Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - SHOCK: "MCDONALD'S BABY" Left Dead in Fast-Food Bathroom, Mom Caught on Video?

Episode Date: March 30, 2022

Arizona police are searching for a person of interest after a deceased newborn was reportedly found in a McDonald's bathroom. Surveillance video shows a woman entering and leaving the restroom just before the baby was found. Police are not saying she is the mother, but do want to question her. The Phoenix Fire Department pronounced the baby boy dead after responding to a call at a Phoenix McDonald’s. An autopsy is pending. The woman in the surveillance footage was wearing a black Calvin Klein shirt, black pants, and sandals. Anyone with information regarding this case should call the Phoenix Police Department or Silent Witness at 480-948-6377.Joining Nancy Grace Today: Kathryn Marsh - Special Victims Liaison for the State’s Attorney's Office (Charles County, MD), Co-Founder: Right Response Consulting, "No Grey Zone" Podcast", www.rightresponseconsulting.com, Instagram/Twitter @nogreyzoneRRC Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, www.drbethanymarshall.com, New Netflix show: 'Bling Empire' (Beverly Hills) Dr. Kendall Crowns – Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), Lecturer: University of Texas and Texas A&M, Affiliated Faculty: University of Texas Medical Branch Greg Scheffer - Investigator: International Anti Human Trafficking Organization "Hope for Justice", Former Phoenix Police Department Detective, 22 Years Specializing in Child Sexual Exploitation, Crimes Against Children, Domestic Violence and Adult Sex Crimes Bianca Buono - Reporter, 12 News (Phoenix, AZ), Twitter: @BiancaBuono, 12news.com Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. All across America at this very minute, People are going to McDonald's. Whether you drive through for a Diet Coke or a decaf, whether you go in for a Big Mac, that slogan sticks in everybody's mind in the back. Two all-beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun. You can get whatever you want there. But the shock of a lifetime one McDonald's customer's got is something she'll never forget. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. I very often told your Rors when I saw them cringe or turn away,

that I felt the same way reviewing the evidence, much less delivering the message to the jury. But I begged them, do not turn away from the truth. Take a listen to our friends at 3TV and CBS 5. It's just as awful as you inside of that McDonald's child's body and tonight video, please hope they c

responsible. New video sh are looking for last seei Calvin Klein shirt, black who left the bathroom aro Police say someone found a dead newborn baby 24 hours removed from a after someone inside the restaurant saw the dead newborn. It's a scene that you can never be prepared for is walking in somewhere and locating an infant, a newborn infant. Heather Berner with the National Safe Haven Alliance says situations like this should never happen. But it has. She counts this as the eighth child abandonment this year across America.

That's our friend David Caltabiano speaking. Guys, according to one study, eight children abandoned, that's that we know of. How many other children, babies, infants are either thrown away in dumpsters or killed and abandoned, their bodies hidden somewhere. It happens all the time. This time, a tiny baby's body found in a busy McDonald's. Again, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. You know, I was just talking about telling a jury not to turn away from the evidence, but I actually did. I'll let our friends at 3TV and CBS 5 describe what happened, but I will now describe it. A tiny baby found in a busy McDonald's near Phoenix, Arizona. Video surveillance shows a woman walking out wearing a black Calvin Klein t-shirt, black tights. She has long, dark hair. It seems to me it may be frosted.

She appears to be a white female. What more do we know about her? Not much, but I can guarantee you this. When this picture is disseminated across America, someone's going to recognize her. And let me be clear, we are not discussing or attacking the right to choose an abortion. That's a whole nother can of worms. What we are talking about is delivering a child, a healthy child, then murdering the child and disposing of the body. Catherine Marsh is joining us, special victims liaison for state attorney's office in Charles County, co-founder of Right Response Counseling and the No Gray Zone podcast. Also with me, renowned psychoanalyst joining us from Beverly Hills, Dr. Bethany Marshall, not only renowned psychoanalyst, but star of a new Netflix series, Bling Empire, Dr. Kendall Crowns joining us, chief medical examiner, Tarrant County, that's Fort Worth. Lecturer,

University of Texas, Texas A&M. Also, faculty at University of Texas Medical Branch. Greg Schaefer joining us, Investigator with the International Anti-Human Trafficking Organization, Hope for Justice, a former Phoenix PD detective, 22 years. But first, let's go to special guest reporter with 12 News, Phoenix, Bianca Bono. Bianca, thank you for being with us. Tell me what happened at the McDonald's. What do we know? So what we know is that on March 27th, around 2 o'clock in the afternoon, in broad daylight. Okay, wait a minute.

You just stole my catchphrase. In broad daylight. Okay, wait a minute. You just stole my catchphrase and broad daylight. I mean, that's a whole nother layer that we're going to throw at Dr. Bethany Marshall. Well, everybody, statistically, mentally, psychologically, broad daylight is a whole nother animal. That said, sorry, Bianca Bono, 12 News, go ahead. No problem. So police officers responded to that McDonald's restaurant near 33rd Avenue and Indian School, about 10 minutes northwest of downtown Phoenix, to a call about an injured person is what they said. And when they showed up, they located a newborn baby boy inside the bathroom of the McDonald's. We're told that officers then

attempted life-saving measures and then the Phoenix Fire Department showed up and did the same, but unfortunately they pronounced that infant dead at the scene. Bianca, you've got me drinking from the fire hydrant. You're giving me so much so quickly I can't digest it. I've got to break down every sentence you said. Oh, you gave me a flashback to law school. I was a Shakespearean literature major. When I got a hold of my first U.S. Supreme Court decision, one sentence can be a paragraph. I would have to dissect each part of the sentence to understand what they were saying. Okay, let's take an analysis. Let's analyze what Bianca Bono has just told us. First to you, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst. Dr. Bethany, you're throwing away a newborn baby boy, an infant

dead. And of course, I'm going to come back to you, Dr. Kendall Krause, on how long had the baby been dead? How do we know? Could it have just died? All that. I'm going to come back to you, to Greg Sheffer. How often is this kind of crime, a murder, affected in daylight hours, in broad and plain view? But to Dr. Bethany Marshall, I mean, no shame, no shame. I mean, there's one thing dumping a baby in a dumpster out behind a building at midnight, which is bad enough, but to have the cojones, to walk into a McDonald's in broad daylight when people are in there ordering their cheeseburgers, or as David and I do since we don't drink soda at home, a sneaky DC, sneaky Diet Coke. I mean, they're in there and she walks in with a dead baby and leaves it in the bathroom. There's so

many layers. Just let's start with broad daylight. Nancy, there's a lot of layers. There's so much to say about this. I mean, primarily... Please don't say layers to the onion that's that's very old please don't okay go ahead okay well then let's start with the fact that this woman probably never bonded with this baby even in utero even at conception that something happened in this woman's life. Have you looked at her? I have. Because very often people ask me, what are you looking down at? Well, for the longest time at HLN, they had installed, as you know, Bethany, a baby cam. So I could see the children because I couldn't bear to be away from them at night. I remember the nanny cam. It was actually part of the desk. Okay. I look at them on one side and on the other side, I would look at pictures. That's what I'm

looking at right now. I'm looking at a picture of her walking out in the black tights down to the ankle, some brown sandals. Okay. I'm not sure, but I believe she's got a pedicure. A black T-shirt that says Calvin Klein something under it. She's got hair just below her shoulders. Oh, it's definitely frosted. Dark, maybe light brown hair. Part of it, I think, kind of in the middle. It's long. And from about the eye level down, it looks like it's been frosted a little bit.

That's what I'm looking at. Okay, go ahead. Well, Nancy, in order to assess the situation, we could look historically what happened when she was impregnated, what happened in terms of her family relationships, why during the day, why is she waddling? When I was looking at the video you're looking at, it looks like she's kind of waddling into the McDonald's and she's waddling out. And it's hard to know from the security camera what the time lapse is between when she enters the bathroom and when she exits.

So I have no idea because I'm a non-medical psychoanalyst. Did she give birth in the bathroom or did she carry the baby in? These are so many questions for other guests. But what I will say from a psychodynamic perspective is that this is a woman, while she may have been motivated by criminality and being homicidal, she likely never bonded with the baby. In a large recent study of women who secretly abandoned their babies, one of the things that was learned is that these women have a great deal of shame about the pregnancy. They do not bond with the

baby from the time of conception. There's often intimate partner violence, poor levels of parental support, appalling lack of prenatal care. Oh, you know what? Please, please. I know what you're going to tell me. I know, I know. Let's get some cheese to go with that wine. Because Dr. Bethany, I'm not asking you about the historical analysis of her impregnation. I believe you said that when she got pregnant.

Because I don't care. And I don't care what her family situation is. If she did not want to commit murder, don't you have a very unfettered pro-choice position in Arizona, Bianca Bono? The position is actually largely pro-life in Arizona. Do you have abortion laws there? I mean, can a woman get an abortion there? She can. She can. Natalie Holloway is a warning. We head to Aruba with Natalie's mom. What can we learn?

Nancy Grace's shocking new investigation streaming now only on Fox Nation. Sign up today. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Catherine Marsh joining me, Special Victims Liaison, I'm not taking a position for or against abortion right now. I'm not discussing pro-choice or pro-life right now. I am discussing murdering a baby right now. You give birth to the baby and then you murder it. Why would you inflict that pain on a newborn infant? I don't get it, Catherine. Well, I think it's a

hard thing for any of us to wrap our mind around. But as prosecutors, the first thing we have to establish is, was the baby born alive or was it a stillborn birth in order for us to get to that homicide murder component for court? Okay, you know, you're just giving me another flashback because if you're giving birth to a baby and the baby is stillborn, why would you just not call 911? Why? Because that's what I would do

if I had suddenly given birth and the baby was stillborn, I would call 911 and try to revive the baby. I would not put it in a bag and dump it. Also, the fact that nobody is identifying this woman tells me nobody knew she was pregnant, which means she likely concealed her pregnancy. Another indicator to Dr. Kendall Crowns, Chief Medical Examiner, Tarrant County. How can we tell if the baby was alive or stillborn? Well, the main thing you can do is you take the infant's lungs and you place them in like water. And if they float,

it shows that they had taken a breath and filled their lungs with air. Also, you can look at it histologically or under the microscope looking for the actual air sacs to show expansion. And those are the two kind of rough indicators for them to have taken a breath. They're not exact, but they're the best we have. Dr. Kendall-Crowns, I'm just a JD, you're the MD. Could you say that one more time and very slowly for me, please? So the ways you can tell if an infant has taken a breath at birth or wasn't born as stillborn is you can take the lungs out of the body cavity. So you have an autopsy.

Yes. Yes. With a big gigantic cut, the V from the shoulders going midway and then straight down like a giant Y to a newborn baby. Go ahead. You just pluck the skin away, cut the chest plate off, then take the lungs out, and then you place the lungs in a jar of water.

And if they float, it shows that the lungs that had air in them were filled with air. You can also cut the lungs up and take small portions of them and look at them under a microscope. And you'll see under the microscope that the air sacs or the alveoli have filled with air showing that they took a breath. You know, Greg Schaefer, investigator with the International Anti-Human Trafficking Organization, Hope for Justice and former Phoenix PD, 22 years in crimes on children. Just hearing Dr. Kendall Crowns, very sobering. It's very sobering to think of a tiny baby undergoing autopsy,

having its lungs removed and putting them in a jar of water to see if mommy murdered it. It's kind of overwhelming. Well if mommy murdered it it's kind of overwhelming well yeah obviously it's disturbing and just like we already talked about there was no connection to the child and that's why she allegedly she left it in the in the mcdonald's but what's really sad is that there's four fire stations within five minutes of that location. They're all safe havens. And there's three hospitals within 15 minutes of that location, which are all safe havens as well. So that child could have been delivered to any one of those places.

No questions asked. No questions asked. I had researched that, and I found safe havens less than 10 minutes away from the McDonald's where the baby was left. You're saying it's actually five minutes. Five minutes. Yeah. Well, there's four fire stations right around that McDonald's. I used to work in Maryville right there.

So there's four fire stations there, three hospitals less than 15 minutes away, one of them Phoenix Children's Hospital. So the child could have been taken to a facility and turned over, no questions asked, anonymous, and she could have been on her way. But she chose this route, and it's unfortunate. I think down the road, you know, she's going to get identified, and they'll probably go. She's going to get identified. Speaking of safe haven, take a listen to our cut two. Again, this is David Cotabiano with ReTV and CBS 5. Arizona law lets parents or loved ones surrender unharmed babies who are up to 30 days old to police departments, fire stations, and hospitals without repercussion. Heather says there are plenty of resources to avoid this crime.

The saddest part of all of this is that they don't have any choices. They are at the whim or will of their parents. It's traumatic, I think, because we know there are so many options now. There are so many safe alternatives to placing your baby in an unsafe or dangerous situation. Back to this McDonald's, safe havens are less than a 10 minute drive away. Now people in this area want to see an arrest. Another look at this security cam video of the woman police are searching for. Okay, let's talk about that. How are we going to find the mom? And to you, Bianca Bono, joining us from 12 News in Phoenix, has there been any speculation that the child had just died or was still alive in the bathroom? Or is it believed the child was dead when she brought it in?

That's the big question that we're still waiting to get answered. But what I can tell you is more of what police told us initially when they notified the public about this incident. They told us that they did locate the newborn baby boy inside the bathroom and they said that they did attempt life-saving measures and then the Phoenix Fire Department showed up and did the same. I have read a tiny portion of the police report that it says the boy was pronounced dead at the scene. Anyone with information is asked to contact Silent Witness at 480-WITNESS, W-I-T-N-E-S-S-4-8-0-WITNESS. For those of you just joining us, a newborn infant, a baby boy, has been found dead at a very busy McDonald's. In the last months, it's the second time that a child has been abandoned. Take a listen to our cut for our friends at KPNX 12. In 2019, another infant was found in the bathroom trash can at an Amazon

warehouse. The mother in that case later telling officials she didn't know she was pregnant and had given birth to a stillborn. She was not prosecuted. In the U.S. this year, in 2022, there have been eight illegal abandonments. For some reason, we are seeing that there are a lot of these cases right now. In Arizona, there are options. Infants can be brought to a designated safe haven location like hospitals and fire departments

up to 30 days after birth. Why didn't that happen here? Now, in the case, since this is becoming the point of our discussion, in the case of the mother in 2019, that child was determined to have been born, still born, still a crime to dispose of a human body. But in this case, we have no indication this baby was stillborn. It's not by far the first time this has happened. Take a listen to our friends

at Station 15 on the Allison Leitch case. Now at six, day in court, a young mother who abandoned her infant inside a dumpster is formally charged with attempted murder. Good evening, I'm Heather Herron. I'm Mark Bellinger, thanks for joining us. Allison Leitch is 19. She was emotional as she appeared in DeKalb Superior Court this afternoon where she entered a plea of not guilty. News Channel 15's Janice Allen was inside the courtroom and joins us now from the courthouse with the latest. Well, Mark and Heather, Allison Lesch gets face up to 50 years behind bars for attempted murder. She allegedly gave birth and then threw her newborn baby away like trash. And tonight we are learning new shocking details about how she did it. Allison, tell us what happened. People want to know your side of the story.

They'll find out. 19-year-old Allison Lesch didn't have anything to say to our cameras as she made her way to DeKalb Superior Court, but she did become emotional as she neared the door. Inside, she was formally charged with attempted murder for allegedly wrapping her newborn baby girl inside a trash bag and tossing her inside a dumpster. Lesch had only been living here at Forest Point Apartments in Auburn for about a month, and court documents are now shedding some light on the hours leading up to the discovery of her baby. They say Lesch delivered the baby inside her bedroom late Saturday night. She then wrapped the newborn in a blanket and left her on the floor while she cleaned up the mess, showered, and tried to go to sleep. According to those documents, the next day she put the baby in a trash bag

and into the dumpster as she left for work. You know, to you, Dr. Bethany Marshall, we keep seeing the same scenario, putting the baby in a blanket, then a trash bag. The dichotomy of wrapping an infant in a baby blanket and then putting it in a black trash bag and a dumpster is very disturbing. Yes, it is. And, you know, what it shows me is actual contempt and hatred for the child and actually prioritizing the needs of the mother over that of the child. I know that's going to sound strange, but think about what motherhood is all about. When we're a mother, the child's needs are more important than anybody else on the face of the planet,

and they're more important than our own needs. And contrast that to double, triple wrapping the child like you would a piece of putrid trash in order to hide the child and put the child in the dumpster. So what that mother is doing is she's trying to secrete the child so she won't be caught. It's all about her. It's the most profound act of selfishness and layer that with the fact that this woman we're talking about did it during the day either that's when her labor was complete she went into labor and she it was time for her to deliver or there were people in her life who would have found out she was pregnant so she waited until her boyfriend her parents siblings people who are at work and they wouldn't

find out and that's when she wouldn't went and did it and to me that's what adds the layer of criminality is waiting until everybody else is away so that you do it secretly there's two kinds of abandonment there's open abandonment where you kind of just you you leave the child with a babysitter you take off you never contact the babysitter you leave them with it leave your child with the grandparents and then you leave the country. That's an open abandonment. Then there's the secret one. It's when you secrete the infant away, you kill the child or there's a stillborn like we talked about. You put the child in a dumpster or in a trash can. And at that point, the child is so devalued, such a nothing in the mind of the mother that it turns the whole idea of motherhood

on its head. And it's really a disgusting act, Nancy. The phenomenon of killing your baby at birth was brought to the forefront with the case of the so-called prom mom, Melissa Drexler, who at her prom goes into the bathroom, gives birth, goes back onto the dance floor and special requests the song Unforgiven. Take a listen to our cut B. This is Unreasonable Doubt podcast. Upon arriving to the hall, she soon fled to the bathroom. Concerned friends followed Melissa and started to wait outside the toilet stall she had barricaded herself into. To get rid of her peers, she said, go tell the boys I'll be right out. Within just 30 minutes, Melissa Drexler delivered a healthy six pound baby boy alive. She cut the umbilical cord on the edge of the metal sanitary waste bin inside the toilet stall.

She then took her baby out of the toilet, wrapped a series of garbage bags around him, placed him inside another garbage bag, and then threw him into the trash can. I mean, that's a whole another layer of guilt in my mind. Let's go out to Catherine Marsh joining me, Special Victims Liaison, State Attorney's Office. Catherine, there she goes out on the dance floor, continues to dance to Metallica's Unforgiven. Absolutely. It certainly goes to show intent, state of mind, and quite frankly, just how callous she was in the abandonment of the child after she gives birth. The fact that she could cut the umbilical cord, wrap the child, and then take the child to the trash, those are all steps that go to the premeditation and laying every single bit of it out in front of a jury. To Bianca Bono, reporter with News 12 in Phoenix, that's a really good surveillance video. I find it

very hard to believe she has not been identified yet. Where has this been disseminated? It's been disseminated all over the greater Phoenix area and actually really across the entire state of Arizona. And you're right, the video is crystal clear. And it's a long video as well. So you get a really good look at her top to bottom as she goes to walk into the bathroom, attempts to open the door a first time and it's locked, and then goes back up a second time. So it's a fairly long video. So as of the latest information we have from police, she hasn't been identified,

but they're doing so much behind the scenes. So I wouldn't be shocked if they already know who this person is. You know, another issue is McDonald's has surveillance video, surveillance cams on the inside and the outside. To Greg Sheffer, I find it really difficult to believe that there is not video of her leaving, getting into some kind of a car. Even if you can't

see the tag, which I believe in Arizona, you have tag on the front and the back, not just the back as in many states. But even if you can't see the tag, you can get the model, make, and color of the car, figure out how many people in that area have that car. That's not hard to do. Then cross-reference the driver's license once you get title and registration. I mean, it takes a minute. It takes somebody to sit down and do that research,

but that's how you do it, right? Well, like Lexi said, they're probably doing a lot of that behind the scenes. They probably grabbed all the footage and that entire square right there, and they're going through it doing that. I think there's a Costco right over there too, and Costco usually has really good footage as well. Oh, there's a Costco across the street? Really? right over there too and costco usually has really good footage as well uh so i imagine they're doing that across the street really oh it's in a parking lot there's a big huge right there near 33rd

avenue and indian school road i mean you know greg sheffer cops need to be all over that surveillance video including um if it goes into residential which i'm not sure of the terrain, ring, doorbell cams or something similar to them, surveillance video in all of the businesses. As you just said, a Costco, they have excellent video surveillance. And not only that, red light cams are great. They're specifically there to get your tag number. I wonder if all that is being done, Bianca Bono. I would imagine that it is. And it's worth noting that this is an area where there's a lot of foot traffic as well. So it's unclear if she drove to that McDonald's or walked up. But like the

detective just said, it's a very busy area and there are a lot of businesses around that mcdonald's so that you know we only have this one video clip from inside but that's because that's all that's been shared with the public so i would imagine there's a lot more surveillance video that's being combed through this on the heels of another newborn being abandoned a mystery is the baby is actually left on the hood of a parked car in Connecticut as cops hunt for the man, we believe, the dad, fleeing the scene in a dark-colored vehicle. That just happened, and now this across the country in Arizona. Sona. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you just joining us, take a listen to our cut one, David Caltabiano at 3TV. It's just as awful as you can imagine. Somebody inside of that McDonald's restaurant found the child's body.

And tonight, with the help of surveillance video, police hope they can catch whoever's responsible. New video shows the woman police are looking for last seen wearing a black Calvin Klein shirt, black pants and sandals who left the bathroom around the same time. Police say someone found a dead newborn baby 24 hours removed from a horrifying scene and the restaurant is still open with some people changing their lunch plans when we told them what happened. I think somebody would do that like that. Wow. Phoenix police responded to the fast food location Sunday afternoon after someone inside the restaurant saw the dead newborn. It's a scene that you can never be prepared for is walking in somewhere and locating an infant, a newborn

infant. Heather Berner with the National Safe Haven Alliance says situations like this should never happen, but it has. She counts this as the eighth child abandonment this year across America. It may have nothing to do with the mother's background. Think about it. I remember one of the first cases that gained national notoriety, in addition to Melissa Drexler, the so-called prom mom, who I now understand is out of jail and is married with children. But there was the Amy Grossman case. She and her college

sweetheart, she got pregnant by her college sweetheart. She had every advantage you could imagine. Loving parents, middle to upper class family in college, the world before her, knowing her choices, she and the boyfriend choose to kill the baby and throw it in a dumpster. Take a listen to our friends at Stories from the Grave podcast, cut C. We're perfect teens, high school sweethearts. Then she got pregnant. They got scared and the baby ended up dead. The New Jersey teens, both 18, whose shocking baby dead in dumpster and baby slayer story made headlines around the world. That was in 1996. Amy delivered her baby boy in a Comfort Inn motel in Newark, Delaware. In November, assisted only by her then-boyfriend, Brian Peterson, who later threw the baby into a dumpster. In that case, the baby suffered

severe skull fracturing. That's how the baby was killed by Brian Peterson. And they threw the baby in a dumpster. Very often, you don't hear the name of the bio dad. In that case, we know it was Brian Peterson. In the Connecticut case, I just mentioned to you, a male abandoned the baby on the hood of a car. I wonder why that is, Dr. Bethany Marshall, that we blame the mom. What, the dad, the bio dad doesn't notice? The girlfriend, fiance, wife is pregnant and then doesn't question, hey, where's the baby? I think that's a very interesting question. I was wondering that with this case too, where was the father? And in the two cases you mentioned where the baby had the skull fracture, the baby was left on the hood of the car, you have two people conspiring together to commit a crime, just like any other crime where there's duos involved, whether it's the DC sniper case or, you know, serial killers acting in concert, you have two people conspiring and making a plan together. And I think,

you know, as a society, we think that if a baby is born, it's primarily the mother's responsibility. This is the mother and the father's responsibility to nurture the child, raise the child. But you can't get around the fact that the mother apparently is the one that leaves the baby in the McDonald's. To Bianca Bono, reporter with 12 News in Phoenix, what are police doing to find her, other than I hope, gathering surveillance video? Well, you know, they've interviewed people who were there at the McDonald's and in the area, and they've actually put a call out to the public saying that there were more witnesses who were there at the scene when this happened, but they left prior to police officers arriving. So they're asking the public right now that if you were in that

McDonald's or you saw anything and you left before officers arrived, they're asking that you come forward and give a statement. Well, it's very difficult for me to believe, again, that with this surveillance as finally taken as it is, you see her walking in to the McDonald's. And you know what's interesting, Bianca Bono, I don't see her carrying anything. That's right.

You don't see her carrying anything throughout the entirety of the video. As I mentioned before, it's a pretty long video. You see her walk into that bathroom. She pulls at the door handle a first time and sees that the door is locked, so she comes back right past the camera. And an undetermined amount of time later, she goes back when the door is opened up, and she goes inside, and then she comes back out. But at no point is she carrying anything in her hand.

She would have to have had the baby concealed on her person, Catherine Marsh. Absolutely. And from what I've seen of the video, there's not a lot of places within her outfit to have the baby concealed either. You know, I've looked at it. The only way I see that it could have happened is if she had it concealed in the front of her shirt. Because when she walks in, you see her back and her hair, her just below shoulder length hair.

She, I'm looking at it right now. She's pulling on the door. She turns around like, now what? Looks at the men's bathroom, then walks forward and she is adjusting her shirt on her right side. You see her pulling out her shirt, and then as she leaves, holding the bottom of her T-shirt in the front. Now she's coming back in, and I'm wondering if she did not have the baby concealed in the front of her shirt somehow. What about that, Catherine Marsh?

That is completely a possibility. It could also be she was holding her baby because she was having contractions for labor and she was holding, you know, her stomach as she's going into the bathroom and then giving birth to the child. Bianca Bono, it doesn't look like she's pregnant when she walks in. I don't know of any report that there was blood in the bathroom, that the umbilical cord had been cut. Plus, she's not in the bathroom very long at all. Certainly not time to give birth. And the video makes it a bit unclear to have a sense of time because there are no time stamps on the video. And there very well could have been more of a scene

in that bathroom. Police just have chosen not to make those details public at this time. Straight back to Dr. Bethany Marshall. Dr. Bethany, why? Nancy, contempt towards the child, hatred towards the child, fear that the child is going to interfere with an idealized life, perhaps a new romantic partner where the mother thinks, boy, if I have a baby, he's not going to love me. Big dreams, big plans for one's own life, lack of a capacity to imagine into the life of the infant that that infant could go to school, could go to Harvard, could get a big job, could provide grandchildren. No imaginative capacity that this little being that is ruthlessly stuffed into a trash can is a person who could be on roller skates, who could blow out birthday candles. The reason I'm painting this picture for your listeners is that this picture does not reside in the mind of the mother. Think about when you were pregnant with the twins, Nancy, didn't you have hopes and dreams?

Didn't you think about every stage of their life? Don't you think, I'm sure today you're going to be thinking about what Lucy and John David have coming, what they have for their summer plans, what you did on spring break. You, they are in the mind of their mother. And in my field, we think one of the biggest catastrophes is when a person is born and they do not reside in the mind of the mother. Nobody thinks about them. And this is really the catastrophe that we're talking about today.

It's not just homicide. It's not just murder. Those are terrible things. We talk about crime all the time, but something many of your viewers suffer from is that they may have been born into the world with nobody thinking about them. And that is so essential to being human and being alive. And that's what's absent in a catastrophic way here. The search is on for the woman that police believe killed a newborn baby, leaving it, its dead body, in a busy McDonald's. If you have information, 480-WITNESS, W-I-T-N-E-S-S. We wait as justice unfolds. And let me remind everyone, we don't know if this mother regrets the deed, but the law is clear. One may immediately regret the deed, but that does not

negate intent at the time of the crime. Goodbye.