Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Shocking Details Revealed on Slaughter of 2 Delphi Girls

Episode Date: November 30, 2022

An Indiana judge orders the release of charging documents in the case of accused murderer Richard Allen, in connection with the 2017 Delphi murders of 14-year-olds Libby German and Abigail Williams. According to the documents, an unspent .40 caliber bullet with extraction marks was found in between the victims. Witnesses tell police they encountered a "kinda creepy" man at the bridge wearing a blue jacket, black boots, and a black hoodie. Another witness said she spotted a man dressed similarly walking away from the Monon High Bridge on the day in question. She noted his clothes were “muddy and bloody." Investigators said security footage captured Allen’s Ford Focus in the area on February 13, 2017, at around 1:27 p.m. Allen also reportedly admitted that he was on the bridge on February 13, 2017 in a police interview, claiming he was there to watch the fish.  In October 2022, investigators obtained a search warrant for Allen’s residence where they found a .40 caliber pistol. The Indiana State Police Laboratory examined the bullet found at the crime scene and ultimately determined that it came from the pistol registered to Allen, and “forensically determined” that the bullet cycled through his gun. Allen claimed he never let anyone else use his gun, but he had no explanation for the bullet found at the crime scene. Detectives continue to ask anyone who may have additional information to email [e-mail] or call 765-822-3535 Joining Nancy Grace Today: Fran Longwell - Former Deputy State’s Attorney (Calvert County, MD), Former Assistant State’s Attorney (Prince George’s County, MD) specializing in child abuse, sex offenses and homicides.  Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta GA, AngelaArnoldMD.com, Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women, Former Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Obstetrics and Gynecology: Emory University, Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital, Voted "My Buckhead's Best Psychiatric Practice of 2022" Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert, Founder: Cold Case Investigative Research Institute in Atlanta, GA, ColdCaseCrimes.org, @ColdCaseTips   Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan"  Alexis McAdams -  Fox News National Correspondent @AlexisMcAdamsTV, First reporter to sit down with the lead detective on the Delphi case. McAdams also toured the crime scene with the property owner after the girls deaths.     See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. In the last days, we believe finally the case of the Delphi Bridge double murder where Liberty and Abby were led to their deaths had totally been solved. But little did we know that in the last hours there would be reverberations from the arrest of Richard Allen. Take a listen to this. We know Richard Allen worked as a licensed pharmacy tech at this CVS here in Delphi, but many continue to ask and wonder how a man now charged with two counts of murder managed to stay under the radar. In a town of about 3,000 people, those who live in Delphi are still trying to cope with news that Richard Allen is the man police say murdered Abby Williams and Libby German. I mean, it's the day after Halloween, but it's a little eerie.

And tense. In downtown Delphi on the square, businesses like the Office Tavern put up a new sign on their door reading, No Media Allowed. They weren't the only ones. Country Hair also had a sign. Off camera, one business owner told 13 News, the community is still in shock.

You were just hearing from our friends at WTHR. Well, after the arrest of the local pharmacy tech, everyone wondered, why him? Why now? What do they know that we don't know? Well, in the last hours, over objection, a judge has unsealed a probable cause affidavit that goes with a warrant for search and arrest. And it is full of a trove of evidence pointing the finger at the father, the husband, the pharmacy tech, Alan. Listen. Critical evidence that infamous video captured by 14-year-old Libby German on her cell phone. Police say Libby was rolling as Alan walked behind her and 13-year-old friend Abby Williams on that bridge.

According to documents, one of the girls is heard mentioning a gun as the man approaches, then orders them down the hill in that haunting audio. From our friends at ABC and more from WDRB. The probable cause affidavit says Abby and Libby were found dead in the woods less than a quarter mile from the Monon High Bridge, and there was a.40 caliber unspent round found between the victims' bodies, less than two feet away from libby german investigators first spoke to richard allen back in 2017 and at that time allen told investigators he was on the trails by the monon high bridge between 1 30 and 3 30 on the day of the murders the pc did not say why investigators spoke to him back in 2017. the girls' bodies were found the next day,

along with other items, including an unfired bullet, which was found between the victims. Between the witness statements and further evidence, police believe the man in that victim's video is Richard Allen. Last month, police recovered a pistol from Allen's Delphi home. The state police lab later determined that unfired bullet had cycled through Allen's gun. Allen denied his involvement in the girls' murders during a later interview, and on October 31st this year, he was arrested and charged based on the evidence recovered. From our friends also WTHR, that's the tip of the iceberg from what we're learning from this PC affidavit, a probable cause affidavit. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. What is a probable cause affidavit? Well, it's legal lingo. What it means is you get an investigator, a police officer, a detective familiar with the case to go before a magistrate. You can even do it over the phone if you have to. That detective or whoever your affiant who is swearing under oath for an affidavit, that person tells the judge or the magistrate what they know. And what they know

in this case led to an arrest and a search warrant. Now, there's so much to go through, but we're finally getting answers. Who, what, where, why, when? Why is Richard Allen, a seemingly loving husband and father, now behind bars for the murder of two little girls? Why is he charged with felony murder? Well, it all seems to hinge on this bullet, a shell found about two feet from the dead bodies between the two little girls. Joining me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now, but first I'm going to go straight out to Alexis McAdams,

Fox News national correspondent. You can find her on Insta and Twitter, Alexis McAdams TV. Alexis, thank you for being with us. You happen to be the first reporter to sit down and speak to lead detectives on the Delphi case. And what I'm reading in this affidavit, this PC

probable cause affidavit is a blockbuster. First of all, who opposed releasing the information? Police didn't want it released, but at the last court hearing, they said that they were fine with it coming out and that they didn't think that it would put their case in jeopardy. But before they had anybody in custody, they never wanted, you know, any of the information out there. And they still haven't released publicly how the girls were killed. You know, they're still sitting on evidence, but we're hearing a lot about this shell that was, quote,

cycled through Richard Allen's Sig Sauer. What do we know? Take a listen to Steve Brown. The Indiana State Police Laboratory determined the unspent round has been cycled through Richard Allen's Sig Sauer P226. Retired IMPD Detective Sergeant Greg Arkans tells us when a round or shell casing is ejected from a firearm that leaves distinct marks even if it isn't fired. Whenever a person unloads a gun that's loaded with a round in the chamber, then when you pull back on the slide, the extractor grabs a hold, and the extractor is made of hard metal,

where the shell casing is made of slightly softer metal, so it leaves very unique microscopic striations on the shell casing. How reliable is this information? I'm not a firearms examiner, but from my experience, I found it's like 98, 99 percent. Okay, let's break that down and put it in regular people talk. A striation is simply a scratch. I don't know why they make it sound so difficult. It's a scratch, but it's a very important scratch because this scratch, this striation is like a fingerprint. Joining me, Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon,

star of a hit new series, Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, let's just explain it as simply as possible. It doesn't have to be confusing. Okay? You take the known bullet, i.e. the bullet that's found right there between Abby and Libby. Right between them. And you get what you believe to be the murder weapon. And you fire a bullet from the murder weapon. You take the bullet you just fired. You put it under a microscope right beside the one you find at the crime scene. And you look through the microscope and you turn

them around. And lo and behold, no other gun in the world will make those marks. Explain why. Yeah. And there's a real important distinction here nancy this this round was not fired right if you could get back to why why the markings on the two bullets are like a fingerprint that's the question they use the term striation and striation merely means line and it and i don't know why they can't say that more simply. Okay, I just said that. Is this an echo chamber? No offense, Joe Scott Morgan.

But Cheryl McCollum, could you help Joe Scott talk in regular people talk? Just the question. How do you make a comparison? I spent two minutes asking this question. How do you make the fingerprint comparison? They're going to take that weapon. They're going to fire it. Did I not just say that? I know I'm saying how they're going to compare it. They took the actual weapon. They fired it in a chamber. They compared both distriations side by side. So those scratches line up. So it might be three tall scratches,

two short scratches, and another tall scratch. They're going to line up perfectly. So the way they do that is inside that weapon, they carve out these grooves. And the reason they do that is for the bullet to spin. And if you think about a football being thrown, the tighter that spiral is, the faster that ball goes and the more accurate that ball flies. Nancy, you're missing the point here. They did not have to fire the weapon. Is that Joe Scott again? Yes, it is. Okay, Jackie.

Just give me a second and I'll walk you through this. Okay. We were talking about why a gun leaves a mark on a bullet. Okay. When a gun is made, think of it in the factory. It's hot metal and it dries. Okay.

They polish the outside of the gun. It's all beautiful. The inside of the barrel is not polished and there are little dots and marks and imperfections on the inside of that gun. When that bullet hurls itself down the barrel, metal on metal, it makes a mark on the bullet. And only one gun has those defective marks on the inside. Does that make sense, Jackie? And so the bullet is branded, it's scratched based on the inside of the barrel. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Now, as Joe Scott so eagerly wants to tell us, and he's right, the bullet found between Libby and Abby wasn't fired. It had been, quote, cycled through Richard Allen's gun. Now, Joe Scott explained how those marks can be on the shell having never been fired. There's two components inside of this slide, of this weapon, this Sig Sauer. They're called ejector and extractor the extractor grabs the base of the bullet and like was said in in the clip this is soft metal so you have these metal on metal contacts and they are unique to this weapon so as this kind of claw reaches out and grabs the base of this round it pulls it back well as it's pulling it back, the ejector makes marks on the outer surface

of this round, and it throws it out to the side. You see this in movies a lot, where people in a very menacing way, a very intimidating way, will pull that slide back in order to cycle the weapon. It's what they're referring to, where they eject a round and put a new one in there. Okay. And it's kind of a menacing action to me. When you see this, what would be the purpose of ejecting a live round and re-injecting a fresh round? And so that's what you're dealing with. Those marks are unique to this Sig Sauer P226. One thing that people might not know about the P226, guess who famously uses this weapon?

The Navy SEALs have used this for years and years it's kind of a status thing he apparently bought this in like 2001 i believe you know sherman column i'm thinking about what jose scott morgan just said about ejecting a bullet and putting another one in can't you just see him doing that to scare the girls? Well, I think we can almost know in our heart what he did, because if he had forgotten that he had already, you know, racked that gun back, when he does it a second time, when that thing ejects, it goes to the right and back just a little bit. So you're talking about like a foot. So that to me, if that bullet is between victim one and victim two, it would appear to me that he was pointing that gun at victim one. And I believe that they were killed and they fell where they fell. And as fate would have it, that bullet was right there between them where he

had obviously unintentionally left it when he basically re-racked a SIG. What an idiot to leave it there. And to you, Dr. Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist, joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction at AngelaArnoldMD.com. Dr. Angie, he wouldn't have re-racked if the girls were already dead. I guarantee you, he re-racked. And you usually think of re-racking a shotgun, but as Joe Scott described it,

pulling out the chamber and putting a bullet in, and by doing that, one of the bullets came out, the bullet that was left behind. And by putting it in the chamber and racking it out, it left a mark. But my question to you, Dr. Angie, is the attempt to scare the girls even more, to overpower them.

He was trying to kidnap them, and they wouldn't go along with it. And he did that to scare them. Wow. And that very act, that one thing is what got him caught. I can't even imagine how scared those little girls must have been. Can you, Nancy? No, I really can't. I really cannot imagine how they were feeling.

For those of you just joining us, Bottleshell, in the release of documents, joining me, Alexis McAdams, Fox News national correspondent, who has been in Delphi throughout this ordeal. What do you believe, Alexis, led the judge to finally unseal this probable cause affidavit? I think all the pressure, Nancy, that was put on the judge and on Carroll County's prosecutor and just the whole county by the media. And there were so many people that were calling and asking for information and kept asking,

why can't you put it out there? And there were some people that were saying that one of the reasons they didn't want this out there was that because Richard Allen's family had been given so many death threats and that more specifically, they were going to have some information in there that let the public know that there was not just Richard Allen that was part of this, that they believed there was a second suspect. Wow, Alexis, the possibility there's a second co-defendant. And as of right now, everything's leading to Richard Allen alone that we know of, particularly this shell that matches up to his Sig Sauer. And not only

that, they tightened the noose by questioning him about the gun. Take a listen to Bob Segal. He told investigators he never allowed anyone to use or borrow that firearm. Investigators sent that gun to the Indiana State Police Crime Lab for analysis, and it was determined the unspent round located within two feet of Libby's body had been cycled through Richard M. Allen's gun. Then, on October 26th, state police again spoke to Allen, and when asked about the unspent bullet, he did not have an explanation of why the bullet was found between the bodies. He again admitted that he was on the trail but denied knowing Abby or Libby and denied

any involvement in their murders. One day later, Allen was charged with two counts of murder. Joining me, former Deputy State's Attorney in Calvert County, former assistant state's attorney and Prince George specializing in child abuse, sex offenses, and homicides, Fran Longwell. Fran, they really got him good right there, Fran, because normally in court or in statements, you ask a defendant, well, what about this gun? And they'll say, oh, yeah, it was stolen. I did not have it at the time of the murders. I didn't have that. You know, trying to distance themselves from the weapon at the time of the incident.

Or they'll say, oh, yeah, you know what? I lost it. I had it in my car, and I had my car and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Some way to suggest they did not have the gun in their possession at the time of the incident. But they go back when they're honing in on this gun. They go back and he tells them, oh no, I never let anybody else use or borrow this weapon. I keep it in my possession. He's dead in the water. I think he totally hung himself on that. I think at this point, he may not know that they had that casing, that they had it, the bullet recovered from the scene. He might not have known that.

Oh, that's smart. Yeah, right. So he's going to say, even like in the beginning, he admits he's on the, he admits he's out there. He admits he was on the walkway. He admits that he sees these three girls. He has to admit to those things to put him, he knows he's there. He's got himself put there. But he can explain away why these people thought it was him. I think he just didn't know that the bullet was recovered. So Cheryl McCollum joining me, forensic expert, founder of the Cold Case Research Institute. You can find her at coldcasecrimes.org on Insta at Cold Case Tips. Cheryl, that is so insightful, what she, Fran Longwell, just said.

And another reason we're saying, why didn't you arrest him earlier? You knew about him. You talked to him right after the incident because without that bullet being tracked back to his gun and he didn't know it was there he didn't realize he had left it i bet you anything if he had realized what he had done by leaving that evidence there he would have long gotten rid of that gun most likely but nancy again i think it's important for us to talk about we don't know how they were killed yet it might not have been with a gun so he had no reason to think the gun was involved at all other than to control them or intimidate them they could

have been killed with another weapon because to our knowledge nobody claimed to hear any gunshots or anything like that i do not believe they were shot shot, Cheryl McComb. I think you're right. Because we'd have an actual bullet that had been fired from the gun. But we don't have that. We have this one that was cycled through. It wasn't fired. That's right. But even if he racked it and fired again or, you know, later, he couldn't have collected those bullets as well.

And so he would have probably gotten rid of that gun. But to me, you know, you can't outrun a gun, but you can might, you know, try to outrun a knife. It seems like to me that was for control to get them to do what he wanted them to do. So Joe Scott, how do you think it played out? Why was this shell found on the ground between the two girls? My suspicion, Nancy, at this point is that when they went out there i don't know that they found the round while the bodies were there uh they went over the scene where the fine tooth come and one of the things and cheryl can attest to this one of the things if you have like leaves on the ground particularly in a wooded area those bullets will roll around many times and they probably went over the area with a metal detector, I would imagine, and they could have found it down there specifically. And the orientation of this thing is very, very interesting

because there would have been other forensic evidence, perhaps blood, that was surrounding this particular area. Remember, they're talking that this bullet is in very, very close proximity to both these two babies' bodies. So, back to my question, how do you think it played out? How did the shell land there? What do you think he was doing? I think he was either scaring them, intimidating them, or playing something out in his head while they laid there. I think this was for his own gratification.

And like you and I have talked about before, there is no way Libby decided to videotape somebody from a distance. Something overtly happened for her to do that. Well, not only is the shell leading directly to his SIG P226, he places himself there. Does the name Scott Peterson ring a bell? Yes, I know. There has been a documentary on cable TV claiming Peterson's innocent. I know that. And I know I'm in it. I know they burn me at the stake. You know what? Have at it. He places himself at the scene. Peterson placed himself at the marina in San Francisco Bay. The day Lacey goes missing, her body is found out in the San Francisco Bay. It washes up. Same thing here. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Alan places himself there at the bridge wearing the same outfit that's in the video, in the picture the girls took. Take a listen to our friends at WTHR.

Last month, on October 13th, investigators interviewed Allen again. According to the PC, Allen again said he was on the Monon High Bridge to watch the fish. He said he parked his car on the side of an old building and was wearing blue jeans and a blue or black Carhartt jacket with a hood.

Investigators say that matches the clothes worn by the man who Libby captured in this video on the day of the murder. Last month, Allen also told investigators he owns firearms. That same day, police executed a search warrant at his Delphi home and recovered jackets, boots, knives and firearms, including a Sig Sauer Model P226.40 caliber pistol. He doesn't just place himself there. And of all things, did I understand that correctly?

Alexis McAdams joining us from Fox News. Did he actually say he was on the bridge looking at fish? That's right. Yeah, he said he was on the bridge out there just taken in nature and looking at the fish. And when they asked him if he saw anybody out there with a group of young girls, he goes, yeah, I saw a few girls, but I didn't pay much attention because I was looking down at my phone. I thought he was looking at the fish. He said he was looking at the fish. Then he was looking at the phone.

He told investigators back, you know, almost six years ago now. So I guess then he added in the fish back in Octoberober looking at fish oh can i please jump in go ahead this is not a fit dude this is not a hiker there is no way that he parked down the street at an abandoned building and then decide to go on a hike and look at nature. No, no, no, no. Not just nature. He wanted to look at fish. Clear. Fish. Very clear. There's no way. Way up there on that tall bridge. How tall

is that bridge, Joe Scott? 63 feet. Thank you, Joe Scott Morgan. Jackie says 63 feet. Yeah. He must have really good eyesight to look down into the water from 63 feet. Second tallest bridge in Indiana. Thank you, Jackie.

Joe Scott, she's totally stealing your thunder, and she is not even meaning to. But guys, he doesn't just place himself there. Witnesses place him there. Take a listen to our friends at WDRB. Kind of creepy. That's how three juveniles described a man they walked past on the trail near Monon High Bridge on February 13th, 2017. That same afternoon, 14-year-old Libby German and 13-year-old Abby Williams disappeared. cause affidavit unsealed today says cell phone video recovered from one victim shows Williams and Germans encountering a man wearing a dark jacket and jeans who ordered guys get down the

hill near the end of the footage. This probable cause affidavit lays out that Allen places himself at the scene of the double murder of these two little girls. Witnesses place a man looking like him, wearing the clothes he describes he's wearing, and there's more. Take a listen to Fox 59 and WTHR. The PC also lists a witness whose name has been redacted who told investigators that she saw someone who matched Allen's description walking away from the bridge and his clothes were quote muddy and bloody it appeared he had gotten into a fight. A probable cause affidavit only needs to present enough evidence to convince a judge to issue an arrest warrant not necessarily enough to score a conviction. And they're not releasing very much information at all they

released just enough in the probable cause to show that they had a valid reason to arrest him. They didn't put anything else in the probable cause. Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland told the court last week that to release the probable cause could jeopardize the case and that he thought someone else was involved in the killings. Acclaimed former IPD homicide commander Robert Snow says the redacted PC doesn't back up. When I read the probable cause, no, I didn't see anything there that would implicate another person, no. Investigators say they think Richard Allen is the man in the video captured on Libby's cell phone. Have they matched that voice to his? We don't know.

And again, there's no explanation why Allen is charged with felony murder instead of murder. If he's charged with felony murder, someone else is also involved in the case. That's what makes me believe there is someone else involved in the case. So you've got a list of witnesses who tell investigators they see a guy matching Allen's description, muddy and bloody. Okay, straight out to you, Cheryl McCollum, what does that mean? It means he didn't shoot him. It means he probably used a straight edge weapon. It means that's where the staging comes in that we know from the FBI information.

He positioned them. He staged them. He spent over an hour and 21 minutes from when he was seen on the bridge and when he was seen with his bloody jeans so from 2 14 to 3 35 is when this whole crime occurred it doesn't take an hour and 21 minutes to kill two people so he spent a lot of time there that's probably when he did the staging took the souvenirs and did whatever he did to them which was for his own gratification relative to this muddy and bloody context the statement it's important to understand that even if he destroyed those clothes which

there's a chance that he did that he was was wearing. This is very intimate, and he will have transferred his own unique evidence to these bodies, perhaps. And that can be a tieback to him and the bodies. We don't know that yet. But because he had this contact trace evidence on him per this witness, if that's the case, that's going to be significant here. Alexis McAdams mentioned earlier the specter of a co-defendant. Now you're hearing a homicide detective state that because he's charged with felony murder, that makes the detective suspect there is another person involved. I don't necessarily see that unless the person was helping to cover up,

but take a listen now to our Cut 94 WTHR. So his clothes, his car, his gun, investigators say all of them point to Richard Allen. Now this document references a lot of witnesses who say they think they saw the killer on the trail or near the bridge on the day of the murders. One witness reported seeing a man walking away from the area with clothes that were muddy and bloody. Another important point here that we want to point out. This document mentions only Allen as being involved in the crime. But remember, last week in court, we heard the prosecutor say that another person could be involved as well. Straight out to Alexis McAdams.

What do you make of that? Another person involved, not just Allen? Yeah, I mean, that's something that they had mentioned possibly in the very beginning when we had talked to different investigators, both on camera and off camera over time, the main question was, how do you get two girls down the hill without them fighting back, which is where the gun had kind of come in in the past, where people tried to really zoom in, Nancy, and try to see on that video clip and that picture that was blurry, if the man who had his head down walking had anything in his pocket or in his jacket there, that could have forced those girls down the hill there. And now we're trying to learn still more about who this other person could be. And the court documents that were released, these girls who were out there that day,

same age as Abby and Libby on a day off from school having fun near the bridge, said they saw a man wearing all blue like a duck canvas type jacket, his head down, wasn't friendly, they called him creepy. But if you go down a little bit, there was another girl who said there was a man not very tall with a bigger build about 5'10 said he was wearing a black hoodie black jeans and black boots with his hands in his pocket so that's a completely different description and then you think back to they've released two sketches one that looks a lot like Alan and one that looks like a younger man that isn't anybody who's in custody yet so there's unanswered questions there to Dr. Angela Arnold I find it really hard to believe

that you could get another guy in town to go along with what I believe to be the intended sex attack, kidnap, and ultimately murder of two little girls and that be kept a secret. I find that really hard to believe. Oh, I completely agree with you, Nancy, because what do people do?

People talk and people brag. There is no way. I'm going out on a limb here, but I don't think I completely agree with you. I do not think there is any way that someone else was involved in this. And if there was someone else, then why didn't they see? Then why didn't people see somebody else when they saw him when he was all bloodied and coming up from out of there? You know, I'm also curious about something that Alexis McAdams also mentioned. Cheryl McCollum, the way that a car matching the description of his car was parked in an odd,

like a Batman cave way where the tag was obscure, where no one could see the tag. It was his car tucked away and hidden near the scene of the murders. Right. And again, Nancy, this is not what you would do if you were headed to hike. That was my point earlier. Nobody said hike. He said he was looking at fish, which is even more absurd. It is absurd.

But even to get there, if you park in the parking lot, you've still got a pretty good track to get to the bridge is what I'm saying. He wouldn't have made it more difficult for himself and much further to get there, much less hiding his tag, trying to shield people from seeing his car as they drive by. Because if you park at an angle like that and you're driving down the street, you wouldn't see it hardly at all. So we're lucky we even have that. You know, Fran Longwell, joining me, former deputy state's attorney and former assistant state's attorney, Fran Longwell, a probable cause affidavit is bare bones. It's just enough to get the search or the arrest warrant. That's all it is.

Otherwise, a jury trial would last about 15 minutes if everything that you show the jury was in the PC. I mean, this is just the beginning of what we're going to learn, Fran. That's exactly true. And I'm concerned because they had arrested a guy last December and they had arrested him right after the incident someone who had an instant Instagram account or he had a fake Instagram account and admitted to talking to Libby that morning and trying to arrange to meet with her on the bridge so is he the other person involved it's very possible that he was the, and if he was with the other guy, he would be the one that would lure them to the bridge. So he knew when he got there at 1.30

that those girls were going to be on the bridge at that time to meet with this guy. I'm expecting a lot more to come out at trial. Alexis McAdams, he's been charged with felony murder, which very simply put means that a death occurred during a felony. In this case, I assume that underlying felony is kidnap, although he's not specifically charged with kidnap, is he? No, they haven't mentioned anything about that. If you charge felony murder, you don't have to charge the underlying crime. That's the advantage of charging it. Yeah. You proved felony murder, you don't have to charge the underlying crime. That's the advantage of charging it. You proved it, but you don't have to charge it. You're absolutely correct.

And I've been dumbfounded that he was not charged with kidnapping, Fran, because, of course, kidnapping does not mean you have to put somebody in your car trunk and drive them 60 miles away and keep them hidden in a hotel or in a dungeon. You can move your victim a foot. It's called asportation or 100 miles. If they're moved at all, for instance, from that bridge down to the bottom of the bridge, that's asportation under the law. But he's not charged with kidnapping. And speaking of another legal hurdle, now there's a request for a change of venue, which, believe it or not, I agree with the defense. There should be a change of venue. Take a listen to our Cut 95 WLFI.

Allen's attorneys also asked for a change of venue. They asked that the trial be moved somewhere at least 150 miles away from Carroll County. Attorneys Andrew Baldwin and Brad Rosie say the publicity the case has gotten and the small population of Carroll County would make it impossible to find jurors without a connection to the case or ideas about Allen's innocence or guilt. I fully expect a change of venue, but the families of Libby and Abby

are wondering what took so long. Take a listen to our cut 98 from NBC. Investigators first spoke to Richard Allen back in 2017. And at that time, Allen told investigators he was on the trails by the Monon High Bridge between 1.30 and 3.30 on the day of the murders. The PC did not say why investigators spoke to him back in 2017. Then, last month, on October 13th, investigators interviewed Allen again. According to the PC, Allen again said he was on the Monon High Bridge to watch the fish. He said he parked his car on the side of an old building and was wearing blue jeans and a blue or black Carhartt jacket with a hood. Investigators say

that matches the clothes worn by the man who Libby captured in this video on the day of the murder. What happened between the time they spoke to him for the first time in 2017 to 2022? Who, if anyone else, is involved in the double murders of these two little girls on the bridge in Delphi. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.