Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - SHOCKING DETAILS: Millionaire pedophile Jeff Epstein's bloody death cell

Episode Date: January 10, 2020

Convicted millionaire pedophile Jeffrey Epstein had bloodied ligature marks around his neck and several nooses inside his jail cell following his death. A security guard said he cut a noose from Epstein's neck after he found the pervert hanging lifeless in his cell. Yet, no evidence of a "cut" noose has been found. Joining Nancy Grace to discuss: Marc Fernich: Jeffrey Epstein's Criminal Defense Lawyer  Bruce Johnson : Owner of ISP Investigations, Master Sgt Region One Crime Scene Commander in Chicago Metro Area (Ret) Joe Scott Morgan: Forensic Expert, Professor of Forensics, Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet" Dr. Kendall Crowns: Travis County, Texas , Deputy Medical Examiner Emily Saul: New York Post Journalist Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Millionaire pedophile Jeff Epstein. You may think for a moment it's just some pervy millionaire up in a New York City jailhouse. That's not the end of the story. What matters is what really happened. If this is a fault in our justice system, if anything surreptitious, the public and law enforcement needs to know there are too many circumstantial facts, too many coincidences surrounding Epstein's death. Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

The theories that are out there, one of them is that it was another inmate who may have killed Jeffrey Epstein. Come on. You don't believe that? He was found hanging in his cell. He had tried to commit suicide before that. He was a very wealthy man who was looking a lifetime in prison. You know, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

So, Epstein's taken off suicide watch. The day before he kills himself, his roommate is removed from the cell. The cameras on his tear are not working. The guards fell asleep. It seems almost impossible to think all of those things could happen in that way it does and that's what makes this so shocking i mean this is a failure on multiple levels do you think there's any way that jeffrey epstein could have been murdered absolutely unequivocally not okay so what is the truth if If Epstein, the millionaire perv pedophile, was murdered, who, what, where, why, when?

If he committed suicide, same questions. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. With me, a man we've all wanted to talk to, Epstein's criminal defense lawyer, Mark Furnish. Also with me, Emily Saul, New York Post journalist. Bruce Johnson, owner of ISP Investigations, Master Sergeant, Region 1 Crime Scene Commander, Chicago Metro. Well, that says it all. There's no lack of business there.

Joseph Scott Morgan, renowned forensic expert, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet, and Dr. Kendall Crowns, deputy medical examiner out of Travis County. That's Austin. First, before we kick it off, I want you to hear this. The key reason Dr. Bodden thinks Jeffrey Epstein's death might be a homicide is because of the unusual fractures he saw in Epstein's neck. DR. JOHN MCCRAW, There were fractures of the left, the right thyroid cartilage, and the left hyoid bone.

JANE FERGUSON, This is an autopsy photo of Epstein's broken hyoid bone, a U-shaped bone that sits under the jaw that part of the tongue attaches to. The thyroid cartilage sits at the front of the neck. DR. that part of the tongue attaches to the thyroid cartilage sits at the front of the neck i have never seen three fractures like this in a suicidal hanging sometimes there's a fracture of the higher bone or a fracture of the thyroid cartilage but not three very unusual to have two and not three and going over over a thousand jail hangings, suicides in the New York City state prisons over the past 40, 50 years, no one had three fractures. You were hearing our friends over at CBS 60 Minutes, Sharon Alfonsi, Mark Furnish, Jeffrey Epstein, criminal defense lawyer.

You know, I really don't know where to start with you, Mark. First of all, it's not about you. It's about him. I mean, it's very hard for me not to just lay into you because I do believe Epstein was, this is certainly putting perfume on the pig, having sex with underage girls. That's called child molestation. But what I'm focusing on right now is the possibility that he was murdered behind bars. What are your observations? Well, like I said yesterday, nothing about Mr. Epstein's prosecution or his death in federal custody surprises me or could surprise me at this point. And I don't think that we're ever going to learn what really happened in there because I don't think that there's any real incentive to find out. And I think this is best to go down. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute. Furnish. I mean, hold on. You just said so many important things in those two couple of sentences. Again, I'm like drinking out of the fire hydrant

is too much at once. Why do you believe there is no incentive? Because I've got a lot of incentive to find out the truth. Oh, I don't mean media. I mean on the part of institutional incentives within our government. Please don't call me media. Please don't call me media. That makes me feel really bad about my whole career trying to seek justice. Well, let's say independent outsiders. Better phraseology.

Thank you. But I don't think that there's much institutional incentive to dig into this, understandably so, from a political perspective. Why? Dummy down for me. We're not all on the inside. We're on the outside looking in. Why do you say no incentive to find the truth? Because when you have two low-hanging fruit, easy suspects to make a seemingly easy case against. It's much easier to take the

path of least resistance. And getting a couple of proverbial or literal patsies is much easier than digging in and opening up a can of worms and letting prying lies like your own really have a good look at what went on there. And certainly the suspicious circumstances surrounding this are just overwhelming. It's just an overwhelming chain of apparent systemic failures. And at some point you have to say, there's so much smoke here. Can this all be just chalked up to coincidence? And that strains credulity and common sense, right? Okay. I'm trying to soak in everything you say um and i'm in the very very difficult position here of agreeing with a defense attorney not only a defense attorney the defense attorney for i can't say this enough millionaire pedophile jeff epstein hold on mark furnish emily saul i gotta get to em We got to have a trial. Right. Yeah. And it's, let's just say you got to have a trial and it's all the two.

That's the United States. It's all the two guards fault. You know, let's, it's a little too simplistic. You got to have a trial again. I'm going to use your own trial. I know, I know what you're talking about. I'm going to use your own rationale on you. There's so much smoke i can't

see in the room there's too many alleged victims of epstein's what i'm they're all lying and he and gillan are the only ones telling the truth i don't believe that just as i believe that there's two there are too many circumstantial facts, too many coincidences surrounding Epstein's death. I mean, it's just overwhelming. To Emily Saul, New York Post journalist. Emily, what, well, this is a loaded question. What jumps out at you? Yes, it is a loaded question.

I mean, the MCC has never been known as a superb facility. Sort of stepping back from Jeffrey Epstein, you, for years now, I mean, since it opened in 1975, when it was originally supposed to be, you know, the new humanitarian free trial facility. I mean, people have, inmates have been filing lawsuits and letters for years talking about just how the systemic issues inside the facility, be it mold, be it staffing. It is interesting. Okay, hold on. Emily, Emily, can I ask you a question? Yes. What is your expertise? I mean, I know you're an expert because you're at the Post, but what do you write about the most? What do I write about the most? So I cover the Southern District of New York for the Post, and in that capacity, the Manhattan Federal Court for the

Post. Okay, well, Emily, then you are no stranger to a jailhouse, and I've just got to tell you, I have never seen an inmate that did not complain bitterly about the jail conditions ever ever i've never ever once since let's say when did i start in the business i got out of law school in 84 i started prosecuting in 87 since 1987 i've never heard one inmate go this place is awesome the food's great i love my roomie that never happens em. So I'm not really convinced by everybody whining about it. Okay, Furnish, you're not overpowering anybody in the courtroom. Let Emily speak. Go ahead. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead, Emily. I will just say you have outside reports, you have outside investigations, you have outside monitors, you have Amnesty

International who've come in and who's basically said there are major systemic issues at this facility. Just using that as the backdrop, for me, that's one of the reasons that it is possible to believe that a number of systemic failures and human error led to what happened there. Does that excuse what happened? It just, for me, sort of informs the idea that there is a possibility that this was the result of a series of human errors. This was not a well-run facility. This is a facility that is supposed to hold a little less than 400 people and instead sold 700. This is a facility where you have people who are worked to the bone, who are working overtime. Michael Thomas, one of the people who was

charged with falsifying timesheets, isn't even a corrections officer. He works there in another capacity and he's filling in because there are not enough corrections officers to staff the facility. Okay, wait a minute. Emily, Emily, I i hear you i hear you and i agree with you however those circumstances about overcrowding i mean there's a federal order on uh many of the jail and prison facilities in our jurisdiction about overcrowding overcrowding and public servants being worked like mules i remember being there myself and having to work two night jobs to to just make a house and a car payment and just working like a dog as a public servant i get it but there still is a problem there's still a problem. There's still a problem. Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

There was a note in Jeffrey Epstein's cell. He wrote that one guard kept me in a locked shower stall for one hour. Noel, the guard, sent me burnt food, giant bugs crawling over my hands. No fun. Dr. Michael Bodden says if anyone thought Jeffrey Epstein was suicidal, they wouldn't have let him have a ballpoint pen that could be used to harm himself or someone else. The other thing we just noticed looking at the photos, it appears he had some kind of sleep apnea machine. You can see a long electrical cord. Yes, there were other wires and cords present that it would have been easy to use to hang oneself within a few minutes. You're hearing

our friends at 60 Minutes describing what they observed in Epstein's cell. With me, Mark Furness, Jeffrey Epstein's criminal defense lawyer, Emily Saul, New York Post, Dr. Kendall Crowns, Austin, Joe Scott Morgan, forensics expert, and Bruce Johnson, owner, ISP Investigations. To Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, so many issues stand out for you. Let's just attack the first two of them you told me about. Yeah, sure, Nancy. You know, I'm looking over, you know, these images as I guess many of us have, you know, over the past few weeks and, you know, as all of this has kind of come

down. And I'm amazed at, you know, when you first take a look at this, how deep these furrows are in Epstein's neck. The furrows are the narrow little areas where you commonly see a ligature has been applied to a specific area that has led to a strangulation or hanging. In this particular case, they're saying that it's a ligature strangulation. This is a very narrow area. to a strangulation or hanging. In this particular case, they're saying that it's a ligature strangulation. This is a very narrow area. And what's being applied or what's being implied here is that this piece of broadcloth that was utilized, I guess he ripped it up from a sheet or whatever the case might be in fashion of noose, it doesn't have the same consistency as, say, an electrical cord or a piece of rope that could generate that kind of furrow. So for me, you know, as a former ME investigator, a coroner investigator in New Orleans,

I look at this, having worked a lot of jailhouse deaths, I look at this and it really makes me scratch my head. And, of course, we're coming to this after he has already been removed from the cell. He's already been taken to the hospital. So we're missing a lot of information here, and that makes it particularly difficult. Stop right there. Let's be specific. Dr. Kendall Crowns, Deputy Medical Examiner, Travis County, Austin. Dr. Crowns, I'm going to just put it in regular people talk from what Joe Scott Morgan just said. The furrow, the hanging, I'm just going to just put it in regular people talk from what Joe Scott Morgan just said. The furrow, the hanging, I'm just going to do hanging in air quotes, marks on Epstein's neck seem to have come from something other than a wide piece of material. Now, granted, when you hang somebody with a wide piece of material, the material will scrunch up. It won't remain

widely applied on the neck. But still, Dr. Crowns, what Morgan is saying, the deep, deep furrows in the neck appear to be made more likely with a rope or a wire. What do you say, Crowns? I think with a sheet, you can actually twist it up, which I've seen in other hangings with sheets, and it can become quite tight the more you twist it. So it can leave a fairly deep furrow, especially if the individual is suspended or a lot of their weight is put on them. So you can match up the furrow itself with the material, and you can find findings in the furrow that will match the material as well. And I'm sure the medical examiners photograph it that way. Well, wait a minute. What do you mean?

Are you saying that you believe there will be sheet particles in the furrow that would match up to the noose, the homemade noose? Not necessarily the particles, but the actual pattern of the sheet. If you'll see the webbing of the sheet or the weaving pattern in the sheet, you can see it in the furrow itself. Well, hold on just a moment. To mark furnish, the piece of material that we've been told created the homemade noose did not have blood on it, according to Michael Bodden, who is a very well-known medical examiner, a friend of mine. Of course, I rarely agree with him, but on this, I find that very, very significant. Is that true? Well, I don't know. I don't have access to that information either. All I can say is that I have immense respect for Dr. Bodden and the folks on this panel

who have better expertise in that area than I do, obviously are very well informed and know what they're talking about. And there are multiple theories and a good expert can spin out whatever they want out of the same information. So I'll defer to what the doctors say for now, based on the limited information that's been publicly released. Take a listen to our friends at 60 Minutes. There's also something that's striking about the photos. The wound is down here. You'd think if somebody hung themselves, the wound would be maybe up here. Yes. Most hangings, especially free hangings, the ligature slides up to beneath the jawbone, the mandible.

Here it's in the middle of the neck. Dr. Bodden says a wound straight across the neck is more common when a victim is strangled by a wire or cord. He and Epstein's brother Mark met with the government and asked to see any forensic testing and any video. But they say they were told the ongoing criminal case against the two guards prevents the Justice Department from releasing any information. So the criminal charges are now basically a firewall

for the family to get any information from the Justice Department. The charges have also silenced the guards. The attorney for guard Michael Thomas says five months after Epstein's death, Thomas has still not spoken to investigators or revealed how he alone found Epstein's body. Now that also is curious to Emily Saul, New York Post. Weigh in, Emily. It's fascinating that Thomas has not been questioned, especially because he was one of the MCC staffers who responded to Epstein's first suicide attempt in July of 2019.

So the idea that he would not have been questioned even with his lawyer present, to me, is just unfathomable. You'd think that would be one of the very first things that had happened before we even began to see the federal investigation into Thomas and into Tova Noel. It just doesn't make sense to me as a layperson. Bruce Johnson, owner of ISP Investigations, the Master Sergeant Region 1 Crime Scene Commander, Chicago Metro. Bruce Johnson, I mean, this is no way to conduct an investigation. And I say that not as, you know, a media person,

but having conducted literally thousands of criminal investigations over the course of many years as both a state felony prosecutor and a fed, the fact that this guy has not been questioned, that's where you start. They are the ones that find the body. They are the ones that allow the body to be moved. That was a crime scene. That was a huge departure in protocol. He was already dead. That's either a homicide or suicide. There were no photos of the location of his body. The scene was disturbed.

What a mess. And the guy hasn't even been questioned, Bruce. The first officer at the scene, this is the officer that was alone and cut him down or did whatever he did. So that is going to be very important to talk to this guy to see the position of the body. That's going to help you with the ligature mark on the neck, which is going to be at the autopsy, and then is also going to lead to information about the crime scene. So we all want to know. You could have a hanging by a person on his knees leaning forward. That's going to give us information as to where the ligature mark should be. We're looking at the ligature mark. It looks like it's straight across. If it's a hanging from the 36 inches of orange that's on the

bed, if it's that high, then you should have a U shape. If he's leaning forward in parallel with the mattress, if he's that low, then you may have it coming across the neck. But that's very important information to get from the officer at the scene. And for him not to be investigated yet, as a supervisor on that day, I would ask him, I would say, I need to know everything you did from beginning to end. Before you go into an officer interview for protocol with him to have an attorney, an FOP or whatever, as a supervisor, I could ask him, what were you doing? What did you do during this time period? And get that chain going. And for him not to speak to anybody within five months is just ridiculous. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

The New York City Medical Examiner's Office disputes Bodden's theory, saying that fractures of the hyoid bone and cartilage can be seen in suicides and homicides, and they stand firmly behind their finding of suicide by hanging. Then there's the two nooses. This was the one that was sketched and included in the autopsy by the medical examiner, presumably because they thought it was used in Epstein's death.

But Dr. Bodden says that noose and the wounds on Jeffrey Epstein's neck don't appear to match. What do you see when you see these two things together? What I see here is that this noose doesn't match the ligature furrow mark. It's wider than this. To the naked eye, it looks like there's some blood here and it doesn't look like there's

any blood on this noose. That's right. This looks like a clean noose that was never used to compress anybody's neck. You're hearing our friends at CBS 60 Minutes describing inside Jeffrey Epstein's cell. That was Sharon Alfonsi speaking. More questions than answers today. Back to Emily Saul, New York Post journalist. The fact that the corrections officer, Michael Thomas, that discovered Epstein and apparently cut down his body. I mean, I assume that's what happened.

Has not been questioned. You've got a renowned medical examiner saying the noose had no blood on it. When we can clearly see the wound to his neck is bloody. Emily, why aren't they questioning the first officers on the scene? And what are the answers about how protocol was clearly violated? I mean, these are fantastic questions, they're ones where answered. I mean, the Justice Department, the BOP have done absolutely everything they can to not publicly answer. What are you saying? The BOP? The Bureau of Prisons, which is a section of the Department of Justice who is overseeing the investigation.

They just have for every time we ask for a comment, every time we put in a FOIL request for information, the same answer we're given continually is that the investigation is ongoing and therefore they can't talk. I hate to steal from Alice in Wonderland, but it seems to get curiouser and curiouser. Listen. In the pictures of the cell, there are multiple nooses. The fact that the medical examiner sketched one noose, this noose, this is the noose they think was responsible for killing Jeffrey Epstein. Yes, this would be the ligature, the noose that was involved in causing the death. That's why it was sketched. One of the things we have heard is that the guard that found Jeffrey Epstein cut him down, which you'd seem to indicate somebody cutting down a noose or something.

If you look at the noose that the medical examiner examine and you look very closely at the edges it appears perfectly hemmed it doesn't look like anybody ever took scissors to it so there is some question is that the right noose the difficulties with this story is because they charge two guards there is a firewall and you cannot get information because you go to the Department of Justice, you go to the FBI and say, hey, what's going on here? And they said, there's an ongoing criminal investigation. We can't tell you anything. To Mark Furness, Jeffrey Epstein's criminal defense attorney,

is it true that Epstein's own brother does not believe this was a suicide? You can see that by the hiring of Dr. Bozden, I think that the answer is they want to find out what the truth is. And there's a lot of questions and suspicions around it. And even Dr. Bodden at this point, at least for public record, is not offering a definitive conclusion. He's just saying that there are, to use your phrase from earlier, a lot of curiosities in the evidence. And in his view, at this point, based on what he's examined, it seems to point more strongly to homicide than suicide. So I think he, if I could speak for him, is skeptical of the assertion that Mr. Epstein killed himself and wants to get to the bottom of it. And look, so I speak as a citizen and as a criminal defense lawyer,

I understand that there is an ongoing criminal case. And I don't think firewall is, that's kind of a loaded question. You have to give some semblance of protection to the defendant's rights. So the government isn't going to just show their hand and talk about what's going on behind the scenes. I say that as a lawyer, but as a citizen, of course, the public wants to know and find out what happened. And if I had to predict how this plays out, and I don't have any inside baseball, this is just on a hunch, this case against the guards is never going to go to trial. At some point, there'll be a disposition reached. I understand from the published reports that they were trying to get these guards to cooperate in the days after Epstein's passing.

It didn't work out. And this, if I had to guess, will never be aired publicly, at least not against these guards. There'll be a deal reached at some point, and you're never going to get a public airing of the facts surrounding his death. Well, that's the way in so many unusual cases, they have a cooling off period where the public seemingly forgets about it. And then there is a deal made and it just goes away. And that's the end of it. And the truth never really comes out. To Emily Saul, New York Post, what would be the incentive to murder Jeffrey Epstein. Another loaded question. I mean, he as you know, he's been accused, obviously, of serial sex abuse going back decades of hundreds of of young girls.

And he was known. I mean, we have his little black book, he was known to spend lots of time with very powerful people. As I mean, we've heard people put it, he liked to collect the rich and famous. And so I mean, if you want, if you care to subscribe to conspiracy theories, one of them would be that, you know, if someone was concerned that they would be implicated, we have some very big names that appear to have been very close to him. If someone was concerned about potentially being charged themselves or what he knew, I mean, that would certainly be a reason. Whether or not it's feasible inside the MCC is a whole other story. Well, the reality is to you, Bruce Johnson, you've investigated so many felonies. When you look at motivation, of course, the state never has to prove motivation at a trial,

but we know for a fact, according to reliable sources that have been inside Epstein's Manhattan home, that it was covered with video cameras, including in all of the bedrooms. We know that very wealthy and powerful individuals there visiting Epstein had sex with multiple women, potentially underage women. And obviously we're videoed. Why else do you have a video camera? Every video nanny cam in our house videos 24-7. I rarely look at it, but it's there. So those cameras are there

for a reason, Bruce. So you want to tell me that nobody has an ax to grind against Epstein with all those video cameras and they're having sex're having sex potentially with underage women? There are hundreds of high profile people, including the president, former president that had been and both presidents, Clinton and Trump, that had been associated with this guy and taken trips to the island. And there are a lot of people shaking in their boots if this was going to go to a trial. They did not want to see it. There's plenty of cause for people not to want to see this guy go to trial. The investigation part, you may not have video of these cells or video that was lost. You got video of the guards. He doesn't walk around with scissors in his pocket or on his hip with his gun belt. Where did he get the scissors? He had to go get the scissors.

He said he was there alone. So I want to know information on that. The crime scene, when you look at the cell, that looks like a Holiday Inn hotel room upon checkout. There are sheets and stuff all over the place. There are cords in there. It doesn't make sense that this guy is on suicide watch. Every one of us, you look at the cell, you open up the cell door and you see that. That looks like a hotel room. There are sheets in there for five people.

Well, you're absolutely right. The cell was a wreck. Let's start friends at ABC 25 WPFB. Terry Parker. Being found inside Jeffrey Epstein's cell after his death doesn't support the conclusion that Epstein hung himself using a bed sheet. Does it look staged to you? That's certainly one of the appearances it has, yes, staged suicide. Badden says it's hard to tell how Epstein really died because jail staff inexplicably

moved Epstein's body before the medical examiner arrived and could document the evidence. It is highly unusual to remove a dead body from a cell before it's fully investigated. Investigators found numerous orange bed sheets on the floor, some tight and complicated nooses, and part of one sheet attached to a rung of the bottom metal bunk. Baden says the sheet was too low to the floor to explain the broken bone and cartilage at Epstein's neck, which had to come from extreme force, not from just kneeling forward.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What he found inside Jeffrey Epstein's cell after his death doesn't support the conclusion that Epstein hung himself using a bed sheet. Does it look staged to you? That's certainly one of the appearances it has, yes. A staged suicide. Badden says it's hard to tell how Epstein really died because jail staff inexplicably moved Epstein's body before

the medical examiner arrived and could document the evidence. It is highly unusual to remove a dead body from a cell before it's fully investigated. Investigators found numerous orange bed sheets on the floor, some tight and complicated nooses, and part of one sheet attached to a rung of the bottom metal bunk. Baden says the sheet was too low to the floor to explain the broken bone and cartilage at Epstein's neck, which had to come from extreme force, not from just kneeling forward. To Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, what about that? Now, we all became, well, many people became familiar with that mode of suicide when comedian Robin Williams hung himself, apparently from a doorknob.

So explain what you are hearing and why, if you think so, that's inconsistent with suicide. Yeah, back to the Robin Williams case, as our colleague mentioned just a moment ago, you're not required to be suspended in the air in order to hang yourself. I'll go ahead and say that. And that suspension that has been previously mentioned, this could be accomplished if you're on your knees, but this is kind of a slow event, okay, where you're sinking into the noose. You can either lean forward, I guess, or you can sit on your backside on the floor. But when you begin to look at the height that we're talking about, that that rung where we see the cloth wrapped

around the rung, is that sufficient to offer up the amount of force that it would take, Nancy, not to create one fracture, but two fractures in the thyroid cartilage, as well as one of the greater horns of the hyoid, which is actually seated up high in the neck. Now, that's what Biden is talking about here, this tremendous amount of force. It seems less than plausible, I'll put it that way, that you could achieve this by simply squatting in one position. I have to say that the morning that this happened, I did a screen capture of them wheeling Epstein into the emergency room. There was a brief shot of him, and you had the EMTs that were bringing him in.

He had an alligator around his neck at that moment in time. And I've reflected back on that a couple of times since this has all come down. It had to be removed prior to that. Now, I look at that jail cell. I'm not going to go out and say that this thing was staged, but I have to say I've been in a number of cells working, working suicides and other types of deaths in various correctional facilities. This place, this place actually verges on squalid in appearance. And this is a federal facility. Well, that's exactly what Emily Saul, New York Post is saying. But how does that relate to the homicide slash suicide? Well, I think that how it relates is that it gives you an idea that no one was paying attention to this guy, Nancy.

Got it. No one. Got it. Do Dr. Kendall Crowns agree or disagree? Because of Mr. Epstein's age, what happens is your hyaluronic bone, your thyroid cartilage, has actually become more fragile as you get older. Once you get into the late 50s, early 60s, these bones break a lot more easily. So I think, yes, he could have leaned into it and those bones could have broken.

The other thing you have to think of too is they did appear to try and intubate him because there is information that there's abrasions about his mouth from intubation. The EMTs, as they're trying to manipulate his oral airway, could have also further exaggerated those fractures. So because of his age, because of the fact that they intubated him or put an air tube in his mouth. I've never heard of intubation causing fractures. Hold on. Is that Mark or Bruce speaking? Bruce.

Jump in. What it looks like is if you look at the investigation portion right now, what he said that the noose was not on the neck going to EM, he never should have been moved. That tells me that the investigation is going that, hey, we're trying to save a life. We just got here. We've seen him in the cell. We cut him down.

We're rushing him to the emergency room. We're going to try and save him. They knew he was dead. They didn't know he was dead for eight hours, but they knew he had been dead. He's probably cold to the touch. Rigor mortis is probably already starting to set in. Right, right. We know.

We know it was a huge breaking protocol to move the body. And I agree with you 100% on that. Take a listen to this. And in comparison to the chaotic scene in the room, here's the dichotomy. He says it doesn't appear he jumped off the top bunk. There's nothing disturbed in the top bunk. A whole bunch of personal items are up there. But if he jumped off the bed,

he would show injuries on the body. Baden says the thick sheet knotted into the noose Epstein allegedly used doesn't match his injuries, which look more like they were made from a rope. Doesn't seem for the photographs to match the compression mark on the neck. Plus, Baden says there was no transfer of blood or skin to that noose, although Epstein had a bloody wound under his chin. I think we need more information to be able to arrive at a conclusion as to what the cause of death is and whether it's suicide or not. Bruce Johnson, owner of ISP, has an autopsy question.

Go ahead, Bruce. Okay, for the doctor, every in-custody death that I have had, there's been no autopsy pictures that we've seen of the organs on the table or any of that, and I understand that. That's fine. But we do need to know if they filleted him. And what that means is every muscle group is cut and observed for damage to the tissues. Will we be able to find out if he has been filleted in that manner?

His forearms, top and bottom? What about it, Dr. Kendall Crowns? Yes, any death in custody of this nature, a full body fillet, which means you're cutting the skin of the back and pulling it back to expose all the muscle groups, is standard as part of that autopsy. And it should be part of the autopsy protocol that they mention that they filleted the body. To Emily Saul, New York Post journalist who's been on the case from the get-go and covers

that region, including all crime and justice. Emily, nobody seems to want to go out on a limb, but I'm just telling you, there are too many problems with this scenario. One coincidence, sure. Maybe two, okay. But when there are three, four, 10, 15 coincidences, that's just too much. I mean, I agree with you. It's mind-boggling the number of things that seem to have gone wrong here. And then to look at the cell itself, which, as one of your guests described, I believe, is a holiday inn after checkout. The idea that someone who was on suicide watch briefly removed inexplicably would have so many bed sheets in their room and then to view the photos of what appear to be you have little knotted nooses everywhere

it doesn't make sense you also have i mean he would have to tear the bed sheets and the um the ligatures themselves that we've seen all appear to be perfectly cut. We also, upon information and belief, they think he was dead for maybe two hours before he was discovered around 630, which would mean that he had blood pooled in his back, which even if you are hanging yourself from a squatting or sitting position, you'd think the blood would be directed downward as opposed to pooling in the back. Would two hours be enough time? Because for me, that almost is the most confusing bit of this. Wow. That's an excellent point. Joe Scott Morgan, now try your best, okay?

I'm going to pit you against Dr. Kendall Crowns because, you know, I'm putting two dogs in the ring. Joe Scott Morgan, do you think it's within your power to break down what she said and answer in simple terms? I mean, can you do that? Because I doubt Crowns can because he is an MD. But I'm throwing it to you first. Give it a try.

Yeah, the coloration or the post-mortem lividity that you see between the shoulder blades. Oh, dear Lord in heaven. What did I just say? I just said dummy down, and there you go. Try again. Last chance, Morgan. The blood that has settled nancy on his back uh it can be quite consistent with him laying in a tray overnight uh if they put him in a uh a face-up position say just on the gurney if you

just leave him in the gurney in the emergency room for a period of time then put his body in the cooler the blood is still going to settle into that dependent area. What is really needs to happen is that we need to see how deep the lividity was, say, for instance, on the backside of his legs. It'll have a different appearance to it. And maybe his lower legs that people are saying that this is a suspension hanging because blood will settle in those areas. But it's easily explained that he would have discoloration in his back from the blood pooling. Okay.

I kind of understood part of that, Dr. Kendall-Crowns. But remember, I'm just a JD. You're the MD. And Joe Scott Morgan, he sounds like a computer spinning out a lot of confusing terms. Joe Scott, I guess that was your best attempt to be a regular guy. Dr. Kendall Crowns, please help us. So the lividity or the blood pooling that occurs after your heart stops beating, it can take, it starts immediately.

The blood pooling will start immediately. But the problem is, is it doesn't become fixed in place or stuck in place for several hours. So if you're in it, it is pulled by gravitational forces. So if you're upright when you die, like in a suspension hanging, it will pull around your legs and things like that. But if you're put on your back, it will pull along your back. So it'll become fixed after about eight to 12 hours to two to three days. It can vary depending on many circumstances. So he's found and then taken down from his position, put on his back on a gurney.

So that's going to alter how the lividity looks no matter what happens. So you can't really look at lividity in this and get any idea of how his body was. But wouldn't he? Wait, let me think this through. So I think what Emily is saying is that the pulling of the blood in his lower, in his back, in his buttocks regions suggests he had been there for a longer period of time. But Dr. Kendall Crowns and Joe Scott Morgan are saying that would have happened because he was on a gurney for a period of time. Emily, did I get that right? That would be one of my questions as a layperson was just that to me was one of the most startling photos. You know what, you know, there's

so many problems and so many issues. Last question to Mark Furnish, Epstein's criminal defense lawyer, and boy, you got your hands full even now. He's dead and he still won't go away. Mark Furnish, who would have benefited the most from this being called officially a suicide? Well, Nancy, I've been listening to this and I've been thinking about it. I'm not Quincy. I wasn't there that night. None of us knows what's happening. We're all operating on the basis of incomplete information, but this is what I can tell you. There's no doubt that this was a tough case because Epstein had already been convicted three times over in the court of public opinion. But by the same token, I assure you that we had very substantial

legal and factual defenses to the case, legally based in part on the prior non-prosecution agreement he had signed. And Mr. Epstein was aware of all of these things. And it seems, just speaking for me personally, it seems very, very implausible, given the state of the case and the fact that we had substantial legal and factual defenses and a triable case, it seems implausible to me personally that he would have taken his own life, particularly at that particular moment, just at the infancy of the case. Stranger things have certainly happened. Certainly not ruling anything out. But the media didn't have the whole story of the case. As I said, it was a hard case. No question about that, but a case where we were in the fight.

We're never going to have it. We're never going to have the whole story. And frankly, we still don't have the whole story. Nobody wants the whole story to get out. Because the prosecutors and the government is keeping it a secret, and I don't like that. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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