Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - SHOCK SPECIAL TREATMENT FOR WHINEY EMPIRE 'STAR': HATE-CRIME FAKER JUSSIE SMOLLETT RELEASED AFTER 6 DAYS IN LOCAL JAIL

Episode Date: March 17, 2022

Empire co-star Jussie Smollett is out of jail while attorneys appeal his conviction for lying to police about a hate crime attack against him. Smollett began serving his 150 day sentence last week, even as he steadfastly denies paying two men he knew to stage the attack, as a special prosecutor contends. Days after the actor began his sentence, Smollett was put into protective custody in the Cook County Jail, and then his brother, Jocqui Smollett, and his attorneys claimed that he had been put into the “psyche ward” because of fears of self-harm. Cook County police said the Smollett was being housed in an area for inmates who need extra treatment for mental health issues but said it was also used for “extra monitoring.” Smollett’s attorneys asked the court to release the actor pending appeal, arguing that he would complete the sentence by the time the process was completed. They also cited homophobic threats received by the actor in their request for emergency release. The special prosecutor responded to the motion by saying it was “factually incorrect.” Two of the three members of the appellate court agreed with Smollett’s attorneys and said he could be released after posting $150,000 personal recognizance bond, which means he won’t put up any money but must guarantee he appears in court as required. Appellate Justices Thomas Hoffman and Joy Cunningham signed the order and Maureen Connors dissented.Joining Nancy Grace today: Matthew Mangino - Attorney, Former District Attorney (Lawrence County), Former Parole Board Member, Author: "The Executioner's Toll: The Crimes, Arrests, Trials, Appeals, Last Meals, Final Words and Executions of 46 Persons in the United States"  Dr. Shari Schwartz - Forensic Psychologist (specializing in Capital Mitigation and Victim Advocacy), www.panthermitigation.com, Twitter: https://twitter.com/TrialDoc, Author: "Criminal Behavior" and "Where Law and Psychology Intersect" (Miami Beach, FL) Paul Szych - Former Police Commander (Albuquerque, NM), Author: "StopHimFromKillingThem" on Amazon Kindle, StopHimFromKillingThem.com, Twitter: @WorkplaceThreat Alexis Tereszcuk - CrimeOnline.com Investigative Reporter, Writer/Fact Checker, Lead Stories dot Com, Twitter: @swimmie2009  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Hate crimes are a very, very serious thing. One of the first crimes I ever worked on, a case I argued all the way to the Georgia Supreme Court, were hate crimes on black gay males across the city of Atlanta. I'm not talking about Wayne Williams. This is a whole nother set of crimes where young black males that were gay were sex assaulted, raped, and then shot in the back of the head.

That was a very, very difficult case to prove. No witnesses. We had the caliber of the weapon. Did not have any DNA. Long story short, it was hard fought and hard fought on appeal. And the conviction held. So when I hear about someone faking a hate crime, and I think about all those young men dead out in fields,

behind buildings, in alleys, with a bullet in their head. I don't like it. I want you to listen to this. Our cut A from the Today Show. Not suicidal! And I am innocent! I could have said that I was guilty a long time ago. Even after a Cook County judge sentenced Jussie Smollett to 150 days in jail, the disgraced actor turned convicted felon

sticking to his story. If I did this, then it means that I stuck my fist in the fears of black Americans in this country for over 400 years. The former Empire star's unwavering claim of innocence, ultimately his undoing. She committed hour upon hour upon hour of pure perjury. Judge James Lynn sentencing Smollett to 30 months felony probation, including that jail time, ordering he pay more than $120,000 in restitution to the city of Chicago

and pay the maximum fine, $25,000. You've turned your life upside down by your misconduct and shenanigans. You've destroyed your life as you knew it. As a defiant, Smollett was taken into custody last night, his family blasting the judge's decision. He's the reason why folks aren't going to report hate crimes. They's the reason why folks aren't going to report hate crimes. They're the reason why folks aren't going to report hate crimes. Okay, you heard Jussie Smollett going down swinging, lying through his teeth till the end and in the last hours, a stunning twist.

Jussie Smollett, the former star of the hit series Empire, has been released from jail. Yeah. And when you hear that reporter going on and on about 30 months felony probation, probation, that means you're not in jail. This guy, after all he put everyone through, after the disservice he did to real crime victims, he was going to do about five days behind bars. He got sentenced to 150 days, and now he's done about five days. Why? Because he refused to eat and drink ice water behind bars.

So he walks free. Everybody in the Fulton County Jail is going to go on an ice water diet and walk free, I guess. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and SiriusXM 111. Yet another travesty in the Jussie Smollett

case. With me, an all-star panel, Matthew Mangino, former district attorney, Lawrence County. Former parole board member, author, executioner's toll. Dr. Sherry Schwartz, forensic psychologist specializing in capital crimes. Author of Criminal Behavior and Where Law and Psychology Intersect. Paul Zeit, former police commander. Oh, I can't wait to hear what he's going to say, author of Stop Him From Killing Them on Amazon Kindle. But first to Alexis Tereschuk,

CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Alexis, you know, the whole thing goes all the way back to his ridiculous claims of a hate crime perpetrated upon him because he, I guess his main thing was that he was gay or because he was black. It was a mixture when he went out for a 3 a.m. subway run. How in the hay has Smollett gotten out after just a few days? So the judge spent almost an hour telling him all of the reasons why he was putting him behind bars. The reasons was he was found guilty of five felony counts of disorderly conduct for lying to police about his hate crime. He says that he was attacked at 2 o'clock in the morning in Chicago in the dead of winter, absolutely sub-freezing weather. Two men he claimed wearing red hats that said, make America great again, MAGA hats, he blamed us on Trump, said they attacked him and

said, this is Trump country and beat him up and tried to hang him by putting a noose over his head. The jury said this was a big fat lie and found him guilty of lying. So the judge sentences him to jail. He appe. Well, he first asked the judge, can I have an appeal? The judge says, no, you're going right to jail, goes to jail. His lawyers file a claim with the appellate court and say he has been sentenced to only five months in jail, only five months. We want to appeal this. We're going to drag this appeal out longer than five months. So if you keep our client in for the whole five months, and then when it's done, the appeals court overturns the conviction,

he will have unnecessarily served this time. I don't care. Bombshell, Jussie Smollett, hate crime faker, walks out of jail after release, serving less than a week of just 150 days. Hey, does everybody remember when Paris Hilton went to jail and she was going to do what? She got like a six-month sentence, something like that. She did three weeks, maybe, because the jail was overcrowded. Was that Nicole Richie? One of them.

And it was high drama. And the bottom line is, when you have a sentence like 150 days, you're going to get out really quickly anyway. But to petition the court to get out early after what has gone down? Take a listen to our cut 29, our friend Patrick Eldwood, WGN. Almost three years after he reported being attacked amid homophobic and racial slurs, actor Jussie Smollett took the stand in his own defense today. While being questioned by his attorney, Smollett described the early morning incident,

saying he had gone out to Walgreens to buy eggs, but it was closed, so he opted for a Subway sandwich store instead. On his way home, Smollett says he crossed paths with two men wearing ski masks, with one of them yelling racial and homophobic slurs, and saying he was in MAGA country while recognizing him as an actor on the TV show Empire. Smollett says he threw a punch in his defense but doesn't know if it landed. He fell to the ground and was kicked. He testified that after the attack, he didn't even know there was a noose around his neck

because, quote, I was getting my ass whooped, unquote. But yet, there were no injuries. He had a tiny little cut right there. And I don't know how many pictures he took of it. Now take a listen to our cut 33, our friend, Charlie DeMar, CBS News, Chicago. The actor also told the jury that he would do drugs with Abel Osindaro and the two had a physical relationship. He said during a bathhouse encounter there was some touching. Abel denies those claims. I'm ready to do what I gotta do. It's likely that the case will hinge on whether the jury believes Smollett or brothers Abel and Ola Osindaro who testified Smollett paid them to fake the attack. Wait let me understand something. Alexis Tereschuk, the payment was tracked down.

Wasn't it a check? The payment was tracked down, and he tried to tell the jury that these two guys that he did drugs with, that he went to a bathhouse with, that he allegedly had romantic attachment with, sex with, they're the ones that attacked him, and they're the ones he couldn't identify. No wonder the jury didn't believe him. Exactly. These are guys that he's been friends with for years. And in fact, they were known to people on the set of Empire. They are personal trainers, but he wrote them a check, an absolute paper trail, undeniable paper trail, even though he says it was for something else, maybe drugs or maybe anything else. He can't really remember. Also, he doesn't care because

these two, he doesn't even know if they were the ones that attacked him, even though they were caught on video. I think we need a shrink and we need one pretty quickly. For those of you just joining us in a bombshell turn of events, hate crime faker, Empire star, Jussie Smollett has walked out of jail after about five days and 150-day conviction. Straight out to Dr. Sherry Schwartz, forensic psychologist, joining us. This guy needs to shrink. Well, that does seem to be the consensus, at least in the psychological community, Nancy. Anybody who fakes something like this, an illness, a crime, or they fake injury, typically what we start to look at is something called factitious disorder.

If you think about Munchausen's by proxy, when it's, when that's done to other people to get sympathy for yourself, this is kind of where you do it to yourself to get sympathy for yourself. But in this case, he might also have, you know, not so much a mental health disorder like that, where he's almost sympathetic, but this might have been for personal gain in terms of promoting some movie project that he was working on to get publicity. Oh, he got publicity, Dr. Sherry Swartz, didn't he, Alexis Teresichuk? But who's ever going to hire him, ever? That's the thing. This is, his career is absolutely over. Empire was a huge, huge show. To hang with his career? What about Lady Justice? An appeal bond?

My rear end? Why do you need a jury if you're going to then give the defendant an appeal on what the jury just did? Why did you strike a jury? Okay, back to you, Alexis Tereshchuk. I know you're in Hollywood, and that's your mindset. My mindset is about how hard I fought to prove convictions, to prove cases. Put a jury through H-E-double-L, missing work, away from your children, away from your home. You know, nothing drives me crazier than have to be away from the twins. And they're in court all day long. Listen to this guy whine about how bad he's got.

How much was he getting paid an episode, Alexis? $200,000 an episode. An episode. Did you hear that? Did you hear that? Whining, carrying on. And he's been behind bars. What's five times 24?

Is that 120 something? He hasn't even been behind bars 200 hours and he's out? He has, he has walked free. The appellate court has three judges. It was not a unanimous decision. It was two to one, majority rules. And he walked out of court at 8 p.m. Chicago time. In a whole Hollywood production again. You know, Jesse has five bodyguards. He has family members. He has defense attorneys. The biggest entourage you've ever seen outside of the TV show entourage.

It's like everything is a Hollywood production for him. Guys, take a listen to our Cut 32 reference from WGN. Smollett testified he resisted calling Chicago police because, quote, I am a black man in America. I do not trust the police, unquote. But later, he said responding officers treated him very well. He testified as a gay black man. He felt the incident would emasculate him and hurt his chances for certain types of future acting roles. Earlier in the day, Smollett testified he met the Osindaro brothers through his job on Empire and that he went to a Chicago bathhouse with one of them where they did drugs and made out.

Prosecutors say he recruited the brothers to stage the attack as a way to pump up his career. Smollett has admitted to paying the brothers $3,500, but says that was for weight training and diet consultation. Okay. Okay. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Okay, Matthew Manzino, attorney, former prosecutor, author. Go ahead.

Hit me. Well, there's no question that you're angry at Jussie Smollett. But I think we have to separate. I'm more angry at the judges to let him go. Yes. And I understand that as well. But but, you know, you're mad at him. But we need to separate the people we're mad at from the people that we're afraid of. And why is a this is a class four felony. In most cases in Illinois, this this would be flat probation, no jail time. Because he's a Hollywood name, should we treat him more harshly than we would typically other people who file

false reports with the police? Okay, wait. Can you name me one person that filed a false report with police in your jurisdiction that took it to a jury trial and claimed he was the victim of a racial and homophobic hate crime name one well i'm sure there have been no no name one don't tell me yeah there have been who who did something like this well i don't know really of anybody anybody who faked their own assault. Their own hate crime. Most people wouldn't do that, their own hate crime, because they don't have anything to gain from it. The worst conjuring, Matthew Mangino, is the noose. The noose for a black male to have a noose put around his neck.

And then we find out, isn't this right, Alexis Tereshak? And feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'd rather know the truth. Didn't it come out that he took the noose off and then put it back on so the cops could get it in their body cam footage when they came back? He is screwing around with one of the vilest and most hated symbols in our country. What happened to so many black males? Awful, awful history. And he conjures that up like an evil magician and puts it on and takes it off for effect. Yes. Hell yes, he ought to be in jail.

Isn't that what happened? Alexis Tereschuk? It is. And in fact, he said that these random attackers put this noose on him. The brothers were on video at a store buying the rope. They didn't do this of their own. This wasn't their idea. They did this because he told them what to buy,

because this would have made the crime more salacious. And Matthew Mangino, I mean, a renowned lawyer and author, former district attorney, now private lawyer. Matthew Mangino, you're telling me that, hey, this happens all the time. They don't go to jail. B.S. This does not happen all the time. To prey on the fears of people all across the country, to prey on hatred and injustice and use it for a PR boost to get a raise and your salary.

Oh, no, no. He needs to be in jail, Mangino. Well, again, you know, we're mad at him. We're angry at him. But again, is he a threat to society? Is he a person who we should be afraid of, who's going to be turned loose on the streets? I mean, you know, if he wasn't a celebrity, we would have heard nothing about this case. You know, the fact that he's a celebrity, the fact that he has a platform, he's an actor. It doesn't matter. That's the whole, if a tree falls in the forest, does anybody hear it? Yeah. It can be heard, even if you're not there. It still makes a sound whether he's a celebrity or not. He did this thing. Right. And people in similar situations who are convicted of Class 4 felonies in Illinois don't go to jail.

But you haven't been able to name another similar situation, have you? Another actor who's done something like this? No, I don't know of any other actor. Or anyone, anyone that's done something like this, preyed on prejudices and hate and a horrible, hateful history of targeting people. And the worst conjuring of all, the noose. I mean, it goes on and on and on. I want to go to Paul Zyke, former police commander, author of Stop Him From Killing Them on Amazon Kindle. Paul Zyke, what do you think?

Well, I think you had two dozen detectives that engaged in 3,000 hours plus of investigation to bring an offender to justice that did not exist. And the fact that the officers were chasing essentially a ghost is something they're not equipped, really. And you could go two careers without finding this exact situation where a top flight actor or any sort of high profile individual or any victim, so to speak, would make up an entire story and have props and have all these other things to make you believe that these terrible things had happened. Furthermore, it also opens the door for an arrest to be made of the wrong people or people that never were involved. You know. We're so worried about people being in prison who have 20, 30 years ago didn't do what they were accused of doing. This exact setup, this exact

paradigm could have created a situation where if they believed him and not these other individuals, the people that he hired to commit these crimes, they could be in prison for the next 20 years. And who's looking at that? And not to mention the political motivation behind it, all that's just sickening. And it really, for me and law enforcement, as in me as a human being, it is the worst within mankind for something like this to happen to be completely false. And nobody's really prepared for that. But guess what? It happens and it just did.

You know, Paul, go ahead. I'll circle back to site. Go ahead. Yeah. OK, real quick. This is this is my advantage you know and again you know i understand that the time that was put into this case but you had 25 police officers investigating a false report to the police there were 800 homicides whoa wait a minute wait a minute

you had all these cops investigating what they believe to be a hate crime, a possible attempted murder even by putting a noose around his neck on a celebrity because he's black, because he's gay. That's what they were investigating. And then all roads led back to

Jussie Smollett. They found the perp, all right. It was Smollett. Yeah, but let's put it in perspective. 800 homicides in Chicago, and you've got 25 police officers investigating this incident? Uh-uh. No, you are not turning this back around on the cops. They think that someone out there... Wait, wait.

Alexis Tereshak, at some point, did he say that the perps threw bleach on him? He did. Oh, dear Lord in heaven. I mean, come on, Zyke. Help me out here. You hear me and Gino. If you believe that there are perps out there that are throwing bleach on a victim, beating them, wrapping a noose around their neck, taunting them, Yeah, you're going to look for the perps. And then the fact that the victim's a celebrity making this crime high profile, giving your city

a black eye. Yes, the cops are all over a potential hate crime because hate doesn't die. That perp will do it again and again and release his hate in another way. The perp had to be stopped. And you've got Mangino trying to turn this around on a cop. So there's that question. But this is what I was going to ask you earlier. It makes me think, what's it all for? Why did I beat my brains out trying to put bad guys behind bars every day,

working until 3 and 4 in the morning sometimes for this, for the perp to be let out. How do you think the Osindoro brothers feel? How do you think the Girards feel? The cops who stand by and see all that work, all that effort, for what? What about it, Zyke? Well, here's the thing. We talked about those 24 officers, and you can imagine the emotions they're going through.

They're PO'd. I bet they feel defeated. Defeated. Absolutely. They put all that in for nothing. Any good cop that's worth their weight, and there's a lot of them in this country, by the way, take that as a personal insult that somebody in their city could possibly be the victim of a hate crime and have all these heinous things done

to them. Their position is going to be, I'm not going home. I'm not going to bed until I find the people that did this and bring them to justice. Not on my watch. And to have all that be turned around and be an absolute farce and just sham of the criminal justice system, those officers, I guarantee you, are defeated. Hell, they may even need counseling at the end of that. I mean, when you work that hard, I mean, Alexis Therese Chuck, you have been around me when I've been working on a case. I live it. I breathe it. I eat it. I drink it. That's what I think about until it's solved.

And that can take days, weeks, months, sometimes longer. And when you finally crack a case, it finally goes to trial. And then this? I mean, I agree with Zyke. It's just such a defeat for everyone that worked the case. And, you know, the police officers, they, in the very beginning, believed him. They believed Smollett. They actually were stopping so many people because he had given a description of his attackers. So they were questioning everybody in town. They were going to find the perpetrators.

Little did they know they were his two friends that he was hanging out with all the time that he paid to do this. But they were very serious about trying to find the suspect. Don't you know that prosecutor is beside himself? Take a listen to our cut V4. This jury worked so hard and for Mr. Smollett to get up in front of them and lie for hours and hours and hours, that really compounded his misconduct. And quite frankly, when I saw that happen in the courtroom, at least for me as a trial lawyer that spent my life in the courtroom, we don't expect defendants to do that. Defendants have a right to go to trial. Defendants have a right to argue that their case has not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. But defendants do not have the right to go

in front of a jury and lie under oath. Mr. Smollett would not have lost this case as he did today unless the jury found that he lied to them. And so that was something that I was very proud that this jury came to the conclusion that he's guilty. And the fact that he came up with a completely ridiculous story to explain his misconduct did not apparently have an impact on the jury's verdict. Boy, I'd love to hear what the jurors have to say today. Take a listen now to our cut. The four a alpha. There's two things that I think stuck with the jury. Number one, I think my basic argument that it is ridiculous to think that Smollett left his apartment on the night of January 29th

at 2 o'clock in the morning to go buy eggs, and that that's his explanation for why he ended up right at that intersection, right at 2 o'clock in the morning, that the brothers said is where he told them the attacks should take place. So the fact that it actually happened that way, I think, was pretty profound. I also think that sometimes it's simple things. He actually rigged that rope after that rope got put on him. I showed the picture to the jury. Pictures don't lie. Those pictures showed that he actually, after he went through this fake attack, wanted to make it look better, and he jimmied with the rope to make the noose look closer to

his throat and rustled around because the rope you saw in the courtroom was nice and neat around his neck because old Austin Darrell didn't have time to do much with it because a car came. And so he ran away. He left the rope next to his face. Smollett got up, put it around his neck, and then when it didn't look bad enough, he changed it. And I think that impacted the jury. Alexis Tereshchuk, is it true that Smollett refused to eat? It sounds like a child refusing to eat, having a little tantrum. He wouldn't eat behind bars. And for Pete's sake, it's the local jail. Anybody ever seen Andy and Mayberry? For Pete's sake, when Otis would let himself in and out? It's not like he's in The Pen.

He's not in Alcatraz. He's not in Max Security in the hole, for Pete's sake. He wouldn't eat. So he claimed that he had given up food for Lent. So he was fasting for the entire duration of Lent, the 40 days of Lent. So he says that he gave up food six days before he actually was sentenced to jail. So he, I guess at this point, is now not eating for 11 days. I bet it was a religious thing. So he was going to starve for 40 days. He was not going to eat for 40 days, the 40 days preceding Easter. Do I understand you? Yes. Okay, that's

a lie. There's no way Jussie Smollett was not going to eat for 40 days. That's just not true. But fine. Another lie by Jussie Smollett and now he's dragging Easter into it. Did you hear that, Mangino? He's dragging Easter in.

Well, the only person I know that fasted for 40 days was jesus and just do not do not start on him don't do not i don't even want to hear him dragged into this conversation for pete's sake but i do agree that you're right that's the only person i've ever known to starve themselves for 40 days and 40 nights uh And although he was greatly tempted, he didn't give in. Smollett, however, is still lying through his teeth. So Alexis Tereshchuk, he had nothing but water behind bars. Correct. The mean streets of the Cook County local jail, right? It is. But the Cook County jail is not a cush jail. It is a notoriously bad jail.

Well, what do you think jail is, Alexis Teresha? Where are you joining me from? Rodeo Drive this morning? No, I'm not on Rodeo Drive, but I am in Los Angeles. But jail is jail, but the Cook County jail is Cush bad as well. It's not a nice one. Well, it's jail. What do you want it to be? A spa? Well, I also think that he was

getting fairly special treatment, but they said that they were... Well, you're right about that. Didn't he get moved from one place to the next so he could be... What, did he go to the medical ward so he could have a different surrounding? He was in...

You know what? Take a listen to our cut, see, this is Leah Hope, ABC 7. Four days into the 150-day sentence, Jussie Smollett remains in protective custody at the Cook County Jail, and his family remains steadfast in their support of the former TV star who was convicted for lying to police about a hate crime hoax. He's very strong. It's a very angering situation. It's been a complete mental marathon for him and my family. But he's very strong. He's very focused. Smollett's youngest brother visited him yesterday at the jail, where Smollett is in a cell by himself and being monitored in the medical wing.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Let me go straight out to Matthew Mangino, a high-profile lawyer joining me. Matthew, the medical wing is a cushy area. You're not in general population. There are very few inmates in there. There are nurses walking around. They're measuring your hydration and your pulse and all that.

Why was he in the medical wing? Well, you're right that the medical wing is like a hospital within a correctional facility. You know, maybe it's because he was starving himself. I don't know. You know, that's curious that he would be in the medical wing other than his absurd fasting. But again, should he even be in jail is the question. I believe that the jury decided that. And you're still talking about it? The jury decided he was guilty. The judge decided that he had to go to jail. And again, if you're going to look at similar class four felonies in Illinois, they don't involve jail. Again, again, Matthew Mangino, you keep talking about similar crimes, but yet you have been unable to name one crime that you can specify that is similar to this crime.

The breadth of his hoax on Lady Justice is beyond compare and still lying through his teeth as he sips ice water. Take a listen to our cut E from Fox. Jussie Smollett going free at least for now while he tries to get his sentence overturned. The appeals court ordered Jesse's release during the appeals process. He will first have to post a bond of $150,000 before he's let out of Cook County Jail, although it's unclear when exactly he'll be able to walk free. Jesse started serving his five months last Thursday and immediately after the judge sentenced him, he started shouting that he was innocent and raising his fist in the air as he was taken out of the court in handcuffs. You can see those tense moments inside of the courtroom in

this video. His defense team and his family members never stopped asking for his release claiming that Jesse was in physical harm while behind bars. They cited racist and homophobic threats that they had received and also said Jussie was highly susceptible to contracting COVID-19 while in jail. So that's the latest when it comes to the Jussie Smollett saga here. Really? Racist and homophobic threats? Again? That second verse,

same as the first Alexis Tereszczuk, that's what he claimed the first time. For all I know, it's Smollett from the Cook County pay phone calling his family. I mean, they're tuning up with that again? I mean, if these threats were real, it would be different, but they've already been proved to be a lie,

which does an injustice to every hate crime victim out there that has been targeted because they're black, because they're gay, because they're Asian, because they're a woman, because they're fill in the blank, hate, hate, because of who you are. And they're, they're preying on that again? You know, prisoners that are, that are incarcerated complain all the time about how they have so little access to the outside world. It's very expensive to make a phone call. The calls are collect, number one. But go ahead. They're saying after five days that social media, Twitter, Instagram is affecting how Jesse is or Mr. Smollett is being treated behind bars doesn't compute.

It just doesn't make sense that they think people who are saying things about him on social media would then somehow affect people behind bars as if that information has infiltrated, you know, some sort of scary group behind bars is going to then target Smollett. It defies logic. You know, Matthew Mangino, high profile lawyer, is joining us, former district attorney in Lawrence County, now author. Matthew, how many times has one of your clients gotten an appeal bond, which means after you're convicted at trial, typically by a jury, the judge says, oh, you know what? Never mind about that conviction thing. You're going to

walk free to an appeals court. For instance, the Illinois Supreme Court rules on your case. And then after they rule, maybe you can appeal it on up to the circuit court of appeals. And after that, hey, maybe you can take it all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. You just don't know how far this appeal is going to go. But the whole time, you can stay out behind bars. I mean, why even have a jury trial? Well, to answer your question, you know, it's not entirely unusual to get an appeal bond. How many have you had? Well, I'm just, just let me finish. It's not entirely unusual to get one from a trial judge who heard the case, who thinks that maybe you have an appeal that has some merit to it, uh, based on him having observed the trial. So,

you know, he may grant that it is unusual to within five days at least in my experience to have an appellate court intervene and say this person should have an appeal bond over the denial of the trial judge that's unusual i i i can't say that i've ever seen that can i ask you a question yes how many times as a prosecutor did you get a conviction on a case and then that person get out on an appeal bond? It's rare. Ever? Because I never had it happen to me as a prosecutor. Not once did one person that I took to trial and there was a conviction get out while they appealed the conviction.

That never happened. And that was 10 solid years of inner city Atlanta high crime. I mean, I don't disagree with you. So never. Never in your history. But if you have a trial judge. You're not answering. I'm sorry, Matthew Mangino.

You're not answering. How often did that ever happen to you? Did it ever happen? I would say a couple of times maybe in eight years as a as a prosecutor. What did he say? Where a judge granted an appeal bond when, in fact, that judge thought. Oh, one of your cases. I didn't hear the number. I'd say a couple. You know, as a district attorney, every case was mine.

So I'd say a couple of times it's happened. All right. I've never had it happen. Who's jumping in? Is that Paul Zeit? Yeah, Nancy, I'd just like to make a quick comment. And that is, you know, when you look at this from the flip side, let's just say he would have been successful. Let's say that his plot would not have been discovered. He

essentially would be setting up one or two or more people to spend, you know, a decade or two behind bars just to promote his career. And that angle is not really being thought of in this. Yeah, he lied. Yes, he wasted a lot of time. Yes, he had a lot of resources diverted to him. But if his end game would have happened, the perversion of justice would have been unimaginable. You know, you're right. Those Sandaro brothers could have gone down for years on end for a hate crime, for throwing bleach on Smollett, for beating him up, for attacking him in the night, putting a noose around his neck.

Dr. Sherry Schwartz, what exactly is a pathological liar? Well, this is somebody who, I mean, to put it really simply, if their lips are moving, they're lying. That's how you can think about them because the lies literally just come out of their mouths with great deal of ease. Research on pathological liars shows that if they if they're hooked up to like an EKG right to check their pulse and things like that that they lie and they really don't experience that same kind of physical reaction that somebody who's telling a lie that doesn't normally lie would like anxiety and things like that heightened arousal, they just lie for the sake of lying.

Lie for the sake of lying. To Alexis Teresha, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, Smollett's lawyers filed what we call an emergency motion, claiming that if he stayed in jail, he would have a physical threat, even though he was being held in protective custody. What are the grounds on which his defense lawyers argued he should be out on appeal bond? Well, that is what they say. They say that he is in danger of being threatened by people. But they also said this appeal could take months and months and months, much longer than the 150 days that our client has been sentenced to jail.

So if in the very end, you know, one year from now, his appeal is granted and his conviction is overturned, he will have already served that time. And you can't take that back. You can't. There's no way to fix that you serve time that you weren't supposed to ultimately serve. So that is what they argued, that the appeal would take longer than the sentence would. So he should be out on bond during that time. And in fact, they imposed one on him, $150,000. And they said, but he didn't have to pay that up front. But if he misses any more court cases,

he's gonna have to pay that. So many allowances made for this. Jesse Smollett somehow has pulled yet another hoax on an appeals court. Jussie Smollett, Empire star, hate crime faker, has walked free. He has been released from jail while his lawyers appeal his conviction.

Big black eye for lady justice and crime victims all across our country. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye. This is an iHeart Podcast.