Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Serial Killer starts with murder of wife, now suspected in 16 deaths

Episode Date: April 15, 2021

Sean Lannon says he murdered 16 people, including his ex-wife and a former mentor who allegedly sexually abused him as a child. Lannon allegedly enticed four of the victims to a residence in New Mexico before killing and dismembering two of them. Authorities have tied Lannon to the March 5 discovery of four bodies in a parking garage at the Albuquerque International Sunport airport.Joining Nancy Grace Today: Dasie Castillo - Aunt of Matthew Miller (21-year-old victim), GoFundMe: Search "Mathew Millers Services" Dale Carson - Criminal Defense Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent, Former Police Officer, Author: "Arrest-Proof Yourself" Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, www.drbethanymarshall.com, New Netflix show: 'Bling Empire' Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder Dr. Michelle Dupre - Forensic Pathologist and former Medical Examiner, Author: “Homicide Investigation Field Guide” & "Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide", Ret. Police Detective Lexington County Sheriff’s Department Levi Page - Crime Online Investigative Reporter, Host, "Crime and Scandal" True Crime Podcast, YouTube.com/LeviPageTV  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You know, we read about serial killers all the time. There's Gacy, there's BTK, Bind, Tort buying Torture Kill Dennis Rader. There's Ted Bundy, of course. There's the Night Stalker. They go on and on and on, and they're almost fabled. That's not good. They're not just stories in some paperback novel. They're real. And here is a brand new one right under our noses. A prolific serial killer. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. This is how the whole thing starts. Listen.

21-year-old Matthew Miller's girlfriend reported him missing early in the year. He was last seen on January 24th. During that investigation, Grant's police discovered other individuals may also be missing, namely 39-year-old Jennifer Lannan and 40-year-old Jetson Mata. Police began looking for the pair who were friends with Miller. They were wanted for questioning about Miller's disappearance. Just a young kid, really, just 21 years old, just starting out in life, and suddenly he goes missing? With me, an all-star panel.

And believe me, when they started investigating Matthew's disappearance, it unraveled a story like none I have ever heard. With me, Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, host of Crime and Scandal, true crime podcast on YouTube. Dr. Michelle Dupree, forensic pathologist, former medical examiner, author, homicide investigation field guide and former sheriff. Cheryl McCollum, forensic expert and founder of the Cold Case Research Institute. You can find her at Coldcasecrimes.org. Psycho Analyst to the Stars, Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us out of LA. She's the star of a brand new hit series on Netflix called Bling Empire. And you can find her at drbethanymarshall.com.

Dale Carson, renowned criminal defense attorney. and he practices out of Jacksonville. But what you may not know is he's former FBI and cop author of Arrest Proof Yourself at DaleCarsonLaw.com. But right now, joining me, two very special guests. Connected to Matthew Miller, just 21 years old when he goes missing, Daisy Castillo. And I want to tell you about the GoFundMe search Matthew Miller's services. There's just one T in Matthew. Daisy Castillo with me. This is Matthew's aunt and also with us, Matthew's grandmother, Nita Schultz, both of them joining us out of New Mexico.

Daisy Castillo, Miss Castillo, do you remember when you first learned, that moment you learned Matthew is missing? Yeah, we knew right away something was wrong because this kid was an animal lover. And he left his animals behind. And right away, you know, my mom made a police report. That day, my mom made a police report. You're cutting out on me. Daisy Castillo, this is Matthew's aunt, saying that day when nobody could find Matthew and they realized he had left his animals untended.

They knew something was horribly wrong and made a police report. So, Ms. Castillo, how did you find out Matthew was missing? Honestly, my mom's good friend, Gabby, she lives next to her, next door to Matthew. And she had called my mom and said, said hey I haven't seen Matthew's truck for about a week holy moly whoa whoa wait right there right there hold on Cheryl McCollum director cold case research institute a week's lead I mean you and I do backflips when it takes three hours to support to report somebody missing because every, you can count on 60 miles an hour, that's how fast somebody could be getting away with the missing person.

In a week, you could drive and be in another country. In a week, you could dispose of every single thing connecting you to that victim. The weapon, their identity, fingerprints, you could destroy everything in that amount of time. Everything. So back to you, Ms. Castillo. No, back to why it took a week, because Matthew was with his girlfriend a lot. So when we called the girlfriend, the girlfriend, yeah, he's been missing.

I told him, well, excuse my language, I told her, why the hell didn't you call my mom? We could have made a report a long time ago, the night that he didn't come home. I know my husband wouldn't come home at night. I'm making a police report. But for some reason, she didn't tell nobody until the neighbor called my mom. We have no idea, no clue why she didn't share that info. You know, because Matthew did his own thing. She thought they were in some kind of a spat, and she was trying to wait him out.

To Nina Schultz. Ms. Schultz is Matthew's grandmother. Ms. Schultz, thank you for being with us. When did you learn your grandson was missing? We didn't even know for a week because she didn't even call us. And then, like I said, my friend Javi told us that he hadn't been there. So immediately we went over there and started going to the house, you know, to see if there was something going on in there. And so I filed a police report.

And then about a week after that, our detective here made some posters. And what's funny about that, and it's not funny, I don't mean that. Odd. Funny, odd. The day that we posted posters, the day we posted posters is the day the police found his truck. Found his truck. I mean, within hours of us putting posters up. Guys, the search for 21-year-old Matthew started the unraveling of an incredible story.

I want you to take a listen now to this. Court documents show Jennifer Lennon and Sean Lennon divorced in 2019. He sought and won custody of their three children. Relatives say in early March, Sean Lennon flew to his parents' home in New Jersey with his children, six- and seven-year-old girls and a four-year-old boy. He left again, saying that he was going to look for his ex-wife. Chris Whitman, Jennifer Lennon's brother, says he was told that she had run off with some friends, possibly to Arizona. Whitman says the story didn't sound right because she was a great mom and it was uncharacteristic for her not to be with her children. So now from a completely different direction on the left field comes

another missing person, Jennifer Lannan. Now Jennifer Lannan is a 39-year-old mom. Matthew Miller is a 21-year-old man, boy with a girlfriend. Now, these two both go missing. And at first, there's really no connection. I want to circle back to you, Levi Page. I want to talk about first Matthew. Matthew goes missing. The truck has been gone a week before anybody realizes he's gone. Tell me what we know at the get-go about 21-year-old Matthew Miller disappearing. His truck had not been discovered at his home. It's

been missing for a week. His neighbor informed the family and his girlfriend also said she had not seen him for a week. He was reported missing in late January. And this was an animal lover who had left his animals unattended. So automatically he went missing under extremely suspicious circumstances. Yeah. You know, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining us. Dr. Bethany, you know, the other woman is a mother, Jennifer Lannan, a devoted mother to tots. Then you've got this dog lover from two ends of the spectrum, not connected. Both go missing.

But in both cases, the behavioral evidence, she leaves her tots behind. He leaves all his animals behind. And he is a real animal lover. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, the story of a serial killer begins to unravel, and it all starts with an animal lover, 21-year-old, who's not there to take care of his animals, and the neighbor calls his family. Little does she know the story that would unfold. Go ahead, Bethany. Well, there's no reason in this day and age with all of our electronics, our phones, Twitter, Instagram, all of that, for anybody to be out of touch for more than an hour.

So that what links these two potential victims together is that they dropped out of sight everywhere and everybody minimized it. Nancy, if I have a patient who doesn't show up for a session and I'm concerned, I do what's called a welfare check. I get their address. I call the police. I have the police go knock on their door and make sure they're okay. And I've had patients leave therapy over it or be really angry at me. But twice in 30 years, I had a patient who was trying to commit suicide and didn't come to a session because they didn't want me to know. And the police got there in time two times in 30 years. So for your listeners and viewers, it's really important when somebody goes missing, just call 911, have them go knock on the person's door. Do not let a week go by. You know what's so interesting about what you're saying to Dale Carson, former FBI, former cop, author of Arrest Proof Yourself.

He's a lawyer now at DaleCarsonLaw.com. Dale, behavioral evidence. And I don't, it's called routine evidence. And I don't mean standard routine, you know, just run of the mill evidence. It's routine. I mean, evidence of your routine for him to just leave his animals and for her to just leave her children. It left no doubt in everybody's mind something was horribly wrong. But why seemingly is that never enough for police?

Well, this is called psychological profiling. And it looks at a person's history to determine whether or not they've acted in accordance with that personal history. And if they haven't, that indicates there's a problem. And certainly law enforcement, because most of these individuals are adults, adults have free will. They don't have to contact anybody. So that causes this constant delay in reporting. And we all feel embarrassed. Call the police and report somebody missing. They're going to be angry with you. The police don't want to do it anyway. So everybody's upset with you. to check on him and the pets? that killer took something. He targeted him for a reason.

And so, again, when you're talking about these patterns, it's going to be critical to know what did he take because that's what he's using. So, for example, was it a bank card? Was it a photo ID? Was it a vehicle? There was something he gained from that victim from the murder. So we've got. Are you talking about trophies, Doc? No, I'm actually talking about something I think that he's physically using. I think he targets

people because of what he needs. For example, let's say he's going to use these ride shares with a fake ID. He's getting them from these victims. So if you look at one victim is 21, one is 40, one is 60. A 47-year-old man may be weaving in and out with different IDs and that sort of thing. That's how he's staying on the run. So if you look at Virginia, St. Louis, New Mexico, he's crisscrossing to stay undetected. So, Levi Page, I know that Matthew Miller goes missing in New Mexico. I know Jennifer Lannan goes missing in New Mexico.

Who's the next person to go missing, Levi? Well, Nancy, Jennifer Lannan goes missing in New Mexico. Who's the next person to go missing, Levi? Well, Nancy, Jennifer Lannan went missing. She's 39 years old. She went missing in New Mexico, and her husband dropped the kids off with her parents in New Jersey. He said, I'm going back to New Mexico to search for Jennifer. And then there is Michael Dabowski, who was found dead in New Jersey, and others were also missing in New Mexico. What about Randall Apostelon? Yeah, he went missing in New Mexico as well, and police were beginning to connect all the dots. With questions arising all over the country, this happens next. Listen. The search for Matthew Miller, Jennifer Lennon, and Jetson Mata went on for weeks,

ending when the bodies of all three were found in a vehicle in a parking garage at Albuquerque International Sunport, New Mexico's largest airport. And there was another victim, 60-year-old Albuquerque resident Randall Apostolon. The bodies were found inside Apostolon's truck on the top level of the parking garage. So the search for Matthew ends in even more questions. Back to you, Daisy Castillo, Matthew's aunt. When were you alerted that his body had been found, but that it was dismembered? Well, we actually, we read it on Facebook, called it, called it.

They, then when we called the detectives, they said no. And then the next day they, and that was on what, on the 5th or the 6th? Yeah. And then we, then we read it on the Facebook and then the 6th, they came and let us know that it was Matthew. They told us no at first and then they had an officer come let us know the next day. Ms. Schultz, what is your recollection of discovering Matthew was in fact dead and had been dismembered? I lost it, honestly. Did someone call you on the phone?

My mom was at my house. We were all at my house, and the cop was at her house. And we told them to meet us at the Milan supermarket. That's a little grocery store down from my house. And that's where we all found out. And it was... Go ahead. It was rough. It was devastating.

Like I said, we lost his mom in April and now him. And it was just it. And this was the worst way. He didn't deserve it. And it was devastating. I mean, it's it's changed the whole family. Ms. Schultz, do you remember the moment you discovered that Matthew, your grandson, was dead? Not just dead, but dismembered as well. I lost it. I really did. We kind of knew what they were going to tell us, but it was hard hearing it. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

I'm crying. I just can't imagine that. Learning from Facebook, then asking them, they say no, and then you find out, in fact, it is true. And you know what? It's almost more harsh, Dr. Bethany, because you have that moment of thinking, oh, thank goodness that's not him. Only to find out, yes, it was him, Bethany. You know, the reality changing again and again, all that time that they were waiting. And the idea that he's dismembered in a car at an airport parking lot, it leaves so many questions in the victim's family's minds.

Like, how did he get there? Who dismembered him? What were his final moments like? You know, trauma is not just losing somebody, but it's knowing that the loved one went through some painful or excruciating experience. It's not what happens to us that causes trauma. It's knowing that a loved one suffered. That's more traumatic than harm being done to the self. So I think all these questions,

the ambiguity, the unknown, it's just rife for anguish, Nancy, just anguish. I want to go to Dr. Michelle Dupree, joining us, forensic pathologist, former medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Dr. Dupree, not only is the family shocked by the discovery, their young 21-year-old grandson, their nephew, is dead. But that he's dismembered in a car at an airport in Albuquerque, and there are other dismembered people. That's almost too much to take in. Dr. Michelle Dupree, as a crime scene investigator for the medical examiner's office, as a medical examiner, how do you handle a scene like that?

Nancy, it's difficult. You have to be so careful. There is likely so much evidence. There's also contamination. You have to deal with how long the scene has been there, how long of the body's been there. You have more than one body. It's horrific. You have to do everything very methodically. You have to make sure that everything is photographed for sure in place and then that everything is taken back to the medical examiner's office and very carefully examined. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about a serial killer under the nose, under the noses of friends and family.

His crimes spanning across the country. And it all starts with a 21-year-old, Matthew Miller, who doesn't feed his pets. And the neighbor calls, and he's reported missing. And the story that unfolds is like no other. To Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute, forensics expert, that car and everything about it has to be handled very carefully, very carefully. And it brings to mind the Atlanta Fulton County Courthouse shooting. You recall, I was on a plane from New York to LA when I got a text about the shooting. I grabbed my bag, got off that plane and got on another plane to Atlanta, our friend, our colleague, Al Dixon, was part of the crew that processed that scene, mass shooting. And it took literally days to process the scene. The bodies had to lay where they were for hours for the photographs, the measurements. And then once the bodies were removed,

then came the task of actually processing for evidence. It's very difficult to process a scene like this. How do you do it, Cheryl? Again, Nancy, for me, it's going to start from the outside in. You don't want to go in too quickly. There's going to be prints and things on the outside of that car. There may be dust or sand that give you an idea of where all that car has traveled. There could be stuff under the undercarriage. You're going to want to look at everything. Every single thing matters. Are the keys in it?

Are the lights on? What's in the trunk? What's in the glove compartment? How are the victims? Are the heads with each body? Are they separated? Are they just thrown in? Can you possibly understand, you know, who was murdered first based on how they are found? Is any victim on top of the other victim? You've got to get those bodies in as quickly as possible to the medical examiner's office in order to do the best autopsy possible.

The body will unlock so many clues, right? The longer you delay, the worse it's going to get. But in this case, some of the bodies have been dead for three months. And so when putrefaction takes effect, you know, a lot of that evidence disappears. A lot of the actual evidence that can be used to determine the manner of death disappears. So they've been in the heat on the top floor of a parking lot for several months. And I've got to know that that's a difficult crime scene to look at and to analyze. And I'm sure that top floor was chosen for a reason, because who

takes their car all the way to the top of the deck to park it? He knew that nobody was going to come up there and find these bodies. Now, you were just hearing Dale Carson, a former FBI, speaking to Dr. Michelle Dupree. Weigh in. Actually, what we would do in many cases, Nancy, is after everything has been photographed in place at the scene where the van is found, we would then move the van to the medical examiner's office so that it could be processed in the garage at the ME's office. You still have to take so much time and it can take days actually to do that. But as soon as we can process that van and the bodies inside at the ME's office, we can begin to collect evidence. And even though

they may be somewhat decomposed, we can still collect certain evidence from that, from the fluids and everything else that remains inside that van. So let me understand what you're saying. You wouldn't even take the bodies from the vehicle? You'd take the vehicle to the ME's office? Yes, oftentimes we would do that. We would take the complete vehicle after it had been photographed in place at the scene and all the things that we could gather at the scene were done, then we would remove the entire vehicle intact to the garage at the medical examiner's office and continue the investigation there. Yeah, you're right. I didn't even think of that. You're absolutely right. Is that Dale jumping in? Go ahead. It's not all that unusual. We've actually shipped an entire pay telephone booth to the

bureau to have it analyzed because we were so concerned that we might lose evidence. Wow. So you can imagine the agents lifting a telephone booth onto a truck to transport it. That's why you guys are the experts. So here we have this happening in an Albuquerque airport in a vehicle. And you've got Nita Schultz, the grandma. You've got Daisy Castillo, the aunt, just reeling with the news that this is in fact 21 year old matthew miller and he's dead and he's been dismembered he's in a car parked at an airport on the top floor of the the parking deck can you imagine getting that phone call then they find out

there are other bodies that are in the vehicle also dismembered as dale told you earlier from months before so what is happening in this case well hold on to your hat take a listen to ann annie mccormick at abc6 this is wpvi tv a murder of a man in east greenwich Township sparked a manhunt. Police releasing an all-points bulletin Wednesday for this man, 47-year-old Sean Lannan. The South Jersey victim, whose name was not released by authorities, was discovered murdered in a home on Myrtle Avenue on Monday. Lannan is also tied to the discovery of four dead bodies found last Friday in a vehicle parked at the Albuquerque, New Mexico airport. One of the victims in that case, Lannan's ex-wife, Jennifer. Both are New Jersey natives but lived in Grants, New Mexico and divorced in 2019. At least one of the four bodies discovered was a man reported missing

and Jennifer was wanted for questioning in that case. Sean Lannan was awarded sole custody of the couple's children two years ago, but authorities confirmed even though he still has physical custody, the children are safe and not with their father. So now some things are starting to fit together. Straight out to Dale Carson joining us, former fed with the FBI and cop, author of Arrest Proof Yourself. So Dale, now we're learning from ABC6 WPVI about a dead man in East Greenwich Township that sparks a manhunt for a guy last name Lannan. Then we piece together one of the victims in that car in Albuquerque, Lannan's wife. Right. That draws the line together for them. So they now know that Lannan is connected with the death in New Jersey, Dupree, and that is because. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Remember, we have to identify which victim we're talking about because there's so many. cops now think, I think this is what you're saying, is they suspect Sean Lannan is connected

to the body, Jennifer Lannan, in that car. And if he's connected to her, then he must be connected to the other bodies. They are all connected with Lannan through their past history. They knew Shannon, or rather they knew Lannan when he was young, and that's where they all met. So the wife, Jennifer, she ends up being killed first, as I read this, probably shot sometime in January, and then he travels to take his children to Jennifer's parents in New Jersey, I believe. Right. And while they are there, there's another murder that occurs that is connected to the mentor for Lannan back in the 19, probably 80s, when Lannan was attending a boys club in New Mexico. Are you talking about Michael Debkowski?

I am talking about specifically Michael Debkowski. And Michael Debkowski also mentored Lannan's brother as well. So there's a long-term connection. Okay, now hold on. Hold on. Wait, wait, wait. See, again, let's be very clear. Sean Lannan, we believe, murdered his wife jennifer lannan in

january yes he takes their mutual children across the country from new mexico to new jersey to leave the children with family right then suddenly another dead body michael debkowski, he's dead. What about the others? To you, Levi Page, shed some light on all these dead bodies. How are they connected to Sean Lannan? So Jennifer Lannan, Mike Miller, and Justin Mata, who were found dead in New Mexico, they were all friends with Jennifer Lannan, Sean Lannan's ex-wife. And the other man that was dead, Apostolin, 60 years old, he was living in that neighborhood of New Mexico and he lived out of his car and he was known to give people rides, do odd jobs, help people move anything for extra money when they needed help. He was found dead as well. So you're basically telling me 40-year-old Justin and 60-year-old Apostolon

were just friends of the wife, and they end up dead too. Yes, and Mike Miller. Okay, guys, take a listen to Annie McCormick, ABC6. Landon is also accused of breaking into a building in Monroeville Elk Township armed with a knife. Earlier this week, he is described as ex-military with a violent past and a drug problem. Police believe he was spotted in Camden on Monday. The U.S. Marshal Service put a $5,000 reward out for information leading to Landon's arrest.

And we don't know yet if that $5,000 reward was a catalyst for information leading to Landon's arrest. And we don't know yet if that $5,000 reward was a catalyst for information that led to Landon's arrest. At this time, he is not named a suspect. However, he again was wanted in connection for questioning of those five murders in New Mexico and also here in New Jersey. The U.S. Marshals Service offering a $5,000 reward, but seemingly it gets worse.

Here's Gray Hall, ABC 6. Prosecutors revealed a bombshell against Sean Lennon, the 47-year-old man accused of several murders in New Mexico and one in East Greenwich, Gloucester County, New Jersey earlier this month. They allege he's responsible for even more murders. He admitted to killing a total of 16 people between New Mexico, albeit 15 being in New Mexico and one in the state of New Jersey. That victim in New Jersey was identified as 66 year old Michael Dabkowski. Albuquerque police say the bodies of Sean's ex-wife Jennifer Lennon and three others were found in a pickup truck abandoned at an airport. Prosecutors say Lennon admitted the crimes to a family member. He told the witness he was extremely sorry for all the things he had done.

Extremely sorry for all the things done? Then why didn't he turn himself in? And where are we getting 16 dead bodies? Where's that number coming from? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Well, the manhunt is underway. Take a listen now to Sarah Blomquist, Brian Taff, and Annie McCormick, ABC6. With breaking news this noon, we're just in that the multi-state manhunt is now over for a man wanting the connection with five murders. Minutes ago, we learned that federal marshals captured Sean Lannan in St. Louis, Missouri. The 47-year-old was wanted for questioning in a Gloucester County murder and four others in New Mexico.

Action News reporter Annie McCormick is live now outside the prosecutor's office in Woodbury, New Jersey, with these breaking developments. Annie. That's right, Sarah, and authorities here releasing that major development and what turned into a nationwide manhunt. They're releasing those details just minutes ago. Sean Lannan is alive and now in custody in Missouri. The U.S. Marshals taking him into custody in St. Louis earlier this morning. Well, they finally find this guy in St. Louis. He has crisscrossed the country, not unusual for serial killers. And listen to the story he tells. Here's Nancy Laughlin, a KOAT. Sean Lannan told police he found his wife, Jennifer, in bed with another man, Justin Matta.

In the documents, it says he killed his wife and put her in a container in their backyard, then did the same to Matta, that he lured a third man to his home, Matthew Miller, that Lannan dismembered Matta and Miller. Earlier this month, police found all three victims in a vehicle at the Sunport, along with a fourth victim. Investigators say they think three of the four were killed in Grants, the fourth in Albuquerque. I don't understand, though, Levi Page, even if it's true what he, a serial killer, says, if you want to take that with a box of salt, that he murdered his wife, Jennifer, after finding her in bed with another man, Justin Mata.

Then why would he lure a 21-year-old Matthew Miller and kill him? What's the connection? Well, Michael Miller was friends with Jennifer, Lana, and Nancy. And as a motive, he gave a story that I'm not going to even repeat because it was, it's an accusation that he made about the victim that police say there's no evidence blame the victim blame the victim you know he lured them all using his ex-wife's cell phone posing as her to get them to the home so he could kill them that's how diabolical he is and how premeditated this was i I mean, Sheryl McCollum, this guy's smart. He parks the vehicle at the top, the very top deck, probably off in the corner at an airport where he knows people aren't going to come up there unless there's a lot of travel, which there would not have been in times of COVID. He knows nobody's going to come up there. And then he had

used her, his ex-wife's cell phone, to lure people over. You know, he's not dumb, Cheryl. And then he's all over the country crisscrossing, evading cops. Absolutely. He's an organized killer, Nancy. So he plans these things, which makes it much more difficult to catch him because he takes his time to plan how he's going to do it and more importantly, how he's going to get away. So again, the fake IDs, the using the ride share, the crisscrossing of the United States, to not having a quick automatic link to some of the victims, that takes a lot of time for law enforcement. Meanwhile, he's still moving, which makes it difficult.

You know, when you throw out, which are all correct, some of his technique, let me say, using fake IDs, using the right share. Explain how he exploited those, Cheryl. Well, he would use, you know, like an Uber, but he would give a fake name and he would go to another state. We still don't know what he did in Virginia. And then he would go to another state and use another ID, another identity, and he would keep moving. So, again, by the time law enforcement realizes, wait, he was just here. We have him on video surveillance and we picked him up on a cell phone ping. They're playing catch up all the time to find out all these people that use Uber.

You know, which one is him and where did he go and what did he do when he was there? We still don't know and with like an organized killer nancy there's usually three different scenes that you are looking for you're looking for where he apprehended the victim from where he killed the victim at and where he disposed to the victim and all three of these are going to be really important for law enforcement to keep tracking down. And you know, to you, Dale Carson, former FBI, now at DaleCarsonLaw.com. Dale, it's not like on a Jason Bourne movie. You don't just go pull up a secret compartment under your floor where you take out all of your fake passports and your $200,000 in unmarked bills and all of your semi-automatic weapons and Velcro them to your body under your clothes.

This guy had to think it all through very carefully with all these fake IDs and the ride chairs and all of the techniques he used to avoid police. I mean, he was very cunning, Dale. No, there's no question. And these are the most dangerous of killers because they're highly intelligent. They're socially adequate. They

can move between different social levels with ease. I mean, if you look at his photograph, it's perfect. His photograph with his deceased wife, he's wearing a trifocal glasses, which is an indication of the requirement in his world for precision that most people don't have. So this is a guy who is dangerous. And until he's apprehended and put in custody, he's going to continue to kill because he enjoys doing that, killing. To Daisy Castillo, Matthew Miller's aunt, the 21-year-old victim in this case, how was Matthew lured into this guy's murder web? You know, as far as I know, he was friends with the wife. And the guy was very jealous. He thought something was going on between his wife and Matthew. And he used he used the wife's phone to get him to meet him.

You know, you're so right. I think that's what happened, Dr. Bethany. I think that he murders his wife. He gets her cell phone and starts using it to lure people over. For instance, if you look at my phone, you see John David, John David, John David, Lucy, Lucy, Lucy, Jack, Jack, Jack, Jack. Well, Jackie's my producer. But if you looked at it, you'd think, wow, why is she calling a guy named Jack so much? Well, it's Jackie.

And it's my producer right here at Fox Nation and Sirius XMU. That's what he did. He gets on her phone. He sees these guys she's calling. He sees that she's calling friend Matthew Miller, lures him over, probably texted him, to kill him, and then makes up a story that he's the aggressor. That's right, Nancy. I mean, remember, this type of serial killer killing is a crime of opportunity. Usually, the serial killer has a type. It might be a sex worker. It might be young boys. It might be middle

aged men. What's interesting about this serial killer, he doesn't seem to have a type. It's his ex-wife. It's a 21 year old. But yet it's all revolved. The nucleus of his crimes deals with his ex-wife. But wait a minute. That's not entirely true. Take a listen to Nancy Laughlin, KOAT. Authorities in New Jersey have also charged him with murder there. They say Lannan told them he was tied to more than a dozen murders in New Mexico. I asked the district attorney out of Grants about that today. We don't have any evidence of that at all and to my knowledge there's no there's no missing there's not that many missing person cases in Grants that would account for that.

That's not to say he couldn't have killed him somewhere else, or from somewhere else, but certainly in Grants, we don't have any evidence of that many people that have been missing. In court documents filed today, a witness told police Lennon came to her home smelling like bleach that his hands had cuts and blisters from cleaning. Now, the D.A. tells me that they're still searching several locations in the Grants area for forensic evidence in this case. As we know, the victims don't have to be limited to one county, Grant County. It doesn't have to be that way. These victims are from all over.

I mean, think about it. Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. This guy has crisscrossed the country. They've got him in Virginia, Missouri, New Mexico, New Jersey. He's everywhere. No telling what bodies he left where. And you're correct, Nancy. And when he killed Michael Dobrikowski, 66 years old, beat him to death with a hammer, took off with his vehicle,

his murder victim's vehicle, went on the run and had the murder weapon with him still in the vehicle. And there's no telling what sort of crimes he committed along the way. Law enforcement still connecting those dots. Daisy Castillo, you were telling me about your nephew Matthew's I.D. and clothing. Yes. I know the guy had got rid of him. He put him in a black trash bag along with his clothes, his I.D., his cell phone, and got rid of him. And he didn't have it.

He didn't take Matthew's I.D. You know, Matthew was the type, if you called him for a ride, he would go and take you where you needed to go. And I'm thinking maybe that's how we ordered him. He pretended that he was the ex-wife and asked for a ride. That could have been the way he lured. We're going to learn a lot from all of the cell phone data. So I have no doubt in my mind, Cheryl McCollum, that there are other victims. It could be. Absolutely, Nancy. But I'll give you one thing to think about.

When he was captured, he knew daggum well he was going to go to prison for the rest of his life. He's got no cred. You killed a woman and three men that you believe was sleeping with her. That just makes you a punk. So he had to come up with a story pretty freaking quick to give himself some type of credibility before they lock him up. Well, saying you're a big time serial killer with 16 victims might just help you out. Might just help him out. What about it, Dr. Bethany? I agree. When I read the story and I was listening to Cheryl McCollum, I was thinking, I think this guy's also a drama queen.

Besides being a serial killer, he's a drama queen besides being a serial killer he's a drama queen and we know with these types of personalities and these profiles that they like to be um famous or infamous they love to be important so trumping up the number of bodies and how many people they killed it just keeps the whole investigation going it makes him the center of. It's creating a type of mystique. And, you know, look, maybe he did kill that many people, but he's going to make the story sound a lot more dramatic than they really are. What about Adele Carson? Well, that's him blaming the victims for all of this and why they did things wrong. And I absolutely agree. I mean, the Bureau back in the 80s interviewed a number of serial killers, and it wasn't unusual to find that they were triggered by a certain action.

For example, a guy takes a lady to a bar, has dinner with her, and she looks at other men, and that's when the serial killer decides he's going to kill that person. much and certainly his purported involvement or his belief that Lannan's belief that his wife Jennifer was somehow sleeping or involved with other men is certainly sufficient to cause him to want to kill those people. The catalyst to Dr. Michelle Dupree. Dr. Dupree, you've dealt with the autopsies of serial killer victims. I find it really hard to believe these are all of his victims. Nancy, I tend to agree with you. We do know that they will not stop until they're caught. And the fact that he's confessed to 16 or so, I wonder how many more there are that he hasn't told us about. To the Castillos and the Schultz, our prayers go on for you. And the way that Matthew was lured into this guy's murder web,

we wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.