Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Sex-Starved Mom Murders 2 Tots to 'Catch a Man'

Episode Date: August 23, 2021

Susan Smith spends nine days pleading for help in locating her two sons. She claims that on the night her sons disappeared, a black male approached her at a stoplight, forced her out of her red Mazda Protégé, stole her car, and drove away with her two sons still inside the vehicle. As the investigation progresses, 23-year-old Smith admits to driving her car into a lake with her two young sons strapped in their car seats. Murder Moms, all this week on Crime Stories!Joining Nancy Grace today: Mathew Mangino - Criminal Defense Attorney, Former District Attorney, Former Pennsylvania Board of Probation and Parole Board Member, Author: "The Executioner's Toll, McFarland and Company, MattMangino.com, @MatthewTMangino Dr. Jorey Krawczyn] - Police Psychologist, Adjunct Faculty with Saint Leo University; Research Consultant with Blue Wall Institute, Author: Operation S.O.S. - Practical Recommendations to Help “Stop Officer Suicide”  bw-institute.com Dr. Tim Gallagher - Medical Examiner, State of Florida, www.pathcaremed.com Dan Scott - Former Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Sergeant, 26 years with Special Victims Bureau Specializing in Child Abuse Kristy Mazurek - Emmy Award-winning Investigative Reporter, President of Successful Strategies PR and Crisis Communications Firm Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What a horrific scenario. Every parent's worst nightmare come true. Two little boys, one just 14 months old, one three years old, carjacked and kidnapped. That is the scene that unfolds on a rural road. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. kids in it and he took off and she got out of the car here at our house and he's got the kids yes ma'am in her car i don't she's real hysterical and i just decided i need to call the law get

them down here and the car is we need to know something we're trying to ask her now a mazda protege what color was it a burgundy mazda protege get him. They've got two kids. Okay. Get them going, Pam. They've got two kids. You hear that from the 911 dispatch. Take a listen to more. Union 105. 105, go ahead. Said it was a black male driving a burgundy protege. Affirmative, 105.

And he had two juveniles with him. 105, from what I understood, these were small children. These are her children, and she jumped out of the car, and he took the car with the children, and he's headed toward Chester. Union, 100. 100, go ahead. Are the victim and the suspect in this call the same family? 100, from what I gathered by the call, they are not.

This is a stranger that had jumped in the lady's car at a red light, and she jumped out. Simple. Wow. Let me introduce you to an all-star panel to make sense of the situation. First of all, Matthew Mangino, veteran trial lawyer, former district attorney, also former Pennsylvania Board of Pardon and Parole member, author of The Executioner's Toll. Wow. Matthew Mangino joining me, and you can find him at Matthew T. Mangino or mattmangino.com.

Dr. Jory Croson, police psychologist, author of Operation SOS, Practical Recommendations to Help Stop Officer Suicide. Dr. Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner for the entire state of Florida. And you can find Dr. Gallagher, or Dr. G as he is called, at PathCareMed.com. Dan Scott, former L.A. County Sheriff Sergeant Sergeant, 26 years with Special Victims Bureau and Christie Mazurk Emmy Award winning investigative reporter and now president of Successful Strategies PR and Crisis Communications Firm. Speaking of a crisis, the reality when you look at this to Dr. Jory Croson, police psychologist, it is statistically very rare for not a carjacking to happen. That happens all the time.

But a carjacking to happen with two children inside. Once in a great while, you hear about a baby asleep in the back. But not two children in car seats because that would be very obvious, I would think, right? Yes. And carjacking wasn't even a term. This first came out as a kidnapping. The car just was kind of a secondary thing. And then carjacking developed out of this. Yeah. You know what? You're right. Let me follow up on that to Dan Scott, former L.A. County Sheriff Sergeant, 26 years Special Victims Bureau. Dan Scott, I mean, statistically, when you get a carjack, and I've prosecuted many, many carjacks,

they can happen almost anywhere at a red light. They can happen at a stop sign. I would say in a rural area, it's less likely because just think about it. You're in a rural area. What are you going to do as the carjacker? Just wait for a car to come by. But for a carjacking to happen with two children, obviously strapped in, ah, why does the carjacker want the children? All they want is the car to chop. Definitely. They do not want children. They know it's going to draw more attention, and they know the cops are going to be after them tenfold if there's kids in the car. They want the car. They sure don't want to babysit kids. Man, you're not kidding, but Matthew Mangino, I mean, you're a former prosecutor, and now trial lawyer, veteran criminal defense attorney.

The reality is criminals very often, veteran criminal defense attorney, the reality is criminals very often, I would say majority of the time, don't think. If they're thinking, they wouldn't commit the crime to start with. So here we are trying to apply logic to the mind of a criminal. I mean, if criminals thought it through, why would they go into a bank and try to rob it? I mean, it doesn't make sense. Right. It doesn't make sense. And, you know, unfortunately, this is a crime of opportunity.

You see this car, you're going to carjack, you're going to pull the woman out. You don't realize there's children there maybe immediately, but you don't continue to drive off with them. I mean, you drive to a point where you can leave the car, leave the children safe, and get out of the car. You know, you're right, Matthew. You're right, Matthew. That's typically what happens. Because we hear about it like mom goes to a QT or something, gets gas, runs into pay, and the car gets taken. And then they find, oh, dear Lord in heaven, there's a baby in the back.

They usually pull the car over and bail. You're right, Matthew. Right. And this scenario is really, you know, every mother's nightmare. It's gut-wrenching to think that my children are in the car with a guy with a gun. You know, so this, everybody can feel the pain. Well, you're both absolutely correct. I will take the fifth on a charge that I ran in at a gas station and grabbed something and came back out. I'm not going to admit it or deny it. It may have happened once. And then I may have thought, what am I thinking?

Yes, the car is right there. Yes, I can see it. But what if some nut comes against that car? I mean, it could happen. It's not beyond the realm of possibility. I mean, the threat that somebody could take your car with your child in it. I mean, it does happen. So how does this whole thing unfold?

How does mommy get yanked out of the car and some freak takes off with her car and her two children inside? To Christy Mazurek, many people, many legal eagles, believe that mommy is yanked out of the car at a stop sign. Perp gets in and takes off. But is it correct that mommy's actually in the vehicle with the perp and drives a few minutes before she's kicked out? It is true. So it's not...

Mommy is in the car. So it's not exactly a one minute scenario. It's more like 10 minutes that mommy has a chance to look at the guy that takes her children. Take a listen to this. Please let me take them. And he said, no, he didn't have time because they were in car seats and it was going to take time for me to get him out of the car seat. And he just told me, he said, but I won't hurt him. And he just took off. But he had a gun, and my big thing is they were screaming, hollering, crying. And I'm just scared that he just lost his patience. crime stories with nancy grace

guys for those of you just joining us how do two children get carjack kidnapped and mommy kicked out of the car and here we are hearing mommy state, this was no accident. The carjacker knew the children were in the car. That's a very, very different scenario. Straight out to Matthew Mangino, a veteran trial lawyer, joining me out of Pennsylvania. Matthew, that's a different scenario. Many people, many legal eagles and analysts believe mommy was just yanked out of the car at a stop sign, and the perp takes off in the car, not realizing there are children in the car. That's not correct. She's just leaving shopping at a Walmart.

She's at a red light, which tells me there's substantially more traffic, and it's not exactly the rural area we first thought. And the person drove around for 10 minutes with mommy in the car and knows full well there are two children in the car. This is no accident. Right. It's not an accident. And if I were investigating this, my antennas would begin to go up immediately. I mean, you're going to leave your children in that vehicle? Oh, H-E-L-L, no. That is not happening, Matthew Mangino. And you're not going to plead for their release. You know, as we said a moment ago,

you know, criminals want a vehicle. They don't want two children in a vehicle. You know, you pull to the side of the road, mom, get your kids out of here before I shoot you. That's the scenario that you would think would happen. but that's not what we hear from this woman. That is not what we're hearing. And the other reality is that we have to accept carjackings have happened with children in the car, and the driver, the perp, didn't know it. But here, he's taken on not just a car, but two babies too? Does it really make sense?

Well, you know what? You cannot explain away the mind of a criminal. I mean, you're the shrink, Dr. Jory Croson. Criminals do things that don't make sense to us because we're not criminals. That's true. And one of the things that really stuck out in my mind was a kidnapper, and she described him as a black male. Looking back historically, and I even checked at the time the crime reports, and for our state of Florida, there were no blacks serving any time for

kidnapping. So there's another behavior that I thought, that's really unusual. So we got the first time, you know, of a kidnapper of this race. You know, I'm thinking through the way this whole thing unfolds, but take a listen to this. Sitting on the floor in front of Susan and David Smith at her side, her tears falling on my hand, we began the interview. This day has been pure hell for both of you i'm sure total chaos it's been it's been awful this isn't you um i don't even know what to say in here hey that's a good word i just feel like i just feel like my whole world has been taken away. I mean, my children are my life.

And they just got to be okay. There you're hearing mommy and husband David speaking. Let's take a listen to a little bit more of that. Pray most of all for them and that they are being taken care of and that they are safe and that they will return home safely i want to say to my baby that your mama loves you so much and your daddy this whole family loves you so much and you guys have got to be strong because you are, I just know, I just feel in my heart that you're okay.

But you've got to take care of each other. The search commences for the two children, Alexander Tyler and Michael Daniel. Take a listen to our friends at Crime Online. The search for the boys and the carjacker continued. Residents printed flyers and distributed photos. Searches were conducted on horseback. Both the FBI and local law enforcement followed up on the hundreds of leads that came in. On day three, a car was found.

Is this the break police needed? A car matching the description of Susan's Mazda was spotted in North Carolina, but it wasn't hers. So the car is found, but it's a different protege. Take a listen to mommy and hubby speaking to CBS this morning. Susan, how are you doing this morning? Doing okay. Very little sleep last night, but I'm okay. There was some news yesterday and some promising leads in this case. How are you coping with the disappointment of the news from yesterday?

It was, I was running around my house yesterday morning all excited. I really thought that they had really found something that was, I really thought they had found one of my children. And when I got to the courthouse and found out that the lead had disintegrated or there was nothing there, I was very devastated, very disappointed. Got my hopes up and was let down, but I haven't given up hope. That was maybe one of many disappointments, but maybe the next is going to be right. Mommy didn't stop there. Listen. On my behalf, the truth has been told.

I know right here what the truth is. I can see from their side why they have to do the things they have to do. But the Lord and myself both know the truth. I did not have anything to do with the abduction of my children. I don't think any parent could love their children any more than I do and I would never even think about ever doing anything that would harm them. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Go ahead, Susan. I was just going to say

it's very painful to have a finger pointed at you when it's your children involved. The case then takes a sudden U-turn. Take a listen to our longtime friend Bill Curtis at American Justice. Divers found the car 122 feet from the shore, upside down, under 18 feet of water. Through the murky darkness, the beam of a diver's flashlight illuminated a small hand pressed against the window. As the car was pulled from the water, the bodies of Michael and Alex were visible through the side windows. That's right. The bodies of the children were found. Here's Randall Pinkston, CBS.

Last night, Smith's car was recovered from a nearby lake. Sources say her two sons, 3-year-old Michael and 14-month-old Alex, were alive, strapped into their seats when the car sank. CBS News has learned her motive may have involved a relationship with the man who wanted her, but not her children. Today, the family of David Smith, the father of the two little boys, coped with the shock. During all the ordeal the community of Union, South Carolina provided an unprecedented amount of support for David and the family. And at the lake where they died, all day they come in solemn contemplation. Just looking at it so you can believe it. You can understand how a mother could do that to her children. To Dr. Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner for the entire

state of Florida. You can find him at pathcaremed.com. Dr. Gallagher, I'm having a hard time taking in what happened to these two little boys, one just 14 months old, one three years old. How would authorities know the two little boys were alive when they were strapped into their car seats and pushed into the lake? Well, they would know, obviously, from doing an autopsy and examining the findings. First thing we're going to have to establish is that there were no other injuries on the child, any traumatic injuries on the children from perhaps a previous attack. Once we do the autopsy, we'll be able to examine the lungs and be able to examine the contents of the lungs. For instance, microbes that are in the water, we can look at that under the microscope. And the only way those get in there is if you actively breathe them in. There

are also water in the stomach. People tend to gulp down the water and we'll find the pond water in the stomach, people tend to gulp down the water and will find the pond water in the stomach. And also in some of the air spaces behind the nose, we'll see water there. And the only way for that to get in is if you actively take a breath underwater and it fills up those cavities behind the nose. So there are several ways. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you just joining us, two little boys after a nine-day search are found drowned dead, strapped into the car seats.

The car then pushed into a lake. You know, it was the John D. Long Lake where two little boys lost their lives. So I guess the carjacker changed his mind. Take a listen to the boy's dad, David, speaking to me.

So you realized in one fell swoop that they had been killed. And Susan Smith, your wife, had done the deed at once, just like that. Just like that. What did you do?

Gave up. Gave up. I ran first. I just wanted to run, and I ran. You ran where? Just out in the yard. You ran out the door? Yeah, I had to go.

Just had to go. Where did you run to? I don't know. I just ran. I don't remember. In your the door? Yeah. And where? I just had to go. Where did you run to? I don't know. I just ran. I don't remember. In your street clothes? Yeah. I just had to go. I just had to run. And when did you come back? My dad chased after me and caught up with me finally and we walked back to the to the Russells' home. Was it at night? It was dark. Let me go to Dr. Jory Croson joining us, psychologist, faculty, St. Leo University. Dr. Croson, I have seen that many times in cases I've prosecuted and investigated where the victim family actually is a wild animal and cries and screams, and they don't really seem to have a full memory of that moment. It's as if they want to just run outside and howl at the moon out of grief.

What is that? That's the overwhelming stress. And we refer to it as a displacement activity because basically portions of your mind, memory shut down. And you just got to physically release this stressful energy that's now been dumped on you or slapped you upside the face. So, you know, the physical ability to get out and run, do some kind of movement that's going to start, you know, catching up with his heart rate, his breathing. And just like you said, his father came and chased him down and, you know, basically stopped him.

And that brings you back to reality. I'm just thinking of what David went through being confronted with the drowning deaths of his children. Dan Scott, joining me, former L.A. County Sheriff's Sergeant, 26 years with the Special Victims Bureau, specializing in children, Dan Scott, to just think that they were conscious as the car filled up with water. The last thing they likely saw was mommy or the carjacker standing by on the dock watching their car go down and you know they were screaming for mommy exactly the horror that those children went through you know you can say how long mom's been in jail and do people deserve that but these kids were i mean it's almost like torture for them to be in that car you know they count on their mom to protect them, their parents. And for them to be subjected to this is just, I mean, I've seen so many child homicides.

And I still, after all these years, can't wrap my mind around it. Guys, take a listen to the dad of these two little boys, David Smith, speaking to me. Did you go to the jail? No. No. When did you see her again? It was about a month later after she had been arrested. What did she say, David?

She said she was sorry. And we, I mean, mostly that's what we talked about was Michael and Alex. I mean, I did ask her why she did it, but. And what did she say? She didn't know. When you look back, David, do you blame yourself? Do you think there were indicators or red flags

you should have seen seen but didn't? No, I don't blame myself. I mean, Susan, you know, she was confident. She was, you know, in sound mind. It seemed to be. Yeah, I mean, you know, in some ways a lot of people want to say she had to be crazy. And I think they say that figuratively speaking. But not legally.

Right, but not legally she wasn't. Murder mom, Susan Smith. The woman who really kicked off world recognition of murder moms. She's the one. To Chrissy Mazurk, what was the alleged motive to murder in such a horrific way her two little boys? found a letter in the house written by Tom Finley, her lover, breaking off their relationship because he did not want to be involved with a mother with children. This woman, did you hear her husband say, David told me that he asked her, why did you do this? And she said, I don't know.

Well, because she's still, still playing him. She's still playing him. All the people surrounding her, including her children, are just pawns in her game. She said, I don't know why I did it. Well, this is why she did it, because she was secretly sleeping with a man who did not want children. What do we know about him? Didn't his father own a big business there in the local community? Oh yes, very prominent, very wealthy. So she saw that as her golden ticket and her manipulation continues to this day. You know, the motive, secretly dating a man who did not want children. Isn't it true, Christy Mazurik, that that is why he said he broke up with her?

Because he was not ready for a ready-made family? That is correct. In a letter. To Dr. Jory Croson, a psychologist joining us, the reality is, is that she worked at this business and started sleeping with the owner's son. That's what happened. And wanted out of her marriage so she could move up the social strata and marry the boss's son, who she perceived as being wealthy. The reality is his father was not him. So this whole thing was for naught. But is the motive money? Would the motive be social climbing? Well, what would be the motive here? Not that the state has to prove it,

but what would be the motive? Well, it could have been many things really on her part. One of them was the main thing is the children now become an obstacle to whatever her motive is, and she's got to remove them, got to get them out of the picture. You know, the motive could have been just her narcissistic tendencies to want to have a life of luxury and money to, you know, build her own self-esteem and stuff up that she's lacking. Motive here is really difficult to kind of establish, but you can see from her personality that, you know, it all centered around her, again, victimizing them. And the children, like I said, become an obstacle, and she just removes them. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Pray most of all for them and that they are being taken care of and that they are safe and that they will return home safely. I want to say to my baby that your mama loves you so much, and your daddy and these whole families love you so much. And you guys have got to be strong because you are. I just know, I just feel in my heart that you're okay, that you've got to take care of each other. That is

Susan Smith, Murder Mom, speaking for those of you just joining us. I just know in my heart you're alright. You just have to be strong for each other. No, she knew in her heart she had strapped her children into the car in their child seats and pushed the car

into the lake. They're dead, Susan Smith, While you're saying all this, listen to Susan Smith. Please let me take them. And he said, no, he didn't have time because they were in car seats and it was going to take time for me to get him out of the car seat. And he just told me, he said, but I won't hurt him. And he just took off. But he had a gun, and my big thing is they were screaming, hollering, crying, and I'm just scared that he just lost his patience or something. Mm-hmm. It's not some carjacker that lost their patience.

It was murder mom Susan Smith who wanted a different life. But the reality is to Matthew Mangino, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor joining us out of Pennsylvania, this isn't the first time Susan Smith did a little social climbing. During an earlier summer, she had a job at the local Winn-Dixie grocery store. She moved very quickly up the ranks as from cashier to bookkeeper. Now, this is her senior year of high school. She slept with three different guys, and one of them was a married older man who worked at the store. The other, a younger co-worker. My point is, this ain't her first time at the rodeo, dating or sleeping with a guy that would help her move up the ranks at work?

She's a master manipulator. I mean, she's been manipulative in her work. She's been manipulative with the owner's son of the business she worked for. And, you know, she manipulated her husband, you know, throughout their relationship. So this is something that she does and she does it well. Man, she's playing so many different guys, including her own husband, not wanting to work in the same place as her husband. She takes a job as a bookkeeper and the largest employer in the area. It's called Conso Products. She was promoted to executive secretary, and she worked directly for the CEO, J. Carey Finley, and, of course, started dating his son.

That's how that works out. Chrissy Mazurek, she finally confesses that it was her, not some unknown carjacker that took the children is that correct of course that's correct because she couldn't keep her story straight you know first somebody yanked her out of the car then she drove around with the person in the car the story kept changing you know people in the media like myself, we were watching this unfold, praying that these two babies get returned. And by day three or four, we were looking at each other in the newsroom going, I think this woman's got some crocodile tears going. Well, also, do you remember the composite sketch that was released of the black male she described that took her children. Do you remember that?

I do. You know, I remember it really, really well because I was in court trying a case at the time that this occurred. And it must have been a murder case because I had called someone for help. I needed somebody to help me with some legal research quickly before the judge ruled. And I called my then partner, Herman Sloan. Herman Sloan, now a judge I might add, raced to the courtroom to figure out what kind of mess I'd gotten myself into. And I looked at her and I'm like, oh, my star is Herman. You look just like the composite sketch that Susan Smith just released.

I said, you better get your alibi straight. She goes, I was here in court with you, Nancy. I'm like, good, good thing. But my point is, she could have gotten so many people in trouble, not just my trial partner, Herman Sloan, who is now a judge. She creates in her mind what the carjacker looks like and then puts it out there. How many people do you think were under suspicion because of her fake composite? Members of law enforcement were picking up dozens daily for questioning.

So it all comes out at trial. To Dr. Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner for the state of Florida, that's not easy. You can find it at pathcaremed.com. Dr. Gallagher, how long does it take to drown? I mean, I'm just imagining the children strapped in their car seats. They can't get out and the water's filling up in the car. Right. There are a couple of factors, you know, how rapidly your body is using oxygen. If the water starts coming into the car and the children start panicking, then their body use of oxygen would be greatly increased.

But the reality is after three minutes or greater of no oxygen to the brain, they will develop irreparable brain damage. They will stop breathing, and then they can be declared deceased after that. You know, the way you say, Dr. Tim Gallagher, it sounds so clinical. I assume out of the thousands and thousands of autopsies you've performed, you have performed them on children as young as three years old or one year old like Tyler? Even less, you know, and those are the most difficult cases to do. You know, we are, you know, and those are the most difficult cases to do. You know, we are, you know, like you say, humans ourselves, and we do have children of our own. And these really hit home. But, you know, we really have to put that aside to do these cases and come up with a very unbiased and scientifically provable diagnosis for our results. You know, to you, Matthew Mangino, do you believe juries judge mothers more harshly

that kill their children than they do other murder defendants? I do. Well, again, it's human nature. You know, the idea that a mother could kill her children in such a way that she pushes them to their death and they drowned unable to release themselves from the vehicle or get out of the water. I mean, that's a horrific way to die. And that's a horrific thing for a mother to do to her children. So obviously, it's an uphill battle when you're bringing a mother in front of a jury who's been accused of killing her children. So Chrissy Mazurek, obviously she gets convicted. What's the sentence?

Life. She was sentenced to life. They wanted the death penalty, pulled it off the table. She was sentenced to life back in July of 95 and has been behind bars ever since, but you'll appreciate this, Nancy, a leopard doesn't change their spots. You know what? Truer words were never spoken. Christy Mazurek, investigative reporter, a leopard can't change its spots. Susan Smith, murder mom. Many people say life behind bars was too harsh.

That's better than our two little boys got. Susan Smith, rot in hell. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, Murder Moms, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an I heart podcast.