Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - SERIAL KILLER DOCTOR? Dr. William Husel prescribes lethal doses of fentanyl, killing over 25 patients. Are there more?

Episode Date: February 3, 2020

Dr. William Husel is facing 25 murder charges for allegedly using fentanyl to kill critically-ill patients. He adamantly claims innocence and files a civil lawsuit against his employers. Investigators, however, say that they've established escalation and intent after Williams continuously administers increased levels of the drug to patients.Joining Nancy Grace to discuss: Mark Tate: Savannah, Ga., Attorney, represents Chatham County, South Carolina; suing opioid manufacturers       Dr. William Morrone: Chief Medical Examiner of Bay County Michigan, Chief Medical Officer for Recovery Pathways, created NEW portable treatment center   Bruce Johnson: Owner of ISP Investigations & Master Sgt. Region One Crime Scene Commander, Chicago Metro Area (Ret)   Dr. Caryn Stark: NYC Psychologist Haley Nelson: Investigative reporter at ABC 6 / FOX 28, Columbus, Ohio Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. A doctor allegedly kills 25 patients by deliberately prescribing lethal doses of opioids. It's just too much for me to take in. I've never in all my years of me going back and forth to doctors and taking the twins and my mom and my dad, seen a nurse challenge the doctor's decision. Wow, what about the 25 dead people? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Dr. William Hussle is accused in three separate lawsuits of ordering lethal doses of fentanyl for 27 patients who were in intensive care or near death. Hussle and his attorneys have declined to comment.

And no one answered the door at Hussle's home after we stopped by for a second time this week. The hospital fired him and has placed 20 caregivers, including nurses and pharmacists, on leave. Supporters of the nurses have said some were following doctor's orders, but that's not good enough, according to Lisa Emmerich with with the state challenge a doctor's order if they think it's wrong well we use the word clarify uh when if in wrong i don't know what wrong means the nurse is required to give critical analysis to the order okay so now are we actually blaming the nurse wow talk about using a nurse as a scapegoat forget about that what about the 25 dead people i'm nancy grace this is crime stories thank you for being with us a medical doctor is responsible for 25 deaths all-star panel with me right now savannah lawyer markate. You can find him at TateLawGroup.com. Bruce Johnson, owner ISP Investigations.

Master Sergeant, Region 1 Crime Scene Commander, Chicago Metro. That's not a walk in the park. New York psychologist joining me from Manhattan, Karen Stark. Special guest, Haley Nelson from ABC6, Fox 28, Columbus. But to you, renowned chief medical examiner, Dr. William Maroney, Bay County, Michigan, who actually created a new portable treatment center. It's like a giant RV he created to travel to combat fentanyl and opioid overdose. How can, you know, after the first patient kills over dead, why do there have to be 24 more, Dr. Maroney?

Don't you people take the Hippocratic Oath? We do, and some of us take it very serious. The problem is there's a failure in the system that did not identify this physician with a rogue attitude the failure in the system is he should have been checked by nurses and pharmacists wait wait wait dr maroney dr maroney yeah you know what you know how i feel about you and your whole family i usually respect every single thing you say but i got 25 dead bodies 25 funerals with families standing around a coffin being lowered into the dirt. And did you actually just say there was a failure in the system? Did you

actually describe this doctor as a rogue? That is a murderer, not a rogue. He's a murderer because they redefined the amount of fentanyl, anything over 50 milligrams up to like 2,000. And this should have been checked by the medical examiner's office. You have 50, if you have 25 deaths, you have 25 death certificates. And I'll bet that when these people died in Columbus originally, they were all marked as natural. And in order to come back and prosecute this doctor, those death certificates have to absolutely have been gone back and changed to homicide. Okay, you know what? Dr. Maroney, I know you're the MD and I'm just a JD, but when 25 people die of opioid overdose, how can an overdose be natural cause of death? Because they list the disease. To prosecute him, they have to go back and change these death certificates to homicide.

Well, why would anybody even say it was a natural death? You'd have an overdose. A heart attack or a stroke, COPD. That was what they said originally. And all this fentanyl was hidden. It was hidden. Well, I'm sorry, but doesn't fentanyl show up in your blood workups at the medical? You know what? I need Haley Nelson with me, ABC 6, Fox 28, Columbus.

But Haley, take a listen to this. Our friends at NBC4, this is Dan Perlman. Even three weeks in, they were treating him with kid gloves. Listen. It was January 14th. The accusations came to light. Mount Carmel telling us Dr. Hussle ordered excessive doses of pain medicine for at least 27 patients, a number later adjusted to at least 34 patients, many of whom the hospital says died as a result. Mount Carmel is investigating, law enforcement

is investigating, but still not a word publicly from the doctor at the center of this scandal. We've stopped by his Dublin home several times, including today. No one answers the door, so I turned to David Schroyer, an attorney. Where is Dr. Hussle? Do you know? Well, I don't know. Yeah, okay, nobody knows, but we know where all his patients are. Dead. That was our friend at NBC4 earlier, WBNS 10 TV Columbus, been in her barrel. You know, to Haley Nelson, thank you for taking time to be with us. 34 patients? I thought there were just the 25 dead. Where did the 34 number figure come from, Haley? So the hospital started identifying patients in 2019, and they've also identified

up to five patients that they actually think could have survived. But we found out when the county prosecutor, when investigators were looking into this case, they decided to go forward with 25 of these murder charges based on the dosages, based on the information that they could find. You know, to Mark Tate, lawyer joining me out of Savannah, high-profile lawyer at TateLawGroup.com. Mark Tate, very often, I don't think I ever did this, but very often prosecutors, in order to make a successful case, will throw out charges they think are too weak to prove.

I prefer to give everything to a jury if they want to throw out some. That's their decision. Or maybe they held out some cases because they thought over time they could develop them into better prosecutions. So they went with 25. Have you ever seen prosecutors or even in civil law where you pare down your charges to make a more successful case at trial? Well, that's true, Nancy. I agree. However, I think it is if a prosecutor brings a case for which there is insufficient evidence to get a conviction and they have other cases against the same defendant these poor families who lost their loved ones. In a civil case, you want to be as specific as possible because juries civil cases, but I promise you the juries don't really know the difference, and they hold civil cases to a very nearly same standard. And so we on the civil side prefer to have a case that is extremely specific,

that is well put together, and can absolutely pierce the heart of your pleading. Well, you know, when you've got 34 alleged victims and only 25 are named in a criminal indictment, I wonder how that makes the other nine alleged victims feel. Take a listen to Franklin County Prosecutor Ron O'Connor. I was contacted by a lawyer representing Mount Carmel Hospital. At that time, he indicated a need to meet that same day, a need to disclose troubling information they had discovered regarding a doctor who later was identified as William Hussle,

who had been administering doses of fentanyl at a level that they internally believed were inappropriate and not for a legitimate medical purpose and which they also believed were designed to hasten the death of the patients that were being treated. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace on december 7th 2018 the homicide cold case received information indicating numerous patients had died while being treated by dr william scott usel during the course of his employment at Mount Carmel Health. Detectives began investigating the circumstances surrounding the death of at least 35 patients, and this has been the primary driver of the cold case homicide unit for the past seven months. Detectives reviewed approximately 30,000 pages of documents, consulted with medical professionals,

and conducted numerous interviews with witnesses and family members of the deceased. approximately 30,000 pages of documents, consulted with medical professionals, and conducted numerous interviews with witnesses and family members of the deceased. A significant challenge unique to this investigation is that detectives needed to familiarize themselves with medical records, terminologies, practices, and procedures in order to understand the difference between treatment and criminal activity. What? You were just hearing the Columbus, Ohio, Chief of Police.

That was Thomas Quinlan. He said 35 patient deaths. So it's not 24. It's not 34. It's 35. That's that we know of. I wonder where this guy practiced medicine before he was here. Whoa.

35 patient deaths. Maybe I don't understand how things work at a medical office. To Dr. William Maroney, chief medical examiner, Bay County, Michigan. And he even created a new portable RV opioid treatment center on his own. You can read his book, America Narcan, on Amazon. You know, Dr. William Maroney, not one nurse, not one physician assistant, nobody noticed. What about all those people? Shouldn't they be under scrutiny as well? There's a tremendous amount of hubris and arrogance that comes with this kind of activity from a physician.

And it intimidates other people. He comes in from Cleveland Clinic, which is probably one of the five top treatment centers in America. But his fundamental flaw in his thinking is in intensive care, everybody usually is trained in internal medicinel. Nobody uses those kind of doses. And then to make the decision that he was doing comfort care, it says comfort care. Comfort care is what's acknowledged for hospice patients when they have no alternative and they're suffering in pain and you give them a dose that the primary disease may be the cause of their demise. And that's comfort care.

Fentanyl was the cause of their demise. The inappropriate use, the inappropriate dosage and his training, you cannot excuse the hospital dosage, and his training. You cannot excuse the hospital for not checking out his background. And this is just such a failure, a major failure. And I love Columbus. I'm in Columbus every year. I go down there and teach at the medical college.

I eat at the restaurants. It's a wonderful place. But this person came in like the devil. You know what, Dr. Maroney, again, you know how much I respect you, and I'm happy to hear about your eating habits when you are in Columbus and the restaurants you go to, but this guy gave fentanyl in crazy amounts without any consent. The people probably didn't even know that they were getting it. I mean, the reality is the lawyer who represented top mom Casey Anthony said the charges are baffling. And what do you make of the claim that this was comfort care for dying patients, Dr. Maroney? None of these patients were acknowledged or represented as hospice patients.

He crossed interdisciplinary boundaries by using hospice rules for comfort care in normal ICU conditions. That's unforgivable. 35 patient deaths related to this doctor, this evil doctor, Dr. William Huesel, just 44 years old. But somehow in the indictment, only 25 deaths were represented. Listen to the chief of police, Thomas Quinlan. The investigators appreciate the cooperation of the family members and credit their assistance with leading to today's indictment. The investigation revealed probable cause linking 25 deaths

that were a direct result of an untherain therapeutic doses of drugs, including fentanyl, that Dr. William Scott Usel ordered to be administered in excess of medical standards. I want to also credit the cooperation received by the medical, pharmacy, and nursing boards that without their key guidance to investigators, the outcome would be extremely difficult. It is our sincere hope the families of these victims will find solace by the state of Ohio holding Dr. Usel accountable for his devious conduct. Haley Nelson joining us, ABC 6, Fox 28, Columbus investigative reporter.

Haley, I don't get it. One death, yes, I can understand the nurses did not realize what Hussle was doing. But after that, we have 34 more deaths related to his prescribing fentanyl until the people were dead. Haley, how come nobody, no nursing staff, no overseer, no anybody did anything, Haley? And that's the big question. Why didn't that happen? And since we've seen massive fallout at the hospital, Nancy, the CEO has stepped down. Pharmacists and nurses are facing possible discipline. They said there just really weren't any safeguards in place. There weren't reviews in place after the deaths of these people. But again, Haley, I get it after the first death and maybe that's when it came to light, but then there were two, then three, then 35. What were they doing

with their thumbs up their rear ends for 34 deaths? And that's been what the community has been reacting to in a lot of ways. Folks are upset, folks are angry, and they're asking the same questions you are. How could this happen? And the hospital haven't really had an answer for that. And they claim now that they've changed policies, but that exact question you're asking, that's their answer. Oh, please. Haley Nelson, you know that stinks to high heaven. Sure. Bruce Johnson, owner of ISP Investigations, no stranger to a crime scene. Bruce Johnson, 20 people were suspended.

Suspension? That's nothing. They can now go out and get another job or even go back to their old job. Suspended doesn't mean fired. And Tehei was getting fired. If they had anything to do with this, if they knew about it, they had a duty to act. They should be prosecuted too, Bruce Johnson. They can't hide behind their nurses uniforms. And the CEO can't hide behind a fancy suit. Oh no, I don't care if he stepped down. They all need to face criminal prosecution.

That's correct. And the good news is, in this case, there's going to be plenty of evidence to go through and track this. Obviously, the doctor prescribes it, but each nurse has that responsibility to question the prescription. So, I mean, you look through the cases. One that popped up was this 63- 63 year old woman that was just not feeling well. And he ends up prescribing a thousand micrograms. Why wouldn't the nurse question, you know, an easy case like that. And that's just a slam dunk, but all these nurses,

when the doctor prescribes the script, the nurse has to go and get it. So where they're going, each floor for the intensive care and the emergency has a pharma cell. And the pharma cell has control access, and sometimes it even has a password. So the question of who went in and out to get the prescribed medication isn't going to be an issue. They should have that. Plus, there possibly could be cameras in or near that cell. And from what I'm understanding, the nurses aren't denying it. So none of that is really going to be questioned.

They're admitting that they're getting this dosage. The question is, why are they agreeing to this, and why aren't they questioning him? And this goes all the way up to the top, like your one guest said, all the way to the CEO that resigned. There has to be some underlying issues. You're not kidding, Bruce Johnson. The fish stinks at the head, and the head would be the ceo crime stories with Nancy Grace. We currently don't have a motive other than what the facts would indicate that fentanyl in the amounts shown on the chart that exceed 500 micrograms. All the medical personnel we have talked to at Mount Carmel, as you might suspect, we've talked to some expert medical witnesses we

would propose to utilize at a subsequent trial. We have been advised that amounts in excess of 500 micrograms will cause any person who's not on a breathing ventilator to cease breathing and to cause their death. You just heard the Franklin County Prosecutor Ron O'Brien, Dr. William Maroney. You know, sometimes that gets you confused with lawyers because it's really hard for some people to answer in a yes-no. But you just heard the Prosecutor O'Brien state that anything over 500 micrograms would cause anyone not already on a ventilator to cease breathing is that true absolutely it's a hundred percent true kenny prescribed

over 2 000 micrograms prescribed over 2 000 and 500 makes you stop breathing. Karen Stark joining me, and New York psychologist joining us at karenstark.com. Karen, this isn't making the families feel any better. That you've got the CEO and all the nurses hiding behind their uniforms and the CEO behind his Brooks Brothers suit. Only the doctor's been charged, and yes, he should be charged, but how do you believe nurses, physician's assistants, even the pharmacist stood by and saw,

you know, basically homicide-level prescriptions going through their hospital pharmacy? They're not going to cope well, obviously, Nancy. it's horrific. And you're talking about someone who really was a serial killer, an undetected serial killer, somebody who was playing God. And what's interesting, because you hear so often how doctors feel like their God is that these people that worked underneath them, the nurses, the assistants, they were also acting as though, well, the doctor said so, and he knows better than I do. So it's this whole myth that you have to give the doctors power and that they know what they're doing and people comply. And it's gone on before.

This isn't the first time that a doctor or a nurse has been a serial killer and able to get away with it because they're doing something a subterfuge and they're doing it non-violently in the classic sense okay guys i want you i hope you're all sitting down because this is actually not dr william hussel's first brush with the law take Take a listen to our friends at NBC4 Columbus. Records from the state medical board show that Huesel fully disclosed his criminal history and promised to do better. I learned my lesson and will never make those types of mistakes again, he wrote to the board in 2013. Huesel, who was a basketball star in high school, describes that time as being a big fish in a small pond. But when he got to college at WAS A BASKETBALL STAR IN HIGH SCHOOL, DESCRIBES THAT TIME AS BEING A BIG FISH IN A SMALL POND.

BUT WHEN HE GOT TO COLLEGE AT WHEELING JESUIT IN 1994, THAT ALL CHANGED. HUSEL AND ANOTHER STUDENT REPORTEDLY COMMITTED A SERIES OF CAR BREAK-INS, STEALING STEREO EQUIPMENT. ACCORDING TO A PRESENTENCE INVESTIGATION REPORT, AFTER ONE OF THE VICTIMS REPORTED THEIR NAMES TO CAMPUS SECURITY, Hussle and another student built a pipe bomb. The report says they initially intended to detonate the pipe bomb under the vehicle of one of the students.

Instead, they put the bomb in a trash can on campus where it detonated just outside a campus building. Hussle was sentenced to six months in a halfway house and a year of probation. What? Haley Nelson, ABC 6, Fox 28, Columbus. What? Did I just hear he did time behind bars for detonating a pipe bomb? What? Yes, absolutely. Federal charges. This all came to light after we had found out about multiple of these patients and this entire

situation. So in 1996, June of 1996, he was indicted by a federal grand jury in West Virginia. But after this, he did go on, obviously, to get into medical school, continue on to the Cleveland Clinic and then to Mount Carmel. Okay, I'm having a hard time taking this in. Dr. William Maroney, now you know how lawyers can be. There's a reason lawyers have a bad reputation. If you're caught doing anything, at least where I went to law school at Mercer University and NYU, you were out on your fanny, out, O-U-T, with prejudice. How in the hay can a doctor get in to medical school, get into the Cleveland Clinic, and end up at this hospital? 35 people dead, connected to him, and he detonated a pipe bomb back in 96.

And let me tell you something, Maroney, I've been a fed. It takes a lot to get the feds off their rear ends and bring a charge. They want an airtight case, and it can take them years to put it together. But they got it on this guy. He did jail time. Help me, Maroney. Well, I got to tell you, as the foundation of medical education

can be just as incorrupt and competent as organized crime. If he's a really good looking guy and he interviews for medical school, they're going to let him in. If he's a salesman, he has a good handshake and a couple of good grades, they're going to let him in. If he's a salesman, he has a good handshake and a couple of good grades. They're going to let him in. Nobody looks in the past. Nobody digs this stuff up. And there's tons of doctors like this all over. And in every state, there are doctors that are incompetent that should not be delivering fentanyl we just it's a sad day for

columbus that this it was brought here let me understand something okay dr william roney i want you to hear this hailey nelson with me abc 6 fox 28 columbus hailey where did he go to medical school and where did he practice who did the medical board know about them, this charge, this conviction when they allowed him to practice medicine? Nancy, they did. And in a lot of cases, when he was getting into medical school, as you heard in that clip earlier, he wrote a letter apologizing, explaining, and that's how he got into that medical school, of course,

which was here in Ohio, Ohio University. And after getting in there, he was able, of course, which was here in Ohio, Ohio University. And after getting in there, he was able, of course, to climb the ladder, continue on with his career. Let me understand something. So Ohio University Medical School let him in with a felony conviction. Is that right? That's our understanding. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. And where did he first practice? What was his first hospital? Do we know? After going to medical school, he then went up to the Cleveland Clinic for a number of years, trained up there, and then he started working at Mount Carmel in 2013. And you're saying Mount Carmel Hospital, and is that located in Mount Carmel? So it's in West Columbus, at least the branch he was at primarily. All of these patients,

other than one, were in this West Columbus at the neighborhood called Franklinton. So the majority of this all playing out there from 2014 to just 2018. So all very, very recent. Mark Tate, lawyer joining me out of Savannah at TateLawGroup.com. Mark Tate, I can't look my doctors in the face. Now I'm going to go run a rap sheet on every single one of them. The last thing I want to see is some doctor who detonated a pipe bomb hovering over me or somebody in my family. How the hey does that happen? I mean, Mark, where did you go to law school? I went to the University of Georgia School of Law. And I assume that they check out whether you have a felony conviction.

And if they don't, then certainly the Georgia Bar does. I mean, I thought they would over everybody with a fine-tooth comb. They do. And, you know, in this instance, the State Bar of Georgia. They were up my rear end every time I made an objection in court. So how does this guy. Well, that's an interesting problem to have. Yes, it certainly is.

Mark Tate, how did this happen? I think that, well, first of all, you know, detonating pipe bombs. Just get that mental picture out of your mind. Detonating pipe bombs really doesn't indicate any lack of medical judgment, but they should have absolutely investigated that and taken into account. And we frankly, at this point, do not know whether that happened. but they should have absolutely investigated that and taken into account. And we frankly at this point do not know whether that happened. He blamed it on you. We don't know whether what happened. We don't know whether they investigated him and passed him.

We don't know if they knew. Don't they run rap sheets? They should have. Absolutely. They run it on lawyers. And what are we? Well, I mean, lawyers clearly have a. We're not.

We have life and death in our hands. Well, but they clearly have a higher ethical standard to practice law than to practice medicine. And I think this case bears that out. Okay, you know, I'm sorry. I just hurt my throat when I screamed. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. But they finally got her to where she could be on her own, but with help of the machine, but she could be on her own. I mean, on her own, but with help of the machine, but she could be on her own. I mean, on her own, but with help of the machine.

So everything seemed to be okay, you know. But they were going to take her up to ICU, which she'd been there before, so I thought everything would be okay. They took her upstairs, and then out comes this joker saying that she had... The joker, you're talking about Dr. Hussel? Yeah. Said that she was brain dead, and the machine wouldn't bring her back, and her lungs wouldn't bring her back in. And then I lost her.

Oh, dear Lord in heaven. You are hearing Columbus Dispatch reporter Jim Woods. That was David Austin describing his wife, Bonnie. She was stabilized in the ER. Everything was fine. They took her up to ICU and suddenly out comes Dr. Hussle saying that Bonnie is brain dead. oh my stars oh gosh i don't even want my mind to go where it is going karen stark of course you know what i'm imagining that happening to somebody i love everything's fine and then all of a sudden they're brain dead and and if you unplug the machine they die but everything was fine how can the mind a human mind even comprehend that?

Well, Nancy, I mean, that's so hard to take in, just like you're saying that's heartbreaking. And it's very hard to make sense of something like that. And it's another reason why you could see that this person that committed this crime is a killer, not someone who's performing mercy. Because here's somebody who was fine, and then all of a sudden gets killed for no reason other than someone had the power to be able to do that. And they've got to come to terms with the fact that their person died for absolutely no reason other than someone was a psychopath.

You know, I may not be a medical doctor, William Maroney, Dr. Maroney, but I can add, although it's not my forte, I know what two and two equals. Listen to this. You know, you always think, could have something else happened, because I couldn't figure out. The doctor downstairs in the ER said she was fine, just her heart was working fine. And in just a very short time, she goes up to the ICU,

and nothing, just not. That don't make sense. When he said she was brain dead, what did he, did he ask you something specifically then? He said, can you pull the plug? The doctor says, quote, can we pull the plug? Now, take a listen to the lawyer. They get her to the hospital around 7.37 p.m. Then they go through the emergency room, call the surgeon down, take care of the pneumothorax with a chest tube. She goes up to ICU. At

11.15, the pharmacist signs off on the fentanyl dosage. At 11.23, 600 micrograms of fentanyl were given along with Versed. Then the notes show at 11.28, it was then at 11.28 that the family decided to make a withdrawal of care. So apparently it was five minutes after the 600 micrograms. So he was actually, the fentanyl was given to her before? Well, I'm just telling you what the records show. At 11-23, the fentanyl was given. At 11-28, it's noted that the family made a decision to withdraw care. Whoa. Okay, Dr. Maroney, everything's fine. Her heart is working quote fine. According to the doctor, she's sent to ICU intensive care 11 15 pharmacist signs the fentanyl dosage 11 23 600 micrograms of fentanyl pumped in to this lady even though you and I know over 500

micrograms makes you stop breathing and then just eight minutes later less than eight minutes later, less than eight minutes later, she's brain dead. I mean, she's brain dead almost immediately at 1123 when they pump her full of fentanyl. It works that quickly, Dr. Maroney? Yeah, and if you listen real close to what he said, they gave fentanyl with Versed. Versed is a benzodiazepine, and together they're used in anesthesia to put people to sleep for surgery and to intubate them. That's what was given, a deadly combination, not just fentanyl. This is a godless, soul-sucking system that has lost all of its checks and balances from the top through the pharmacist, through the computer,

all the way down to when the medication is given. There's not enough balance. We forget that our power comes from God, not from a doctor screaming and yelling and pointing orders. Dr. Maroney, I'm just so distraught. To Haley Nelson, ABC6, Fox 28 Columbus, when I hear the voice of David Austin, who can't understand what went wrong, and now we know that his wife was pumped so full of fentanyl,

she died in minutes. I think the whole hospital needs to answer whether it brings down the walls around us the truth must be obtained another thing i don't understand is why they are refusing to call him a serial killer we have 35 dead people 25 have resulted in charges. Why are they not calling him a serial killer? Well, we have heard our state of Ohio Attorney General actually call him a serial killer publicly, but they believe because they don't have the conviction yet, they're not comfortable doing that. And Nancy, it's interesting, just recently we've gotten a glimpse into perhaps

what they could argue or at least what his attorneys are saying right now in a different lawsuit. So the Dr. Hussle, he just filed a lawsuit recently against the hospital and other groups, and they're claiming care, they say he was actually determining the right dosages for each of these patients. They're claiming that these patients had a high tolerance for these drugs and that he was doing what was right. Well, if it was the right dosage, why did they all die of overdose, Haley? That doesn't make any sense to me. So you think they're the think so far the prosecutors are not calling him a serial killer because there are no convictions. But obviously he is a serial killer. And to you, Karen Stark, do you think he fits the profile of a serial killer? Without a doubt, Nancy.

I mean, the power, it's sadistic. There is really no reason for why he was doing it that has to do with anything that's medical. And what a convenient way to be a serial killer because he doesn't have to do anything that's violent. All he has to do is administer this drug and get away with it. We also know that he was freed on $1 million bond. But of course, Haley and Elsie, you only have to put up $100,000 for that. With 25 counts of murder, I don't understand why he even got bond.

Why did the judge give him bond? That's what a lot of our viewers were shocked about and asking, but they said they were following their procedures. And a lot of the families, of course, very upset and devastated by all of this. But they said they were following the procedures laid out ahead of them. So let me understand.

In that jurisdiction, you get bond for murder. You can't get a no bond for 25 dead bodies. It depends on the situation. I think, too, with the timing of a lot of this, we know because they're requesting medical records and going over so many of these documents. It's certainly a long time process. And I think perhaps that may have played into all of this. You know, to me, it makes it worse, Mark Tate, because they've had time to realize the extent of his activity, his murders. Now he's filed a defamation lawsuit, I guess, against the hospital. Is that right, Haley Nelson?

Recently, yes. He has filed a lawsuit. Is it against the hospital? The hospital, their parent company, former CEO, among others. The hospital is Mount Carmel Hospital, the CEO. And who's the parent company? It's Trinity Health out of Michigan. So do you think, Mark Tate, that he, Dr. Husell, has filed a civil lawsuit as part of his defense strategy? You know, it's a ridiculous thing. The hospital has said nothing

but the truth about him. I think it's a tragic failure of legal strategy to let this man facing these charges swipe back at this hospital. Nothing they've said against him is true. They've never said that he's guilty of a crime, which is libel and slander per se. They are simply stating that we have confirmed that these are the levels of drugs that he dosed, and the individuals who he dosed with those drugs have died. And that's the truth. So it's a stupid lawsuit. Whatever lawyer filed it, I guess, was just taking Hussle's money or was trying to grab some headlines, maybe to boost his or her practice down the line. But I can't imagine any lawyer I know. And I know some good lawyers. I cannot imagine anyone advising this fella that it's a good idea to file a slander liable defamation lawsuit against the place that may be able to actually help you in defending yourself. Because remember, he is the guy who prescribed the drugs. Their nurses are the ones who fill the prescriptions. He had to bypass a drug dispensing system in order to be able to

get these drugs. There's so many other people to blame here for what happened. And all he's done is spark their ire to come out against him, you know, with all talons bared. And so if he came to me and asked me to file this lawsuit, I would tell him, you're stupid. Your hubris is causing you to think unclearly. And just because you got your medical degree and your board certified in anesthesiology, which is a legitimate pain management degree and certification, that doesn't mean you need to come out swinging at them. You need to be timid. You need to be calm. You need to be saying, I exercised what was my best medical judgment, and I should have had more backups if I was making the wrong judgment. Hospitals have a policy that says nurses are, in fact, required to go

up the chain of command if they question the instructions they're given. And the truth is that a nurse has the same exact duty to you and that is to act with reasonable care towards the patient and if the doctor is doing something that you knew or should have known is incorrect to go to the charge nurse and to go up the chain to the chief physician but do you think there's any way dr maroney he can blame the nurses and get off well he can say hey i gave the order if she didn't want to give If she didn't want to give it, she didn't have to give it. She could have said something, you know, but the nurse has a procedure. And if she clarifies that is his order, she has a director of nursing. She has a manager of nursing. Somewhere, somebody called somebody and said, hey, there's something going

on here. But it didn't happen until all these people died and it was outside of the hospital. This kind of investigation could have happened inside of the hospital because a nurse with some gravitas would have said, I'm not giving that order. And once they say that, somebody has to look in and see the past and they would have seen how many people are dying at the hands of a fentanyl injection.

And it's going to be multiple nurses, but they were working in silos and they were isolated. So it's a failure of communication in this whole system. He's at the top, and that hubris is the perfect word. And earlier on the pipe bomb indictment and conviction Haley Nelson told us about, remember this, the twice-divorced Dr. Hussle admitted that after he detonated the device on campus, he tried to frame another person by putting a pipe in their car. So not only did he detonate a pipe bomb, he tried to blame somebody else. And that is who the hospital had working on their patients. We wait as justice unfolds.

Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.