Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Sex assaulter Bill Cosby's new demand to a judge

Episode Date: August 7, 2018

Convicted sex assaulter Bill Cosby wants a judge to toss a defamation lawsuit against him because his accuser is a public figure and not a private person. The statute of limitations prevents criminal charges against Cosby for an alleged sex attack on actress Kathrine McKee in 1974, so Mckee filed the civil suit after Cosby called her a liar when he denied the accusation. Nancy Grace talks about the Cosby case with lawyer Anne Bremner, Cold Case Research Institute director Sheryl McCollum, lawyer Ashley Willcott, psychologist Caryn Stark, and RadarOnline reporter Alexis Tereszcuk. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. I'm Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph. Does it never end with this guy? Bill Cosby, convicted of sex assault, is slung up at his multi-million dollar brownstone with his private chef and all his lackeys fawning over him. He has now actually insisted the Supreme Court throw out a defamation case by a woman who claims he raped her because she has exploited her celebrity status. What? I mean, I can't, if I wasn't looking at my notes, I may not remember which one of his assault victims she is. How can she be exploiting her celebrity status? No, no, it never ends with this guy. He's been convicted by a jury of a violent sex assault,

and he's still out from behind bars living the good life. In fact, just recently, he had a party that was so loud, cops were called to tell him to quiet down. This is just wrong. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. I've tried plenty of rape cases, plenty of rape cases. And when the jury said guilty and bam, the gavel comes down, that guy goes to jail. He does not go back home to his multi-million dollar brownstone with his private chef cooking up treats for him surrounded by yes guys throwing parties that the police have to show up and quiet down why isn't he in jail and how dare he claim one of his assault victims is exploiting her celebrity status? Maybe I've got my facts wrong with me. Ann Bremner, high profile lawyer out of Seattle who is representing a Cosby victim.

Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Juvenile judge, lawyer and founder of ChildCrimeWatch.com, Ashley Wilcott, renowned New York psychologist, Karen Stark, and joining me right now, investigative reporter with RadarOnline.com, Alexis Tereszczuk. Alexis, what, do I have it backwards? I wish you did, but no, you have it exactly right. This woman, Catherine McKeee she was an actress she was actually sammy davis jr's girlfriend this is a woman who was well known on her own was

whoa whoa was well known you know what of course i know who sammy davis jr was i know that but if you strike a jury right now of a bunch of millennials, they're not even going to know what you're talking about. They're not going to know who the Rat Pack was. They have no idea. Exploiting her celebrity status because at one time, 40 years ago, she dated Sammy Davis Jr. Really? What is he saying, Alexis? Bill Cosby is saying that this woman extended her 15 minutes of fame because of him. He's saying that she gave an interview about the attacks, which I think all maybe 60 women gave interviews about Bill Cosby. She confirmed that, yes, she was one of his victims. And he says because of that, she has lost any right to sue him.

And so he's actually taking this all the way to the Supreme Court. He has a nerve. He's got a nerve that she's extending her 15 moments of fame. You know, I hardly think to Ann Bremner, high profile Seattle lawyer who's representing a Cosby attack victim. I hardly think she wants to extend her fame by saying, I was raped by Bill Cosby. Well, exactly. And the fact that he's petitioning to the U.S. Supreme Court in this kind of a basically topsy-turvy situation where he's basically saying, she's a public figure under the laws, therefore there has to be proof of actual malice. And she's a public figure because she used her quote-unquote celebrity status based on her affiliation, so to speak, with him and what she said publicly.

I mean, it's just outrageous. And also, we know that because we have saw a lot of victims get around the statute of limitations by using defamation as a claim because that's a more recent act, so to speak, by him. This is Kathy McKee as she describes her alleged rape at the hands of Bill Cosby. Listen. I was on the road with Sammy Davis at the time, and often we would cross paths with incoming acts or outcoming. They'd either be leaving and we'd be coming in, or we'd be leaving, closing, and they'd be coming in, and we would hook up, you know,

and sometimes go out to dinner or hang out or whatever. So this is how it happened. I was on the road with Sammy. We were probably playing the Pine Knob Theater because we used to come here and play that location, Pine Knob. And so I saw Bill. He was a friend. I had been out many occasions with groups of people with Bill to dinner. We'd run into each other in New York or something. And that's why this was so shocking and surprising when it happened to me, because we didn't have

that kind of relationship. We weren't attracted to each other like that. And there was nothing like this. It wasn't about a sexual relationship. It was just about we weren't attracted to each other like that. And there was no, nothing like this. It wasn't about a sexual relationship. It was just about friends that knew each other. And he knew Sammy very well. So I was really shocked when it happened, really. Bill had, I called him first. And he said, listen, why don't you come by and take me to a party? There was a party on a yacht that he was the guest of honor, I would imagine. And he wanted me to bring ribs. There was a rib barbecue place back in the day in Detroit. And so I said, okay, sure, I'll bring you some ribs, you know, no problem. So I arrived at the hotel, knocked on the door. He opened the door. He was wearing a robe and a hat, a cap. And I stepped in and he took the ribs out of my hand, set them down on the table, shut the door, pulled me to him, spun me around and had his way with me. very quick and very fast and it wasn't even there was nothing enjoyable or pleasant about it shall

we say i was shocked because i had known him for such a long time and we had a friendly friendship relationship and uh it stunned me and it happened quick fast uh bada boom b, bada-bing, over and out. I pulled myself together, went into the powder room, you know, straightened myself up, and Bill went and got dressed, came back out and joined me, and we left. Come on, let's go. We left. We went to get in the car and go to this party, which I was driving him, because that's why I had come there, was to pick him up. So that's what happened, the actual event. After this had happened with Bill, he became like a different person. This was not the same Bill Cosby that I had known all the years. It was like a different person emerged, a different personality. So the whole evening was from that point on, once he took me and had his way with me,

his attitude changed up. He got really moody and really dark. And he barely spoke two words to me the rest of the evening. And we went on this yacht where all these people were. So I went and mingled with the people. I got away from Bill. And as the evening went on, all I could do was just couldn't wait for this boat to dock so I could get off and get in my car and get the heck out of there.

That's all I wanted to do was get away because it was clear that once, it was as if Bill had morphed into another person, an ugly person, and it was just a very uncomfortable situation. I didn't tell Sammy about it. I didn't figure that it was anything that Sammy needed to know. He had a lot of his own personal problems and he had to do his shows and he had to deal with all kinds of other stuff going on in his life. And I really didn't tell anybody. Except I have a couple of girlfriends in Los Angeles that I shared it with. But I, you know, it was very embarrassing what happened and how he took advantage of me like that. And I always like to feel that I'm in control and I have the power and I'm a strong

woman. And so I didn't really find being a victim an interesting tale to tell to anybody. He is known as America's dad, but funny guy, Bill Cosby, the target of police investigations, prosecutions. But now he is the one claiming it's all the victim's fault. You were hearing Kathy McKee as she described her alleged rape at the hands of Bill Cosby. Ann Bremner, high profile Seattle lawyer representing a Cosby victim. It's the same story over and over and over. He shows up in his house robe and bam, the next thing you know, the victim has been attacked. Well, absolutely. And we have to think that there's a number of victims out there, including my client, that have not said anything publicly and have a statute of

limitations issue unless they come into the arena with a defamation case, because we know every time there's a lawsuit or public statement, his lawyers and he strike back. And that's how these cases are invited. But they're all identical, Nancy. You know, bathrobe is either his house or someone else. He's giving them promises of fame and fortune. He drugs them. You know, the only thing different in my case is that he dumped my client out in a terrible neighborhood and also offered to be a graduation speaker at her college and gave her money. But, you know, she was an aspiring model. She was young. She trusted him. He was America's dad. It's just the same story over and over again. Now, explain to me, Alexis Therese Chuck, investigative reporter with RadarOnline.com,

exactly what this most recent legal maneuver by Bill Cosby is. To me, it's just another way to delay him going to jail. This is a case that is separate from his criminal case. And he is scheduled to be sentenced in September. But the thing is, unlike everybody else, and you're the lawyer, I don't know, I find that the cases that I've covered, people get convicted of rape, they go right to jail. Not Bill Cosby. The judge said, oh, you can wait 90 days before I'm going to sentence you.

So he is not in jail. What he's doing, he has filed with the Supreme Court. He has asked the Supreme Court to throw out this woman's case. It has made it all the way to the Supreme Court. He's asking them to consider it, asking them to throw it out because she persists. She's not giving up. Every time he comes back with his high-power lawyers to try to shut her case down, she still fights back because she wants justice. She wants him to stop saying these bad things about her, to say that she's extending her fame because she is she feels that she's justified in her case.

He's a convicted rapist and she wants him to stop talking badly about her and she wants him to admit what he's done. But he's using his attorneys to go all the way to the Supreme Court, the United States Supreme Court, where there are so many cases that are so important across the nation. And he is saying that she's using her celebrity to attack him. Well, she's no longer a celebrity. I don't know that she would be described as a celebrity even at the time when she was dating Sammy Davis Jr. To Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute, I'm going to you because her sex assault case allegedly at the hands of Bill Cosby would be a cold case. She says Cosby attacked her in a Michigan hotel room in the 70s. She told her story to the New York Daily News in 2014. She then files a defamation lawsuit against Cosby.

Defamation is either libel, which is a written lie about you, or slander, which is an oral when you just speak the lie about someone. And so she says Cosby defamed her by calling her a liar. Okay. Now Cosby is demanding the case be dismissed because she was exploiting her celebrity status. I don't know if that's even a reason to have a case dismissed, but she's missed her statute of limitations. She cannot prosecute him for rape now, but by him calling her a liar, she can go after him for defamation. Absolutely. Nancy, Mr. Cosby is worried about the wrong thing. First of all, maybe the first 30 victims were trying to get some celebrities, but now you're pulling the oldest defense in the book. Let's blame the victim. Okay, maybe next you'll pull out, you know,

she wanted it or she asked for it by the way she was dressed or she wanted me so bad she came to my hotel room. Really? This is what you're talking about? Let me tell you something. Whatever happened in that hotel room, here's what's key to me. She knows what hotel room. She knows what date and time Bill Cosby was at a certain location. How would she possibly know that? Pretty good memory. And not only that, the other details.

And to you, Ashley Wilcott, founder of ChildCrimeWatch.com, judge and lawyer. Ashley, when you are corroborating somebody's testimony, okay, and you don't have semen, you don't have a quote blue dress like Monica Lewinsky had, you don't have a beating with bruises and cuts and eyewitnesses and DNA, you corroborate any way you can. Like Cheryl McCollum is saying, for instance, she had the date correct. She had the location correct. That hotel, that event, that barbecue dinner, why she was in the hotel room, that he came to the door in a house robe. That's what all the victims say. That his MO was the same as it has been with all these other people.

And to me, that corroborates her story to a large degree, Ashley. It does because the details. But the other important piece to note is she has spoken about the incident more than once, and she has been consistent with all of those details. And that is a telltale sign that she's being honest and truthful and not forgetting what she's lied about. It's exactly what happened. And she's been consistent in telling that story. Nancy, can I just say one more thing about the attorneys for Bill Cosby? Here's what they're trying to do. The reason they're trying to say it's her fame.

They want to depict her as a public figure. And here's why. If you look at the body of case law out there that have been decided by courts, it generally says or indicates that public figures have a harder time winning defamation cases because often courts view it, view those who are public figures as having voluntarily accepted a higher risk. And so they therefore, it's harder for them to win defamation because they put themselves out there. I don't agree with it in this case at all, but that's exactly why his lawyers are trying to hang their hat on, oh, she's a public figure, which she no longer is, by the way. Take a listen again to what Kathy McKee says happened to her in a hotel room alone with Bill Cosby. So I arrived at the hotel, knocked on the door. He opened the door. He was wearing a robe and a hat, a cap. And I stepped in and he took the ribs out of my hand, set them down on the table, shut the door, pulled me to him, spun me around and had his way with me. Um, and it was very quick and very fast. And it

wasn't even, there was nothing enjoyable or pleasant about it. Shall we say I was shocked because I had known him for such a long time and we had a friendly friendship relationship and it stunned me and it happened quick fast bada-boom bada-bing over and out I pulled myself together went into the powder room you know straighten myself up and Bill went and got, came back out and joined me, and we left. Come on, let's go. We left. We went to get in the car. You know what? It is so hard to work cold cases. I know. I have worked them myself, especially when you know your co-workers and colleagues have already worked the case.

But there's a former prosecutor named Kelly Siegler who is a true champion for justice and she is on a mission across America. What I love about Oxygen's cold justice program is that Kelly and her team of detectives take on real unsolved murder cases and get real answers for victims and their families. You will love how immersive this show is. You feel like you're right there with the team riding shotgun. They are passionate crusaders for justice, and I like that. That's what makes each case so personal to this team. Watch the new season of Cold Justice Saturday, 6 p.m. Eastern, 5 Central on Oxygen.

Disgraced comedian, America's dad, so-called America's dad, Bill Cosby, he just never stops. Now he is demanding the Supreme Court throw out a defamation case filed by a woman who says he raped her. He, Cosby, is claiming she, the alleged victim, is exploiting her celebrity status. I guess the next thing, he's going to claim the same thing about Janice Dickinson. Everybody knows Janice Dickinson. She's had reality shows. Before that, she was America's's first quote, supermodel. Listen, I remember being humiliated, disgusted. I was I had revulsion towards Cosby and Cosby was

a very powerful man and probably still is. You know, I trusted this man and I stuffed it. I compartmentalized it because I was embarrassed. And at what point did you find yourself alone with Mr. Cosby? You trusted him, but then things went in a different direction, in your view. Mr. Gardner, Stu Gardner, left the dinner table. I was alone with him. And I had menstrual cramps. I had menstrual, you know, stomach cramps. He said, oh, I've got something for that.

And he gave me a pill. Did you ask what it was? I don't remember that. I don't remember. But if he's giving me a pill, I trust the guy. I trusted Bill Cosby. So he gave me. Why did you feel like you trusted him? Because of his demeanor and the promise of a career.

And, you know, I trusted him. I wanted a television career. I always had a... I had had a successful career. For commercials, I wanted to take it to the next level. And at the same time, though, you were telling me you're in rehab. You were still very fragile. He offered you wine. That was a no-no in your view. But now he offers you a pill and you still trust him. It was red wine. It was a pill.

And then when I started to black out, I had a Polaroid camera on me. That's when I took several photographs with a Polaroid when I had one of the a Polaroid, when I had one of the first Polaroid cameras. And, you know, I just remembered shooting these pictures and having them on me in my room the next morning when I woke up. The last thing I remember, I blacked out and Cosby mounting me like the monster that he was. And I was thinking, what the heck? What the? And I just remember passing up, but I remember more specifically waking up and that he, there was a lot of pain in downstairs. There was semen all over me, and my pajamas' bottoms were off, and the top was open.

And I, at that point, fight or flight, I just packed up, and I got the hell out of there. What do you want from Bill Cosby right now? What do you need to hear from him? What does he need to do? I would like Cosby to come out and at least acknowledge that he is a pig, that he is a monster, and he has raped me. Thank you, Janice Dickinson.

Thank you, Ms. Frederick. Thank you so much. Thank you, CNN. All right. Thank you. I know it's time. I'm sorry. I don't know how to process this.

I do not know how to process these emotions. You know, I don't. I don't. I'm going to meditate. I'm going to go to church. I do not know. This is affecting me in my house. It's affecting me. And it has really affected these women.

To Alexis Tereschuk, investigative reporter, RadarOnline.com, Janice Dickinson's report, her account of what happened, like so many other of his victims now, allegedly 60. She's a supermodel. Is that the next claim to try to silence her as well, Alexis? Absolutely. Bill Cosby has been fighting Janice Dickinson from day one, saying that she is defaming him, but she is not backing down.

None of these women are backing down. That's the great thing. They are all so empowered by his guilty verdict. And maybe even if he had been found not guilty, they would still be fighting. Captain McKee, Janice Dixon, they are not letting Bill Cosby win. He can take this all the way to the Supreme Court.

They don't care. They're going to fight back against him because they feel like the mask is off and everybody knows what Bill Cosby is, that he's a predator rapist. He did this for decades, like half a century, 50 years. And they want justice and they're not going to be bullied by him anymore or his attorneys. And so they're

going to go all the way to the Supreme Court and fight and say, you know, he is saying that I'm using my 15 minutes of fame. I'm not. I'm just trying to get justice. And I want him to stop maligning my character. You know, to Cheryl McCollum, I'm trying to determine what's the holdup in him going to jail right now. Again, I've never seen somebody get convicted of rape and then walk out of the courtroom back to their home. How did that happen and what's going to happen next, if anything? If anything, it's because of his celebrity. He's going to give, you know, time to get his affairs in order before he goes to prison. But Nancy, I just want to say one thing. It ain't slander

if it's true. These women are not backing down because they're telling the truth. Okay. To you, Ashley Wilcott, weigh in. I absolutely agree. And I think at some point, all of these lawsuits that Bill Cosby insists on continuing becomes a blah, blah, blah. We've heard what he says, but it's far outweighed by the many, many victims and what they've had to say. To Alexis Tereszczuk, the same issue is happening with Janice Dickinson. She is suing him now. Of course, the statute of limitations on rape has long passed,

but she also was suing him because he said she, quote, fabricated her rape story. So it's the same thing. He's using his pit bull lawyers to attack her. Even though she claims she was drugged and raped by Cosby, he calls her a liar. Now she's suing him for defamation. She is, and she's been pretty successful so far.

Her case is still being heard, but he's attacking her. He's trying to attack her the same way he physically attacked her all those years ago, allegedly. He is attacking to attack her the same way he physically attacked her all those years ago. Allegedly, he is attacking her now through the court system. And he's trying to say, you know, she wrote a book, Janice did, and she didn't mention the rape. And she says, now, look, I was trying to write a book that was entertaining. Yes, it was an autobiography, but it had to have some juicy parts to it. And she said, I had to cover it up. My lawyers, the lawyers in the publishing house wouldn't let me do it back then. But now I am not backing down. And he is saying, she's lying. She's making this up. She's slandering.

So Karen Stark, New York psychologist, in my mind, this is just another way to silence rape victims. It's another way to silence them. He's just trying to use his celebrity and the way that he used his celebrity to entice these women. Now he's claiming he's turning the whole thing around and saying they're using their celebrity to try and trap him. I also want to mention, Nancy, that it's very telling in each story that they don't come forward. And I wanted to explain that the reason that they don't come forward. And I wanted to explain that the reason that they don't come forward at the time is shame, embarrassment and shock. And that is not unusual.

It's such a devastating attack on their well-being, on their personhood, that they just don't feel good enough to be able to report it, especially a famous man like this. You know, Cheryl McCollum, another tactic he's using to try to stay out of jail, he is now challenging the sex predator law. He, of course, has been recommended by the state in sentencing to be treated as a sex offender. And it's under statute when you are treated as a, quote, classified sex offender, that means your sentence is going to be different.

You've got to receive sex offender counseling. You'll be classified differently when you're sentenced. He is now claiming that the sex predator classification is unconstitutional he's a piece of work nancy he doesn't want to have to when he does get out you know report where he lives and he doesn't want to be restricted that he can't live near a park and all that sort of stuff he's full of crap period and what he's doing with these women to me is he's using the court system to intimidate a period. And what he's doing with these women, to me, is he's using the court system to intimidate a witness. That's what he's doing, plain and simple. He is claiming, Ashley Wilcott, that the state's revised sex offender registry law is unconstitutional

and should not apply to him. He's different. He's special. Well, yeah, that's the problem, right? So there have been other challenges to state sex predator reports where you have to be reported as one. But that's not this case. This case, he's doing everything he can. He's bullying. He's bullying to say, I'm right. Everybody else is wrong. And I'm going to spend as much money as I have to to try to allege every single thing I can to get out of this.

Take a listen again to supermodel Janice Dickinson. I can't breathe because of Bill Cosby. What do you mean? I can't breathe because I haven't slept in weeks. And, you know, I just, you know, with everything that's going on, I haven't been able to breathe like the whole nation is doing right now, protesting. I am protesting because of the unresolved issues due to rape from Bill Cosby. I'm just starting to exhale and and i will say this i you know i i sobbed all weekend not just for me

for what's going on with these other women that's janice dickinson who spoke to me and described cosby's attack on her how it still affects her life to this day once Once again, she's under attack by Cosby, claiming that he did not defame her. Now he's challenging the court's decision to classify him as a sexually violent predator. What, 60 women victims, allegedly not enough. We'll see where it goes. But you know, when you don't know a horse, look at his track record. We don't know where the case is going. Look where it's gone. He's still walking free. What does that say about our justice system and the judge who let him remain on bond? Take a listen to this. I went up to his hotel and I was alone. He talked about, let me see what type of acting skills you have. I want you to improv. And as I tried to do improv, he fixed a drink, and then he brought it to me.

It was a brown liquid, and it looked like a shot. I told him I didn't drink. He said that this was going to relax me so that the lines would flow out a lot easier. So I did drink it. He made a second drink and had me drink the second drink as well. I noticed myself getting a little dizzy. Bill had sat down on the edge of the couch. He said come over here

and have a seat. He had his legs open and when I sat down I was sitting down in between his legs with my back to his crotch. He started to stroke my hair back in a petting motion like this. The last things I remember is just feeling the strokes on my head. After that, I don't remember anything else. People think, Carla, oh, this Andrea Constance, she was out for money. Or this one, she was like, what was she, a model or an actress. That's all like a witch in the time of the Salem witch hunts.

But when people put a face to a name of somebody they kind of know, it changes everything. I just want to kick it off like this. When did you meet Bill Cosby? Well, it was 1967. I was 18 years old. Don't do the math. But I was on a date with someone who asked me to dinner,

who seemed like a very nice man in the show business. It was in the music business, actually. And he asked me to dinner. And he said, we went to dinner who seemed like a very nice man in the show business. It was in the music business, actually. And he asked me to dinner. I went and he said, we went to dinner. We had a lovely evening. And then he said, would you like to go with me to my best friend's house, which is Bill Cosby? And I didn't have anything to do. I'd broken up with my boyfriend. I didn't have to worry about where I was going or whatever. And I said, well, okay, yeah with my boyfriend. I didn't have to worry about where I was going or whatever. And I said, well, okay, yeah, all right. I didn't know. I knew Bill Cosby had a show. I never watched the show. I knew nothing really about him at all. And I certainly didn't go there because he was a celebrity. I went because I was having a nice time with my date. So he took me over to his house in Beverly Hills. And Bill was so nice. He answered

the door. Him and his wife stood right by the door. Camille, I'll never forget her name. And we were standing by the door just talking. We were introduced. And he said, let's go to a movie. What do you think? So I said, okay. It sounded like fun to me. I was 18 years old. I just wanted to have fun. So I went to the movies with them. It was my date, Bill, Camille, and I. And we had Cracker Jacks, and we laughed, and he played. and he acted like he was playing with a child with me. I did not sit. I sat down, and he sat next to me on the far left. My date was next to me, and his wife was way on the other end.

But we had a really fun time. And then he decided, you know, the movie was over. We were in Westwood, the movie was over. We were in Westwood. The movie was over. And he said, my date said to me, would you like to go back to Bill's and play pool? I was the pool bunny at the Playboy Club at 18. Can you believe this? No.

Yeah. Yeah. So I said, oh, okay. I thought, well, okay, we'll do that. I mean, they all seem so nice. Why wouldn't I want to do this? So I said, okay, I will. So we went to his house, and the first thing he did was he walked in. He took me into the pool. We all went to the pool room, and he said to me, would you like a cocktail? And I said, no, I don't drink. And he said, okay, well, would you like some water? And I said, no, I'm just fine. And so that's how I met him. Yeah.

Do you want to hear some more about what happened that night? Yes. Well, I just, I played, what he did, Bill had this idea that it would be fun if he played with my date, and then whoever won could play with me. And we're getting on around 11, 12. What was the game? The game was, it was just a game of pool. Okay, all right. Yeah, we were playing pool.

And so he played first with my date. And then guess who won? Bill won. And he said, okay, well, now I play with Carla. Now it's getting on to be around midnight. It's getting late. And I picked up the pool cue, and I'm playing. And suddenly I looked up, and I said, where did your wife go? And he goes, oh, she probably went to bed. I said, where, where did your wife go? And he goes, oh, I, she probably went to bed.

I said, oh, okay. And then I, then I play, I shot another thing and I'm doing good at this game. And then I look up and I go, well, where's my date? And he goes, oh, I don't know. He probably went to the bathroom or something. And so we played the game. We did it. He beat me. And I took my, my, my, my pool cue and my back was to him. And I turned around and I put it on the table. And when I turned back around, he lunched me. He just lunched right, I mean, just on me. He jumped me. And I was in shock. And I, I pushed him, like with all the strength I had, I tried and then he grabbed me. And he kissed me right in the mouth. And I, I just I kicked I pushed away from him. And I got away from and I was like, Oh, and I mean, it was it was so awful. And then I looked up and those eyes those eyes, he looked like the devil.

He didn't look like the fun, happy guy anymore. He looked like the devil. And I said, for a second, I sat there for a second, and I looked at him. And I was a tough girl. I grew up, but in those days, I was a tough street girl. I knew how to take care of myself, and men were always trying to molest me my whole life, ever since I was like five years old. So, and I always got away. So, I took, I started running down the hallway. He lived in a very large house on the flats of Beverly Hills, and I went running down the hallway. And just as I'm running down the hallway, who comes out of the door?

My date. So I looked at my date and I said, I'm leaving. I want you to take me home now, right now. And he did. And I never even talked to him about it. I just went completely silent, got in the car. He took me and dropped me off, and that was that. So that was my experience.

And I got away, and out of the supposedly 65 women that have come forward, or I don't know how many, I think it was that, but I just got away. There was no way. And the reason I got away was because I didn't drink anything. It was one of the main reasons that I made it through this. You know, when you say that the reason you got away is because you didn't drink anything, what do you mean by that, Carla? What I meant by that was that I didn't drink alcohol.

I came from a family of alcoholics, and I didn't live like that. I wouldn't drink. I wouldn't do drugs. I was totally clean. I didn't have sex with men. I was a young girl, but tough, and I could take care of myself. And he didn't give me anything that would have done what I've heard happened with these other women.

I mean, I was on Dateline with 27 women for eight hours, and all of us crying our hearts out. Just their stories were so tragic, and it ruined so many lives. And I was the one who got away. I don't think anybody else got away. Even Beverly Johnson, she had to fight him off because he had given her drugs. You know what's interesting? That Camille was there, and you know what?

God bless her. I don't know what to think about that. I don't feel like that about her at all. God bless her, I don't. I don't know what to think, but this is what I'm hearing from you. She's down there and just disappears. When you have guests over, even if you're saying, look, guys, you're staying up too late for me. I'm going to go to bed. Good night. Thank you for coming.

She just disappeared, like your date. That's right. Right. And you know what was really, really tragic was that when I was on Dateline, that woman that was the host, I don't even remember who she was, but I'd never seen her before and I haven't seen her since. But anyway, she would not let me talk. Out of all the women, I got to sit in the front row, but I wasn't allowed to talk. She would not listen to anything I said. So by the end of the show, after eight hours, we were all exhausted. And I said to her, I said, I'm going to talk. She said, what do you think about, as she asked the whole group, what do you think about his wife? And I raised my hand and I said, I'm going to talk now. I said, I'm going to ask a question. That's all I want to do is ask one question. The question is to everybody, how many of you would let your husband stay at midnight with a young, pretty girl? And every one of them said, none of us. I mean, they were all like, no, we wouldn't.

No, it caused a whole big stir. But it was true. You're right, Carla. You wouldn't. No, it caused a whole big stir. But it was true. You're right. I hadn't thought of it that way. I've just been thinking about her in the context of, wow, she's been married to this guy that has had so many affairs, slept with so many people. And now we learn forced himself on so many people. And it must be horrible and humiliating. But when I hear you say it like that, it puts it in a whole other light.

Nancy, listen to this one. Here's what I was thinking of. I was thinking, I was trying to think back on the women, and one in particular that I liked so much, and she and I spent some time together. She was a young, beautiful model. And she was, you know, you may have known who she was or who I didn't. But when I met her, it was a lovely time because she, I was trying to think of what it would have been like to be her. He called her on a Christmas, at Christmas, and said, can you fly here to Connecticut to be with my family for Christmas and me?

And she gets there, and she's at the dinner table with all of his children and his wife, and then she would go out to the guest room where she was staying. She had a different little place in the back. And apparently he was coming back there like two nights in a row to have sex with her and raping her. Now, can you imagine? She's invited as a guest? I mean, after the first time, I don't know why she was still there.

You're talking about Sarita Butterfield. She was a playmate, a model, and she recounted how Cosby invited her to his country house, and she's in the guest house, yards from his wife, and she kept saying, your family is here, don't do this, your family is here. Yep. And what was his wife doing what was she thinking she's not he's not in bed with her he's not where is he at it may too could have been 12 1 2 whatever but he wasn't there so wasn't she thinking of anything like this like and what was that girl 22 at the time right what was she doing i mean really think about and what was that girl doing? She was just 22 at the time. Right. What

was she doing? I mean, really think about it. What was she doing there except that Bill brought her there to, to abuse her? And what did the family think she was doing there? I mean, what did his wife think? She, she knew. That's why. Because she knew what he was doing. And it was all, she just went along with it. I don't know if it was the lifestyle. I don't know if it was her, maybe it was the way she grew up. Maybe she was molested and didn't think much of it. I don't know.

But something, there was, all I know they, she knew everything that was going on. Listen, I've been married 38 years. I know what my husband does all the time. I make sure I know. Carla, what took you so long to tell your husband what happened? Well, you know what? I never told my husband a lot of things. I didn't tell my husband or my mother or my sisters or anybody else when the people since I was five tried to molest me. I was on a train. A man, he was one of the conductors or whatever he was on that train.

I mean, he tried to put his hands in my panties when I was asleep on the train. And I knew, I knew my mother. Oh, at five years old, I knew my mother. My mother would have killed him. And I never told her ever in her life did I tell her that story. I knew that if I told him her, like I kept turning over and moving and making sure that he didn't get close to me and he finally went away. But I knew that if I told my mother, she would kill him. She was a violent woman. She was tough and hard as nails. And I knew she would kill him. What took you so long to tell Lou? This, you know, it's not uncommon. In fact, it's very common. Sometimes

sex attack victims never tell. They don't want to talk about it. I didn't want to. You know what? With me, it was so many people this happened with that I had no desire to talk about it.

There was nothing I wanted to say so I let it go. The truth is I desire to talk about it. There was nothing I wanted to say, so I let it go. You know, the truth is I never even thought about it all through those years except when I met Lou and we went to some events, and I saw him come in at one of the celebrity events, and I just said, I want to stay on the other side of the room. That's the only thing I said, and that was probably in 80. And I never told anybody yet. I didn't tell that story until 19, it was 19, no, it was 2005 was

when I finally told. And that was because I saw that Bill Cosby had done this with this girl, and it's this one, I think it is, too. The one that, yeah, it is, it's her, that when it came out, and then she got money from him, he gave her money for it, and that's when he said that, oh, I remember with all the stuff that went on. I didn't tell anything to anybody until I told Lou. And I said to him, I told him, and he looked at me. And he just went, uh-huh. And he walked away. He cannot stand to hear anything bad about me.

I've got to tell you something. I can't quite verbalize it, but crime victims, violent crime victims, sex crime victims can go their whole life and never tell anybody what happened. You don't want to think about it. It's so upsetting. You don't want to rethink the details. You want to forget it. You want to forget it. You want to pretend it never happened. It's painful.

It's upsetting. And when you think about it and have to talk about it, it's like it's happened all over again. And it can mess your head up for who knows how long and throw you into a depression that you can't get out of and i know what i'm talking about on this oh i know i know you do and i really can't describe it and people like jurors um defense lawyers other people that are not in the business or have not been a victim or a sex molestation victim. It does. I get it. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense that you don't talk about it or tell anybody about it. But it's embarrassing. It's such a personal thing.

It's just just don't want to talk about it. No, I never I never wanted to. There was nothing to talk about it. No. I never wanted to. There was nothing to talk about. And then as the years went by and all this stuff happened to me over and over with different men and places I worked and things like that. But what got it for me was when I heard about this woman, I thought, oh, my God, I've got to tell somebody. And I told Lou. And I never told another person. Not until, what, three years ago now, when those two women came out and were crying on John and Ken's show.

They were crying their hearts out, and that's what did it for me. I said, that's it. I am going to call somebody. I have to talk about this. Lou was out of town. I'm like, I've got to talk because I've got to help these women. Because I knew right that second that what I was hearing from them, nobody would ever believe it. Carla, you know what's upsetting with me is Carla Ferrigno, who was, I think, one of the early on victims of Bill Cosby

you know what it's so disheartening about this this with Andrew Konstat may be the only criminal prosecution that will ever be because so much time has passed and if it doesn't happen now

it will never happen and he will go free it's just that now it will never happen and he will go free it's just that simple it's heartbreaking you know what this is what i'm praying for tonight i am praying for a true verdict a verdict that speaks the truth whether they give him jail time whether god forbid they give him probation whether his wife ever knows the truth or admits the truth. I want a verdict that speaks the truth to give peace to all the women that I believe were victims of Bill Cosby. That's what I'm praying for.

Carla Ferrigno. Thank you. We are watching as this unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.