Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - SEARCH WARRANT & CONTENTS OF Murder Suspect Brian Kohberger REVEALED

Episode Date: January 19, 2023

Newly-released documents outline what police were looking for in Bryan Kohberger's apartment and what was found. The search warrant affidavit was initially sealed but was unsealed by a Washington state judge.   According to court documents, investigators found a “collection of dark red” spotting on an item inside Kohberger’s Steptoe Village apartment, along with a pillow with a “reddish/brown stain” on it. Strands of hair, human as well as a possible animal strand, were found. A glove, computer and mattress covers were also removed. What wasn't found... was a knife, the murder weapon.   Joining Nancy Grace today: Dale Carson - High Profile Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent, Former Police Officer (Miami-Dade County), Author: "Arrest-Proof Yourself, DaleCarsonLaw.com  Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills, CA), DrBethanyMarshall.com, New Netflix show: 'Bling Empire' (Beverly Hills), @DrBethanyLive  Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert, Founder: Cold Case Investigative Research Institute in Atlanta, GA, ColdCaseCrimes.org, @ColdCaseTips   Host: Zone 7 Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective, Host of YouTube channel - The Interview Room  Giovanni Masucci-Senior Digital Forensic Examiner - Over 35 years of combined professional experience in Political and Governmental Affairs, Physical & IT Security, Technology, Consulting, Investigations. North Carolina  Laura Ingle-Senior Correspondent, Fox News Channel, Twitter: @laurraingle, Instagram:@lauraingletv   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. We have the return. Every time a search warrant is executed in the U.S. anyway, there has to be what is called a return. On that return, you see what was actually seized during the search warrant. It's really like a laundry list of everything taken from the home. Now, as all you legal eagles know, the judge had sealed the search warrant, the probable cause supporting the search warrant, and the return for Brian Koberger's apartment there at Steptoe Village in Pullman, Washington.

Guys, what do we know about that return? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Take a listen to this. The highly anticipated warrants contain new details about what investigators were looking for and what they found. It also alleges that Koberger preplanned the ambush and had studied other murders and how to avoid detection as part of his preparations. An affidavit seeking the search warrant reads, quote, These murders appear to have been planned rather than a crime that happened in a moment of conflict, unquote.

Because the victim's home contained a significant amount of blood, spatter, and cast-off, investigators told the court they believed they would find some of that evidence transferred to Koberger's apartment. Once inside his apartment, police found what they were looking for. In the search warrant, officers say, based on the locations of the suspect vehicle and the suspect's phone immediately following the murders, it is probable that Koberger went home after the killings. And it is likely that he still had blood or other trace evidence on his person, including skin cells or hair from the victims or from Kaylee Gonsalves' dog. You are hearing our friends at Crime Online and CBS News. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now, but I can tell you this much. A few words in my mind

sum it all up. A stained pillow and a glove. Straight out to Laura Engel joining us, senior correspondent, Fox News Channel. Laura, tell me everything. As you mentioned, finally, we are getting this glimpse of what police were looking for. That's listed in this unsealed search warrant and what they found. The list of items that investigators seized in the search of suspect Brian Koberger's Washington State apartment include 15 items. It was on the last page of the search warrant that we got yesterday. This search warrant was about 49 pages long. And when you go through the list, you mentioned the glove, one nitrate type black glove, a Walmart receipt with one

Dickies tag. Remember the suspect described by DM, by Dylan, the surviving roommate said she saw somebody dressed head to toe in dark clothing. Dickies has dark clothing. We know that. Two Marshalls receipts. Dust container from a vacuum. Eight possible hairs. One of those hairs is a possible animal hair strand.

As we know, Kaylee Gonzalez, the victim, one of the victims. Murphy, her dog, was in the home at the time. A computer tower and a collection of dark red spots without testing. Now, this stuff hasn't been tested, but that's the other part that we're waiting for, right? Once they test those hair strands, once they test these dark red stains, both on this uncased pillow and the bottom of a mattress cover that was packaged and labeled, put in a chain of custody, everything labeled with evidence. But what we saw, right, all that video of the investigators coming out of Brian Koberger's apartment in Washington State, tubs and tubs, boxes and boxes and bags. So this list that has

those 15 items is most likely just a very small sample of what they recovered, but it is at least what they told us that they have to substantiate the search warrant. And then also within the search warrant was a list of what they were looking for. It's a long list, but the highlights include they were looking for blood, human tissue, knives, sheaths, sharp tools, daggers, swords, and anything that had sales receipts of those items, and specifically also any images, digital or on paper, of the victims and or the house at 1122 King Road, looking for dark clothing and looking for data compilations. And of course, you know, as we heard there in that report they also say in this

search warrant they alleged that Koeppberger pre-planned the ambush rather than this happening in a moment of conflict and also noted that he had studied other murders and how to avoid detection as part of his preparation. And remember a search warrant has to be very specific. You can't have a judge sign a warrant where the cop says, well, we just want to go fish around, see if we can find anything. That is why you're hearing Laura Engel clearly detail what cops say they're interested in, what they hope to find specifically a judge will never sign off on basically a fishing expedition where you have no idea what you're looking for. Guys, take a listen to our friend Dave Mack. including spatter and cast off, a bloodstained pattern resulting from blood drops released from an object due to its motion, making it likely that this evidence was transferred to Koberger's person, clothing or shoes. Based on the locations of the suspect vehicle and the 8458 phone immediately following the murders, it is probable that Koberger went home to his residence at 1630 Northeast Valley Road.

At that time, it is likely that he still had blood or other trace evidence on his purse and clothes or shoes, including skin cells or hair from the victims or from Gonzalva's dog. Sid here in the studio with me went along on our expedition where we went from the crime scene there on King Road on the circuitous route. And Cheryl McCollum, man, I wish she'd been in the SUV with us. There were times. It takes an hour and ten minutes to get home that way, or it took us that long. Dark, like where you and I grew up in the country,

no street lights pitch dark uh couldn't see the road a lot of the road was dirt or gravel so bumpy that it would make everybody in the suv shake up and down that's so bumpy he took that route for a reason what should have been a 10 minute drive that is why what's in that car is so significant. But I was thinking about, as Dave Mack read from the warrant, all the spatter at the scene, the cast-off, a bloodstain pattern resulting from blood drops released from an object due to its motion, in other words, the stabbing motion and the pullback of the knife for another stab,

making it likely this evidence was transferred to Coburger's person, clothing, or shoes. And that based on what they could tell from his cell phone, he then gets into that white Elantra and sets off for the long drive that Sidney and I made just the other night. Nancy, that cast off is not only going to land on his clothing, it's going to land on his face. It's going to land in his hair, on his arms. If his hands had the nitrate gloves, so to speak, but his wrist and his arms, it is going to be so easy for that to transfer when he, you know, pulls his clothing off, when he lays on the bed from exhaustion, whatever. All of those things are just this natural progression of how the Lockhart principle

we talk about all the time, from one scene to another, it is transferred. You can't go in a scene or leave a scene without taking something and leaving something. You are hearing Cheryl McCollum, forensic expert, founder of the Cold Case Research Institute. You can find her at coldcasecrimes.org. And very important, she is a forensics expert still working the force. Also with me, Giovanni Masucci, Senior Digital Forensic Examiner, 35 years of experience. Giovanni,

follow up with Cheryl. What do you think of what she said? She's absolutely right on that as far as trace evidence blood splatter. We're bringing something into the site and onto the site with you.

I totally concur on that. You know what's interesting to Giovanni and Cheryl? A lot of times, perps and crime scene techs, not you two, of course, miss blood high up on the wall or on the ceiling. Forget to look up. Now, what a tragedy that would have been, for instance, in the Ted Bundy case, because the ceiling blood spatter showed the exact trajectory of the blood from the bludgeoning of the girls. Exactly. They could even get a pretty good idea, if not the exact idea, of the amount of force Bundy used when he hit his victims. Based on the degree of blood and the way it spattered on the ceiling. What about that, Cheryl? Yeah, not only does it show the force, but for me, when I first walk into a scene like that, I can tell by the number

of castoffs that are on the wall and the ceiling, how many times that victim was stabbed. So if I've got four castoff patterns, the victim was stabbed at least five times because the first time the knife was clean. First time, then you pull the knife back, stab again, back, stab again, back, stab again. That's what she's talking about. So why use nitrate gloves as opposed to rubber gloves or plastic gloves? Nitrate waterproof, greaseproof, oilproof, and most importantly, chemically resistant. Now, with their tearproof, that's the most important thing. That's right.

Very good point. I'm hearing the voice of Dale Carson, high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville and former Fed with the FBI. Jump in. Go ahead. You know, talking about Magic Cheryl, I will just tell you, you can also determine the dominant hand of the striker often and the height of the striker. So when that first came out back in the 1980s, it was classified FBI material. We were told not to disclose that technique to anyone.

And now it's become pretty much mainstream And if you could quickly if there is a way to do it quickly Explain how you determine the height of the perp based on these markings Well, it's all coming from arm length You just draw a circle from one point to a swing to a swing with your shoulder and your arm extended And and you go back to a common point. That's the shoulder socket. And then you can guess at the height of the individual when you do those sort of things, where they're standing, where they're sitting.

There are all sorts of technical abilities that they have with that effort now that were just unheard of 40 years ago. Yeah, you're right. Guys, take a listen to more from Dave Mack. Court documents released by Whitman County show what evidence investigators were looking for when they searched Koberger's residence and his office. They were searching for any blood, bodily fluid, or skin cells. As for weapons, they searched for any knives, sheets, or other sharp tools.

They also searched for any digital or paper images of the victims or the King Road house. They looked for clothing, including but not limited to dark shirts, dark pants, masks, or shoes with a diamond patterned sole. Investigators also sought any digital evidence linking him to the victims, the King Road house, or any data compilations showing an interest in murder. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You know, it's so dense, Laura Engel. I mean, I've had to read this several times. And I remember in law school, Laura, this is reminding me of that. I came from being a Shakespearean literature major.

And I'd read a sentence in a U.S. Supreme Court decision that was almost a whole paragraph. And I would actually have to dissect the sentence. And when I look back at my criminal law book, which is huge and thick, there are watermarks on so many pages. Because I'd have to study so much, I would even study in the bathtub. Just reading constantly. And finally, one time I'm like, okay, this is going too far. I studied on the back row of church one night. I'm like, okay, this has got too far. I studied on the back row of church one night. I'm like, okay, this has got to stop.

Something is wrong about this. I don't know what it is. But my point is, did you just hear Dave Mack reading that? I mean, it's just so chock full of so much evidence. Listen, I mean, legal aspects. Investigators also sought digital evidence linking him to the victims, data

compilations showing an interest in murder, digital or paper images of the victims or the King Road House, clothing, including but not limited to dark shirts, dark pants, mask, or shoes with a diamond patterned sole to hopefully match back up to the diamond pattern sole mark in the home.

Every sentence here is just an explosion of information, Laura Engel. That's right. And when you go through that list of what they were looking for, you mentioned the data compilations and the plan. They were looking for any data compilations of the planning of murder, but also specifically murder, violent assault, stabbing, and or cutting of people. And they were looking for an example of ledgers, papers, lists, books, notes, letters, calendars, address books, contact lists, diaries, tapes, photographs, videos, emails, text messages. They were looking for cell phones. That's a lot. Passwords, phrases, codes, patterns, fingerprints, user names to operate any of those devices. They wanted the devices.

They wanted to see if he had written down any of the passwords so they could get into those electronics. And you're right. It is very dense. They were very specific. And when you think about how a search warrant is executed, I was speaking to former NYPD officers yesterday. I said, tell me how you go in. He said, well, we get the warrant. We have the list. Then you're methodical going room by room. You've got the person who's actually looking for the items on the list. Then you've got the other police officer next to you recording how it's going to happen. They're watching it. They're recording it.

They are writing their own log of how they're obtaining this evidence and information. We've talked about the chain of command, how they're sealing it up, how they're obtaining this evidence and information. We've talked about the chain of command, how they're sealing it up, how they put their initials on it. There is a lot more that we are going to learn. This is the search warrant of his apartment. We've learned they did not find much, or if anything, in his office. We've got to get to the search warrant of the car. That will hopefully be revealed soon. But this list of the apartment, you're right. It is very dense.

It tells us how meticulous they were. And you look at the time stamp on page one, filed January 3rd. Remember what we were doing? Yes. The arrest had just happened. They had quickly put together this list of exactly what they wanted to find in this apartment, and they found a good amount. What I want to know is, is he going to come back? Did he leave?

Is the house abandoned, the apartment abandoned, which is another indicia of guilt because of the flight issue? And is he coming back? I mean, you can look. Is there food in the refrigerator? All those kinds of things will give you an idea of whether he intended to come back. Dale Carson speaking. Dale Carson, you know, as I always say, when you don't know a horse, look at his track record. He went straight back to school as if nothing had changed. He participated in classes.

He texted his neighbor that I talked to. Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family. Right. I said nothing was wrong, so I would venture to extrapolate. He was coming back as if nothing had happened. Also with us, Chris McDonough, director of the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective, worked over 300 homicides, host of The Interview Room on YouTube. Chris, one thing I always like to do during searches or when I would visit a crime scene is just sit down. There's nothing to sit on. Just stand there quietly and think, if I wanted to hide something in this room, where would I hide it? And just sit there while everybody else is going cray on everything and taking pictures and measurements and finding stuff.

To just sit and think. Think calmly about everything you might miss. What about it, Chris? Homicide 101, Nancy, where you take in each wall independently. And if we look at this return here, yesterday we talked about there's going to be a huge push for digital footprint. We're starting to see that today. But what we're missing here is there are six locations where these individual hairs were discovered. In one location, there were eight of them.

And then in the others, there was an animal hair, another possible hair, item eight, item nine, item 10, item 11. These are six locations where these hairs were discovered and they were transferred from something or somebody, either the crime scene, as Cheryl has talked about, the suspect or the victims. But somebody caught each of these hairs independently the other thing that we see is very interesting here are the receipts uh items number two and three where this guy had gone out it appears and purchased items pre-planning something's going on here with that and we see a new discovery i think it's on page 18 where he was caught on video at a chef's store at least passing a chef's store near the coffee area where after the homicides he drove out there so those minutiae details are starting to flow just as you've predicted

and that we've talked about here on your show. Sidney, do you remember when we were out in Idaho and a woman came up to us and she was talking about his route back home and that he would have crossed over, it the red bridge red wolf bridge yeah yeah that was it red wolf bridge that's it and she was talking about how he had passed a chef store and a coffee shop that was the grocery store trip exact and i'm just thinking back about that chef's store and what type of cutlery and knives were sold there. Hey, Chris McDonough, don't worry, Bethany, I'm coming right to you. Chris McDonough, speaking of a black glove, Cindy just reminded me of this.

A black glove, I think, that was found. Yes, ma'am. What about the one black glove that you found, that you spotted and pointed it out to a cop at the crime scene? It's certainly going to be interesting. I couldn't tell what specific makeup the glove was because it had snow and looked like some leaves over it. You could definitely see the fingertips, but I could not tell if it was consistent with the type of materials that they have listed in this return search warrant affidavit. So it's going to be interesting.

Yeah. Dr. Bethany Marshall with us, high profile psychoanalyst joining us out of L.A. She's at DrBethanymarshall.com, and she is the star of a hit series on Netflix, Bling Empire. Dr. Bethany, I want you to take a listen to our friends at KTVB, and I want to talk to you about the blood on Koberger's pillow. Listen. Investigators searched his apartment on December 30th, the same day he was arrested at his parents' home in Pennsylvania. According to that search warrant, investigators found and confiscated a number of things,

including a synthetic rubber black glove, several possible hair strands, both human and dog, two cuttings from an uncased pillow with a reddish-brown stain, as well as two mattress covers packaged separately with multiple stains. Police also searched Koberger's teaching office at Washington State University, but the records show they did not take anything. In the search warrant, there was a mention of how items such as blood or hair could be transferred from the crime scene to

Koberger and end up back in his car or at his apartment. Investigators located a possible animal hair strand. Now remember, Kaylee Gonzalva's dog was at the home the night of the murders. They also found three possible hairs and a possible hair strand. They collected what could be blood as there was a reddish brown stain on an uncased pillow, as well as multiple stains on a top and bottom mattress cover. Dr. Bethany, I've been thinking a lot about what we believe to be a blood stain on his pillow, Koberger's pillow, on his bed. Do you remember just a day or two ago, photos came out of Koberger in court and he had

cuts all along his right jaw. And we were told it was from shaving. So, if you want to believe the blood, the potential blood on his pillowcase

was from shaving, that would mean he had to shave before he went to bed, which really doesn't make any sense, does it? That makes no sense at all, Nancy. You know, this was a very bloody crime scene. And obviously, the victim's supposed to have fought back. Even though it was a surprise attack, it was a crime of opportunity. He attacked them in their sleep.

You know, instinctually, they were reactive. And it could be that even in the frenzy, he cut himself with his own knife. A little scary to speak up in front of this panel of crime scene investigators. But I have a different way of looking at this as a mental health expert. And that is through the lens of Koberger's fantasy life. We're looking at a thin slice of history here, the night of the crime, the months preceding, the week or two after the crime. But I know that serial killers in the making have prolific fantasy lives. They eat, sleep, breathe, homicide. That's all they think about. So his apartment is likely going to be organized around his fantasy life, just like a kid who's obsessed with Dungeons and Dragons is going to have that kind of equipment all over their room. Or an alcoholic is going to have, let's see, tequila bottles all over the apartment. What does a serial killer do in the making?

If indeed my theory is correct that he was a serial killer in the making, he botched his first crime, we know that the reason they strike and then they go underground for months at a time before they strike again is they can feed off of their own fantasy life. And that means that that digital imprint, what he was looking at online, what he was reading, maybe even a pattern of semen around the household as he's looking at different images and using it to fuel sadistic sexual fantasies, that that is a dark underground layer that I don't know if crime scene investigators look at, but I'm sure that leaves an imprint, too.

I'm just thinking about what you said, Dr. Bethany. And I remember when I was out doing Dancing with the Stars, I managed to wiggle into a couple of celebrities' homes. They had trophies everywhere, pictures of themselves and fancy artwork, which was beautiful, and weird sculptures that I didn't know what they were. Then at our home, everything is covered in pictures of the twins and our family and, you know, tacky little tchotchke from wherever we've visited, you know. That's right. Nancy, in the Bundy case, you know, he drew, hand drew,

pictures of himself in various costumes with broken arms or arms in a sling. And he was very good at that. And those were drawn prior to the attacks. And so what Dr. Bethany is saying is entirely accurate. Those individuals live in a world that most of us cannot understand because they are driven by a powerful biologic urge. So you add that to your fantasy

and you've got somebody who's a real animal. And you know, Cheryl McCollum with me. Oh, I was just coming to you. Oh, and Laura, I want to circle back with you about the cutlery. Don't let me forget Laura Engel. You're the ringmaster today. Cheryl McCollum, remember in the district attorney's office what my office looked like on the inside? Yes. There were two very old, what were they, Monet prints, and then everything else I remember there was a sawed-off shotgun from a crime. It was like that big. There was a huge blow-up that I had used for a jury.

Don't touch the Alram. This is a Roby from my dyslexic bank robber, who then when he did his writing sample, he also did the writing sample with the letters reversed so that did not take a writing a handwriting expert to win that jury trial so i was lucky about his handwriting and just all sorts of weird bizarre memorabilia things that had come from cases years back that had already gone up and affirmed on appeal. Do you remember that?

I was thinking about what Bethany said, and I find that really insightful. Right, and it's something we talked about weeks ago when we used the analogy of somebody planning a wedding. It's all they can think about. All they can look at are dresses and cakes and flowers and venues. They can't help themselves, and they can look at are dresses and cakes and flowers and venues. They can't help themselves and they can't hide it. And that's why I thought he would have maps on the wall and photographs. He sure did. He would have this stuff lay out because this is what he wants.

I've said multiple times, it's porn to him. He can't get enough of it. Whether it's Dr. Ramsey's class, whether it's something online he's researching, whether it's something he's putting together at home and he's putting on the clothes and practicing. I'm telling you, he has not hidden this in any way possible. And I want to say again, remember that Dr. Ramsey did not make him. He went because of what he already was. Hey, Cheryl, I just want to remind you. Do you remember where that sawed off shotgun

came from that I had in my office? A guy convicted on two rapes goes to the penitentiary, on a rape, does seven years. He gets out and what does he do? He gets a sawed off shotgun. As soon as he leaves the jail, flags

down a lady like he needs help with a car and he kidnaps her and rapes her day one the day he got out of jail within hours yes within hours hey nancy yes jump in i'm sorry laura angle please blame it on bethany marshall again go ahead mess okay btk killer didn't he have like a red latex outfit self himself sitting on a chair, all bound up? He had all these pictures of himself in various BDSM styles of dress, and he would look at these pictures. So it wasn't just the blood, the crime, it was all these pictures he left behind, and including on the disc that he sent to the pastor of the church. There's some credible research that pedophiles, when they're discharged,

when they're released from jail, are more primed to offend because they've been living in their fantasy world while they're in prison. And it's sort of a sexualized fantasy world. So it actually increases their propensity to go out and look at victims. I've got to tell you something, Dr. Bethany. I have no idea what's happening while you're talking. Cheryl, this is a yes-no. Do you remember the beautiful court reporter that was murdered in the courthouse shootings?

Of course, Julie. Julie. And then my other favorite court reporter, Ms. Donna Keeble. I was looking at Sidney here in the studio whenever Dr. Bethany Marshall starts talking and other times. And I'll never forget how Donna Keeble and Julie, as evidence would come out during testimony, they would make all sorts of faces. And the jury would be looking at them, too. And the defendant would get up and say some BS on the stand, then roll their eyes. And the jury would be looking right at them.

And Bethany Marshall said, BTK in his red latex suit, I wish you could have seen, I thought her head was going to just fly off. But it reminded me of my court reports. wars crime stories with nancy grace okay laura engel don't anybody say a word while engel is talking hit me laura two things Well, we had our guest mention the U.S. Chef store that was part of the route, was along the route on the way home. So obviously he didn't go there that day if he has ever been to the store. But when you go to that website, the U.S. Chef store that's located in Clarkson, Washington, next to that Kate's Cup of Jill place, You look at the things that you can buy there. There are many fixed blade knives that you can buy.

We've been talking about the K-Bar. We've been talking about military hunting stores. But when you go to that chef's store website, you do see that there are the dynamic chef's knife, 10 inches long, forged eight inch knife. These are huge knives. But would they have a hilt? Look at the photos for me, Laura Engel, because there's something about the bodies.

Giovanni Masucci, senior forensic examiner, 35 years in the business. They came out at the get go and said, and I'm wondering if this is because of the marks left on the bodies, that they believe the victims were murdered with a military-style type knife fixed blade, which would suggest it had a hilt. And I don't recall any of our kitchen knives having a hilt, but I am not a knife expert. I can't claim that. What about it, Giovanni?

Because of the way that type of blade is made, it leaves a type of indentation on the body. So they're looking at that as well, and what can come from the blood splatters on it. But the way that the handle is made, the way that the blade is forged, gives it some kind of indication on the markings. And so that's how they're potentially able to determine between whether it be just a kitchen knife or a heavy grade knife or military blade or whether it was not fixed, if it wasn't a lock blade or military grade. And you know, Laura Engel, I don't put a lot of store in. I've compared it to forensic dentistry because flesh,

you know, when you're analyzing bite marks in human flesh, flesh moves, so you're analyzing bite marks in human flesh, flesh moves. So you can't really get, it's like trying to take a teeth mold for the orthodontist in Jell-O. You're not going to get a good print. Right. So I don't know that there really was a hilt. You know, we just, we don't know, right? Because the item has not been discovered.

But when you look at, you know, we don't know if he went to this. I'm sure that investigators have gone into the U.S. Chef's store. Oh, yeah. And we'll find out about that later. When you look at a chef's knife overview, you see that it has a blade and an edge and a heel and what's called a bolster.

It's all just the anatomy of a chef's knife. Is it possible? Sure. Another thing I want to bring to your attention is, I don't have this, I haven't talked to this person, but the Daily Mail is reporting that one of, a girl that he went to school with, Brian Koberger in sixth grade, the FBI has reportedly interviewed this lady, Kim Keneally, and she was his middle school crush. And FBI reportedly has interviewed her because he developed a crush and began romantically pursuing her. And she rebuffed him.

And a lot of, we've heard that a lot of former classmates have been interviewed. These classmates are describing Koberger as a chubby, awkward misfit. But what's important to note here is one of the former students, a third former classmate noted in this article says, it's interesting to me that the girls, and he was made fun of. Everybody here says that the popular girls the cheerleader literally tortured him girls started making fun of him in middle school and then when he seemed to turn his life around in high school and he started boxing and lost weight he was a totally different person but they described him as someone with a short fuse constantly trying to change his style and personality and then this third former classmate says this, it's interesting to me that the girls he's accused of killing

were nice looking and seemingly popular, much like the ones that made fun of him throughout his childhood. Okay, I know right where to go with that. That's Dr. Bethany Marshall. Jump in, Bethany. Well, what comes to mind is the, as I talked about so many times, stalkers, that they take like little bits and pieces of a connection. Maybe they just see an image of somebody or a high schooler walking down the hallway, and they fantasize an entire relationship with that person may not even know that he existed, then they get stuck in these profound feelings of rejection, which then give away a crush on this teacher, Nancy. Isn't it kind of creepy

that everyone knew about it? I mean, most high school and middle-aged boys have crushes here and there, but nobody knows about it. So it tells me how obsessional this guy was. And you know, the idea that girls, I read in one report, actually threw things at him, that that's how much they didn't like him, means that his creepy, obsessional, stalkerish nature, it was kind of just exuding out of every pore. This wasn't a guy that was sort of hiding in plain sight, look normal, and oh, he just snapped and nobody knew about it. There were clues all the way leading up here. So we're going to know so much more as this trial gets underway.

Dale Carson, final thought? Well, I think they've done a really good job of doing that search warrant. They'll find much more evidence than was listed on that return. Oh, yeah. And we're going to learn that that hair is connected with something connected with a crime scene. And to you, Giovanni Masucci,

Senior Digital Forensic Examiner, what do you make of the computers and digital data they took from the apartment? I was excited to see that. They wrote the search warrant excellent. I used to review search warrants for law enforcement and help them with the digital data to make sure they

had it right so they weren't going back to the judge two and three times, which a judge does not like. But fire stick, I was excited to see that because that can be jailbroken. And with a jailbroken fire stick, you can access anything you want on the internet, including social media.

So there's potential evidence that they can pull from that. Also, the computer tower, oh my gosh. From, you know, everybody was talking about, you'd expect to see it at his apartment, you know, pictures and so on. Well, guess what? You can have digital pictures on there. You can have, you know, all this data

of him collecting potential evidence on the floor, you know, because, I mean, it so seemed that was pre-planned, obviously. And so, in my opinion. And so, you know, the data that could have been collected on there. Oh, my gosh. Unbelievable amounts of evidence, potential evidence they can find from that computer tower and both the fire stick. You know, another thing I was just thinking about regarding photos and digital photos and what would be in the home, the neighbor told me when he glanced into Kohlberger's apartment, it was very, very sparse. Okay, Chris McDonough, joining us from the Cold Case Foundation. Final thought. I believe, Nancy, at this point, it's going to continue to emerge that this guy had many weird encounters with women over time.

And probably many underlying fetishes will produce themselves. And that I still am going with the idea that he believed he was the deliverer of justice. And that as these women come forward and the digital evidence starts to present his personality a little bit deeper, it's not going to surprise me one iota that he had a contact point within that digital footprint with these four victims, at least one of them in that home. And that drove him to that home. Cheryl McCollum. I'm going to talk about the totality of this evidence. So when you look at the house where the crimes occurred, his apartment, his car, his digital footprint,

his debit card where he made purchases and payments, the cell phone, not just pings and calls and texts, but people keep notes on their phone and photographs. But I'm going to go to the animal hair. This suspected alleged killer did not have a pet. If that comes back to be Murphy, Kaylee's dog, that is a money tree. And they're going to be able to take the DNA from that hair and match it straight to that dog. And I'll tell you two reasons. Not only is the DNA from the actual hair, but dogs groom themselves by licking.

That means that hair's got double the DNA on it. That's going to be a money tree. It's, you know, when we hear Laura Engel reporting the facts and our awesome experts analyzing them, picking them apart, sometimes some people can forget that we're talking

about Kelly, Madison, Zanna, and Ethan. I'm not forgetting. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.