Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - SHOCK ARREST, HOTEL TRAIL OF BLOOD, ROB REINER, WIFE MICHELLE STABBED IN BED

Episode Date: December 17, 2025

Michele and Rob Reiner leave Conan’s party without their son after his off-putting behavior,like wearing a hoodie to a formal event and interrupting Bill Hader’s private conversation,leads to an embarrassing public row. Reiner doesn’t make his own way to Brentwood however, instead popping up in Santa Monica at 4 a.m. Sunday morning, checking into the Pierside hotel. Desk staff don’t notice anything off about Reiner’s appearance, but the next morning, housekeepers find sheets covering the windows, and blood all over Reiner’s bedding and shower. The Reiners’ troubles with their middle child have been bubbling to a head for months. Everyphoto of the family from the September premiere of Rob’s latest film, Spinal Tap: The EndContinues picture the 32-year-old sporting a deep scowl. By November, Nick Reiner moves back into his parents’ guest house he’s trashed on multiple occasions, leading up to a blowout fight the day after Thanksgiving that left Michele “at her wit’s end.” Ahead of Reiner’s first appearance, renown defense attorney Alan Jackson enters the LA County courthouse, telling reporters he’s representing Nick Reiner. Jackson says his client is still undergoing a medical evaluation at the infamous Twin Towers Correctional Facility, where Reiner is rumored to be held on suicide watch.  Joining Nancy Grace: Philip Dubé - Former Court-Appointed Counsel, Los Angeles County Public Defenders: Criminal & Constitutional Law, Forensics & Mental Health Advocacy, X: PhilipCDube, IG: PhilipDube, YouTube: PhilipDube3922 Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Author: "Deal Breaker: When to work on a relationship and when to walk away” Also featured in hit show: "Paris in Love" on Peacock, www.drbethanymarshall.com , Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, Twitter: @DrBethanyLive  Scott Eicher - Digital Forensics Expert, Founding Member of the FBI’s Cellular Analysis Survey Team (C.A.S.T); Historical Cellular Analysis Expert; Former FBI agent of 22 years; Former Police Officer and Homicide Detective with Norfolk Virgina Police Dept. having served 12 years; Has worked several missing persons cases. Currently with Precision Cellular Analysis handling Criminal, Defense and Civil cases, website: pcaexperts.com;  Rob Shuter - Host: Naughty But Nice Podcast, Author of newly released novel “It Started With A Whisper”, he can be found at robshuter.substack.com, Former publicist of Sean Combs, IG: @naughtygossip Dr. Kendall Crowns - Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), Host of Podcast "Mayhem in the Morgue”, Lecturer: Burnett School of Medicine at TCU (Texas Christian University) Kayla Brantley -  Reporter-At-Large for DailyMail.com. Twitter: @_KaylaBrantley, Instagram: @KaylaBrantley Sydney Sumner - Investigative Reporter, ‘Crime Stories’  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. A shock arrest after a local hotel finds a trail of blood, leading all the way to the shower after the brutal murder of Hollywood legend Rob Reiner and his wife, Michelle, found stabbed in their beds. Multiple stab wounds, slice. including slices to the arterial veins across the neck. This, as in the last hours, a high-profile lawyer strides in, insisting his client is innocent.

I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Rob Reiner and his wife were murdered. Their daughter came across the street. She lives right across the road. And then she finds them. their bodies. They had multiple stab wounds.

I got totally spun out on uppers. I think it was Coke and something else, and I was up for days on end, and I started punching out different things in my guest house. Like a frame? Like what? Like a stuff? No, I think I started with the TV, and then I went over to the lamp,

and then progressive, I just everything in the guest house got wrecked. Our office will be filing charges against Nick Reiner, who is accused of killing his parents, actor-director Rob Reiner, and photographer, producer, Michelle Singer-Riner. These charges will be two counts of first-degree murder with a special circumstance of multiple murders. He also fesses a special allegation that he personally used a dangerous and deadly weapon, that being a knife. You are hearing the local district attorney, and earlier you were hearing Rob Reiner, Michelle Reiner's son, Nick Reiner, describing how he totally got spun out on uppers. I think I was on Coke and something else. I was up for days on end and started punching out different things in my guest house.

Let me just do a quick little correction right there. Killa Brantley joining us, a reporter at large daily mail.com. it wasn't his guest house. He was living on the largesse of his parents, Rob and Michelle Reiner. And this wasn't the first time he totally destroyed the guest house. I mean, the entitlement of this guy, is it true from what, very different from what we first learned, that Rob and Michelle Singer, Reiner, were found their throats slit in their own bed? Is that true, Keela Brantley?

That's exactly right, Nancy. It was around Sunday at 3.30 p.m. When their bodies were discovered, and what we're now learning is that Rob and Michelle Reiner had been dead in their bed for some hours. So, of course, now the police are putting together a timeline of when this could have happened. We know Saturday night there was a fight with Nick

and his parents at a party at Conan O'Brien's house, a Christmas party, and by Sunday at 3.30 p.m., they were found dead. Guys, in the last hours, video has emerged of the son, Nick Reiner. Now, this is after he allegedly murders both his parents in their sleep, which I'm going to circle back to Philip Dubay about. I mean, talk about stalking and predating upon someone, attacking your parents in the dark, in their sleep when they can't fight back. after that

and after he checks into a local hotel and cleans up he's spotted here let's take a look at Nick Reiner this is the latest happening now there he is wow he packed clean clothes he has on a matching outfit

check it out he's got on shoes without blood new pants without blood he's got a backpack a jacket against the cold a hat let's keep watching this because I see him walk in, fully aware of what's happening, going straight to the drink area. He gets a drink, then he goes and stands in line.

Yeah, looks totally sane, doesn't he? This is from CBS News, by the way. Philip Dubay joining us, a high-profile lawyer out of L.A. County, former public defender there. It's going to really be hard for his new high-profile lawyer, Alan Jackson, who represented Karen Reed to argue mental defect because he looks completely sane right there. He knew to pack, could you take him down, please?

He need to pack new clothes, fresh clothes. What happened to the murder weapon? Has it been hidden? Did he know enough to hide or discard the murder weapon so it will never be found? What knife was that? What utensil did he use to stab his parents and slit their throats?

He knows how to go into a gas station. He goes straight to what he wants. He gets it, closes the fridge behind him, comes up to the line and stands there patiently waiting to pay, pays for his food, his drink. Wow, he looks just like you, Debe, going into a gas station. You don't look crazy to me. If you kill during the throes of psychosis,

or if you kill while under the influence of some type of meth-induced, situation like a form of meth-induced psychosis, it cannot form the basis of illegal defense. The jury can factor it in and deciding whether or not he had the intent to kill, but you're not going to walk away from it. And I think what the evidence will probably show is that at some point he was going through some type of a drug-induced euphoria, likely from methamphetamine, and that it dissipated, and he went to what we call that meth or cocaine crash. and that's why you're seeing him so calm afterwards. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Did you interview Nick Reiner and learn all this? Or are you just guessing? You're just projecting. He was on meth. He was on Coke. Now he's in a euphoric downer, and he was in psychosis at the time he murdered his parents. You're just kind of extrapolating. Is that right?

I am telling you he is a statistic. He is the mirror image of that homeless, uh, drug-addicted population out there that goes through that meth or kokai it dissipates and then they crash and during that crash stage they are cool you're saying the same thing again or am i caught in a demonic echo chamber are you making this all up did anybody tell you this are you co-counsel with a high-profile lawyer and you know this by some interview with a defendant or are you just spinning it out that's a yes no i'm not i am enriching you as a to what the likelihood is.

That's really what's going on. Okay, so where did you get your information if you could reveal that? I'll tell you what tipped me off that that's what happened. When he was arrested, they booked him into the Twin Towers Correctional Facility rather than the Men's County Jail. So what that, and that is the largest psych hospital in the United States within a jail system. It tells me that at the point of arrest, just stop, please, you must cut his mind. Because, for Pete's sake, Paris Hilton was booked in the Twin Towers.

That means nothing to me. The fact that he's in the Twins' time, you are spinning out like rumpled still skin. You're taking mangy-looking wet hay and you're turning it into gold. But guess what? That doesn't work with a veteran trial lawyer. That would be me. The lie stop right here. You know nothing about his mental state.

You know nothing about whether he was on speed, whether he's on meth, whether he's on coat. much less a euphoric downer after? Bottom line, you know what? Why am I asking a JD, like myself, mental health questions when I've got Dr. Bethany Marshall with me, we're now in Psycho-Aalyst, joining us out of this jurisdiction along with Dubay, author of Deal Breakers. You can see her on Peacock now and find her at Dr. Bethanymartial.com.

Dr. Bethany, Philip Dubay is talking about statistics and all trial lawyers, know if they've ever tried a case and they're not just a talking head, that statistics are overwhelmingly disallowed as evidence at court. So that's not happening. Now, it doesn't matter if Reiner, as in the son, Nick Reiner, had been on meth, it doesn't matter if he's on Coke. It doesn't matter what he's on. Voluntary use of drugs or alcohol, not a defense. I would like you to look at your screen. We're going to look at this gas station video again. A lot of you may be wondering, why is this important?

Because Alan Jackson has swooped in the Karen Reed lawyer. This is from CBS News, by the way. And I already see, as Dubay said rightfully, that they're going to try a mental defense argument. Okay. But look at this guy. This is a couple of hours after he allegedly slits the throats of both of his parents. You know why? Because he just couldn't take living in that multi-millionaire home, that lifestyle he was given on a silver platter on top of a Christmas tree.

You know, Nancy, I see somebody walking casually around a mini-mart getting a drink. He doesn't show signs of drug abuse here. He's not pacing. He's not agitated. He looks quite calm to me. So instead of putting this in the drug addiction category where somebody's on. mess and there's overkill, which I speculated to yesterday. What I'm going to say now is that often with domestic homicide, when somebody successfully kills a family member, there's an extraordinary relief phase afterwards. So they will be quite calm. They will let go shopping. They will, I mean, like Casey Anthony dance on the stripper pole. They will go out and enjoy their lives. Now, in terms of drug abuse, I've been looking at all the interviews last night, Nancy,

and one of the things I noticed about this guy, Rob Reiner's son, is he does a lot of what we call tongue thrusting, pushing his tongue out as he's talking, which means that he has tard of dyskinesia, which is signed of antipsychotic medication, meaning this guy was in the lap of luxury of psychiatric care. He had the best psychiatrist, the best psychiatrist, the best, hospitalizations, everything available to him. I see this is much more psychological than something that is related to drug addiction. I want to go to Rob Sheeter joining us, a star of naughty but nice podcast, author of a brand new book. It started with a whisper, which is a big hit on Amazon now. You can find him at robshooter.substack.com. Publicist to the stars, you know, Rob Sheeter,

I'm going to put you under the microscope right now and do a lightning round. Isn't it true? You know Nick Reiner. Isn't that true? I met Nick Reiner, yes. So then simple answer, yes. And you have actually sat down and had a meal with him. Yes, no.

A coffee with him and a maybe a croissant. That's not a yes, no, but whatever. when you were with him, did he seem psychotic or just a spoiled brat? A spoiled brat. He felt entitled. Explain him. He turned up late from meeting that he arranged. I didn't arrange it.

So he wanted to meet with me in L.A. And he turned up late, kind of late. Late enough that you notice, not five, ten minutes late. That bothered me. When he turned up, he was rude to the staff, which is always a tell when you turn up and you're rude. to people. I remember at one point they got his order wrong and he blew off the handle really shockingly, shockingly quick and then came back down and sat and talked. He was arrogant. He was

entitled and he sort of had this sense of himself that was way bigger than the reality. He believed that he was a major player in Hollywood the same way that he believed he trashed his guest house. No, you are not a major player in Hollywood. You're parents are. Your dad is. And that ain't your guest house. It's your dad's. Rob, why did he want to meet with you? What did he want? He was struggling. He wanted to be a really successful screenwriter. He wanted to be famous. I think he desperately wanted to step out of his mom and dad and his grandpa's shadow. He was a lost guy. And he had access to resources that the rest of us people struggling in the entertainment business would absolutely

absolutely desire. He had phone numbers. He had email. He had contacts. But unfortunately here, he didn't have a lot of talent. And so he had trouble squaring that. And he was looking, he was looking for somebody to come along and turn him into the next amazing screenwriter, which obviously I couldn't do and nobody else could do any he could do. And he didn't have the gifts to do that. Rob Sheeter, you stated that he contacted you to meet with him because he wanted to become a successful screenwriter. What is your experience shooter as a screenwriter? My experience is zero.

I have never written a screenplay. Okay. So what you're good at, what your forte is, is you are a PR guru. People from all around the world come to you for PR help, public relations help, whether they're in a crisis or they just want to become famous for whatever reason. You've seen it all from Brittany to Sean Combs, so many more. So he didn't come to you for help to become a screenwriter. He came to you because he wanted to be famous.

Yeah, there was no craft there. He didn't come to me to learn the art of becoming successful. He had no interest in learning his craft. He had no interest in taking a screenwriting class in learning how to do this. He wanted to go straight from zero to 100. And this is not that uncommon. It very rarely happens. But everybody wants to be famous.

everybody wants to be successful. Are you willing to put in the work, the hours, the hours, the years, the years? I tell everybody that works with me, for a little bit of success, it's going to take five to ten years of hard work. He wasn't willing to do that. He wanted to go straight from a zero to a hundred.

Well, how did he want you to make him famous? What were you supposed to do? He had no idea how I'd do it. He thought I'd done it for other people. I explained to him very, very carefully that I had worked with a lot of celebrities, But I hadn't turned anybody into a star who didn't do the work. And that everybody I worked with from a Jennifer Lopez

to Jean Bon Jovi works their tail off. There's this thing, this perception out there that you can become famous overnight without doing the work. And it's just not true. You have to do the work. He shows almost zero interest in that. I asked him if he had a screenplay, show me your play. Let me read it, let me see.

He hadn't even put together a sentence. sentence, he sent me nothing. Okay, does that change your opinion, Dr. Bethany Marshall, what you were learning from Rob Shooter? Now, we're getting to the very latest. We know where he's being held right now. We know what his lawyer is up to.

We have seen the very latest videos and evidence. We have evidence from the hotel where he snuck into and literally blacked out the windows with sheets hiding out where he cleaned up, leaving

behind blood in the shower, his parents' blood. Before I get to that, this is a real insight for me, Dr. Bethany Marshall. I usually don't get to have this when I'm looking at a target. This changes a lot for me, this insight into Nick Reiner's mind, Bethany. Yes, it changes a lot for me, too. I was fascinated by what Rob was saying because what I'm hearing is true entitlement. Entitlement is the expectation of reward without achievement. You want to be at the top of Mount Everest, but you don't want to work out, hike, get all the equipment, try to get yourself to the top. You just want to be magically helicoptered there. And so people who have severe addictions, like obviously Nick did, they have to work really hard to surround those addictions, right?

They have to go to rehab. They have to surround themselves with a community that will hold them responsible. but if you're drug addicted and entitled, you are not going to put in the work to gain sobriety. Now, if you're living in a guest house with very rich, very talented, renowned parents, what you're going to see is a sack of gold on the other side of the driveway, and it's yours. It doesn't belong to them anymore. Now it's yours. You should have it yourself, even though maybe you haven't done anything to earn it, right?

Maybe you haven't gone to Conan O'Brien's Christmas party and chatted people up and been kind and, you know, taking pictures, shake hands or anything like that. You just think that it belongs to you. And so what I hear is somebody who thinks he should be famous. He doesn't have the talent. He doesn't want to put into work. He is building up this boiling resentment towards his parents who did put in the work. and his grandfather who did put in the work and envy that green-eyed monster envy when you want something somebody else has and you don't feel you can get it for yourself it causes the wish

to destroy the object of your envy and I think that's what we're seeing right now is that he just he destroyed his parents even though they gave him every benefit every opportunity he thought he could just skate in and you know have lunch with our naughty but nice you know, person here and that all of a sudden he would be famous. It's the offending pattern. I see it everywhere now as we're talking about it tonight. As we go to air tonight, we're learning the district attorney there in L.A. has filed formal charges, including you legal eagles, if you caught this, special circumstances, which means the death penalty is on the table. These charges carry a maximum sentence of life.

in prison without the possibility of parole or the death penalty. No decision at this point has been made with respect to the death penalty. We have requested, and currently, Nick Reiner is being held without bail. One of these special allegations is that the murder was committed with a deadly weapon or a knife. As to where and how the weapon was located or will be located, that will actually be evidence will present in court. The murders of Rob Reiner and wife Michelle Singer-Riner stabbed dead, multiple stab wounds. Injuries to the neck categorized as slash wounds.

Both their throats slit. Arterial bleed is like a water sprinkler. I can guarantee you that this is a blood time. And in the last hours, Nick Reiner, suspect number one in the murders of Rob Reiner and wife, Michelle Singer-Riner, appears in court looking grim wearing shackles

and a suicide smock as he makes his very first court appearance in the murder cases Sidney Sumner, what happened? What happened, Nancy? Essentially nothing. Alan Jackson tells the judge he's already spoken with the prosecution and they agree to postpone Reiner's arraignment

until the new year, so they'll be back in court on January 7th. The judge asked Reiner if he agrees to waive his right to a speedy arraignment, and Reiner meekly responds, yes, Your Honor. The only thing we really learned here is that Reiner is likely being held on suicide watch

evidenced by that barely visible blue smock. So Sidney Sumner, the spoiled brat turned accused double killer, said very little in court he appeared behind glass. He was shackled. He did not enter a plea.

Why? Mr. Jackson answered that for his client, telling the judge it's too early to enter a plea as he had just a few minutes with this client before this initial appearance. It seems the court is already on holiday mode as both prosecutors and the judge quickly agreed to postpone until January 7th. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Nick Reiner is Aramon originally scheduled for this. week, but once high-profile lawyer Alan Jackson enters the scene, Jackson waves the right

to a speedy arraignment, and it has been delayed. Remember, a defense attorney's best friend, delay, delay, delay, and so it has started. Well, I don't think we can be too hard on Jackson yet. I'm not sure this delay can be categorized as unnecessary. We saw Jackson go into the courthouse less than 45 minutes before this arraignment, giving him just a few minutes to meet with Reiner and the prosecutors. I can't blame him for pushing back a plea to get a chance to actually sit down with Reiner and get a better understanding of his story. The arrest of Rob Reiner and Michelle Singer-Riner's son goes down in a public location and eyewitnesses state that Nick Reiner, the defendant in this case, seemingly was acting

like a, quote, ordinary guy. He was arrested in a public area in the Exposition Park area near the University of Southern California campus. He was approached by the officers, and he was arrested without incident. There were no indications that, there was no indication that he was going to resist or anything like that. He didn't flee or anything like that. He was taken into custody without issue, and he was transported to our police air force facility. Kayla Brantley, joining us, investigative reporter Daily Mail.com.

Kayla, what happened? Tell me about how the arrest went down. Yeah, as you can see from those pictures. and as was described by the officer, Nick Reiner appeared very calm, collected. He didn't put up a fight. And you can see in these pictures right here, you know, he put his arms behind his back.

He was not resisting arrest. And it appears that he was in those same clothes that he was seen in that earlier surveillance footage that you showed. So he didn't have a change of clothes and he was taken away very easily. Tell me about what was found at the hotel. It was a horrific scene.

Now, what we've learned is that there was blood everywhere. He's obviously changed his clothes. There was no blood on him, as you saw there. And what they haven't found yet or what they haven't disclosed that they found yet is a murder weapon. So obviously, everyone's assuming that there was a knife that was used for those lacerations to his parents' throat. But we haven't learned yet if that has been found or if it was found in the hotel or at the crime scene. You're right, Kayla Brantley Daily Mail.com. Take a listen to the L.A. District's attorney.

One of these special allegations is that the murder was committed with a deadly weapon or a knife. As to where and how the weapon was located or will be located, that will actually be evidence will present in court. You see the local district attorney seemingly correcting himself, pausing there about the weapon, well, it will be located, it was located. that tells me that the weapon has been discarded, much like in the Brian Koberger case, we found the knife hilt with the defendant's DNA on it underneath one of the murder victims, but we never found the actual knife.

Interesting. Joining me, Scott Eicher, digital forensics expert, founding member of the FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team, FBI, 22 years and former homicide detective in Norfolk. Scott, thank you for being with us. I want to find that weapon. And after much analysis, I think the best way to find the weapon is to track Nick Reiner's cell phone.

How do we do it? Well, there are several different ways to do that. You've got all the different applications on the cell phone and the cellular connections that the cell phone makes all the time when it's on. So you can track the towers, you can get more detailed information from distance from the towers, and you might be able to get some information from the applications like Google or Facebook, Instagram. All those provide some locational information so you can track him historically from the house to the hotel and maybe or to where he was arrested.

which was about, you know, 12, 13 miles away. So there's a good amount of distance between those locations. So they got their work cut out to try to figure it out. But obviously they've got this video. They've gotten to a point. They're putting a timeline together, and they're just going to chronologically go through each little step to see where they could figure out where he might have put that night.

That gas station video from our friends at CBS. Okay, I'm going to go out on a limb here and go back to Philadelphia. Dubey. He is actually a veteran trial lawyer. He's a defense attorney, and he has been with the L.A. County Public Defender's Office. What does that mean? They're on trial all the time, just like assistant district attorneys. There are thousands of cases to be handled, and you've got to go to trial or else you get fired. Very simply put. Philip Dubay, this guy may have been in the movie Maylu. He's been around screenwriters, he's been around stars, he's been around plenty of who done-it-movies. But do you really think that he thought, too, he's only alleged to have committed these crimes, but would he have thought so deeply to think, oh, let me turn my phone off before I get rid of the murder weapon? Let me put it on airplane mode.

I don't think so. Remember one of our last suspects that put the phone on airplane mode? Oh, yes, that would be Barry Morphew, whose phone went on airplane mode around the time his wife was killed or went missing. So, Philip DuBay, do you really think he thought that deeply when he got rid of the weapon? No, and I'll tell you why. I can tell by the charges. The prosecution is not alleging that this was a planned premeditated murder.

The only reason why he's rising to the level of it being a special circumstance is because there were multiple victims. They're not even alleging that he did it for a financial gain, which certainly is the classic motive, particularly in Hollywood. So what you really have here is somebody who is out of his mind, again, likely due to psychosis, drugs, or maybe even an untreated personality disorder, order who flew off the handle in a fit of rage for whatever reason and fled while still in that either drug-induced psychosis or some type of mental health crisis.

Does it excuse the behavior? Okay, you know what, Cindy Sumner? That was all my fault because you never on the stand anyway ask a witness a question that you don't already know the answer to. So I ask him, DeVay, about the weapon and where it would have been discarded. and was the cell phone turned on or off at the time the weapon was discarded, and he goes back to his pretend drug psychosis theory. Sydney Sumner, let's get some facts.

Joining me, Sidney Sumner, along with Kayla Brantley Daily Mail, Sydney Sumner, Crime Stories, investigative reporter. What exactly are the charges against Nick Reiner? We just heard the district attorney speaking. What are the charges? Well, Nick Reiner is charged with two counts of murder, with the special circumstances of multiple murders because he killed two people at the same time

and that special circumstance of using a deadly weapon. Sydney, aren't those murder charges? First degree murder? Isn't that true? You're right, Nancy. They are first degree murder. And in this jurisdiction of California, murder one is murder with malice a forethought. That's what murder

one is in California. Sydney? Exactly. So there is some assumption that this was premeditated in some degree. So when we hear Philip DeBay state that this is not these are not charges

that include intent, that's diametrically opposed to what the charges actually are. The charge is murder one. Again, out on a limb, Dubet, under the law, there is no specific time required to prove malice of orthal or, as we call it, premeditation. Premeditation to commit an act can be formed in the blink

of an eye, the twinkling of the moment. Isn't that true, Dubay? Yes, it is. Okay. So when you say the charges do not include intent, that's actually not correct. This is a murder one charge, isn't it? Yes. No, I didn't say that it was not intentional. What I'm saying is it wasn't planned and premeditated. Yes, you did. Didn't he say that? Didn't he just say that? They're saying yes, you did just say that. Well, then I retract that. We've got it on tape. Do I have to play it back for you for Pete's sake? Like the gas station video? It is absolutely an intentional act, but it was not planned and premeditated. In other words, it was for the moment. There's a difference. Murder one is premeditated murder. I feel like I'm screaming at a lamp post. Yes, it is. Murder one is with malice

aforethought. Malice of forethought standing alone does not necessarily mean premeditated. It's a separate element. I'm telling you. Okay. What do you think malice of forethought is? Because I'm looking up Black's Law Dictionary right now. Go ahead. I can't wait to hear this. What do you think malice of forethought is? Malice of forethought is intentional killing. That's the bottom of mind. Either it's less or... Yes, that's right. It is. However... Yes, that's right. It's intentional killing. Intent. It is an intent. You form intent. You have a plan. Not necessarily. Absolutely not. There's a difference between

I'm wasting very valuable time arguing with you about what you just admitted these charges, and correct me if I'm wrong, Killa Brantley. Joining us from daily mail.com on this from the very, very beginning. Gila Brantley, he, Nick Reiner, is charged with premeditated malice murder. That is what first-degree murder is. He is also charged with felony murder. That's an alternative count, which means you don't have intent. The state doesn't have to prove you had intent, but a death occurred, very simply,

during the commission of a felony. In this case, that felony would clearly be aggravated assault with a knife. You don't have to have intent to prove felony murder, just that a death occurred during the commission of a felony. And a sentence for felony murder can be life without parole or death penalty. Again, tell me the charges, Keela Brantley. It's two first-degree murder charges. There's the special circumstance.

and the special weapon charge right there. And like you said, either life in prison without the possibility of parole or the death penalty. Nick Reiner will be then brought to court. He is going through medical clearance, something that everybody who gets arrested and gets held in a Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department jail goes through.

Once he is medically cleared, he will be brought to court to be arraigned on these charges. At that point, he will answer a plea of guilty or not guilty. Kayla Brantley, joining us, Dailymail.com. Why was he a no-show in court? According to Reiner's lawyer, Alan Jackson,

he wasn't medically cleared to appear in court. Now, we don't know exactly what that means, but as you heard there, that's something that's very standard. Everyone needs to get medically cleared. Now, this could be a psycho-sychevaluation. It could be a regular medical evaluation. We're still finding that out.

It could be him refusing to put his clothes on. It could be him clinging. to his bunk and refusing to go. We don't know what it is. Dubay, what is the reason that he was not, quote, medically cleared? Don't make something up. Okay? He missed court. Why?

I'm telling you, when he got booked, they brought him to the Twin Towers Correctional Facility, and they put him in the medical unit. My hunch is, and he's just based on my years of doing this stuff, that when they arrested him, they felt he was a danger to himself or to others, still. So they put him under what's my guess is. They put him under what's called a 5150 status where they it's basically an involuntary hold for a minimum of 72 hours unless and until

he is cleared by a doctor. And that includes going to court. If he is still psychotic, he cannot be brought to court. So my hunch is that they needed to medicate him to therapeutic levels, at least in the short term, so he could be brought to court for the arraignment. If they need to extend the hold, They can do it, I believe, up to two weeks, anything beyond that. They have to go into court, the mental health court, for an order extending the involuntary hold pending arraignment. To Kayla Brantley, have you heard anything at all about him being in psychosis, suicide watch? What do you know, if anything about that? Not yet.

We haven't heard anything about his current status, but what we have found out from family friends of the Reiner's, people who knew him his entire life. is that from an early age, he appeared to be a difficult child through tantrums. One of the sources is quoted as saying he had anger in his eyes, and at some point his father, Rob Reiner, would have to restrain him during these tantrums, and that those tantrums really progressed into adulthood. Dr. Bethany Marshall, just because Nick Reiner's been booked into Twin Towers, that means nothing to me. Other people, other celebrities have been there.

Cosby, Bill Cosby, O.J. Simpson, Al Capone, Ted Bundy, Birdman of Alcatraz, Bernie Madoff, who worked the world's largest Ponzi scheme. He certainly wasn't crazy. He was

brilliant, evil, but brilliant, and many, many others. How Dubay is extrapolating, because he went to Twin Towers, must mean he's on a psychiatric hold, that doesn't make sense. do you think is happening, Dr. Bethany? Another tantrum. Another tantrum. Out of an abundance of

caution, they're going to make sure he doesn't want to harm himself or other people, but he's not a risk there. What I'm going to say is when you diagnose people, you can diagnose them on five axes. Access one is mental disorders. Access two is personality disorders. They're treating him like he has a mental disorder, but this, Nancy, this is personality driven. He had tantrums from the time he was very little according to one report when he was 11 years old he had such a huge tantrum that his father had to put him in a big bear hug and hold him to help him regulate down into a normal state could it be that nick bethany is bethany can i tell you something please before you say one more word before we hear any more made-up theories from

Philip Dubey, and he wins a lot of cases on arguments just like this, by the way. Paris Hilton, who has since become quite the hero on various fronts and now is a married mom, Paris Hilton was put in the Twin Towers after violating probation from a DUI. She was put there because she was, quote, claustrophobic. All right. And so all of Dubay, spinning out his theories, that's not supported by the facts we know tonight. He just happened to be booked into Twin Towers. It's in that jurisdiction.

So that really means nothing to me probatively at this juncture. But I do know he's hired a very high-profile lawyer, Alan Jackson. We'll be back day-to-day. The bailiff has indicated that the Sheriff's Department will take it on a day-by-day basis. And so hopefully we'll be kids tomorrow. From our friends at Fox News Digital, Sidney Sumner, who is paying for him? That is the million dollar question.

I don't think his siblings are footing the bill. And I don't know what kind of funds he has access to that don't belong to his parents. So it's very unclear where Alan Jackson is going to get his paycheck from. To special guests joining us now, Dr. Kendall Crowns, renowned chief medical examiner out of Tarrant County, that's Fort Worth. He is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU

and he's the star of a hit new podcast, Mayhem in the morgue. But don't be fooled by his joviality on his podcast. He has conducted thousands and thousands of autopsies. Dr. Kendall Crowns, thank you for being with

us. Dr. Crowns, there is a big difference in stab wounds and the slice of his parents' throats. What would the stab wounds to the body, not the slicing of the throats, indicate to you? So stab wound is a wound that is actually longer than it, or the wound itself is shorter than it is deep. So as the knife enters into the skin, it leaves a wound that is very small, but the actual wound course is very deep. The wounds they're describing on the Reiner's is a slashing wound or incised wound that is longer than it is deep. So it's kind of a

shallow wound that hits multiple organs or multiple vessels, but doesn't go very deep into the tissues. Well, let me understand something, Dr. Kendall Crowns, even though the slicing motion you just made doesn't have to be deep. In fact, it can be quite shallow. That would likely be the mortal wound, and why? So the vessels or the structures in your neck, carotid artery, jugular vein, your trachea, they're all very close to the surface, like millimeters or less than a quarter inch below your skin. You have these vital structures.

You hit the carotid artery, it's going to start spurting blood out, and it's going to be lots of blood coming out in a very short period of time. You'll be dead in minutes. If you just hit the jugular vein, it'll start oozing heavily, and again, you'll be dead in minutes. You cut the trachea, you're going to have trouble breathing. And when you cut the trachea, you'll also cut blood vessels. You'll get blood into your tracheas.

So when you're dying, you're sucking in blood. And you're basically drowning in your own blood as you're bleeding to death. Dr. Kendall Crowns, we know that when their daughter, Romey, arrived and called authorities, the fire department arrived. and they stated that the rhiners were already in full rigor. That tells me an approximate time of death. Could you explain? So rigor mortis is the stiffening of the joints that occurs after you die.

And what happens is your muscles continue to use the things they use for metabolism even after you die. And when they run out of these substances, they go into full contraction. And this can start occurring in about a half hour to an hour after death and gets to a maximum about 12 hours. So it starts in the small muscles first and then goes to the larger muscles throughout your body. So if you see full rigor, it could be about 12 hours. But it can be affected by activity, drug use, how much blood loss you've had, a number of other factors, how warm it is in the house. So using it as an exact time frame for the post-mortem interval is difficult. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Isn't it true that after a period of hours, when someone is in rigor, the rigor breaks, and the deceased limbs become limber again? Yes, after the 12-hour interval, after the 12-hour interval of it setting up, you'll stay in full rigor for about 10 to 12 hours, and after that, it starts to subside and disappears over another 12 hours, unless someone moves it and breaks the rigor up manually, and then it goes away completely. So you have about a 24-hour window of full rigor before it disappears. Okay, is it 12 hours or 24 hours? So 12 hours to set up, 10 to 12 hours after it sets up where it stays in place, and then after that it begins to subside over another 12 hours. Okay, Dr. Kendall Crowns, what type of defensive wounds would you have expected to be found on Michelle and Rob Reiner's bodies?

We've heard nothing about defensive wounds, such as blocking with the hands, the arms, even curling up in a fetal position and getting defensive wounds on the knees or the legs. I've heard nothing about that. I've only heard about stabs we believe to the torso. So since they were in bed and may have been asleep, they could have not even seen this coming

and not had an opportunity to react. Since there's two individuals, at least one individual probably was awoken by the other individual being killed and may have had a chance to defend themselves. But usually defensive wounds is what you see is the individual trying to grab the knife and trying not to be stabbed. And you'll see slices or incised wounds across the fingers, across the palm of the hand.

And then you'll see also incised wounds or stab wounds of the forearms as they're trying to block the knife themselves. And again, like you said, you may pull up your legs even and you'll see stab wounds or incised wounds on the legs and feet. Did we all just forget that Rob Rauner was on this list? or what? Now he's dead? What? The zany conspiracy theories have already started.

Sidney Sumner, crime stories, investigative reporter. I don't recall Rob Reiner's name being on the Epstein list, by the way, that's from at Hunter Montrose on TikTok. Sid?

Well, the list that that user is standing in front of is not real. That is a fake list that has been circulating on social media. And Rob Reiner's name is on that fake list and circled,

but there's a fake list. no actual evidence supporting that he had any ties to Jeffrey Epstein. So sorry, Hunter, your Zanian conspiracy theory doesn't hold water. Rob Reiner was not on the Epstein list for Pete's sake, but there's no lack of theories. Maybe Philip Dubay can use these as the defense. Listen. Rob had been working on a series called The Spy and the Asset. The series was going to be about Putin and Donald Trump, their upbringings, different

ways they intersected. and in Rob's words, what happens to democracy as a result of this convergence? That relationship of Trump and Putin being explored and extrapolated and navigated is going to bring a whole lot of corruption up to the surface, right? That from At Studio A8 on TikTok 2,

Scott Eicherer joining us, who was the founding member of the FBI Cellular Analysis Survey team. Scott, I think I'd rather rely not on zany conspiracy theories, I will leave that to our veteran trial lawyer, Philip DeBay. Scott, I'd rather deal with hard facts. How difficult is it going to be for me to trace

Nick Reiner's cell phone where he went that night, any credit card or ATM use, and what was it for? I need to track not only his phone, but where there was a delay, even in the Alex Murdoch case where Murdoch murdered his wife Maggie and son Paul as he left the scene I got from his, well

prosecutor, Waters got from his nav system where he slowed down and the nav system showed Scott Eicherer him lowering the passenger side window electronically that's where he threw out Maggie's cell phone. Then

he let the window up sped up and went and hit out at his mother's house who had dementia and really could not say what time he got there. That said, that's what I'm looking for. You know, this guy didn't think deeply enough to turn his phone on airplane mode or turn it off when he discarded of the knife. So how am I going to find the knife? It sure does look like a crime of passion. In those instances, a lot of times the suspects do not turn off their phones. Don't think ahead like that. Once you get the identifying information about the suspect phone records, vehicle records, credit cards, it's really interesting how you can put

a timeline together and kind of piece together all the things that happened before and after the crime. Hey, Scott Eicher. You and I have both marveled at the video montage put together by L.E. law enforcement in the Fodos Dulo's case. They got him every which way but loose on video from ring doorbell cams to stoplight cam.

This is after his wife, Jennifer, the mother of his five children, was murdered. I'm thinking that this neighborhood is blanketed in ring doorbell and stoplight cam, you name it. I bet they can follow him almost everywhere he

went. And if he took an Uber or share a ride chair, there may be video in there that can help me track him and find the knife. That said, here's another zany theory. Listen up, Dubay. Nick Reiner, who is allegedly the murder in this case, the son of Rob and Michelle, who killed both of his parents, allegedly. His name did not appear on Google Trends, really at all. Here's it in the United States. United States, Nick Reiner, nothing, nothing. This is showing, starting yesterday. 14th So that was the United States

This is what happens when you look up The exact same query and only change the geolocation to be Tel Aviv instead of the United States Nick Reiner Tel Aviv Nothing, nothing, nothing Oh, look at that

Two bumps A couple months ago Last month Interesting All of a sudden bumps Again from At Studio A8 on TikTok Um So Dubay

I guess she's arguing You may not want to take notes to put this in with your drug psychosis theory, that he, what, is actually a spy? She's mentioning Tel Aviv. I don't know what that has to do with. Maybe he's an avatar. Maybe he's a ghost.

Maybe he doesn't even exist. Then who's that sitting in the Twin Towers? I got to tell you, I think it's genius because if we're all honest, it forms the basis of the not guilty by reason of insanity defense. If he truly thinks that he's going to be be deemed up by the Starship Enterprise

and he's got all kinds of wild and magic, Nobody said that. You said that. Well, what else would have? He just didn't have a Google profile. He had no social media profile. The fact that we even have the evidence. And now you're claiming you've got another psychosis defense because he's not a social media. No, not because of that. Okay, good. I'm happy you said that. I couldn't be more happy. I hope you used that at trial. Hey, just to throw this into your crazy pot to stew, listen. Donald Trump got on true social and said this, which is horrific. and tonally and timeline-wise, to me, does seem like a confession.

He's listed motive right there. Means doesn't even need to be explained. And the funny thing is, he got on camera today and doubled down on it again, specifically the part with Russia. He was like, he's trying to look into this and dig all this stuff up. And as you know, it's always the opposite. We're like, there's nothing weird there. It's just so blatantly obvious.

at Studio A8 on TikTok. So, Dr. Bethany Marshall, I don't think that's going to help Alan Jackson at this juncture that Trump confessed to a motive. No, it is not. I mean, conspiracy theorists take something that is sort of benign. I hate to call domestic homicide benign, but it does happen. And they try to spin a whole theory out of it to try. to make it a part of a predictable universe, but it's not. You know, people love to form patterns.

And so conspiracy theorists will try to form a pattern out of an outlier, like domestic homicide. And that's all this is. They're just trying to form a pattern, Nancy. The investigation is ongoing. Right now, we are waiting for Nick Reiner to appear in court. If you know anything or think you know anything about that. the case, whether you observed Reiner, observed him in the gas station, observed him in a ride

chair, anything, please help the LAPD dial 800-222-847-7. Repeat, 800-22-847-7. Tonight, we remember an American hero. Investigator Lewis Roller, Oklahoma District Attorney's Office, killed in the line of duty after 35 years, leaving behind. a wife turned widow and two children. American hero investigator, Lewis O'Roller. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an I-Heart podcast, Guaranteed Human.