, that's the time to look for morels. Okay, I'm going to take that with a box of salt.

Max Lewis, again, this guy that finds the body is not under suspicion. What I'm saying is that's where you start your investigation. If you've got nothing else and joining me, Karen L. Smith, forensic expert, joining us out of L.A., Lecturer University, Florida, host of a hit series, Shattered Souls podcast. Karen, we got nothing. So that's why I'm talking about this guy. This guy is not under suspicion. He's not even a person of interest. He's not a suspect. I'm saying very simply that when you've got nothing, that's where you start your investigation. And I guess we could also start with the suitcase and what the little boy is wearing. But let's finish it up about the mushroom hunter. Yeah, he's not under suspicion and nor should he be, Nancy.

I think... Well, wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, wait, wait. I don't think he should be. No, that's where you start. Somebody's standing there with a dead body. You darn right the cops better investigate that guy. Oh, absolutely.

I'm talking about questioning him. I don't think that he should be under suspicion for doing anything wrong. I think he came upon a suitcase. I think his voice tells the story. He was very distraught. Oh, hey, Karen. Yeah. Just remember the poor soul.

I think his name was Ray Kronk that found Tot Mom's daughter, Kelly Anthony, that guy was so mistreated online by so many people, he started calling police weeks before they finally came out and followed up on his call. He said he saw something weird and strange off the road. And I've been to the spot many times. It is off the road. But if you look carefully, you can see back into, again, a densely wooded area.

Finally, it had rained. The rain stopped. He called them again. They finally came out. And it was the remains of this little beautiful girl, Kelly Anthony, who many people to this day believe was murdered by her mother, top mom Casey Anthony. And he was demonized. He was demonized when he's the one that did a good deed.

And I believe that's what happened here. But since we've got nothing, that's the launching spot for cops to talk to this guy that finds the body. Right. And there's something else I'd like to talk to this guy that finds the body right and there's something else i'd like to point out with regard to the suitcase and where it was found you can do a little bit of criminal profiling from the person who actually did leave it there there was a handle that you can retract or you can uh put it down was that handle retracted or left extended was it just tossed away or was that suitcase placed down flat and face up? Was it hidden or left out to be found? This tells me about the person and whether or not they cared enough for this little boy to place it down, which means they may have spent maybe a

moment there. Maybe they left something of themselves behind before they walked away. So it may be worth another search of that area. Looking at the suitcase, where it was found, how it was found, can tell you a little bit about the person who did leave it there. You know, thinking about the suitcase as well, I'd like to find out, was it new? Was it bought specifically for this purpose? If it was, that tells me the little boy had been in Vegas or at least in the area of Vegas. Because, I mean, you can go to the airport, you can go to a lot of places surrounding Vegas,

and you can find that type of Las Vegas, you know, paraphernalia, touristy stuff all over the state. So I'm wondering about that. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me right now, in addition to Max Lewis, Fox 59, Dr. Michelle Dupree, medical examiner, Karen Smith, forensics expert. Catherine Marsh is with us from the Special Victims Liaison. Joining us from Charles County, co-founder of Right Response Consulting, and she's the star of the No Gray Zone podcast. Catherine, jump in. Yeah, I think there's a lot of information from the suitcase and the location. But for me, it's most important the fact that there's been no discussion about this child.

Nobody's talking about there's been a missing child. I want to know, how do we have a child that's been was discovered over a month ago? Nobody's reported a missing. We don't have any records from a school reporting a young child missing or a daycare. Was this child ever in the public domain? Those are all factors that I would want to know because when we're talking about where the suitcase was located...

You know, you're absolutely correct. You're absolutely correct. Nothing has indicated that a child matching this description is missing. And I want to remind everybody about a case called Little Miss Nobody. Take a listen to our cut one. This is Justin Lum, Fox 10 Phoenix. Little girl between three and five years old, found partially buried in the desert back in 1960. The case still haunts the Yavapai County Sheriff's Office.

Who is this little girl in the sketch dubbed Little Miss Nobody? Her partially buried remains found at Sandwash Creek in Congress, Arizona, on July 31, 1960. Investigators believe her remains had been burned one to two weeks before she was discovered. The cause of death, undetermined yet suspicious, and it was ruled a homicide. That case goes on and on and on. It is certainly not the first time we've encountered an unidentified child dead. What do we know about this case? We were talking about the suitcase.

Now, Karen Smith joining us from Shattered Souls podcast was describing some emotional attachment, the killer or the person that disposed of the body. That person may have had to the child. You know what? Sorry, Karen, don't care. I only care to the extent it could tell me who left this child there. That's all I care about. I don't care about their emotions because they're going to rot in hell, number one. I'm interested in the

forensic aspect. Are there any fingerprints? Is there any fiber? If this was a used suitcase, maybe there's fiber or DNA of some sort in there that can help me track back to the adult that left this, we believe, five-year-old little boy folded up in a suitcase like he was an old pair of pajamas. Take a listen now to our cut number two. This is Dakota Sherrick at WDRB. Right now, Indiana State Police isn't giving too many details on this case, but investigators do believe that somebody out there knows something that can help them figure out who this child was. We are looking for the public's help in finding out the name of this child, this little boy who deserves answers.

He deserves our help. Sergeant Kerry Hulls said Saturday night a mushroom hunter in the woods in rural Washington County discovered the body of a young boy. He noticed something and went to investigate and that's what he found. So very disturbing, very shocking, very traumatic event, very sad event, not just for the person who located it but the officers that are involved also. Holes said the boy is likely between five and eight years old. He's about four feet tall with a slim build and short haircut. Investigators believe the boy died within the last week. State police say they're not releasing details about where the boy was found

or what he was wearing to protect their investigation. I don't know how much it's protecting the investigation, but okay. Dr. Alan Blocky joining us, clinical forensic psychologist joining us out of Birmingham, specializing in criminal and child cases. He is Professor, University of Alabama, Birmingham. Dr. Blocky, thank you for being with us. Now, Karen L. Smith was describing a potential emotional attachment to the boy by the person who left the body there. The only reason I'm remotely interested in emotional attachments to this child that was

so horribly abandoned is, can it be a clue to tell me who did this? But I'm wondering, Dr. Block, who would leave their child like that? Again, let me hearken back to top mom Casey Anthony. And one of her many and varied defenses was that little Kelly died in a swimming pool unattended. And that her grandfather, George Anthony, fished her out. And then as opposed to calling 911, this former cop decided that he would put her in a trash bag and throw her in the woods. Okay, that didn't happen. George Anthony did not do that. If this child had died naturally, wouldn't the guardian, the parent, call 911? Why would you put your child in a suitcase and leave it in the woods unless there was a nefarious aspect to the death well i mean you're right it certainly sounds like

it's a nefarious kind of thing of course what this child died from is going to be critical uh i guess you could say the parents panicked. I mean, maybe that's the best spin you can put on it. At best, they panicked. But it certainly makes no sense. It's certainly throwing out the trash. Oh, gosh. When you said that, that just hurt me. And you're right.

To them, it was like throwing out the trash. I'm going to follow up on what Dr. Alan Blackie just told us. But speaking of COD, take a listen to Demi Johnson, WISH-TV. State police say the young child was around five years old based on a dental examination. Hull says, unfortunately, the boy's autopsy did not give police the clarity they were hoping for but it does tell them the boy had been in someone's recent care the autopsy did confirm that we're talking about a death probably within the past week now um we're not talking about skeletal remains or anything like that you know the fact that the autopsy doesn't reveal any cause

of death and the fact that it's only, you know, days old since that horrific event occurred says a lot, you know, as far as what we found. Obviously, somebody cared for him. Whoever that is isn't coming forward for whatever reason. There's more than one reason that could be. State police tell me they've received about 500 calls on the case, but they want to remind people to not call them about children already listed as missing around the country. They're already investigating those cases. To Dr. Michelle Dupree joining us, we typically hear about an identification made through DNA or fingerprints. On children, you don't have fingerprints. I don't know why they still do footprints at the hospital as opposed to fingerprints, but they do.

So there's no way to track the child through fingerprints. Here we hear a dental exam. Now, while it's not identifying who the child is, what's the point of the dental exam? Well, Nancy, we'll do a dental exam so that if and when a suspected child, someone might suspect that this child is, then we can compare dental records with that person. But without a comparison, the dental exam is really useless. We're hoping to gain a comparison with some child found or reported missing in the future.

Dr. Dupree, why don't hospitals do fingerprints as opposed to a footprint? Nancy, I do not know. I think that's an excellent thing to do, as well as through DNA. I think they should do DNA and fingerprints. Fingerprints never change during our whole lifetime, and no two fingerprints are the same. Exactly. So if you have an adult print, if you find an adult,

can the adult fingerprint be matched to a child fingerprint? Oftentimes. Of course, it's going to be larger, but there are certain distinguishing characteristics, we call them points, that very well would be in the child's fingerprint as well as in the adult fingerprint. You know, Dr. Dupree, let me ask you this as well. We just heard from police sources that the child had only been in the suitcase for a few days. How can you tell that?

Nancy, we can tell that by the state of the body, the amount of decomposition or not, the way that that body decomposes in that type of atmosphere. Because it was left outside, because it was in a suitcase, because it is warm weather, decomposition is going to happen faster. So we take all of those things into account when we determine the time of death. Joining me, Max Lewis, reporter of Fox 59 out of Indianapolis. Max, again, thank you for being with us. You heard Dr. Michelle Dupree respond to my question by mentioning the weather.

What is the weather in that area at this time of the year? It still would have probably been cool. I would say the average high in a day would be 50 degrees, maybe into the low 60s. And overnight, it could get down into the high 30s and possibly into even the freezing temperatures. We might have been a little bit out of freezing range at that point, but I think that could affect things. I'll let the experts speak to that as far as temperature-wise. Right, right. Dr. Michelle Dupree, does that support or detract from your theory?

It actually supports it because the body would have been in a closed container, which means it's probably going to be protected somewhat from the environment. And the fact that it doesn't get down too terribly low is still going to make that sort of a warm weather environment. So, yes, it's still accurate. You know, Max Lewis joining me from Fox 59 Indianapolis, I'm very surprised that the police are not releasing the outfit the little boy was wearing. And I'll tell you why. Because when the twins were this age, I had special T-shirts for them,

little matching outfits. Lucy at that time still always wore a bow before she broke my heart and quit wearing bows. I always had, John David was obsessed with dinosaurs and choo-choo trains, a lot of his, and cars. A lot of his clothing had that emblazoned on the front.

Any idea why they're keeping that a secret, Max Lewis? So what they've told us is that they are keeping the boys' clothes, they're keeping the, not releasing the boys' clothes because they don't want to disrupt or compromise the integrity of the investigation.

I don't know what I'm not a police officer. I don't know why police do what they do. But like you said, it seems like that would be really helpful in identifying this boy. But I'll leave it to them to decide. You're right, Max Lewis. Karen Smith, there are reasons sometimes that police withhold peculiar facts in a case that only the killer would know. So when they catch the killer, if and when he or she gives a statement, you match it up to what has been withheld from the public to see if it's really the killer or if it's just a nut making a false confession.

However, what we need is to identify this child, this little boy, who's just like put in a suitcase and like I said, left like an old pair of pajamas, out in a suitcase, out in the woods. I don't see how this is really helping them to withhold that evidence. Well, yeah, I'm on the fence with it. And I think the reason that they're doing it is they don't want an influx of false leads taking the investigators off the track. But if the public doesn't know what kind of clothes this child was wearing, it makes it difficult for the public to help. So it's kind of a catch-22, Nancy.

A little boy just five years old, left dead in a suitcase out in the middle of the woods, halfway between Indianapolis and Louisville, found by a mushroom hunter that seemingly, and I'll go out on a limb, is not involved. He's actually a good Samaritan that calls in the discovery. When I heard his voice describing what he found, I thought immediately he was not involved. So what do we know? Take a listen now to Tom Lally, WHAS 11. A boy found dead in southern Indiana remains nameless. His story and the suitcase he was found in have gained national attention. Hundreds of tips submitted and still no answers. Except for one. We now know how the boy died. At this time, there's no evidence that leads investigators to believe that he was alive when he went into the suitcase.

Sergeant Kerry Hull says investigators got the autopsy and toxicology reports on May 20th. Seven days later, they share this unnamed boy died from an electrolyte imbalance. Most likely due to gastroenteritis, which in common layman's term would be vomiting and diarrhea, and that resulted in dehydration. Fatal dehydration. And he says the toxicology report found nothing significant. Straight out to you, Dr. Michelle Dupree. Translate, please. Anantigastroenteritis is a viral infection, mostly commonly called stomach flu. And the problem with this is that it does cause vomiting and diarrhea.

And the problem with that is that you use up electrolytes. You get rid of those. And electrolytes are very narrowly balanced in our system. They control things like even our heart rate, our blood pressure. So when those are depleted from nausea and vomiting and diarrhea, then we may go into a cardiac arrhythmia. We may become dehydrated, and then that causes that cardiac arrhythmia. Okay, let's follow this through. Catherine Mars joining me, Special Victims Liaison for the State Attorney's Office there in Charles County.

Catherine, again, thank you for being with us. So let's go with what we know. The COD is massive vomiting and diarrhea gastroenteritis what does that tell you about who left this boy his body folded up in a suitcase it says welcome to the fabulous las vegas on the front of it well it tells me that i need to start looking at neglect of the child because if the child was this ill, that the child died from the electrolyte deficiency or dehydration, that means he wasn't getting proper care while he was sick,

or he wasn't taken to a doctor, he wasn't being given fluids by his caregivers. So that tells me that there is an outside component to his death that I need to look at as well. It also tells me, Catherine Marsh, that this may have been someone that was afraid that the boy died on their watch and that they would go to jail. Now, who would that be? A mom or dad that had had trouble with defects, Department of Family and Children Services before, somebody that may have had a criminal history, or just a neglectful parent that feels they'd be the one that got in trouble. Of course they would be.

They let this boy die, a five-year-old little boy. He couldn't have been any taller than what, Jackie, three feet or so? Five years old? Now, now my question Max Lewis the Fox 59 have police drawn and released a composite sketch of the boy no Nancy they haven't that's another thing that people have been asking about you know at least give us something more because clearly what they've released so far is not working. It's not helped identify this boy. And they're still basically went back at the drawing board.

And so that's a lot of what a lot of people are asking, but they haven't done it. They, again, are citing compromising the investigation. I'll leave that to the experts to decide whether or not that is true or not. But we'll see. OK, that's total BS. Look, I know, Max Lewis, it's not your message. You're just the messenger. But step one is identifying the boy.

We need a composite sketch. Take a listen to our cut. Well, this is Tom Lally, WHAS. As this search continues, we know police are able to release a composite or photo of the boy and have chosen not to. The description of this boy could apply to so many people. Why not release a rendering or what kind of clothes the child was wearing? Right, and that's been discussed. But again, the main thing is if somebody knows of a child who fits this description that's missing, they need to give the call. Having a picture shouldn't make somebody all of a sudden recall, oh, that child.

If they know a child who's missing. But what if they wouldn't know the child is missing, but they could recognize the child? Well, again and again, there's many different reasons. But sometimes, you know, diagrams, drawings, sometimes those renderings can lead to misconceptions as well. So it can open up a Pandora's box of people saying, well, I thought it was this child when possibly not. So at this time, they feel it's in the best interest of the case not to do that. To Karen L. Smith, joining me, forensics expert, joining us out of LA, this isn't exactly right. A composite, as we are calling it, is typically made when you can't get a full facial. Here, like a photograph,

you make it based on an or several eyewitnesses. Here we have the boy. His body is still intact. It's not like a drawing is going to be that far off from the child. In fact, they may have been able to actually take a picture of the child and enhance it to make it look as if it were in life. I don't get how they're saying, oh, a composite would open up a Pandora's box of false leads. Hey, they need something. Yeah, I don't understand that at all. A composite sketch or composite drawing can lead to people, you know, yes, you may not say, yes, I know this missing boy, but you may say, you know, I saw this little boy with so and so, it looks familiar to me.

None of that makes sense. And you know, the clothing, I said I was on the fence, the composite drawing, I don't understand that at sense. You know, the clothing, I said I was on the fence. The composite drawing, I don't understand that at all. Okay, guys, take a listen now to our friend Katrina Nickel at WDRB. Just off a rural road in Washington County, one answer can be added to a long list of questions that remain. The cause of death of the young male is electrolyte imbalance. According to ISP, the autopsy results say vomiting and diarrhea likely resulted in severe dehydration. It's a very odd, tragic case. Medical director for Norton Children's Hospital, Mark McDonald, explains that a death related to electrolyte imbalance leads to organs slowly shutting down. You don't really know what's going on. You don't, you're delirious and you eventually become unconscious.

And to die from something like severe dehydration is uncommon for a young child who police believe is a five-year-old boy and can take days. The only circumstance I would think that a younger child could become so dehydrated they pass away would be if they were really by themselves. You know, if they were left alone and didn't have the means to help themselves or have someone around to help them. That is exactly what you were saying, Catherine Marsh. Catherine, Special Victims Liaison. This child was horribly neglected, and you just heard the cop hit the nail on the head. The child was alone and died as one organ

after the next shut down. That's correct, and it's the heartbreaking thing, especially when you heard him say this kind of death would have taken days. So we had a child who suffered for days. And then after that, suffering was folded up, put in a suitcase, and disposed on the side of the road. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Dr. Michelle Dupree joining me. What would this child have gone through as each organ shut down? Massive diarrhea, so weak you probably couldn't even get up and go to the bathroom vomiting all alone nancy he would have obviously been very tired probably had a fever very sore

muscles abdominal pain um again the diarrhea dehydration bloody stools he would have basically become unconscious and then succumb to death guys i'm looking at this suitcase and if you look at it very carefully, it's abundantly clear this is not something that was just bought for this purpose. I've been examining it very closely. The wheels is old and worn out. But isn't it true, Karen Smith, forensics expert, that the brand of suitcase can be identified and it can be figured out where it was sold? Isn't that true? Yes, it is. Absolutely. You can find out the manufacturers and you can find out the stores where it is sold.

Now, that's kind of like finding a needle in a haystack, but it is a lead that needs to be followed. And Nancy, I'd just like to say this. Finding the identity of this boy is paramount. taking the victim's DNA from his autopsy and putting it into public genealogical and ancestral DNA databases to see if any distant relatives have submitted their DNA to those public records, try to find a partial match and work back from there. So boy's DNA is not going to be in CODIS, the combined DNA index system that's used for criminal cases, but there may be a lead in those ancestral databases. It'll take time, but it's worth a shot. We have to find out his identity.

It's called genetic genealogy. And while you, people will often say, well, don't you have a fingerprint or don't you have DNA from the victim? Well, yes, that's not that hard to get. But then the question is, who are you going to match it to? Example, say in a rape case, there's semen. You can get the DNA from the semen, but you've got to figure out whose is it. And that is where databases, DNA databases, come into play.

If the perp has a criminal history and has given his or her DNA or their fingerprints, then you can match up. Otherwise, there are millions and millions of people that could be the perp. You have to have something to match it to. So in this case, you would take the child's DNA and do an ancestral DNA match, genetic genealogy. And sometimes you have to go way back, say the 1800s, and you get a hit to somebody's great, great, great, great, great grandfather. Then you follow it down, follow it down, all the way down to the here and now, the present. Who are the relatives here and now? Who were in the

area? Who would have had a child this age? That's how you do it. Now there's the other factor. What if this child was in foster care and was not with his genetic parents? Well, guess what? You can still find the parents and then find who had the child in foster care. I want to go back to Dr. Alan Blotke, clinical forensic psychologist joining us out of Birmingham. Dr. Blotke, again, thank you for being with us. I want to analyze not only who would put a child, like top mom Casey Anthony did put her child in a plastic bag and throw it in the woods,

but who similarly would put their child's dead body in this suitcase and leave it in the woods, and who would stand by and let their child vomit and have diarrhea to the point the child dies as the organs shut down, that child in intense pain. You know, a profoundly neglectful parent, obviously. And why they're neglectful, there can be many reasons. Substance abuse, mental illness, etc., etc. But the profoundness is so striking here. And then again, like I said earlier, they put the boy in a suitcase and put it like trash.

The mindset of whoever did this is cold and calculated and cruel. A five-year-old little boy, think of your child at that young age. Take a listen to our friend Katrina Nickel at WDRB. ISP does believe the boy was already dead when put in the suitcase and previously said the boy was likely found within about a week from dying. He appeared to be at least somewhat cared for. So that's, again, not what you expect. Autopsy results also revealed the boy was an average height and weight for a five-year-old, and a toxicology report came back negative.

As far as just who this boy is, where he's from, who left him in the suitcase, it's all a mystery. Of the documented children that are missing on the missing children's list across the country, at this point there's no match on any child that's listed as missing. ISP will not release a rendering or drawing of the boy at this time. Sometimes those renderings can lead to misconceptions as well. They feel it's in the best interest of the case not to do that. Police said detectives on the case are utilizing any information they have with all available technology. You know, we've had many cases. Let me throw this out to Catherine Marsh. Many cases where we have tried to identify a child. Sometimes these cases go cold and it's decades later that the child is identified and there's no way to bring the killer

to justice. What do you advise, Catherine, so this case doesn't go cold? I think I'd start with what so many people on this panel have said. I think it's imperative to get the composite sketch or the picture of this young victim out there. I think we need to know what he looks like because then we can start moving forward with identifying him and building the blocks of the last moments of his life or the last time somebody saw him. What we know is in six weeks, nobody's reported a child missing to the police that fit his description. So it's not going to come from the caregivers.

It needs to come from people in the community. We need to get what he looks like out. You know, that's really interesting. Remember Karen Smith, the House of Horrors in California, community. We need to get what he looks like out. You know, that's really interesting. Remember Karen Smith, the House of Horrors in California, the Turpin parents who mistreated their children so horribly. They had many children. Not one neighbor reported never seeing the children. Nobody said a thing. So I doubt very seriously that neighbors or anybody in the community is going to come forward. What's our best chance? At this point, I have two suggestions.

One would be to consider using what's called wet vacuum technology, like an MVAC. These can extract really minute samples of DNA that might not be recoverable by standard methods like swabbing or taping. These wet vacuums spray a buffer onto the substrate and then pull everything out into a bottle. This can find other sources of DNA that are not the victims. So that may be a lead. Another one, and this is a little bit of a wide net, but there may be spores or pollen or other fauna present on his clothes or in that suitcase that are foreign to the area where he was found. That can give investigators an area of focus.

So they might want to contact a forensic botanist to consult on microscopic analysis of that clothing to see if there's any unusual plant material from a specific state or region or even other country. Nancy, we don't know where this little boy is from. He may not be from the United States, which may be why the person who left him there didn't consult a doctor. I'm not giving an excuse. It's disgusting. I'm just going to go out on a limb and say he was from the U.S., someone that lived in or had visited Vegas,

someone that was familiar with this area and knew to dump the body there. I would also be interested in the clothing, where it came from, what store, what mall in this country, to give me an idea of where the perp lives, as well as did the boy have on shoes, because on those shoes would be a wealth of forensic evidence. Agreed. Tip line 812-248- 4374 or

toll free 800- 872-6743. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off. Goodbye friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.