Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - SHOCK! TWO AMERICAN TEENS ON VACATION STAB ITALIAN COP/NEW GROOM DEAD

Episode Date: July 31, 2019

Two American teens jailed in Rome, accused of killing an Italian policeman. Finnegan Lee Elder, 19, and Gabriel Christian Natale-Hjorth, 18 were approached by the plain clothes officers after they tried to extort money and cocaine from a drug dealer. Deputy Brigadier Mario Cerciello Rega, 35, a newlywed, was stabbed 11 times. Joining Nancy Grace to discuss the case, Psychiatrist Dr Daniel Bober, Forensics Expert Joseph Scott Morgan. Retired Chief Medical Examiner for the State of Georgia Dr Kris Sperry and Crime Stories reporter Dave Mack. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. neighborhood in a drug deal gone bad. They say the two Americans allegedly approached a man asking where they could buy drugs. That man led them to a dealer who police say sold them fake cocaine. The two growing angry, allegedly going back to the scene and stealing the backpack of the man who pointed them to the drug dealer. This surveillance video capturing two men running away after the theft. Police say the man called his own phone that was in the stolen bag and spoke to the two Americans. He says they offered him an exchange, his bag for a gram of cocaine and 100 euros. But he went to the police instead, who set up an undercover operation. That ended with the officer stabbed eight times. Why do I care what happened

in Italy? Because two American tourists, teens age 18 and 19, are not the alleged victims this time. I'm always covering when an American is hurt overseas. This time, two American men are charged with murdering a police officer over what? Some fake dope. I am just sick to my stomach. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. What in the world were these two thinking? You're hearing from our friend at ABC News, Ian Pennell. But take a listen to more of what Ian has to say. Police say the two men then returned to their hotel not far away, preparing to leave the country when police swooped in.

Both teens allegedly confessing after investigators say they found overwhelming evidence in the room including the supposed murder weapon cleverly concealed behind one of the ceiling tiles and bloody clothing but at a hearing this weekend both americans waived their right to speak a public defender for finnegan elder saying his client wasn't well and psychologically tried. Back in San Francisco, some who knew him shocked. I've never seen Finnegan do anything, anything. He's always been super nice to me. The Elder family releasing a statement saying we've not been able to communicate with our son, adding, as any parents would be, we've not been able to communicate with our son, adding,

as any parents would be, we're deeply concerned. Well, we've been hearing the exact opposite about their behavior in the neighborhood. Joining me right now to break it down and put it back together again, an all-star panel, California prosecutor, author of Red Flags on Amazon, Wendy Patchett. She knows her way around the courthouse. Renowned forensic psychiatrist, Dr. Daniel Bober. Joining me, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, Joseph Scott Morgan.

Also with us, former chief medical examiner, Dr. Chris Sperry. Right now to CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, Dave McDave. Just start at the beginning. Now, I know your impulse is to rush to the headline, but please start at A, we'll get to Z. What were these two doing unchaperoned in Italy to start with? Well, these are two high school friends who just wrapped up their first year at junior college. Gabrielle Christian Natale Horth actually has family in Italy. He and Finn, that's what they call this guy, Finn Elder, like I said, they're friends in Northern California. And Natalia Horth invited him to vacation in Italy with some of Natalia Horth's family.

That's why they were there unattended on this vacation. For those of you just joining us, two American tourists age 18 and 19 allegedly confess to killing an Italian police officer in an undercover sting. They were trying to recover a backpack they stole in Rome during a botched drug deal where they were given aspirin instead of cocaine. You know, Wendy Patrick, it's bringing to mind, as a matter of fact, Dr. Crisperi, I think you were actually the medical examiner that I called to the stand on this case. I know you don't remember it, but I do. Wendy Patrick, I remember how shocked I was. A mother was shot dead. She had been sitting in her front yard in a, you know, those fold up lounge chair things.

And it was hot outside. And a guy came up, a doper came up and said, hey, you know this guy? She goes, yeah. Well, the guy was a doper in the neighborhood, you know, a neighborhood doper. Just like all these neighbors in their California neighborhood are going, yes, he was such a nice boy. So this lady goes, yeah, I know him. So the man buys dope from the guy. The dope turned out to be bad. He goes back and shoots the woman, shoots her dead. She's still sitting there on her lounge chair, minding her own business.

I remember his name, Zellner. That was the defendant's name. I think Leonard Zellner. But long story short, Wendy Patrick, aspirin for cocaine, it sounds like a bunch of idiots to us, but when you're a dope addict, that's serious. That's exactly true, Nancy, and that's something that it's hard to comprehend, looking in from the outside. As you say, this is a life and death scenario, unfortunately, quite literally to somebody who's an addict. And that's what expert witnesses at trial are for, to explain this dynamic to the jury. How could one become so angry that murder is the answer to being sold a false drug so you're absolutely right

and that god bless that poor lady how awful to be in the scenario or i should say the surviving family members at this point to have to vouch for somebody that in her eyes seemed so nice it's like the axe murder next door, Nancy, isn't it? You have no idea the people that really live around you when all you do is wave to them in the morning before you go to work. Now, the two teens are said to have told cops they had been looking to buy drugs in Rome's Trastevere district at 2 a.m., but were sold crushed aspirin instead. You know, to Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist joining me, that sounds like the idiots that call 911 and say somebody stole their dope. Okay, what do they think is going to happen?

So these guys are telling the cops that they committed a murder because they were wronged. They were sold crushed aspirin instead of cocaine. that they committed a murder because they were wronged, they were soul-crushed aspirin instead of cocaine, like a cop is going to care? What's that thinking? Yeah, it makes absolutely no sense. It sounds like something teenagers would do, and I don't want to go down that road of saying, you know, teenagers can be impulsive and they don't think it through,

but it is pretty stupid. We're learning that two San Francisco teens on a, quote, drug holiday in Rome have been arrested in the Italian capital on charges of murder and attempted extortion in connection with the fatal stabbing of a police officer. A police officer. Reportedly, one of the teens, the 19-year-old Finnegan, confessed to stabbing a 35-year-old paramilitary cop, Mario Turchielli Rega, to death during an apparent drug deal gone wrong. The second Californian, Christian Horth, 18, was also involved in the scuffle that led to the cop's death. Now, in a statement, Rome police revealed that both men had been interrogated. In the face of overwhelming evidence, they eventually confessed to the crime.

Uh-oh, I don't know what that means. But, hey, you ain't in Kansas anymore, people. You don't have the Constitution protecting you from interrogation. You've got an alleged cop killer. What do you think happened behind bars? What we know is this. Two teen Americans being held for murder in Italy. And it is not looking good.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. There may be shock and disbelief back home in America, but here in Italy, it's anger and outrage. This has become a huge political issue. It's on the front pages of all the newspapers. He's leading all the TV news. And now the deputy prime minister of Italy tweeting, saying that the two men held inside this jail should be given life with hard labor. Uh-uh.

Mm-mm. That is from ABC's Ian Pennell reporting there in Italy. Back to Dave Mack, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Dave Mack, uh... You kill a cop in another country? Over here, when you kill a cop, you're really treated with kid gloves because the cops know everybody's going to be watching their every move. I've got a pretty strong feeling it's not like that in Italy. Nancy, the people of Italy, and this is a

nationwide story. They are beyond apoplectic. This man is a heroic figure. At 35 years old, you realize he was a newlywed. Nancy, they had to hold the guy's funeral in the same place where he got married just six weeks earlier. The people of Italy are just beside themselves. They've been in the streets. They've built a makeshift shrine at the scene of this crime. And politicians, you know, the prime minister was there consoling his newlywed bride slash widow at the funeral. We've got politicians that are tweeting out incredible things before this has even seen its day in court yet. So, yeah, the people of Italy are not going to stand for this. Oh my stars.

They're probably all mad anyway over Amanda Knox still. Because in Italy, everybody thinks Amanda Knox committed murder on Meredith Kircher, her remake. Remember Foxy Noxy? And now two Americans come over there and kill a cop, according to police. We know that the cop Regaaga, had just, as Dave Mack said, come back to work from his honeymoon. This is very compelling to me. To Dr. Chris Sperry, former chief medical examiner, and that doesn't just happen overnight, people.

You go to school, You go to medical school. You work your way up. You do the night shifts. You literally perform thousands, thousands of autopsies. And then somehow you land as the chief medical examiner. Listen to this, Dr. Sperry. Eight stab wounds to his back, important, and his chest. One of the injuries, apparently, having struck his heart.

Dr. Sperry, this cop never had a chance, but what is jumping out to me, probatively, in other words, what does it prove to me? Does it prove anything? He was literally stabbed in the back, Dr. Sperry. Yes, he was taken by surprise to a great extent. He may have been trying to escape, but clearly one of the assailants jumped on him from the back. And stabbings are up close and personal between two or more people. So there's a struggle going on. The cop doesn't have a chance. And once he starts getting stabbed in the back, it's just a matter of time before he loses so much blood that he can't struggle anymore. Once the stab wound hit the heart,

he had maybe 10 or 12 seconds of consciousness, and then it started to be all over. Dr. Sperry, you've always been pretty stoic, and I've known you for a really long time. We were together a lot in court. Sadly for you, I ambushed you many, many times at the medical examiner's office during autopsies. We've been out and broken bread together at lunch. I've never seen you get broken up over a victim. You're very, very, let me just say, what's that word? Sterile about the whole thing, which is what a prosecutor needs when somebody's up on the stand. But does it ever bother you? I mean, recounting this about how he's newlywed. And when Dave Mack just told me that,

about how they just had the wedding in that cathedral, and now it's the funeral. Six weeks later, I'm looking at pictures of him showing off his wedding ring. Thank you, Jackie, for making me feel even worse showing that picture to me while I'm trying to talk. But does it ever get to you? I mean, how many autopsies have you performed, Sperry? I've done over 6,800 myself and seen over 100,000 others. Not that you're counting. 6,800. Good Lord. When you're driving home, you know, after autopsies, do you ever think about the backstory or do you just have to keep your head straight? See, I can never keep my head

out of the emotions of a case and what victims and their families were going through. How do you do it or do you do it? Well, we build up a wall. You know, I don't think about things too much. But I still have to think about them. If I didn't, I'd be a robot. I wouldn't be human. And there's some things that get through the cracks in that wall that are very disturbing that I can't help but think about. Yeah, I remember when we had lunch one time, I was talking about one of the dead bodies and what happened and telling I'd been out trying to find the location and take pictures with what was in a Polaroid camera and was telling about the victim and what they had gone through. And you turned around and went, two tuna rolls. You know, you ordered your sushi.

I'm like, okay, obviously I'm too emotionally involved in this case, and I should not be dragging down the chief medical examiner with my angst. Joe Scott Morgan, let's get back to the evidence. With me, forensics expert and author of Blood Beneath My Feet, Joseph Scott Morgan. Okay, what do we have, if anything? How do I know, other than the stabs in the back, which tells me the guy was trying to get away or was already down? What do we have forensically? How is the state going to prove this case? Or are they? Yeah, I was kind of laughing a bit a second

ago when he said the reporter on the air was talking about how they brilliantly hid the knife somewhere in the room. I'm thinking, this is not a sign of high intelligence here. These kids are probably going to have a tremendous amount of trace evidence, particularly the perpetrator that's left behind. And then ultimately you have the murder weapon that's hid in the room where they're staying. So you've got connection that's going back here. One of the victims or one of the perpetrators alleged that the victim had grabbed him by the neck in order to try to corral him in this set of circumstances, once he realized that the kid was breaking the law.

And I think, I would imagine, the Italian authorities went some distance to try to document that information as well. Did he or did he not have marks on his neck? Or was this just an ambush killing this poor fellow, who, as you stated, had just recently returned? Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Hold on. Let's talk about the facts as to whether it was an ambush killing. Because that, I mean, in America, this would be a death penalty case.

You kill a cop plus an ambush. You lay in wait. That's two aggravating circumstances right there. But as far as ambush, let me understand the facts. Wendy Patrick, veteran California prosecutor, they had bought what they thought was cocaine. It turned out to be crushed aspirin and they go back. So that tells me right there it was an ambush. Yeah, those are the kinds of facts, Nancy, you're exactly right, that we're going to want to focus on. This wasn't something that happened at the spur of the moment in those types of circumstances.

So absolutely, that's the kind of thing you're going to be looking at and determining what was their mindset at the time of the killing. Guys, we are talking about two Americans now charged with not only murder in Italy, but murder of a police officer. Dave Mack, where are they being held and what are their conditions? Right now they're being held in what we would look at as a county jail. They're actually in an area that's a holding area for suspects, and they can be held for up to a year without being charged with a crime. Italy has things a little bit different than we do. So they're in jail right now, and they're being held in isolation.

They're not together. They're actually being held in isolation, separated from one another and separated from everybody else that's in this particular jail. Guys, I want to tell you about something very important to me. I hope you can join me this Saturday, 6 o'clock Eastern, 5 Central, on Oxygen for Injustice with Nancy Grace. I think about this woman so often, Michelle Mottby. She got up super early one morning, got her coffee in her car, checked on her two little girls, and headed off to work early.

She wanted to take a few days off at the end of the week to spend time with her children and her husband. So she goes to work, this big, huge, sprawling laboratory and processing center, Thermo Fisher. She was head of HR. She never saw her children alive again. She was brutally murdered at work, the perp dragging her body,

leaving a trail of blood from her office. Who in that sprawling lab had an ax to grind with Mom, Michelle Mottby? Who sentenced her little girls to life without a mom? We reinvestigate the case. Shining lights on what really happened. Please join us Saturday, Oxygen, 6 o'clock Eastern, 5 Central, in the case of the murder of mom Michelle Mockbee.

We want justice. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Both suspects graduated from Tamalpais High School in 2018. the suspect's name. The suspect's name is not known. They're both suspects. Graduated from Tampa Pius High School in 2018. Some people who know them say they're not too surprised by the arrest. Italian police say both

suspects are 19 years old vacationing in Rome. Finnegan Elder from San Francisco and Gabriel Natale Horth from Mill Valley. I've known Vincent since he was born, and I'm in shock. He's the nicest guy, one of the nicest neighbors. Another neighbor wasn't too surprised about the arrest, saying Elder was a troublemaker and had gone drunk and thrown up in front of their home. I've kind of always known that he's a bit of a bad guy.

This Tamalpais High student is talking about the second suspect, Gabriel Natale. He apparently had a reputation for beating up kids. He would come up in stories of just like activities you wouldn't want your kids getting into. So he's kind of been known around town as like a sort of delinquent character. Audacity of going and doing that in another country is frightening, but I just think it's disgusting to kill a police officer when they're keeping everyone safe. You're hearing from our friend Dot Lynn at KPIX San Francisco. So people in the neighborhood, most of them anyway, not surprised at all these two have gotten in trouble, but killing a cop in Italy, a newlywed cop to top it off.

Now, Finnegan, one of the two, later claimed to investigators that neither Rega, the victim, or the second officer, Varielli, identified themselves as police. In a separate interview, Horth completely contradicted that claim and admitted both of the cops had disclosed who they were, that they were cops. Quote, to ask for help and give a description of the two attackers. I can't imagine that moment out on the street when your partner is stabbed dead in the back. What do we know about these two? We know that some people in the neighborhood say that they were wonderful. Others say they had a long history of misbehavior.

But I want you to take a listen to this. Tonight, Italian police on defense after this leaked photo showing one of the American teens accused of murdering a Roman police officer blindfolded and handcuffed. His head down inside a police station, the image splashed across Italian media. The police commissioner calling what happened illegal and a mistake. Officials say the image was taken after suspects Gabe Natale Hjorst and Finnegan Elder were taken in for questioning. And according to police, confessed to being involved in the incident that led to the fatal stabbing of newlywed officer Mario Chertiello Rega. You're hearing our friend at ABC News, Ian Pinnell. Did you hear that, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor? I've seen the photo of one of the teens handcuffed and blindfolded. Oh, honey, if that happened in the

U.S., all H-E-double-L would break loose. Blindfolding and handcuffing at the same time. A defendant blindfolding, that would never wash here. That's right. It would never happen here. We're very careful to ensure that everybody is treated with respect and dignity and whether you're in and out of custody and whether you're a criminal suspect or not. So you're right, Nancy, that's definitely going to play a role in what happens next. And in terms of what the confession was like, what the circumstances were like, what prompted it. Remember, you and I have both been in court when false confession experts have been called by the defense and have relayed facts and

circumstances that might lead to such actually happening at a police station. So yes, it's important. It may not be the absolutely end all in terms of how we view that resulting confession, but certainly it's a huge factor. And viscerally, we don't even like looking at a photo like that regardless of what somebody is accused of. You're absolutely right. Big difference though to Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, between a false confession and a coerced confession.

A false confession is when you confess to something you didn't do. A coerced confession is when they beat you, threaten you, torture you until you give a confession. I don't think that there's really any doubt. I mean, hold on to Joe Scott Morgan, forensics expert, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott, isn't there CCTV, closed circuit TV footage of some of this? Yeah, I was just taking a look at it, Nancy.

And you can see two subjects blasting full speed down the street. They run, you know, into frame and then past it. As a matter of fact, I think that if they apply some technology to this, they might be able to even clarify the video a little bit because you've got kind of a peripheral view of their faces as they're running toward the camera and then around the corner. So from an evidentiary standpoint, I think that's going to be kind of powerful. I got to say something really quick, you know, relative to these kids. Now, it wasn't as an egregious offense, but this takes me all the way back to 1994. Nancy, with a name we might not have talked about in a while, and that's Michael Fay in Singapore, where you've got

this kid that comes into another country and begins to vandalize vehicles, if I remember correctly. And he was actually caned for doing that. And it created a huge media storm. Now, you take that and you kick it up a notch. This guy is a national hero that they have literally slaughtered. And I'm sorry, you know, the rules, the rules of the game change when you go overseas, you cannot behave this way. People in that country do not attack police officers and certainly paramilitary officers. And I think they're going to have a really tough road in front of them. Back it up for me just a moment to crimeonline.com, investigative reporter, Crime Online, where you can find this and all other breaking crime and justice news online.

Dave Mack, investigative reporter, just one more time for me. Start at the beginning. Go slowly because every third word you say means something to me probatively as far as what it can prove or not prove in court. Okay. Well, Gabrielle Nucristian Natale Horth and Finnegan Lee Elder, they both went to school together just north of San Francisco. High school friends who actually attended junior college for their first year and were on summer break from that first year of junior college.

Gabriel Christian Natale-Horth, he's got family in Italy. He invited Finn Elder to go with him to spend the summer vacation in Italy. That's why they were there. A little sidebar to all of this is that Finnegan Lee Elder, he actually traveled from the United States to Italy with the knife that was allegedly used to kill the police officer. It was his knife. They arrive in Italy. They've done a bunch of shopping. We've seen some pictures of apparently Natale Horth is actually kind of a show-off and a braggart about his family's money. We actually have pictures of

him posing outside of the Gucci flagship store. Oh, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. They're rich brats. Is that what you're telling me? Apparently so. Oh, cool. And likes to brag. Go ahead, sorry. And apparently he likes to brag about it by posting photos online and back to what some of the high school students said who actually went to school with him said they were constantly bragging about money and what their families had so now they're on this italian summer vacation can you imagine i would be so mortified if i caught one of the twins bragging about anything whether it's a new pair of shoes or a trip to Six Flags. I mean, I just how I'm just mortified.

OK, that's a whole I'm going down a rabbit hole on that. Go ahead. Back with the facts. OK, so they're in Italy. And apparently now I don't know, Nancy, if they were scheduled to leave town or if they were leaving town because of this murder. But when police traveled back to the apartment or the hotel slash apartment, they were staying. The guys were packing and getting ready to leave town that day. Again, I don't know if that was planned ahead of time or if this was just happenstance. But as you notice, it started at two o'clock in the morning.

They try to buy cocaine off the street. They get sold some aspirin instead. They go back and challenge this drug dealer and steal the drug dealer's backpack. That's the picture you see them running. That's right after they have stolen the backpack from the alleged drug dealer. The drug dealer then calls his phone. It's in the backpack. And he talks to these guys.

And they arrange a trade. They're saying, we still want our gram of cocaine. And now want you to give us a hundred dollars for the euros as well he calls the police the police then set up a sting they show up uh the police officers are in plain clothes and they meet up with uh natalie horth and finnegan lee elder at later in the morning that's where the crime occurred, the attack, when the boys think they're going to get cocaine and money, and instead they're actually dealing with two police officers who are now taking them under arrest.

It was during that struggle that Finn Elder started stabbing the heroic cop, and Natalia Horth started physically attacking the partner. So it was an all-out fight to the death right there on the street with finnegan lee elder knifing this heroic cop with a knife he brought with him for this italian vacation crime stories with nancy grace a tribute to the slain officer has been growing today on the rome street corner where mario churchello rega a 35 year old newlywed and officer for the carabinieri police force was stabbed to death the 19 year oldyear-old American suspects, whom police say confessed,

are being held inside Regina Celi Prison, where they met with their lawyers today. I found he was stressed, that's for sure, Finnegan Lee Elder's lawyer said, but I don't think it's appropriate to do interviews. You're hearing from our friend CBS News' Seth Doan. I guess he is stressed. He's charged in murdering a cop. We are also learning the judge, a judge says the American teens accused of killing the Italian police officer displayed, quote, total absence of self-control. And the reality is, even if they were out looking for dope, but even if they were high, to Wendy

Patrick, veteran California prosecutor in America, the voluntary use of drugs or alcohol is not, is rarely ever a defense. In fact, for it to be a defense, you have to be totally comatose. You have to be passed out. And even then, it's questionable. So if they were high on dope or alcohol, that's not going to make a difference under the law in America. That's right, Nancy. There are certain narrow circumstances where voluntary intoxication can be a defense to certain specific intent crimes, but that's more the exception than the rule.

As a general rule, you're right. In fact, it may even be an aggravant in some circumstances. So, right, the fact that it's being even discussed in connection with explaining what they did would certainly not save them here. And we will be following this to see if it actually plays a role over there as well. I am just learning new information. Now, this is according to the San Francisco Chronicle that one of the two American teens now charged in killing a cop had punched a fellow student, punched a fellow high school student at a party in Stern Grove that left the victim with a severe brain injury. Whoa. Finnegan Lee Elder, who's now accused of stabbing the newlywed cop dead, stabbing him 11 times, leaving him bleeding out in the street over a botched cocaine deal. And Elder and his 18-year-old buddy, Gabriel Christian Horth, also of San Francisco, now we're learning one of them punched a friend in the face, leaving him with a brain injury. I mean, how do you do that, Dr. Crisperi?

How do you punch somebody so violently they have a brain injury? If you punch someone, especially if you hit them and they fall down and hit their head on the concrete or on the hardwood floor or something like that, that is usually where the severe brain injuries come from, is the impact against the floor. It's very hard. It's very difficult to actually cause a brain injury from a direct punch, but it's the fall, the impact that causes the brain injury. Well, Dr. Sperry, you're absolutely right. I'm reading on in the information I've just gotten.

Elder, who was 16 years old at the time, hit another 16-year-old at a wooded park, and it was kind of a nighttime gathering spot for teens, I understand. The victim, just as you said, without knowing a thing about it, struck his head, fell and struck his head. He was hospitalized with a, quote, life-threatening injury. He experienced a long recovery and has since graduated from high school and is attending college. He did not give a statement. Wow. Okay. We know that Elder turned himself in then and was one of

about 12 people suspended from the final game of the season. So he turned himself in. I mean, you would think Dr. Bober, with me, forensic psychiatrist, Dr. Daniel Bober, that he would have learned his lesson about not controlling his impulses. Unfortunately, Nancy, it's not a lesson you can really learn. You know, it's just sort of biology. It's that last part of your brain that develops when you're about 25 called the prefrontal cortex that helps with impulse control.

So that hardware is not even there. And again, that doesn't absolve them of responsibility. But impulse control is definitely something that is not a strong suit for teens. Well, he was treated in juvie court. I don't know what he got, but apparently not much because he was straight back out. Guys, for those of you just joining us, two teens now held in an Italian jail after killing a cop. I want you to take a listen to our friend at ABC News, Ian Pinnell. The police say this all began in this neighborhood, in a drug deal gone bad.

They say the two Americans allegedly approached a man asking where they could buy drugs. That man led them to a dealer who police say sold them fake cocaine. The two growing angry, allegedly going back to the scene and stealing the backpack of the man who pointed them to the drug dealer. This surveillance video capturing two men running away after the theft. Police say the man called his own phone that was in the stolen bag and spoke to the two Americans. He says they offered him an exchange, his bag for a gram of cocaine and 100 euros. But he went to the police instead, who set up an undercover operation. That ended with the officer stabbed eight times. That's ABC News' Ian Pinnell reporting from Italy to Joseph Scott Morgan,

professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, and author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Wait a minute. I remember a scene that I wrote in my first fiction, Eleventh Victim. And Haley Dean, who is the hero, the heroine in the case, was being set up for a murder. And she was looking through her Manhattan apartment trying to find where she thought someone had planted the murder weapon and she found it and it was hidden in a light fixture in her den. So she takes it and as one of the longest walks of her life goes to a local deli, goes to the lady's bathroom that she's been in many times, gets on the commode,

climbs up through the ceiling, crawls through the ceiling, and drops the knife into dirty suds in the kitchen, dishwater, and then goes back out through the bathroom. In this case, I mean, I made that up, but in this case, they find the murder weapon hidden up in the ceiling. Now, if that does not scream knowledge of wrongdoing, I don't know what does, Joe Scott Morgan.

Yeah, they purpose to conceal this weapon. And I think that probably in the Italian courts, which, by the way, move very, very slow. We've seen that in the Amanda Knox case. They will try to demonstrate this at great length. Another from a forensic standpoint, I'm wondering how well these two people may have attempted to clean this knife off, because if there is physical evidence that can be tied back to this poor man's body, that will be brought to light as well. I'm talking about blood evidence. And then, you know, at the molecular level, we're talking about DNA.

Are they going to be able to lift any of that off? And if that is the case, if that is the case, that is going to be a real nail in their coffin. We wait as justice unfolds in an Italian courtroom. And remember, these two are not shrouded in the protection of the U.S. Constitution. It's a whole another ballgame in Italy. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.