Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - SHOCK KOHBERGER DEFENSE: I WAS FRAMED, 911 CALLS FROM INSIDE HOME REVEALED.

Episode Date: March 20, 2025

Law enforcement released the 911 recording after prosecutors unsealed a court document containing a transcript of the call. The filing responds to Kohberger’s argument that the jury should not hear the 911 call. His attorneys argue that the call was improperly submitted as evidence, claiming many statements in the recording are hearsay.   Judge John Judge previously ruled that the statements in question fall under the present sense impression and excited utterance exceptions. However, defense attorneys are raising the argument again before Ada County Judge Steven Hippler.   In the call, the roommates sound distressed as they report that someone is not waking up. Meanwhile, Kohberger's attorneys claim he was framed as they continue to fight for his acquittal. Joining Nancy Grace today: Philip Dubé - Former Court-Appointed Counsel, Los Angeles County Public Defenders: Criminal & Constitutional Law, Forensics & Mental Health Advocacy  Dr. Bethany Marshall  -  Psychoanalyst, Author: "Deal Breaker,”  featured in hit show: "Paris in Love" on Peacock www.drbethanymarshall.com, Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, Twitter: @DrBethanyLive Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective,   Host of YouTube channel, "The Interview Room." Website: www.coldcasefoundation.org/chris-mcdonough Dr. Kendall Crowns - Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), NEW Podcast --- launching on April 7th, Lecturer: Burnett School of Medicine at TCU (Texas Christian University) Todd Shipley - Digital Cyber-Crime expert, Former Detective Sargent, Author of a new book: Surviving a Cyberattack: Securing Social Media and Protecting Your Home" and author of:  “Investigating Internet Crimes: An Introduction to solving Crimes in Cyberspace”  www.darkintel.info, Twitter: @webcase Sydney Sumner - CrimeOnline Investigative Reporter See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. What is the address of the emergency? 1-1-2-2-K-Road. 911 location of the emergency? Hi, something is happening. Something is happening in our house. We don't know what. What is the address of the emergency? 1-1-2-2-K-Road. Help, help!

Help! What is the rest of the address? Oh, Kings Road. Okay. And is that a house or an? Oh, King's Road. Okay. And is that a house or an apartment? It's a house. Can you repeat the address to make sure that I have it right? I'll talk to you guys. We live at the White, so we're next to them. Just hearing that 911 call makes all of our legal analysis and speculation about what may or may not happen at trial dim, dim, because we hear the fear and the terror in the voices of those co-eds upon

finding the bodies of their roommates. In the last hours, stunning and heart-wrenching 911 calls and texts have been released that reveal what the roommates did before they called 911 as well their movements. But first, let's hear the actual 911 call. And let me advise you, it's disturbing. And of course, the Brian Koberberger defense wants it suppressed they don't want the jury to hear this wow i wonder why tell me exactly what's going on um one of our one of the roommates has passed out and she was drunk last night and she's not waking up okay oh and they saw some man in their house last night yeah hi. Hi, this is... And are you with the patient?

Okay, I need someone to keep the phone. Stop passing it around. Can I just tell you what happened pretty much? What is going on currently? Is someone passed out right now? I don't really know, but pretty much at 4 a.m. Okay, I need to know what's going on right now if someone is passed out.

Can you find that out? Yeah, I'll come. Come on, let me go check. But we have to. I wonder how that 911 dispatcher feels right now as we hear her say, uh, stop passing it around and being completely rude to these co-eds calling in. Now you see the difference in the voice of, uh, the second caller and she's sounds much calmer than, you know what? Let's listen to the first one now. 911 location of the emergency.

Hi, something is happening. Something is happening in our house. We don't know what. What is the address of the emergency? 112. What is the rest of the address okay okay and is that a house or an apartment it's a house can you repeat the address to make sure that i have it right i'll talk to you guys we're um we live at the light so we're next to them you can hear the sobbing and the hysteria in the background of that 911 call. Now compare it to the next comments.

Tell me exactly what's going on. One of the roommates has passed out, and she was drunk last night, and she's not waking up. Okay. Oh, and they saw some man in their house last night. Yeah. Hi, is with the patient? Okay. I need someone to keep the phone. Stop passing it around. Can I just tell you what happened pretty much? What is going on currently? Is someone passed out right now? I don't really know, but pretty much at 4 a.m. Okay. I need to know what's going on right now. If someone is

passed out, can you find that out? Yeah, I'll come. Come on, but you've got to go check. But we have to. And there you hear the surviving victim speaking, and she begins to tell what happened. She says pretty much at 4 a.m., and the dispatch operator cuts in and goes, yeah, I don't need to know that. I need to know if somebody passed out. Can you find that out? Okay, let's keep going.

Did you pass out? Okay, let's keep going. She's not waking up. Okay. One moment. I'm getting help started that way. Okay, thank you. Watch out! You hear crying and heavy breathing between sobs. In the background it was almost unintelligible. Now they've got a guy friend that's been brought over and you hear him screaming, Zanna, Ethan, uh, unintelligible

right now, get somebody here right now. And the continued sobbing and you hear someone yelling, Zanna, Zanna. And I only can imagine at that moment to Chris McDonough joining me, he and I've been to the scene many, many times. Them shaking Zanna, yelling at Zanna, trying to make her wake up. No wonder Koberger wants this suppressed. So the jury will never hear it because it takes you to that moment when they realize their roommates have all been murdered. Absolutely, Nancy. I mean, this is a very powerful 911 call. It also gives us a clear understanding of the state of mind of everybody that was experiencing this horror that very moment. I mean, to the point where, you know, there's almost a disbelief

that takes place. And I've heard, like you and many others, hundreds of these phone calls. And these kids, imagine going upstairs and witnessing what they've witnessed. It's just horrific. It's absolutely horrific. I'm just thinking how they are going to try to get the 911 calls suppressed. It's really hard to do. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, first of all, we were just speaking to Chris McDonough. He is the star of the interview room on his own YouTube channel. But for my purposes, he is a veteran homicide detective with over 300 death scenes under his belt. He's

at coldcasefoundation.org. Dr. Bethany, these two surviving victims, Dylan and Bethany have been attacked, maligned, mistreated, all sorts of accusations hurled their way. None of it matters. When you hear this 911 call, none of that matters. I remember when I first started prosecuting, I would try to, you know, reshape the victims or witnesses to give a better impression that lasted one trial. I'm like, forget it. Take your witness as you find them and weather the cross exam. Nothing is going to matter to this jury when they hear that 911 call, no matter how the defense tries to attack these girls. Nancy, this 911 call is the first witness and the last witness in this case. It's uncontrovertible truth. You cannot take away from it. You cannot minimize. You cannot cross-examine a tape and try

to tell the witnesses, oh, they weren't really that emotional and they were making it up. It's right there. You hear the shock, the shock, incomprehension, trying to make sense of what's going on, the hysteria, as you said earlier. Also, Nancy, fear, profound fear. They say there was a man in the house last night. So they're in a house where they feel vulnerable at that point, too. Guilt that it's their roommate and not them. You know, Nancy, the tapes are going to be suppressed because these voices don't lie. They are real, true, raw, jagged emotion. I'm going out now to Crime Stories investigative reporter who has devoted herself

to researching and investigating, poring over every detail, every photo, every word of transcript. In this case, Sydney Sumner joining us. Could you clarify for everyone who is Hunter Johnson? So Nancy, Hunter Johnson is referred to only as H.J. in court documents. But when you read the Gonsalves statement in response to this 911 call being made public, they mention Hunter Johnson. He is a friend of Ethan Chapin's and he is that male voice that you're hearing on the 911 call, according to the Gonsalves family. So the context that we can kind of gather, what I'm hearing at least, is that Hunter is the one who couldn't get a hold of Ethan, finally decides, you know, they're not answering the bedroom door. I'm going to step in here and see what's going on. So he opens that door. He sees Zanna's body.

And at this point, he knows that something is really wrong. He immediately tells Bethany Funk to call 911. But it seems like he didn't give her the full story of what was going on. So he tells her that Zanna needs help. She needs to call 911, but doesn't really explain everything. So when you hear them, we need to go check. We need to get more information for the dispatcher. They go inside to talk to Hunter to see what's going on. And they're asking, is she okay? Is she passed out? Because he hasn't told them what he is seeing in an effort to protect them, maybe keep them calm so they can get 911 there. And you can hear him get out, get out, get out, telling them to back out of the room because

he doesn't want them to see the horrors that he's experiencing. When you know what you're looking for, and you'll have to, the jury will have to be told this in advance. When you know what you're looking for or listening for, you clearly hear him, H.J. Hunter, yelling, Zanna, Ethan, and then you hear him again yelling for Zanna Cronodal to wake up. Here we hear him again. Listen. okay and how old is she um she's 20 20 you said yes 20 you're doing okay hello hello okay i need someone to stop passing the phone around because i've talked to four different people hey sorry they just gave me the phone. Is she breathing? Hello? Is she breathing? No. What is wrong with this dispatch operator? But you know what? That's neither here nor there. Here we are hearing H.J. Hunter talking to dispatch. And at the beginning, you hear heavy

breathing, someone whispering, whispering something unintelligible that seems to end with the word blood. And then you hear him turn around and yell, get out, get out, get out and crying. And then you hear a female voice crying and then you hear dispatch being rude again. Um, let's hear more of the 911 call just released. right now. Okay. If there's a defibrillator available, send someone to get it now and tell me when you have it. Do you have a defibrillator? Yes, we have one. Are you talking to the officer? Yes. Okay. I'm going to let you go since he's there with you and can help you. Okay. Thank you. Okay. To Sydney Summer joining us, Crime Stories investigative reporter. Sydney, you hear dispatch clearly not understanding what's happening. Not their fault, because even the girls right now don't really understand what's happening. The only one that knows what has happened to a certain degree is Hunter Johnson.

He saw, obviously, that they were dead and told Dylan and Bethany to get out, yelling at them, get out, get out, don't go in there. A defibrillator would not have helped at that point, Sidney. No, Nancy, absolutely not. And that's the point that Gonzales' family made in their statement about this 911 call is, again, remember as you're hearing this, if they had called 911 at 4.50 a.m., the result would have been the same. All four of these students still would have lost their lives. And Nancy, I do think it's interesting that the girls, everyone on this 911 call, mentions the man that they saw in their house at 4 a.m. multiple times. So as they're making this 911 call, the girls know enough to feel like that is connected in some way or shape or form. They feel that's important enough to tell the 911 dispatcher. So it's unclear exactly who

knew what in this moment, but it does feel like it was important to them that this possible break-in be mentioned right off the bat. You know, Sidney Sumner, there is no replacement. There is no substitute for preparation, for a careful review of every line, every document, every piece of evidence, because even one word, or in my case, in a serial murder case, I tried one earring can prove so much. And what you just said, I find incredibly valuable. And I'll tell you why, Sidney Sumner, because we know that the eyewitness that spotted who the state says is Brian Koberger, his build, his color, his hair color, his bushy eyebrows.

They're going to try and destroy her. But what she just said on the 911 call is called an excited utterance. Whether that really fits this scenario or not, that's what it's called under the law. This is before she had time to fabricate a story as it will be claimed. This is what's happening on the scene. And you're right, Sidney, and you've identified the importance of the witnesses noting then that there was a guy in the house and the dispatch had interrupted her, we would have heard more right there about what happened around 4am. You're right. She is connecting the murders to the intruder in the home. Now you also heard Sidney Sumner, our reporter talking about what the Gonsalves family

said, Kelly's family. And I got to tell you, these families have been through hell, hell, and it's not over yet. There's a trial to be had. But I want you to hear what they have to say about this 911 call and all their suffering. They maintain not only courage, but grace. The Gonzales family releases a statement. They say every ragged breath, cry, and tremor in the students' voices reveals a cruel reality they experienced, the kind of horror that shakes you to your deepest core. Tell me exactly what's going on. One of the roommates has passed out, and she was drunk last night, and she's not waking up. Oh, and they saw some men in their house last night.

In the last hours, heart wrenching 911 calls have been released of what was going on at the scene of the murder. When the roommates wake up and discover four people, they didn't know at the time they were all dead. Four beautiful, beautiful University Idaho students. This as a smirky selfie emerges of, oh, thank you, Brian Kober. This is around 1020, 1030 in the morning, 1031 a.m. to be precise. Interesting. This is just after the murders. That said, take a listen to this. Of course, you know, this is coming. Those 911 calls are so powerful. The defense is fighting tooth and claw to get them suppressed. Law enforcement released

the 911 recording after prosecutors unsealed a court document with transcript of the call. The filing in response to Kober's argument, the jury should not hear the 911 call. The attorneys argue that the call was improperly submitted as evidence, as many of the statements made in the call are hearsay. Judge John Judge already ruled that the statements in question fall under present tense impression and excited utterance exceptions. But defense attorneys are making the argument again with Ada County Judge Stephen Hippler. Joining me, high profile lawyer out of the L.A. jurisdiction, Philip Dubé. OK, you know what you just heard. I'm going to throw a technical legal term at you is a big stinking pile of BS. Okay.

That's what that legal motion is. And I don't know how defense attorneys keep doing it and have a straight face. You know, they make an argument that a 911 call shouldn't come in when of course it's coming in. It's an excited utterance and it's a present tense impression. But also, of course, it's going to come in if the speaker takes the stand and can be cross-examined on it. So what are they trying to do? Well, I think what they're trying to establish is that you cannot use 911 calls to circumvent the rules against hearsay. And you got to understand something.

In order for it to be a present sense impression, they have to be relaying what is happening in real time. In other words, as it occurs. And one of the things she says, there was a man in the house last night. So what are you going to do? You're going to state stale facts from the night before to get around the rules against hearsay? First of all, what you just said is not true because I have entered 911 calls, seen 911 calls entered into evidence by the murder victim,

who obviously could not be cross-examined unless you perform a seance in front of the jury. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. So the fact that the 911 caller or who is speaking on the 911 call cannot be crossed is not a reason not to bring in the 911 call. And the judge pointed out, I guess you think the judge is wrong too, under excited utterance and present sense impression. It's coming in. Where would it end? What if she would have said, I saw a man in the house six years ago, Shabuas, but I happened to find my roommates deceased in their bed today. But that's not what she said. No, but she said last night. So last night is a stale fact. It's not a present sense impression. How do you figure him up? You are misleading the viewers. Present tense impression is what the speaker is saying at that moment.

It doesn't matter if she's recounting something that happened eight hours before. And when she says last night, that's something she can be cross examined on. Okay. You know what? I'm not a betting person, but why don't we bet right now on air that this 911 will come in? Of course it will, because anything to stick it to the defense, they're going to find tortured legal logic to get it into evidence. Of course, that defense, they're going to find tortured legal logic to get it into evidence. Of course, that's what they're going to do. Okay, you know what? Let's go to someone with real life experience

in 911 calls. Chris McDonough joining me, homicide detective, worked over 300 homicide cases. Plus he was in vice. You don't even want to know what he saw in vice. Chris, have you ever in your life and all the cases you investigated ever seen the 911 call excluded from evidence suppressed so the jury could not hear it ever

one time? No, and definitely not under these circumstances. I mean, your point is right on target, Nancy, with the excited utterance here. It is the exception of the hearsay rule. And remember, we also have to keep the frame of mind of the caller. They are still thinking that their friend is passed out, drunk from the night before. And the other person that grabbed the phone even started the conversation with that. So that's the present tense when it starts. In addition to the release in the past hours of those very disturbing 911 calls, which, of course see the calls were made much later, mid-morning. Now we're getting a peek at what was happening in those early morning hours around 4 a.m. So far in Jumpin' Sydney, if I've got any of this wrong, we know they were all out really late. Some of them in a group, they were at a food truck. Remember at the beginning of the investigation, let's see this photo of them at the

food truck. Um, because everybody at that food truck and standing in the group fell under suspicion. I recall there was a guy in the distance. All these people were tracked down and questioned. See the guy on the right kind of standing away. He was found. He was, everybody was found and questioned. So we know they were at a food truck. I believe getting pasta super, super early in the morning. I'm talking one, two, 3 a.m. We know they went

home. We know some of them ordered like Uber Eats. These are the last known images of some of the victims. And this became an evidentiary football at the beginning of the investigation as LA law enforcement tried to track their last movements and who they would have come in contact with. They go home. Then naysayers immediately began vilifying Dylan and Bethany because they, quote, waited to call 911. But I want you to see the text conversation between Dylan and Bethany. No one is answering.

I'm really confused right now. Yeah, dude, what the f***? Zanna was wearing all black. I'm freaking out right now. No, it's like a ski mask almost. Shut the f*** up. Actually? Like, he had something over his forehead and mouth. Bethany, I'm not kidding.

I'm so freaked out. So am I. My phone is going to die. F***. Come to my room. Run down here. I'm screwed, though. Yeah, I know.

But it's better than being alone. Sydney Sumner joining me. Crime Stories investigative reporter. Sydney, let's put this into context. Of course, the cell phone data experts are going to know exactly what time these texts were going back and forth between them. Dylan Mortensen's phone was dying and Bethany was trying to coax her to run to her room. Can you imagine running from room to room knowing that there's an intruder or thinking there's an intruder in the home.

One, and remember how the girls were attacked because one opened the door and saw who the state contends to be Brian Koberger standing there. And we were all like, well, well not us, but others were, well, why didn't she call 911 then? Seemingly attacking her. Tell me what you've gleaned about these text messages, Sydney. Nancy, I think these text messages are between two terrified co-eds who don't know what's going on and have been out all night partying, drinking.

So unfortunately, they are not sober at this point. And their house is known to have sometimes strangers in it. They throw parties often. They have a lot of friends. There's five people living there. So in terms of having a stranger in the house, that's not super uncommon for them. And even if this person was not somebody they recognized and freaked them out, they might not immediately call 911, not knowing whether or not this is someone who is supposed to be there at that point. Okay. Brace yourselves. Philip Dubay joining me, high profile lawyer out of LA. What would be the grounds? Okay. Don't exaggerate. No hyperbole. Just tell me. What could possibly be the grounds the defense will use to try and suppress these text messages,

Philip Dubé? That it violates the rule of completeness. In other words, if you don't have the complete textual context and all you're doing is just providing snippets, perhaps out of context, then what it does is it has a tendency to mislead the jury. So how you cure it is you allow all the texts in their entirety to come in so that the jury can read everything in harmony. Otherwise, it has a tendency to mislead the trier of fact. And it's common, not just with text messages. We see it where prosecutors try to admit recorded statements of a defendant, recorded statements of a victim or of a witness. And in order to have a thorough opportunity to cross-examine on each point, you need everything presented. Oh, oh, how I would love to try a case against you and have you spout that out in front of a judge, because the remedy for that is to say, fine, we'll play the whole thing.

Everybody get comfy because it's about two hours here. Here, we're just showing the relevant portion of the text, Dubé. Other texts preceding this are talking about, hey, where are we going to dinner? Where are you tonight? Where are you tonight? Let's go home. Let's order Uber Eats. Do you want noodles or do you want a hamburger? Exactly my point.

We play the part about the attacks. But sure, the answer to that is sure. Be careful what you want, my dear, for you will surely get it. The attacks. But sure. The answer to that is sure. Be careful what you want, my dear, for you will surely get it. The defense wants to hear the whole thing. I'm happy to play it with that. Yes. Would that make you happy? Because that is the rule of completeness. In other words, both sides get to see the entire transcript or hear the whole interview or the whole phone call, whether it's relevant or not, would that placate your completeness objection? It would cure it. Remember, it's a legal objection. It's not. Yeah, of course it would. So yes. Okay.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace okay and how old is she um she's 20 is she breathing hello is she breathing? No. Okay. Stunningly, while we have seen the defense waffling, skittering back and forth, what will be the defense? Now, believe it or not, the defense has emerged and it is, I was framed. Listen. While still fighting to exclude the knife sheath DNA evidence that was identified as Koberger through investigative genetic genealogy. It appears the defense will now claim that Koberger was framed, the knife sheath left behind by the real killer to distract detectives. The state points out the defense's potential argument in response to a sealed filing. Prosecutors write that the defense will try to convince a jury that the sheath does not prove Koberger was ever at the crime scene. Oh, dear. Have they latched on to my knife and gun show theory that they would argue that Koberger

had touched the knife or the knife sheath and then someone else, I guess, what was watching him and left it there to frame him? Framed by who? Let me see that smirky selfie where Koberger goes all Kim K. I mean, wait a minute. Sydney Sumner, do I see, I'm seeing in this version, is that a window sill? Is that a window frame to the right? Or is that a shower curtain? Or do we even know? Nancy, we don't know for certain, but unfortunately, I do personally think that is a shower curtain. It's not a flat edge. It's clearly soft, possibly hanging, and I can possibly barely see a little hair of a shower curtain ring up in that top right corner. Sydney Sumner, tell me about the cell phone data that the defense is contending. They're contending it right now, and they're bringing on

a so-called expert to do so. Yeah, Nancy. So what the defense is claiming is that, once again, the state has cherry-picked what data they want to include so that this cell phone data fits their narrative that Koberger was at this house that night. So FBI agent Nicholas Balance did some kind of analysis, and they're claiming that he willfully chose things that helped the state's case and left out exculpatory evidence. But they don't know because he didn't file a complete report. So the defense is claiming they only sent over a PowerPoint that they plan to use in court, and it doesn't tell me anything about his methodology.

So this testimony needs to be blocked. Todd Shipley joining me, digital cybercrime expert, former detective sergeant, author of a new book. It's amazing. Surviving a Cyber Attack, Securing Social Media, Protecting Your Home. He's also author of Investigating Internet Crimes, Solving Crimes in Cyberspace. You can find him at darkintel.info. Todd, again, that's all BS because the defense has access to all of the same data the state has. They can generate their own report instead of saying, exclude all of this because we don't

like the state's report. They can do their own report. What are they going on about? Well, that's exactly right, Nancy. I mean, they could go over the data. If they've got the cell phone tower data, they've got the data from the cell phones, they could be doing the comparison themselves and making a report. They were just trying to bring somebody in to testify to, you know, make it look like the prosecution witness was

not doing the right job. If they did a declaration, they could lay out exactly what they think the facts are that could be then refuted by the prosecution if it's wrong. But they haven't done that. They're just arguing that they want somebody to testify. So it's kind of silly that they've done this. They could just bring forward the facts and see what's wrong with it. And they haven't done it. Kyle Shipley, you have very carefully reviewed the facts in this case. What do you believe the cell phone data calls? And isn't it true regarding these texts we were just playing as well as the 911 call? We're going to be able to tell digitally exactly what time the texts went down and the calls. Well, exactly. I mean, the digital evidence is going to tell a very compelling story for everybody, for all the people in the house where they were that night before, the events that occurred

at the truck that they had dinner at. All those things are going to be telling a story, including the suspect. His cell phone is going to be telling a story, including the suspect. His cell phone is going to be telling a story, but it's not all evidence yet. They've just released the pings of, you know, where the towers were that the suspect was, and that's damning, and that's why the defense doesn't want to bring it in, because it's telling a story that they don't like, and it's going to tell more of it, because there's more of the story. I mean, even your image this morning, the selfie there, you know, you're posting, it's going to tell a story. The digital evidence, the metadata in that image is going to tell a story and all the other

things he's done, because I'm sure that he, like so many other, you know, suspects have plotted this out. And there may be evidence from days or weeks before where he went to that house. I don't know that for a fact, but as they go through the phone, they're going to be able to see the story of his life in addition to what the victims was. Joining us now, a special guest, Dr. Kendall Crowns. He is the chief medical examiner, Tarrant County, that's Fort Worth, Texas, an esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU. Question. Why is it that at first the girls thought that the victims were just passed out?

How could that be? They were stabbed multiple times, Dr. Crown. So depending on where an individual is stabbed, they may not actually bleed outside of their body. They'll bleed internally, usually like with sucking chest wounds, the blood will bleed into your chest cavity. Blood may bleed into the abdominal cavity. So if their wounds were in certain locations, there may not have been any real blood that was outside of the body. And so it wouldn't be soaking into their clothes. And they could look like they were just passed out and laying there. And that would be my best opinion on that. You know, another thing, Dr. Kendall Crowns, I'm coming at this from an evidentiary point of view, have attacked the girls because they say, the witnesses, the survivors, because they say,

you didn't hear anything. Well, actually, they did hear something. Sidney Sumner, investigative reporter, they heard someone moan or cry out. They heard thumping up and down the stairs. Correct? Yeah. At one point, the girls even came out of their room to ask them to be quiet. So at this point, they didn't realize anything was amiss. They thought their roommates had come home

and were still being rowdy from their plans earlier that night and were asking them to stop and to be quiet. They definitely heard some commotion. You know, Dr. Kendall-Crowns, those attacking the two survivors are screaming. Well, why didn't you hear the victim screaming and why didn't you call 911 earlier? Dr. Kendall Crowns, in our world, the way we live, for instance, if you hear a gunshot, you may go, oh, who's setting off firecrackers? Because it's not in your realm of understanding.

You don't have your arms around the fact somebody could be shot down the street or you might think it's a car backfiring. I've seen many cases, many where witnesses hear something, but they don't realize a murder is occurring. What could the girls have heard? So you're right. It's all kind of context. You have to have an idea of what's going on. You may think that something else is occurring when it's actually a murder. What they could have heard is yelling, screaming, things being knocked over, kind of bumping around. But the same thing could be heard in people that are drunk or having,

you know, a good time or jumping around or dancing. You could mistaken that. Philip Dubé, all arguments between us aside, you're a veteran defense attorney. How will the defense attack Dylan and Bethany for not hearing four murders when they clearly did hear something, but they didn't know what they were hearing? Yeah, that they were on an all-night bender, that they had been drinking, that they were likely hungover, that their perceptions and their ability to recall were compromised by being impaired from the effects of alcohol. And who knows, maybe if they smoked something, I don't know. But the whole idea of being a reliable witness when you take the oath is that your ability to observe, recall, and to perceive is not compromised by

outside intoxicants or other types of interference. And I think if you can establish that maybe at a pretrial hearing, a judge can find that they're incompetent to testify as a witness. Dr. Bethany Marshall, these girls have a tough time ahead on cross-exam, and I hate what's going to happen, but they've got to take the stand. Nancy, they have to take the stand, but what I'm concerned about is that they're going to be re-traumatized. They have already gone over that night over and over again in their minds, and when we have post-traumatic stress disorder, we have something called flashbacks. I hope some psychologist or somebody is there to prepare these young people to be on the stand because they will be cruelly resubjected to the same physiological arousal, intrusive thoughts and anxiety that they had on the night of the murders. I just wish I could take this away from them, but they're going to have to take the stand. We wait as justice unfolds. And now we remember an American hero, Senior Police Officer

Alexander Yazzie, Navajo Division Public Safety Tribal Police, shot and killed in the line of duty. A U.S. Marine Corps vet served 14 years with L.E Survived by wife, now widow, Kathleen. American hero, senior police officer, Alexander Yazzie. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.