Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - SHOCK WITNESS: Alleged killer of high school football star Ahmaud Arbery bragged he shot black man "with gold teeth."

Episode Date: November 20, 2020

Two of the men charged in the shooting death of 25-year-old Ahmaud Arbery have been denied bond. The father and son pair are charged with nine counts including felony murder. They face life sentences without parole. Arbery was shot in a confrontation after the McMichaels began chasing Arbery, suspecting he was the person caught on video in homes under construction in the area.Joining Nancy Grace today: Wanda Cooper-Jones - Mother of Ahmaud Arbery Lee Merritt - Attorney for Wanda Cooper-Jones, www.leemerrittesq.com  Dr Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Beverly Hills, follow on instagram at DrBethanyMarshall Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet" featured on "Poisonous Liaisons" on True Crime Network Levi Page - Investigative reporter Crime Online Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. This is a case that will live in infamy regardless of the verdict for years to come. And in the last days, more information about the brutal shooting of a young man in the prime of his life. Why? Because of hatred, prejudice, bigotry. As the mother of twins, now 13, including a boy, the thought

that someone would follow him as he is jogging in their vehicle like they were hunting loaded with weapons and shoot my son? But according to the facts

as we know them now, that is what happened to Ahmaud Arbery. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. All across the country, people are watching this case, waiting for justice. Take a listen to this. Okay, what is he doing? He's running down the street. Okay,

okay, that's fine. I'll get them out there. I just need to know what he was doing wrong. Was he just on the premises and not supposed to be stuff on it and he's been caught on the camera a not supposed to be? That's the stuff on it. He's got an explosion stuff on it. And he's been caught on the camera a bunch before tonight. Kind of an ongoing thing out here. The man that's building the house, he's got heart issues. I think he's not going to finish this.

Okay, that's fine. And you said it was a male in a black T-shirt? A white T-shirt. Black guy, white T-shirt. And he's done back runs, he's done runs backwards. You're hearing the 911 call. And at this moment, Ahmaud Arbery is still alive. And it sounds like the guy is talking about an animal.

He's running. Look at him. Like, I don't even understand what that has to do with the 911 call, but let's hear more from the 911 call. Listen. 911, what's the address of your emergency? I'm out here at Satilla Shores. There's a black male running down the street. Satilla, where at Satilla Shores? I don't know what street we're on. Stop right there! Stop! Sir! what we were all. Stop right there. Stop. Sir. Hello, sir. Sir, where are you at? You can hear him screaming at Ahmaud Arbery to stop right there. And of course,

Ahmaud Arbery keeps running with me, an all-star panel to break it down and put it back together again. In the last day, significant advances in the case have occurred. Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of a brand new hit series, Poisonous Liaisons on True Crime Network, Joseph Scott Morgan, Death Investigator, psychoanalyst joining us from Beverly Hills on Insta, Dr. Bethany Marshall, Lee Merritt, renowned lawyer joining us, leemerrittesq4esquire.com, representing the mother of Ahmaud Arbery, who is with us now, Wanda Cooper Jones. In the last hours, there has been not only a bond hearing to let these shooters out of jail, that's the point of a bond hearing, but a preliminary hearing as well, where we learn a lot.

But I want to go first to Ms. Cooper-Jones. Ma'am, thank you for being with us. Thank you for having me. Thank you. You know, Ms. Cooper-Jones, just playing that 911 call, there was a reason I would always play it for juries, because it takes you back to the moment of the incident. But I hated playing it knowing you were listening. But I bet you've heard it before. What comes to your mind when you hear these guys ordering your son, who's out jogging,

to stop. It's really heartbreaking to know that when those calls were being placed and Amal was actually still alive, it just breaks my heart. You know, Ms. Cooper-Jones, I always wonder about the murder of my fiancé many years ago, Keith. He was shot five times in the back, the face, the neck. I wonder what he endured in the last moments of his life. I wonder about what was he thinking, what was going through his mind as this happened. Do you wonder that about Ahmad?

Every day. Every day. It's very hard to think that he was clueless on what was about to happen. I mean, my mom had began doing laundry before he went out for his job. When I returned home, his

clothes were still in the dryer, and he kept clothes also in the washer where he anticipated coming back and finishing his laundry, not knowing that he would never return. I'm just taking in what you're telling me and thinking. You know, the shooters described him being in a house that was under construction.

And I've been exactly to this neighborhood and this scene. When we were growing up, we were in such a rural area, Ms. Cooper-Jones, that when somebody would build a house, it was, you know, a wonderment. And we would all go in the house and, you know, the construction of the house and look around and say, oh, this is going to be their bedroom and this is going to be the entryway because it was open and we could go in there and see the house being built and never really thought anything of it. When you first got the news that Ahmaud had been shot, what happened?

How did you discover what had happened? I was actually in Williamsboroboro where I am today, lying on the couch with my mom. My mom was sitting in her recliner. I was lying on the couch. And I got a call from an unknown number, and I answered the call, and there was the investigator who identified the sufferer, the member of the Greene County Police Department, and told me my mom had been involved in a burglary. Wait, wait, wait.

I'm sorry. Did you just say you were told your son had been involved in a burglary? Yes, ma'am. Okay. And then he said in the midst of the burglary? Yes, ma'am. Okay. And then he said, in the midst of the burglary, Amal was still funded by the homeowner. And unfortunately, there was

a fight over the weapon and Amal was shot and killed. And he had only been out of the house how long? I wasn't there because I had traveled that weekend, so I'm not, I'm sure he wasn't gone that long because my neighbors

told me that they saw him prior to leaving the house. It was a long story. They were told that he was shot and killed, so he wasn't gone that long. for them all. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are talking about the sudden and upsetting death of a young man in the prime of his life, the apple of his mother's eye.

To this day, we're wondering why. What happened? Why did Ahmaud get chased down and shot? With me is his mother, Wanda Cooper Jones, her lawyer, Lee Merritt, and an awesome panel to make sense of it all. In the last days, there has been a bond hearing to let the shooters out of jail. That was their wish, as well as a preliminary hearing. I want to go now to Ms. Cooper-Jones' lawyer, Lee Merritt. Lee, you're a

veteran trial lawyer. A preliminary hearing is really a field day for the defense because at a prelim, it's simply the state putting up enough evidence to get the case bound over for trial or bound over, sent to the right court. Should it be a shoplifting? Should it be a misdemeanor? Should it go to felony court? But it gives the defense the opportunity to explore and test the state's witnesses that they normally don't have prior to trial. Mr. Merritt, what did you learn from the preliminary hearing? Yeah, it's often the closest thing to a deposition that you'll get in criminal court.

And I have to tell you that this preliminary hearing, the judges remarked on this a couple of times. It produced such a voluminous record because this was an extensive preliminary hearing. We learned not only about some of the ongoings in that community, that there were a group of men who decided to patrol essentially the community, that they were organized through a Facebook internet group that they were giving some advisement at least from the Glynn County Police Department and in a lot of ways the Glynn County PD were deferring to these men for for safety concerns in the community but not really safety because I guess I should take property concerns but beyond that we also learn about Gregory and Travis McMichael and their the racist motivation for their not only accusation of Ahmaud Arbery, but ultimately their their decision to accost him with William Roddy Bryan Brian, and his last moments.

Well, I learned a lot from the hearing. And whether this case is about racism or not, this is the facts as we know them are true. This is a clear murder one with multiple perpetrators pursuing an unarmed individual who has not been proven to have committed any wrongdoing. And even if he had been in a home under construction, even if he had taken something, which let me be clear, he did not. Even cops can't chase down a fleeing felon from a burglary and shoot them dead. No, the person you're chasing has to present a threat that they're going to hurt you or somebody else.

This guy was out jogging for Pete's sake. But I learned something very, very disturbing. Take a listen to Kelly Wiley, WJXT4. During the hearing, Greg McMichael's wife and Travis's mother took the stand. So did Greg McMichael's doctor and a slew of Travis's longtime friends. Several of the witnesses say they would be willing to put up their own property the stand. So did Greg Mc and a slew of Travis's lo of the witnesses say they to put up their own prope for bond for the former C

father. But the state had of Travis's longtime frie that text exchange betwee Travis with Michael in wh about shooting a black f that had a high.45. He was referring to a record. The next day, Judge Walmsley said he was concerned testimony from the witnesses was biased. What he is talking about, and Mr. Lee Merritt, the lawyer for Ms. Cooper Jones, Ahmaud's mother, and Wanda Cooper Jones, they're both with us.

So, I hate to even say it out loud because it's so hateful. So tell me, Lee, one of the shooters sent a text after Ahmaud has been shot stating that he texted about shooting a black COON with gold teeth. And then later had someone state that he was referring to a raccoon? That's right. Am I understanding this right? And that is self-described as Travis the shooter's best friend, childhood friend. They grew up together and they went on hunting expeditions together. And so, I mean, this has been the narrative

that has been most prominent about the murder of Ahmad. It appeared that these men were out hunting, something that hunters do as they brag about what they did. They share pictures of it. They take video. And this is what he was doing. He was sending a text describing killing a black coon with gold teeth, high point 45 in Newport. It was really, really disturbing. It shocked me when I heard it on court. And I appreciate it. The judge took a moment when denying the bond hearing to say,

if this was the best character witness that you could call for Travis. And he lied, of course, about what he said. I actually, we were describing a raccoon and we're being facetious. I doubt the young man knows how to spell that word, but that's what he offered as an explanation. Ms. Cooper-Jones, were you in the courtroom when this testimony occurred? I was. to hear people bragging about shooting your son and referring to him as an animal with gold teeth. And this is after the shooting, which if the facts are as we believe them to be,

as we know them to be at this time, shows absolutely no remorse at all. He is making fun of Ahmaud. no than to be at this time, shows absolutely no remorse at all. He is making fun of Ahmaud. Again, it just showed me that they didn't value Ahmaud's life at all. Ahmaud wasn't human. And again, I hate to keep saying that it breaks my heart, but this case really breaks my heart over and over again.

What led you to be in the courtroom throughout the hearing, Ms. Cooper-Jones? When I, the day that I laid Lamont to rest was the 29th of February. My last words to Ahmaud was, you know,

I will find out what happened. And with telling Ahmaud that, I think it's my duty as mom to be in the courtroom each time Ahmaud's name is called. And that's what I plan to do. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are talking about the recent legal events in the case of Ahmaud Arbery, who was shot dead.

To Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, for those that are not familiar with the case, please give me a description of what happened the day Ahmaud Arbery, just 25 years old, was shot dead. So, Nancy, this is in Brunswick, Georgia, Glynn County, a coastal community, very beautiful. And in that neighborhood is Centilla Shores, residential large oak trees with Spanish moss draping down them. It looks peaceful, but what happened February 23rd was not. Gregory McMichael, he's 65 years old, he called 911. He says a man walked around a house that was under construction and he was running away. And as he was on the phone with 911,

he and his son, 34-year-old Travis McMichael, jumped in a pickup truck armed with guns and chased him and another man William Rhodey Bryan followed him and that man William Bryan actually videoed this pursuit of this unarmed Ahmed Arbery and we know that it was caught on video they caught up with him in their vehicle. Travis McMichael got out, tried to confront him. Ahmed Arbery tried to run away. They're outside of the phone camera's view. You hear arguing, and then you hear gunshots, and Ahmed Arbery is shot dead. He was shot twice in the chest, Nancy. And you know what's very disturbing is that William Bryan said after Travis McMichael shot Ahmed Arbery, as he was on the ground dying, he muttered the words,

effing N-word. You know, Lee Merritt, you tried a lot of cases, as have I. Is there ever a moment in court where you just stop still just almost like it hits you in the face the hate and the perversion people have toward each other i mean are you just used to it by now because you've sought you fought so many racial battles Is it just like water off a duck's back to you? Because it still just, it actually makes me feel sick to my stomach to hear about the hatred people have toward each other.

It was that moment in court when Travis Michaels co-defendant explained what he said to Ahmaud as he laid dying on the ground. And you're right, I've seen a lot of deaths. Unfortunately, the vast majority of the families that I work with have had a loved one killed to violence or hatred. And you can become numb to it, but it's the evil behind those words in that moment. A young man, for whatever reason that he may have justified in his head, was dying in front of him. And he only wanted to keep one last insult on him as he left this earth.

It broke my heart and it snapped something inside of me, honestly. I like to hold my composure because I know families need that from me. They do. And I could not in that moment.

You know, Lee, there were times in court when we'd get a recess for whatever reason and I would tell the victim's family, just wait right here, I'll be right back. And I would go to run up the stairs. Nobody ever uses the stairs in the courthouse. They all use the elevator.

I'd run up the exit stairs, one floor up to the lady's bathroom and go in the furthest stall and just get it together. Yeah. And go back down to the courtroom so I, like you, in court, would appear strong for them because that is what they need. They don't need you falling apart.

They don't need you giving in to the hate that's being heaped upon this young man. We learned a lot. Joseph Scott Morgan with me, renowned death investigator. What do we learn about Ahmaud's injuries? And what I'm getting at specifically, Joe Scott, is to show that Ahmaud was not the aggressor in any way. I already know he's on foot, he's unarmed, and he's being chased by a vehicle, by a group, by two men and a videographer, for Pete's sake, trailing. I already know that. But what can you tell me specifically about the autopsy? Well, the autopsy is, you know, for whatever reason, I think that it's very fortunate in the sense that it's performed by one of the most renowned forensic pathologists in the country, Dr. Edmund Donahue, who was who's now in Savannah as the

former chief medical examiner in Chicago. And he did a very thorough job. And let me just, so folks understand, because there's some confusion here relative to these horrible comments that were made in the past about the high point. Ahmad was killed with a shotgun, Nancy. And this is what is so egregious and striking about this. This is not like someone is using a concealable pistol in their pocket, they pull it out. This is a long gun that they're literally chasing him down with. And you can hear the shots being fired on the video. We've all seen this, unfortunately.

Amat sustained two, what Dr. Donahue is referring to as two shotgun wounds. And these are both fired at close range. And when you take a look at the videography here, you can get an idea for the range. They closed on him, the individual with the shotgun closed on him, and the muzzle is literally pointed. If folks at home will just imagine the left side of their chest, okay? He sustained one that was kind of in center mass, like right over your sternum, slightly to the left side of their chest okay he sustained one that was kind of in center mass like right over your sternum slightly to the left and another that's like superior to the left breast area and it left him with these large large shotgun pellets it's actually buckshot contained within his body and when donahoe talks about this,

he talks about this from the perspective that it is close range. This is not like you're firing at a great distance. Nancy, the ammunition that was used in this case, the reason it's called buckshot is because it was originally designed so that hunters could use it to kill deer with bucks. Okay. And so he was actually hunted down in the street and shot at close

range with a very, very powerful weapon. Hold on before you go any further, you brought something up in my mind to Mrs. Cooper Jones. This is Ahmaud Arbery's mom, when, you know what I think? I think, Ms. Cooper Jones, if it had not been for that video emerging, there would have never been a prosecution. As the days and the weeks passed and nothing happened after Ahmaud was shot, what was going through your mind? Had you accepted that there would be no prosecution? Were you just so heartbroken after his death you didn't care? What was going through your mind at that time before the video emerged? I knew that I had to put myself together to find out what exactly happened.

Once I learned from the local newspaper later that week that Ahmaud was chased down, and the newspaper article stated that there was two or more men standing over the deceased man, and there was two or more men standing over the deceased man, and there was two or more weapons involved. I knew that something shady had happened, and I knew that I really had to push to see what really happened. And that's what I did. Lee Merritt, you know, I'm so used to angry people, angry victims' families, as they should be, angry cops, angry witnesses. What's it like to have a lady like Ms. Cooper-Jones as your client,

so calm, so articulate, so almost, she's an example for everybody else. That's really rare. I mean, you've got to get in there and you've got to be the bad guy. You've got to be the tough. You understand, of course, right? Right. She's so mild-mannered and so soft-spoken. That's rare, right?

Yeah, and I tell her this. At this last hearing, she saw that video, or at least a portion of the video for the first time that we were all now seeing and I'm sure hearing the injuries described after watching that video and she she couldn't sit through it um Amma was exceptional for a number of reasons she's an exceptional woman and it's it's it hurts to even have her revisited but the strength that she displayed was displayed in her son even in his last moment as these men set upon him and he fought for his life I know she takes a great deal of solace and it reminds me of how hard we have to fight, her legal team has to fight,

and the people who are standing up for her. Because he fought to his last moment, and he fought bravely. And she just exudes so much power, dignity, and respect. I want her to know that she can set her armor down for a moment and begin to heal as the people that she's entrusted to take on this fight. I will fight and continue to fight

for her until we have some semblance of justice. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. And a bond hearing. These perps want out on bond. Let me just cut the chase. They didn't get a bond. They're not going to get out. But I want you to hear from the defense in this case. Hear what they are saying. Take a listen to our friends at K, excuse me, WJX-TV News 4. Defense teams for the McMichaels saying the McMichaels didn't

follow Arbery because of his race, but out of concern for their neighborhood. This case isn't about race, Your Honor. This case in the indictment is about whether or not the private citizen's arrest law and the justification statutes allowed Greg McMichael to do what he chose to do that day for the sole purpose of defending his family and his property in his community. The judge in the case denied bond for both McMichaels saying the video shows a significant risk and threat of danger. Mr. Greg, you might put us to some concerns about the fact that it does appear to be a Southland, that Mr. McMichael was removed from the place, I believe the wrongs and opinions. Amant's mother says she's relieved the two will stay in jail.

Today was a good day. Defending family, property, and community, they were chasing a guy in a vehicle, and he's running on foot, and community. They were chasing a guy in a vehicle and he's running on foot, unarmed. You know, to you, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, joining me out of Beverly Hills, not about race. Not about race. They texted after that they shot a black COOO-O-N. I'm not even going to say it because I don't want my children to ever think their mother uttered such a thing with gold teeth. How can this not be about,

it's actually, it's about hate. That's what it's about, pure hate. And Nancy, not only is it about race, hate, malice, it's predatory. We use that term so many times in society, but predatory means cold-blooded, without remorse, that there's kind of a thrill of the hunt. You know, this sounds like they're talking like hunters talk. If you've ever talked to a hunter, somebody who likes to shoot elk or deer or something like that, they love to tell very long stories about, like, I sat in the stand, and then I was looking all day out at the deer, and then the buck came here,

and then I looked them in the eyes. There's a lot of methodical planning to kill their prey. And there's great delight. There's a thrill. And I'm sorry to say this with the family members on the show, but I think that these two father and son murderers were hunters, but they were hunting a human being instead of an animal. And they equated a human being to an animal. And then they bragged afterwards, like you're bragging about a trophy, like somebody who holds up, you know, goes on safari in Africa and then shoots photos of a lion or, you know, sitting on top of an elephant and how thoughtless and cold hearted it is. So I don't know, we can say racism, malice, hate, but it's also equating a

human being with an it or an animal. And Ahmad was so beautiful, 25 years old, jogging through a neighborhood. I've listened to so many stories about his life. I know that on his sports team, he would help the other members. He helped the coach. This was a high school student, a sibling, a son, a beloved member of the community. And all he was doing was looking after his health. That's all he was doing. Just the thought that they would send these texts back and forth, basically laughing about shooting Ahmaud. This is a case that has brought down a district attorney.

Take a listen to our Cut 17. It's Kelly Wiley at WJXT News 4. Voicemail to the cut 17. It's Kelly Wiley at WJXT News 4. Voicemail to the district attorney. State prosecutor Jesse Evans played a voicemail Greg McMichael left for current district attorney Jackie Johnson after his son shot Ahmaud Arbery. Johnson is his former boss. He worked in her office for more than 20 years as her investigator. The shooting was technically hers to prosecute before it was handed to a new district attorney. Jackie, this is Greg. Could you call me as soon as you possibly can? My friend and I have

been involved in the shooting and I need some advice right away. Could you please call me as soon as you possibly can? The state said they were not suggesting the district attorney help McMichael or called him back. Johnson recused herself from the case three days after the shooting, but not before calling another district attorney who agreed to accept the case. To you, Lee Merritt, this is Ms. Wanda Cooper-Jones' lawyer, no stranger to a courtroom. What happened to that DA, the one that took that message? In the last election cycle, Jackie Johnson was voted out of office. To add to that, she is under federal investigation for corruption and for her role in covering up the murder of

Ahmaud Arbery. As you know, the men went for almost 73 days without facing any arrest. No arrest, no nothing. Slowly, slowly, the case is progressing to you, Mr. Merritt. The case is now going to be tried in, I believe, Cobb County. Is that correct? It's being handled by the Cobb County attorney's office or DA's office. The venue is still up for grabs. I see. I see. handled by the Cobb County Attorney's Office or VA's office, the venue is still up for grabs. I see. I see.

I want to go back to Ms. Cooper Jones. This is Ahmaud Arbery's mom. Could you just share with me your most vivid memory of Ahmaud growing up? Well, I have so many because I've gone through them

more than once. But I was angry with Ahmad one day. He had done something at school and he comes in and I'm giving him some good words of advice, but he really didn't think so at the time. And he's just sitting at the dining room table. He's just staring at me.

He's just staring at me. He's not saying anything. He's just staring. Because he's staring at me because he wants me to look in his direction so he can smile. Because he knows if he smiles at me, you know, if I'm angry, I'm not going to be angry anymore. And I just remember him sitting there just staring.

And I was trying not to look at him because I know that's what he's trying to do, but I couldn't help it. And I looked at him, and there he was at the dining room table. He was just looking at his mama with a big old smile on his face. And then we ended that little talk when we got on to something else. But he would do little things like that because he knew that. And I'm looking at him right now, and this must have been his graduation photo. He looks like he's got on a tuxedo, and he's got that smile, those big brown eyes.

It looks like he's looking right at me when I'm looking at him. I remember that day. We drove him to Jacksonville to have those photos taken. And he was in such a hurry because he wanted to get back to Brownsville to go to the teen center. He was in such a hurry that day because he got to get back by a certain time to go to. They had a local teen center that he liked to attend every Saturday. And he was in such a big rush. Ms. Cooper-Jones, please know that people all across the world are lifting you up in prayer and Ahmaud as well. Please know that. Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. I want to thank you guys. Thank you

for all the support. Thank you for all the prayers. I very much appreciate it. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.