Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - SERIAL KILLERS MULTIPLY, KILL AT WHIM UNDETECTED

Episode Date: January 3, 2024

From Jack the Ripper to Ted Bundy, serial killers strike fear in the hearts of almost everyone; and not just fear, but fascination. What motivates someone to become a serial killer?  Is it rage or hate?  Today, Nancy Grace and her panel look at three well-known cases including BTK Bind, Torture, Kill - Dennis Rader. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Dale Carson – High-profile Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent & Former Police Officer (Miami-Dade County); Author: “Arrest-Proof Yourself” Dr. Joni Johnston – Forensic Psychologist and Private Investigator (performs risk and threat assessments on violent offenders); Author: “Serial Killers: 101 Questions True Crime Fans Ask” Frank Falzon - Former San Francisco Homicide Inspector and Author: “San Francisco Homicide Inspector 5-Henry-7: My Inside Story of the Night Stalker, City Hall Murders, Zebra Killings, Chinatown Gang Wars and a City Under Siege” Douglas MacGregor – Geographic Profiler (specializes in serial and violent crime, missing persons, and locating clandestine burial sites); Twitter: @TheGeoProfilerer Dr. Kendall Crowns – Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth) and Lecturer: University of Texas Austin and Texas Christian University Medical School Dr. Peter Vronsky - Forensic Historian and Author of Several Best-selling Books on the History of Serial Homicide, including: “American Serial Killers: The Epidemic Years, 1960-1960” and ‘Sons of Cain: A History of Serial Killers from the Stone Age to the Present;" IG:  @dr.petervronsky  Facebook: Peter Vronsky   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Are there more serial killers walking amongst us or are we just learning about them more often? From new victims in the BTK prosecution in the last days, sheriffs have been searching a rural area in Butler County in Kansas in connection to BTK? Are they on to even more bodies, victims of buying, torture, kill? Dennis Rader, the dog catcher? Then is a border patrol agent actually a serial killer? And to Oregon, where I feel very confident a serial killer is stalking. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here on Crime Stories and Sirius XM 111.

Speaking of Dennis Rader, it was his idea for the media to call him BTK by torture kill. So I call him the dog catcher. In the last days, a new search listened. During an investigation, investigators do not like to share information with the media because they don't want anything to jeopardize the investigation. However, unless you're in the media or law enforcement, you might not know what can be released to the public. So homeowners of a property in Butler County, Kansas,

say sheriff's deputies and investigators were on their property for seven hours looking for evidence related to a missing persons case. They couldn't remember the name of the person they were looking for, but they did remember the person was 16. Cynthia Don Kenny was 16 when she vanished. The property owners added that

the Osage County Sheriff's Office came to the property in March. At that time, search dogs were brought out, but the property owners say nothing was found. Alina Burrows with CSI Crime Scene Confidential told KSN-TV, quote, we have received information that Dennis Rader has been on this property at some point in time. The National BTK Task Force is here to follow up on those leads. Well, I'm telling you right now, if BTK, Dennis Rader, the dog catcher, has been strolling around rural Butler County, I guarantee you it's connected to a case. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now, but first to a member along with me

on the BTK special task force, Cheryl McCollum, forensic expert, founder, director, Cold Case Research Institute, and host of a new hit series, Zone 7. Cheryl, I know there's a lot that you and I cannot discuss being on the task force, but the homeowners have now come forward and stated that the Osage County law enforcement was on their property looking for evidence as it relates to 16-year-old Cynthia Dawn Kinney. What do you make of it? You and I can certainly confirm that. I mean, it was on TV. And what's important is this information that came forward from the landowner, the actual homeowner, it was credible enough that Sheriff Vierden felt like we need to get out there and

do our due diligence to find out, can we connect him with anything from that property? And that's what we did. I'll tell you one thing to Dr. Peter Vronsky joining us out of Toronto. You're a forensic historian, author of multiple bestselling books on serial killers, including American Serial Killers, The Epidemic Years and Sons of Cain. if Dennis Rader is spotted walking around your rural property, you better call in the scent dogs pronto. Agree, disagree. Oh, I agree. It's absolutely possible and plausible. This is what serial killers often do.

And I'm sure there could be plausibly lots of cases still out there that he kind of has kept to himself as little tokens of control. He maybe let go of a few, but there's some he could be nurturing. And in fact, I'm in the middle of something like this with a serial killer in Long Island with cases going back to 1968 to 1973, which we closed there last December. So this is not unusual what is happening. No, it's not unusual at all. Now, why would we connect BTK with 16-year-old Cynthia Dawn Kinney? Listen. The 1976 unsolved disappearance of 16-year-old Cynthia Don Kenny,

who was last seen working at a laundromat in Osage, Oklahoma, is back in the news. Dennis Rader, BTK, confirmed that he was questioned by Oklahoma investigators about the cold case because of the visits he made to the area at the time of Kenny's disappearance. Rader, who confessed in detail to other murders, denies any involvement in this case. However, Osage County Sheriff Eddie Verdon has read Rader's journals from cover to cover and believes the killer left clues. One of Rader's journal entries around the time of Kinney's disappearance was, laundromats were a good place to watch victims and dream.

It was Sheriff Verdon's Osage County Sheriff's Office that went out to the site of the killer's former home and found pantyhose tied in a knot, something Rader would have used to strangle a victim. It's just too much of a coincidence that he's talking about finding a murder victim, a female murder victim at a laundromat, and then Cynthia Kinney or a victim goes missing or had been connected to a laundromat. Joining me right now is Douglas McGregor. You know him well, geographic profiler who specializes in serial killing and violent crime. You can find him at the GeoProfiler. Douglas McGregor, thank you for being with us. How do you think the connection holds up in a court of law between the Butler County, this rural area search in Kansas, to the Oklahoma serial killing activity? The investigators would have to find, would have to do a linkage analysis and see if... Slow down, slow down. A linkage analysis, what? Yeah, so they'd have to see if there's enough common factors

between the crimes there and the crimes that he committed in the past. And obviously, the laundromat is one promising lead. Dennis Rader, traditionally, his crimes that he's been convicted for, he's a home-based offender or a marauder. So he attacks from his home and his activity space is surrounded, is around his home area, his residence. But these other crimes, they're outside of that area. So they would have to find, other than geography, they would have to find other common linkages to link him to those crimes. Well, what about our cut five? Listen to this, members of the panel.

BTK talking about might be something left in some old barn. Listen. As Dennis Rader, the self-proclaimed BTK serial killer, is now the prime suspect in the Cynthia Kinney case, some old information has become new again, such as the sheriff's office received an anonymous call shortly after Kinney's disappearance. The mail caller said that she was located in an old barn. There is no evidence that that lead was ever followed up, but authorities are now looking at detailed drawings made by Rader showing young girls tied and bound in barns. There is also a conversation heard on one of Rader's prison phone calls this past August. On the call, he is heard to say, quote, there might still be something in some old barn. To Frank Felzone, joining us out of California, former San Francisco Homicide

Inspector, author of San Francisco Homicide Inspector 5-Henry-7, my inside story of the night, stalker, city hall murders, and zebra killings, Chinatown gang wars, and a city under siege. Wow. You know your stuff, Felzone. Question to you, Frank. When you are hearing this conversation that Dennis Rader, the dog-catching killer, is having, what, people still don't know their calls are being recorded behind bars? Well, everything boils down to what your jurisdiction and the prosecution needs to make a conviction. I always found that your crime scene tells you a story, and that story gets you going in the right direction. And then it's just

following the leads, and each lead has to be developed to its fullest. The Night Stalker case in the Bay Area that terrified the state of California, that case was broke on a bracelet that was taken during one of the hot prowl burglaries in the residence of a doctor. So you never know what little link is going to break your case. But the serial murderers, the killers that stalk people, they're out there and they're going to be out there forever. And it seems like with the media glorifying these individuals, there's going to be no end to what's happening in our country. I got news for you, fellas. Serial killers are going to keep on killing whether they're found out or not found out, whether they're publicized or not publicized. But you

do speak the truth specifically as it relates to Dennis Rader, BTK, because he loves what he believes to be the adulation of the media. What it really is, is disgust. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Cheryl McCollum, the fact that he says behind bars, I know you can talk about this because it's out there. This is not part of what we're learning on the task force. He says in a phone call, on a prison call, and this is just a couple of months ago, he says, there might still be something in some old barn. On the property in rural Butler County, there were several barns. So again, we had to do our due diligence and search those and see if

there was any connection that we could make. Dr. Kendall Crowns is joining me. A renowned medical examiner joining us out of Fort Worth, lecturer, University of Texas and TCU Medical School. Dr. Kendall Crowns, well, you're from the same town as BTK. I hope you don't know each other. But that said, if a body had been placed or a victim had been placed in a barn so long ago, searching now, it's highly unlikely that there would be any DNA evidence or any evidence left of the victim unless something had been buried. And he's known for burying trophies. But address that if you could, Dr. Crowns. So, yes, BPK and I are from the same hometown. He was actually one of my dad's

students at the University, Wichita State University. But if he left the body above ground, now it's been out for decades, it would be desiccated or dried up and there really wouldn't be anything that you could probably get from it for DNA. Now, if it was buried and it was buried deep, it could have delayed the decomposition process. So there could be still tissue remaining muscle, dried muscle, or even bone marrow that could be extracted from the bones to do DNA testing from. Even though sometimes, as you well know, Cheryl McCollum, and I'll throw this to Dale Carson, high-profile lawyer joining us out of the Jacksonville jurisdiction, but also former

FBI agent and author of Arrest Proof Yourself. You can find him at DaleCarsonLaw.com. Dale, thinking back to your days as a Fed, as an agent, even when you know you're not going to be able to find something, you still have to look. Well, absolutely. And the advantage to a barn is that it's allowable to be in more or less a pristine state compared to being out in the woods somewhere where it would be affected by rain and sun. And there's a possibility, Cheryl McCollum, we know he high squirrels things away. He buries them. Would he have buried something out in one of these barns?

I don't know. Absolutely. I mean, he could have buried a souvenir that he took from a scene. He talks about that. We know that from serial killers throughout history. They will take items and they want to secure them for their own pleasure. So there's no doubt that's something that needs to be explored at every possible scene. And there's the issue of pictures tied to another crime scene. Take a listen to our cut seven. Dennis Rader is also considered the prime suspect in the murder

of Shauna Beth Garber. The 22-year-old Garber was found raped, strangled, and hogtied in Missouri on December 2nd, 1990, but she was not identified until 2021. Until then, she was known as Grace Doe. When her body was identified, investigators found out that Shawna Garber went missing from Topeka, Kansas on November 3, 1990. Dennis Rader was named a prime suspect in her murder when photos were found in one of his journals that directly tie him to the crime scene. To Cheryl McCollum, who is on the BTK task force along with me, this is also information that has not been kept confidential. The photos found in his journal, why did those photos tie him to

Shauna Garber? The photographs, again, are going to be something that depicts the location. And he puts himself there. So it's not something that can be ignored. With the Garber case, he's one of a few persons of interest that, again, they've got to rule him in or rule him out. Can they put him there on the dates that she went missing? Is there anything that he has said in the past that puts him with her or speaks to her and keep in mind, a lot of these folks study one another, even recently with the long Island serial killer.

Dennis Rader has come out and made statements about that situation. So it's something he could have been writing about because he was knowledgeable of it. I don't know that Garber is one of his victims. I'm not completely bought in on that. But again, you've got to look at it and rule him in or rule him out. Well, I'm telling you,

and I think that Dr. Joni Johnson will agree, forensic psychologist, PI, author of Serial Killers, 101 Questions True Crime Fans Ask, there are going to be other BTK victims. I have no question about that, Dr. Johnston. I agree with you, Nancy. I would be absolutely stunned to think that he has only killed people he's confessed to because this issue of power and control and being able to play games with people.

And, you know, it's so complicated when we talk about sexually motivated serial killers. So I completely agree with you. Whether the task force is investigating or included or not, there's no question he has other victims out there that he has not confessed to. And now we turn our attention to what many believe is another serial killer. Take a listen to our cut 10 from CrimeOnline.com. The border city of Laredo, Texas, appeared to have a possible serial killer on the loose. In a period of 12 days, two sex workers have been picked up

from an area known to locals as the prostitution blocks on San Bernardo Avenue in Laredo, taken out to remote areas northwest of the city and shot in the head. When a special law enforcement team was put together to hunt down a possible serial killer kidnapping and murdering sex workers, David Ortiz, the intelligence supervisor for the Border Patrol, was asked to join the team. Wow. David Ortiz asked to join the team. We believe the first victim may have been Melissa Ramirez. Take a listen. On September 4th, when Melissa Ramirez didn't come home,

her mother, Christina Benavides, went looking for her daughter on San Bernardo. She came across 42-year-old Claudine Ann Luera, one of Melissa Ramirez's friends on the street, and asked her if she had seen Melissa. Luera hadn't. Ten days later, on September 13th, friends would be looking for Claudine and Luera when she didn't come home. 29-year-old Melissa Ramirez was on San Bernardo Boulevard on the

prostitution blocks when she sees a familiar white truck pull over to talk. She knows the driver is David, a military man, tall, handsome. They've done this before, so the mother of two gets in the truck. As they drive down a rural country road about two miles outside the city. David stops the car from Melissa to get out and relieve herself without warning. David shoots her in the head multiple times. Her body is not discovered until the next day. Dr. Peter Vronsky joining us out of Toronto. Dr. Vronsky, what do you make of the M.O., the modus operandi, in this particular case?

This is a very interesting case, and it's almost like a new species of serial killers who are emerging in the prime of their career. Like that colonel in Canada, Colonel Russell Williams, who suddenly in his 40s is becoming transforming almost into a serial killer. There's nothing in his background that would suggest that he is a budding serial killer. And yet he emerges with, you know, this kind of excellent record and past. There is some signs of trauma, military issues, maybe PTSD. But none of these things really are typical of a serial killer other than his kind of desire, very much like Gary Ridgway, the Green River killer, to, you know, rid society of a stain in the community, sex workers. Wow. All at the same time, employing sex workers. So we know a little bit about victim one, but what about victim two, Claudine Ann? Listen. At 42 years old, Claudine Ann Luera has experience on the street. She's a mother of five and is very

careful with who she deals with on San Bernardo Boulevard. Like all the girls on the prostitution blocks, the murder of her friend Melissa Ramirez is top of mind. Luera has heard the rumors, so when a guy she knows pulls over to pick her up, she gets in. She knows David, the military guy in the white truck. As they drive down the road, Luera confronts David about the disappearance of her friend. She was getting out of the truck when he shoots her in the head. Luera was found alive, but died hours later in the hospital. The MO, the method of operation here, rings of an echo. Cheryl McCollum, sex workers being lured away from their homes or where they hang out. Here it was on the prostitution blocks. And taken out in a vehicle, having sex with the killer, and then they shoot them in the head.

This is like a recurring chorus with serial killers. Mm-hmm. You know, Gary Ridgway said it. He said that he wants to deal with sex workers because they're not going to be reported right away. And oftentimes they're not reported missing at all. So it gives the killer time not just to get away, but to maybe even go back and cover up and cover up some more. I'm thinking about something Dr. Peter Vronsky just said about a, let's just say, late bloomer, serial killer in Canada.

Dale Carson with me, high-profile defense lawyer and former fed with the FBI. Dale, the perps may not exhibit serial killer behavior. Like, you know, we say, oh, it's textbook. They tortured animals when they were little. They tore the wings off of flies. They did this. They did that. They have no empathy or sympathy for others' feelings. We knew it since he was a kid. There are killers that do not exhibit symptoms. And they are, as I just said, for lack of a better term, late bloomers. Well, you know, Wayne Williams, the Atlanta serial killer. he was a creep from day

one no he was like a garter snake with cobra venom and i can just tell you that you can play with a snake like that a lot and then if you fall into their ritual their pattern of behavior then all of a sudden you're in trouble and those kids got in the car because they fell into the pattern of behavior that he exhibited. And that's true of all these serial killers. You know, murders are not that unusual in our world. What is unusual is the motivation in each of these serial killers deviates from any kind of normal murder where there's money, sex, you know, all of those kinds of reasons for killing someone else. They don't necessarily exist in the serial killer's world. And that's what makes them so dangerous. They look harmless, generally.

And certainly Wayne Williams did. He looked harmless. Man, he really did. His parents babied him and coddled him and his whole life since birth. And then out of the blue, we find out he's a serial killer. And I mean a massive serial killer. Dr. Joni Johnson, I'm just thinking about something Dale Carson just said as far as motive for serial killers. I always think of them as being like sharks. Does a shark mean to eat everything in its path, including inanimate objects? No.

It's an instinct. I don't know that serial killers really have a motivation. Well, I think it's complicated. I mean, obviously serial killers, we think of sexually motivated serial killers oftentimes because those are the ones that get most of the media attention. But I think there are serial killers who, you know, espouse certain motives. Now, whether these are motives or rationalizations, I think is open. So, for example, in this Ortiz case, he used prostitutes, as you pointed out.

And then yet he says part of his motive is ridding the streets of this, quote, film. After he has sex with them. Exactly. I mean, it makes no sense whatsoever so that i think boils down to your question is this really a motive or is this an excuse or rationalization again not that i care about the motive this is dale carson i i just tell you you know what we've got to begin to do is read the actions and not the words of these perpetrators what they say often has no relevance whatsoever to what's driving them and what's causing them to behave and as socially like this. You're right, Dale Carson. Of course,

state doesn't have to prove motive. It's nice to be able to give it to a jury because they wonder why, but you don't have to prove that. That's not an element that must be proven in a court of law. And speaking of the last two victims, we finished off with Claudine and Luera. Well, that's not the end of it. Listen. On the night of September 14th, Erica Pena was picked up by a man she didn't know in a white truck. As a working girl, Pena became concerned with some of the things the man was saying. Pena says the man talked about Melissa Ramirez, sex worker who was murdered and her body found on the outskirts of Laredo the previous week.

The man told Pena he was the next to last person to have sex with Ramirez and he told her he was worried investigators would find his DNA on the body. At 31, Erica Pena was old enough to believe he wasn't kidding

and might actually be the person murdering prostitutes in the area. When they stop at a gas station, Pena sees a state trooper pumping gas. As the man points a gun at her, Erica Pena makes a run for her life. She makes it to the trooper in time, but the man in the white truck flees. Let's take a listen to her description of that man in Hourcut 16. With Erica Pena's description of the man, the make and model of the truck, authorities were able to identify Border Patrol agent Juan David Ortiz as their suspect.

As authorities mobilized to look for Juan David Ortiz, they couldn't find him. After Peña's escape from Ortiz, officers only knew of victims Melissa Ramirez and Claudine Luera. But while they were chasing after him, they heard about a third body that had been found, later identified as 35-year-old Giselda Elisa Hernandez Cantu. Believing Ortiz will return to the home he shares with his wife and children, authorities head to his home hoping to avoid an armed confrontation. You know what's interesting, and I'm going to go back to another serial killer, Rex Heuermann, who's going to face trial in the Long Island serial killer case.

Cheryl McCollum, I recently interviewed a sex worker who went out to dinner with Rex Heuermann, and she got so freaked out by him, she didn't keep the date. I'm using that euphemistically. She said that he kept talking about the Long Island serial killing victims, like how it would be easy for someone to put them in canvas bags and wear camo and drag them out into the brush along Gilgo Beach. He relived it, telling her about it, just like this guy, the Border Patrol agent, talking about the other victims to a potential victim. Absolutely. He has got the best job. It is perfect for a cover to gain intel and also to have the ability to commit these crimes.

Nancy, he can pull these women over. He can stop an interview or interrogate them. He can pat them down. He can even quote arrest them and then let them go and then they you know have a need to give him some type of favor he can also use them as confidential informants he was set up beautifully and then when he was added to the task force then he got information before anybody else would have it to say hey if my dna is there i'm going to come up with a reason that it was yeah i had sex with her but i was not the last person with her yeah Yeah, you hear him in all of his excuses. Nancy, Peter Vronsky here. Jump in. Yeah. I wanted to say that it's not unusual in these kinds of cases with sex worker victims that the perpetrator was acquainted with the victim and

might have been a past customer or had met them, hung out with them in the donut store when they're working their track. He knows them. He's almost their friend. And then they end up dead, maybe even a year later into a relationship. This is not unusual. They don't necessarily strike the first time in an unknown victim who's a sex worker. This is part of that psychopathology. That's making a lot of sense. And following up on what we just heard and what Cheryl McCollum was telling us, take a listen at how sneaky and devious Ortiz is. Take a listen to Hour 22. During the trial, the district attorney, Alaniz, said Ortiz knew exactly what he was doing as he plotted out the killings.

Fellow investigators were trying to hunt down the killer and called the South Texas Border Intelligence Center asking for help finding a veteran sex worker, Claudine Luera. She worked San Bernardo and told others she had an idea about who was behind the killing of Melissa Ramirez. The next day, Luera was murdered. Alanace asked the jury, did Ortiz, who was on duty that day, hear about the call asking about Luera? Did he hunt her down and kill her before she got a chance to talk and identify Ortiz? Or was it a coincidence that she died the next day? There is no coincidence in criminal law.

She calls in and says, hey, I think I know who did it. He can be the recipient of that information, and the next day she's dead. Well, it's not a mystery anymore. Listen to this, our Cut20. Juan David Ortiz confessed to killing the four sex workers during a lengthy interview with investigators. Ortiz told the investigators he had been a customer of most of the women, but he also expressed disdain for sex workers, referring to them as trash and so dirty, and insisting he wanted to clean up the streets.

He even said, quote, the monster would come out, unquote, as he drove along a stretch of street in Laredo, frequented by women. Investigators have not ruled out the possibility that Ortiz had additional victims. I believe there will be additional victims uncovered. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are going from BTK to a Border Patrol agent now convicted as a serial killer to Oregon. You all remember when women's dead bodies were popping up and law enforcement kept saying they're not connected. They're not connected. They are connected. Listen to this. In Oregon, a month after police suggested the mysterious deaths of six women were not connected,

officials changed their announcement and said they believe at least four of the killings are connected. Kristen Smith, Bridget Webster, Charity Perry, and Ashley Real. The victims' bodies were all found in wooded and rural areas between February and May. Nine agencies took part in the investigation, leading them to a person of interest, but officials have not announced the name of the person or how they determine the deaths are connected. Guys, is a serial killer stalking Oregon? Joining me, of course, our all-star panel, but to Dr. Peter Vronsky. What do you make of it? It's entirely possible, but it's becoming more difficult for us to make these kinds of connections we used to because we no longer rely

on criminal profiling as the science we thought it was. And so now, geophorensic profiling is a little bit more reliable. We're seeing too many gaps in past psychological profiling, which is really a combination of an art and a science. It depends on how talented the particular profiler is. And so what seems obvious to many of us in the past is not as obvious now. And we're focused more on collecting DNA, scientific evidence to link cases. And so we're now hesitant just because, and by the way, we don't profile on the basis of modus operandi, but on the basis of signature. And we already have established that modus operandi changes with a serial perpetrator depending on the circumstance, but the signature

remains static. And we're now learning with years that even the signature can alter. So I understand why nobody's rushing in to make these connections until they have the evidence for it. Nancy, that's called ritualization. Go ahead, Dale Carson. That's called ritualization. And what we see is that in serial killers over time, their behavior becomes more internally complex. And that's what I meant by falling into the pattern. Once you fall into the pattern and you're wearing a red dress and you've got high heels

on, you're falling into a pattern. You don't know you're falling into a pattern, but you do. And as the individual who is the perpetrator becomes more longingly involved in the behavior, it just gets internally more complex and they have to have any's very difficult with four cases to yet find that, especially if they're in a short period, to make that clear connection that you would announce to the public, you've got a serial killer out there. What about the fact that the girlfriend of Jesse Calhoun is linked who is linked to these four deaths says he knew at least two of the victims straight out to Cheryl McCollum director of the Cold Case Research Institute and forensic expert the The girlfriend in this case, the girlfriend of a 38-year-old person that is a suspect in four of these cases, says he knew two of them.

Wow. Again, that's quite the coincidence, isn't it, Cheryl? Sure is. And you say it all the time, Nancy. If you want to know about a horse, look at his track record. Run this guy's history, and you start to see there's a fault as far back as 2003. He assaults again in 2007 with a kidnapping. And then in 2019, the assault of a police officer.

That is 16 years of violence against people. So you have to take this guy into account and his connection with those two victims. Well, not only does he have a violent past and he's connected to two of the victims, he actually got clemency from the governor in 2021. And as soon as he's out in 2021, the killings commence. Ashley Real, Bridget Webster, Charity Perry, and Kristen Smith. They're all dead. Have you looked at them?

They're physically similar to Dr. Kendall Crowns is joining me, chief medical examiner out of Tarrant County, lecturer, University of Texas, Austin, and TCU Medical School. Dr. Kendall Crowns, we've seen it over and over and over. I don't know how many thousands of autopsies you've conducted, but when you're dealing with a serial killer, I mean, Ted Bundy, many of his victims look so similar. White females, very slight in their physical characteristics. Dark hair parted down the middle. They all look very similar, as do these women.

Have you seen that in your practice, Dr. Kendall Crowns? Yeah, occasionally when dealing with cases of a similar murderer, they will choose a specific target on a routine basis. Whatever it is psychologically that drives them seems to a target, a specific one. So you will see with serial killers, multiple victims with similar characteristics killed in a similar manner. Following up on what Cheryl McCollum just said, take a listen to our Cut 26 from CrimeOnline.com. Investigators say the deaths of Kristen Smith, Charity Perry, Bridget Webster, and Ashley Reel are linked together, and sources say a person of interest is already off the streets. The person of interest, 38-year-old Jesse Lee Calhoun, is currently booked in the Snake River Correctional Institution. The Multnomah County Sheriff's Office has described Calhoun as a prolific thief and career criminal. He was serving a sentence on burglary when he was among the inmates granted clemency by former Oregon Governor Kate Brown in 2021. This was for fighting the 2020

wildfires. The clemency shaved about 12 months off his prison sentence. That sentence was set to end in July of 2022. And of course, the bodies start piling up. But we know more about his background. Take a listen to Cut 30. Jesse Lee Calhoun is experienced in the ways of the Department of Corrections. In 2019, Calhoun was charged with three counts of unauthorized use of a vehicle, one count of assaulting a public safety officer, one count of first-degree burglary. Court documents from the incident show that when SWAT arrived at Calhoun's house to arrest him on outstanding warrants, in defiance, he choked a canine and repeatedly kicked an officer. His original projected release date was in June 2022.

However, in 2021, then-Governor Kate Brown signed a commutation order providing clemency to certain prisoners who met the criteria. Calhoun was one of those prisoners and was released on July 22, 2021. Clues are now emerging about how poorly Calhoun was actually monitored by LA law enforcement. One of the women Calhoun is suspected of murdering, Ashley Real, actually had filed a domestic violence complaint against him for guess what? Strangulation. To you, Cheryl McCollum,

the same M.O. we believe was used in killing the others. Patterns, patterns, patterns. You cannot ignore them. They won't get rid of them. They're going to continue to use what they get gratification from the way they want to do it. This is so clear once you start breaking down all of these elements. What about it, Frank Falzone? Well, what I have learned, Nancy, is we all, and I mean all, have a dark side. Most of us don't want to know about it. And with these

killers, what happens is whether it's drugs, sex, whatever motivates them to open up their dark side and start living it out, the human mind was always a fascination to me, particularly with serial killers. These people get very, very dark. Their egos are huge. They know they've gotten away with it once, and it becomes a lot easier the second time, the third time. And now they're playing a game. Can they get caught? Again, I'll go back to Richard Ramirez. He made a deal with the devil and the devil was with him as his savior. And the devil would protect him from law enforcement. It was an extremely interesting case for more reasons than one. A fascinating case for a study on serial killers.

Douglas McGregor joining me, Geographic Profiler. You can find him at the GA Profiler. What do you make of this case as it relates to your specialty? I think Jesse Calhoun is a strong person of interest. Just looking at where the four women were found, he lives within 18 miles of three of them, 60 miles through the other one. Just statistically speaking, most offenders, Gary Ridgway, Ted Bundy included in that area, they dispose of bodies within 30 miles of their residence. Very few offenders go past that,

unless they are personally connected to the victim so it does make a strong argument for Jesse Calhoun just in proximity and the distance from this house also just you know the bodies is a common trait you know common victim ology they're found in wooded areas I found it along found along roads you know most bodies are disposed of along roadways. After that, you got wooded areas and water. So there's a strong argument for Calhoun. And as Cheryl mentioned, just his past record, his past behaviors. So it's a good argument,

and I think he's a strong person of interest at the time being. Well, this guy, Jesse Lee Calhoun, is headed to court. We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye, friend.