Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Shocking details! Search warrants reveal Jennifer Dulos afraid for her life, hubby Fotis Dulos tried to run her over with car.

Episode Date: January 17, 2020

New details released in the investigation into the disappearance of Jennifer Dulos. Search warrants show Dulos was afraid of her husband and his repeated threats to leave with their children. Court document show Fotis Dulos once tried to run over his wife with a car. Joining Nancy Grace today to discuss: Laura Ingle - Fox News National Correspondent Wendy Patrick- California prosecutor, author “Red Flags” www.wendypatrickphd.com  Bobby Chacon - Former Special Agent FBI, current star of FB Watch Series "Curse of Akakor" Joe Scott Morgan Forensics Expert, Professor of Forensics, Author,"Blood Beneath My Feet" Dr Bethany Marshall, Psychoanalyst, Beverly Hills, www.drbethanymarshall.com Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. A gorgeous young mom disappears, leaving five children in the care of her mother. Why the mom? Because the husband, Fotis Doulos, is suspected in connection with her disappearance. After he and his lawyer dragged Jennifer Dulos' reputation through the mud, now new blood evidence emerges. 800 previously sealed pages of evidence. We've gotten our mitts on it. From pools of blood to a bloody cell phone and iPad in Jennifer Dulos' bedroom

to a cup of warm tea and an open granola bar on the kitchen counter. What happened to Jennifer Dulos? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jennifer disappeared on May 24th after dropping her kids off at school. Authorities believe she was the victim of a serious physical assault, discovering bloodstains in her garage.

The couple was locked in a vicious divorce and custody battle. Jennifer claiming in 2017 court documents, I am terrified for my family's safety. He is dangerous. Fotis Dulos strongly denying any threatening behavior. Fotis and his live-in girlfriend, Michelle Traconis, both out on bail after pleading not guilty to charges of evidence tampering and hindering prosecution. According to arrest warrants, surveillance video from the night Jennifer went missing

captured two people police suspect to be Fotis and Traconis tossing bags, including a blood-stained sponge, into trash cans around Hartford, Connecticut. You are hearing our friends at ABC. That was Whit Johnson. And for somebody like me, like many of you, it's just a field day to go through blood evidence, spatter, droppings, fingerprints, trace DNA surveillance. Just the extravaganza of looking at forensic evidence is very luring. But I want to remind everybody, as we enter into this hour, there are five children without a mother. This morning, when I dropped the children off at drop-off at school, knowing that I was about to be with Dr. Bethany Marshall and Joseph Scott Morgan, Bobby Chacon, Wendy Patrick, Laura Engel, I thought about, as I drove away, what if I never saw my children again in life? What if they never saw me again in life? Never

got to hug them, never got to kiss them. Never got to pack their snacks for school or watch their games. What if? Just like that. An otherwise normal morning and they never see mommy again. And not only that, when they are old enough to look at the internet they will see claims that mommy was crazy that mommy was hiding out with a boyfriend that mommy committed suicide that mommy abandoned them think about that I'm Nancy grace this is crime. Thank you for being with us. Even in the last hours, the case is changing. With me, an all-star panel, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, Beverly Hills, drbethanymarshall.com, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, Joseph Scott Morgan,

Bobby Chacon, former special agent, FBI star of Facebook Watch series Curse of Akakor. Well-known California prosecutor, author of Red Flags. You can find her at WendyPatrickPhD.com, Wendy Patrick. But right now to Fox News national correspondent on the case from the beginning in the doulos mansion laura engel laura is it true that the defense wants a probable cause hearing yep not only do they want a probable cause hearing they say they are looking forward to getting into that courtroom to ask a judge how they can possibly charge Godas Duluth with murder. They want to know what probable cause investigators have.

Okay, maybe I'm crazy, Laura, but didn't I hear the medical examiner say that there was so much blood, pools of blood. Like, you take a gallon of milk and you just pour it on the ground joe scott morgan how much blood is in the body how much blood do we have do we have a gallon do we have five gallons yeah right at uh right at about two gallons in the body uh nancy and two gallons that's it yeah two i think of a gallon If you've got copious amounts of blood, which is a large amount, and that's generally how it's going to be described, you know that something nasty is afoot. You know that great harm has come to somebody,

because I've got to tell you, Nancy, it doesn't just appear by magic. Well, Laura Engel, Fox News national correspondent, the MA said it all, although I think he was pussyfooting around when he said the amounts of blood indicate a non-survivable injury why not just call it like it is don't put perfume on the pig jennifer is dead that's what that means non-survivable she's dead okay laura what's the latest so the latest a couple of things have happened this week. Investigators have finally released the search warrants that were issued last year in the summer, and we're talking 469 pages. There are a couple of

highlights of new information in here that we did not know. We are learning how investigators have been piecing together their case as we look through the pages of the search warrant. A couple of highlights include a list of several potential physical altercations between Fotis Doulos and his then wife, Jennifer, and these incidents happened in 2017. Remember, as we rewind the story, Jennifer and Fotis Doulos are going through this contentious, bitter custody and divorce battle for the five children. And in the search warrants, we learn from the nanny, Lauren Almieta, who is currently still with the children from all the reports we've had that she is helping the grandmother with these five children in New York City in the grandmother's apartment. In June of 2017, she states that she went out to the driveway

and found Jennifer crying after she had just been talking to Fotis, and Jennifer said that her husband, Fotis, had tried to hit her with his vehicle, and she had to jump out of the way. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You know, Laura Engel, I got so carried away just listening to you. It's just, it's more than, as a prosecutor, when I would try a murder case, this is enough evidence for three murder cases. Now, let me understand this.

The babysitter says that she saw, as I understand it, Jennifer Dulos crying after Fotis Dulos tried to run her over with his vehicle in the family driveway. That's what she told police. But let me give you the other side of the coin here really quick, because Fotis' sister, Rena, who we have met, is now back in Greece. She told the Hartford Courant that she was actually in the vehicle with her brother when this alleged incident occurred and said, in fact, and she says, too, that the children were in the vehicle and said her brother did not try to run over Jennifer. In fact, Jennifer jumped in front of the car to stop them. And that's why. And the kids in the car started laughing, she says, because they thought their mother was making a joke. So there's another side of, you know, their side of the story and said her brother isn't

violent and, you know, had absolutely no reason to try to run her over. He was just simply trying to leave. And it was Jennifer who jumps in front of the car. So that's their version of the story. Okay. Let me understand something else. What about the claim by the same babysitter that Fotis Dulos was chasing Jennifer Dulos through the home, screaming her pounding on the door once she locked herself, I guess, in the bathroom, and he did not realize that they were there and that they saw what happened? Right. This is another account in 2017. Lord Almeida is in a room with one of the five Dulos children. She reports to police.

She's, you know, kind of painting a picture of what life was like while they were going through the divorce and while they were in the marital home. This is the home that we did our interview in, in December, December 20th of 2019. And it is a large home. It is 10,000 square feet. So we don't know how long she had been running through the house, but she apparently runs up the stairs and it's a beautiful large staircase and goes into a room. She says, Fotis is chasing her screaming. She runs in, she barricades herself, you know, out of breath, bracing herself, trying to get him from coming in. And once he does get into the room, he looks around, she says, and realizes that the nanny and a child is there and calms down. And when asked, why didn't she call the police? Lauren Almeida,

the nanny says she was terrified of him and was afraid that he was going to take the children permanently to his homeland of Greece. That is another tale that we see repeated in the divorce and custody papers long ago that she was always afraid that he was going to take those children forever and take them away. Take a listen to our friend at Fox 61, Tony Terzi. Dating back to 2017 when their contentious divorce and custody the THE COUPLE HAD SPLIT UP. THE COUPLE HAD SPLIT UP. THE COUPLE HAD SPLIT UP. THE COUPLE HAD SPLIT UP. THE COUPLE HAD SPLIT UP. THE COUPLE HAD SPLIT UP.

THE COUPLE HAD SPLIT UP. THE COUPLE HAD SPLIT UP. THE COUPLE HAD SPLIT UP. THE COUPLE HAD SPLIT UP. THE COUPLE HAD SPLIT UP. THE COUPLE HAD SPLIT UP. THE COUPLE HAD SPLIT UP. THE COUPLE HAD SPLIT UP. home when Jennifer was being chased around the house by Fotis until she ran into their bedroom, slammed the door, and stood up against the door. One of her children and Almeda watched. And

according to Almeda, Jennifer said Fotis had threatened to take the children to Greece permanently. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The court documents indicate the last time Jennifer Dulos used her phone was at 7.57 in the morning last May 24th to text Almeda. That was right around the time she had dropped THE LAST TIME SHE USED HER PHONE WAS AT 7.57 IN THE MORNING LAST MAY 24TH TO TEXT ALMEDA.

THAT WAS RIGHT AROUND THE TIME SHE HAD DROPPED HER FIVE CHILDREN OFF AT SCHOOL. SHE THEN RETURNED TO HER NEW CANAN HOME WHERE POLICE THEORIZE FOTUS DULOS WAS LYING IN WAIT IN HER GARAGE. BACK IN JUNE AFTER THE FIRST

ARRESTS OF MICHELLE TRACONis Doulos, Doulos' attorney, Norm Pattis, said his phone records will show that there's no way he could have been involved in the disappearance of his estranged wife, Jennifer Doulos. But in today's documents that were released, investigators said they don't have any evidence that would clear Fotis Dulos. You're hearing our friends at Fox 61. That was Tony Terzi. What I don't understand is, and maybe I'm wrong, Laura Engel, Fox News national correspondent, did Jennifer Dulos have a TRO against Fotis Dulos? There was a lot of information in the divorce and custody paperwork that we saw that there was, she had gone to the family court judge and asked for

protection. She states in her divorce papers, I know that by filing for divorce, he will try to harm me in some way. He has often mentioned sick revenge fantasies to me. I am terrified. Those are the words that we saw long ago. From what we can gather from these court documents, there was to be a court-appointed guardian of some kind. I don't remember the name of it, but they always had somebody there to watch Fotis Dulos visiting the children. They were not supposed to talk to each other. As far as the TRO, I'm not sure the status of that, but I know that every time that Fotis was around his children, there had to be, it was a court supervised visit every single time. They were never together alone without somebody watching over them.

Well, that's curious. To Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, author of Red Flags, you don't get that in place where your husband, the father of the children, cannot see the children unless it's supervised. Fotis Dulos hated that, but she was afraid he would take the children to Greece, but that's got to be court ordered. The mom can't say, hey, you can't see them unless you're supervised. It doesn't work that way. Weigh in, Wendy. That's right. You know, Nancy, many people hear the word restraining order and think, you know, you just go to court and you ask for one, you get one. It is a process. And that process comes with due process. And that

means noticing an opportunity to fight back at the hearing. And that's no doubt exactly what happened here as it happens with every other hearing, particularly when there are children involved. So the long and short of it is there had to have been facts presented at that hearing that were sufficient to have that judge believe it was in the best interest of everybody to actually put it in place.

Well, we don't know how it all started, but we do know how it ended. Take a listen to News 12 Connecticut, Marissa Alter. Arrest warrants now show a search of her new Canaan home the next day found blood stains, blood spatter and evidence someone tried to clean up the crime scene. The warrants also say Fotis Dulos and Triconis were captured on surveillance cameras stopping at more than 30 locations along a four-mile stretch in Hartford to throw out multiple trash bags. Police later recovered those items and tests confirmed they were stained with Jennifer

Dulos's blood. How do you tell, Judge Scott Morgan, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, if someone has tried to clean up the scene? I mean, it seems counterintuitive. You clean it up, you don't see the mess. But actually, when you try to clean up a crime scene, not only is there still trace evidence, but cops can tell if they look carefully that you've done a cleanup. Oh, yeah, you're absolutely right. And if we just completely dismiss this idea that they found sponges and all this other stuff that was trashed, you get what are called swipes, where individuals have gone in and there's a collection of blood. They'll apply some cleaner to it or whatnot, and they'll take some other item like a sponge

or a rag or a towel and they'll wipe across it. So when this luminescence, let's say we use an agent like Luminol or Blue Star, it'll actually give you an indication that someone has made it made an attempt to clean up just think at home if you're trying to clean up something off of a cabinet and you wipe across it and it leaves these kind of strided lines across it that's an indication that someone has potentially attempted to clean up an area right now bombshell photos doulos charging his wife's murder wants a superior court judge to schedule a hearing to determine whether the state has probable cause to arrest him. Now, usually defendants will waive that kind of hearing

because they give the prosecution insight into their case. Also, it's really not good for the state because the state prosecutors have to show their hand and reveal evidence and thereby subject their witnesses to cross-exam. Back to Laura Engel, Fox News National Correspondent. Laura, so much is unfolding in the last hours. What more do we know? Well, we've got more information coming out in these 469 pages of search warrants that were released to the public. Two of the other big things here is more detail about the blood evidence found inside Jennifer's garage the day that she vanished. We've talked about what that information was so far, but now we're learning included in the police findings is a partial bloody footprint on the concrete floor

inside of the garage, blood on both garbage cans that were inside of the garage, and blood on one of the garbage cans left side handle. So even more evidence of blood that we did not know about until the search warrants were released. The other key thing that was made public, long throughout this investigation, we have heard over and over again that Michelle Triconis, the girlfriend, had said the night that they were spotted on video surveillance in Hartford with Fotis dropping off all those garbage bags, we had only heard before that she was in the vehicle. There's only one point so far that we knew that she was seen leaning out of the car,

sounding like she was either putting out or picking up a cigarette. Now the search warrants tell us that they have her on video surveillance, actually getting out of the vehicle, exiting the truck and helping to throw bags into dumpsters. All along, she told investigators she had claimed she was on her phone and had no idea what he was doing. She only knew that they were in a, quote, creepy area, but she was on her phone not paying attention. Now we know that there is evidence that we will see at trial of her getting out of the vehicle and tossing those garbage bags into dumpsters. Garbage bags which have now tested that we have the evidence in the original

arrest warrant that her DNA is on the knots of the bags. Her DNA is on the tape that is taping a couple of those garbage bags together. There is more involvement that we know of now with the release of the search. Wow. That is a forensic coup really for the state because Joseph Scott Morgan professor forensics with her Michelle Tricone and then I'm going to circle back with you Bethany about how this really changes the position of the mistress Michelle Tricone. She's not just driving along in a luxury SUV chatting on her phone like she said. She is caught on video actually throwing out Jennifer Dulos's bloody bra, her bloody clothes, bloody sponges. But to you first, Joska Morgan, why is it so significant? Not just the video Laura Engel Fox News has just told us about,

but the fact that her, Michelle Draconis, the mistress, the girlfriend of the husband, her DNA in the knots and the tape in these plastic bags. This is so significant, Nancy, because this is what's referred to as forensic connectivity. You can have physical evidence, and remember what Laura just said. In the warrant, they're talking about that her DNA was actually found on the bag knot as it was tied. How do you explain that away? And on the surface of the tape, there is touch DNA. And just a brief primer, we lose almost 100,000 skin cells per day just naturally sloughing off. Well, her DNA has transferred now over to these surfaces.

And one more thing, Nancy, that's really key relative to what Laura said. Not only was this a footprint that they're talking about that they found in the garage, this is a shoe print, Nancy. That means it will have a specific identifier. If they can pick up on the wear patterns on this shoe, that's going to tie it back to somebody. This is bombshell information. This is key information that will tie all of this back together. I think the defense is going to have a hard time explaining this. You know, I hate to even say these two words, Bruno Molle. Who could forget Bruno Molle? Is it it just me am i the only one that remembers

bruno molly the shoe yes at the bloody crime scene where nicole brown's head was practically severed there's just a little skin on the back of her neck holding her head onto her body there was a very distinctive shoe print just like like Joseph Scott Morgan is describing. No doubt about it, it was a very expensive Italian shoe, a Bruno Mali. When confronted with that, Simpson says, I've never had any, quote, his words, not mine, ugly-ass shoes like that.

That's Simpson. And then, lo and behold, the National Enquirer pulls up a picture of him on the sidelines of a football game commenting, wearing those, quote, ugly-ass shoes, the Bruno Mollies. Yes, it's deja vu all over again. But Dr. Bethany Marshall, I got to ask you several questions. Let me just start with the significance of what Laura Engel, Fox News, has just said and told us, that she's poured through all of these new documents and found where the girlfriend, the lover of married Fotis Dulos, she's caught on camera. She's not just sitting there with her feet up on the dashboard talking on her cell phone while they're discarding murder evidence. She's

getting out of the car, throwing it out herself, and her DNA is in the knots of the plastic bags. Well, what that tells me, Nancy, a lot about the psychodynamics of the marriage itself between Fotis and Jennifer. It tells me that he was obsessional and paranoid about being betrayed by her. I wish he could have just divorced her and shared the children back and forth. But abusers can never do that. They don't problem solve. They do not know how to be separate from loved ones. They want to possess and control loved ones. So I think that Fotis was pathologically jealous of Jennifer. He felt betrayed. He had all kinds of negative emotions. So he develops a relationship with the mistress, Michelle, in a sense to get even with Jennifer.

He starts a love triangle. And I think that he starts to obsess with Michelle about how he feels betrayed by his ex-wife, how his ex-wife is controlling the children and turning the children against him and how she's going to take all of his money. And how can he, Fotis, have a great life with Michelle when the wife is there interfering in their love? And what Michelle doesn't know is that she's beginning to be used she is being drawn into this plot to become a co-conspirator and homicide okay wait bethany dr bethany why is have you ever seen women that and i always just see with women maybe men do it too but they start hanging say uh you start hanging out with a biker dude suddenly dressing just like him what i'm saying is uh you see people following along with whoever they're

dating so questioned why is michelle traconis what woman in their right mind would say sure i'll help you throw out the bloody clothes. She's just like under his spell. Because there is a very particular psychology to this kind of acting in concert with a perpetrator. What happens is the perpetrator, in this case Fotis, begins to convince Michelle that it's them against the world. They draw the woman in through paranoia, shared paranoia. And what I mean by that is that he probably is saying, my wife, Jennifer, is hurting me. She's going to take the children from me.

If she calls the police, then my career is over. You and I will never have any money. Every time we see a Bonnie and Clyde situation, which this is where someone acts in concert with another, whoever the aggressor or perpetrator it is, whether it's the man or the woman, draws the other person into a belief system that it is them against the world. And unfortunately, Michelle took this to a pathological and criminal level, and there must be something hateful and homicidal inside of her too to allow herself to become ensnared in all of this. CRIME STORIES WITH NANCY GRACE.

Police still have not found Jennifer Dulos' body, but based on the evidence and the amount of blood loss, the medical examiner has considered this a homicide. Fotis, why'd you do it? THE FAMILY IS IN THE HOSPITAL AND THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL WITH THEIR CHILDREN. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL.

THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL.

THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL.

THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. THEY ARE IN THE HOSPITAL. and kidnapping. Jennifer Dulos, last seen alive on May 24th after dropping her children off at

school. Police revealing an arrest warrant today. They believe Fotis Dulos rode a vintage bicycle to Jennifer's home, killed her, covered up the crime, and disposed of her body. The warrant detailing seven locations where blood-like stains matching Jennifer's DNA were found at her new Canaan home. That is NBC News 4 reporter Mark Santia. In the last hours, hundreds of pages of documents released, we find pools of Jennifer's blood found in the garage, the bedroom, until search warrants reveal, along with interviews with the nanny who said murder suspect husband Fotis Dulos tried to run

over Jennifer in his car and chased her through the house. With me right now, Laura Engel, Fox News national correspondent. I am now learning, Laura Engel, that there's not just evidence of pools of blood in the garage, but also in the bedroom. In my scenario that I had pieced to get cobbled together, I thought she was killed in the garage and never made it in. But also there seems to be blood on a phone and blood on a tablet in the bedroom. Plus now another pool of blood, Laura Engel? Well, what we've read in these search warrants,

that a cellular telephone and tablet were found on the master bedroom night stand. I'm uncertain if there was blood found on those things, but it was important for the police to note the telephone and tablet in the master bedroom because there seems to be some conflicting information about where her phone was. Because remember, the day she goes missing, she drops children off at school. The nanny comes into the house. You know, the timeline is just terrifying to think about because she comes into the house just an hour after something has happened to Jennifer. At the 11 o'clock hour in the morning, she comes back to the house and she sees Jennifer's mug of tea, an unopened granola bar on the kitchen, and what she apparently left before she went to school because she had maybe two telephones, two cell phones, one of which had pinged over by her car where the truck was found at the park, and then this other one.

So that is another piece of the puzzle that we are hoping will be put together as we move forward in this case. I'm looking at a news report that says cops also found traces of blood on a tablet and a phone in her master bedroom. It doesn't say cell phone, landline, and a tablet. I guess they're saying an iPad. Now, you know what? You're telling me something new, Laura Engel, about the cup of tea and the unopened granola bar. That changes my theory. That seems to me that maybe she did get out of the car and get in the home. I mean, I'm not sure. What do you make of it, Laura Ingalls?

You know, it's hard. It's hard to piece it together with that information, knowing that there was remember, there was a piece of DNA evidence on the kitchen faucet sink. That was a droplet of her blood and photostealosis DNA. There was also photis Dulos' DNA on the mudroom door, on the doorknob. So it sounds as though, I mean, when we look at what happened in the garage, it's so bloody, it's so massive. And whoever went into the house had to be so careful because when the nanny comes home at around 11 a.m., she doesn't see, she doesn't walk in and say, oh my gosh, this is a bloody crime scene. She didn't go into the garage. She just went into the kitchen and didn't notice anything. Just like, wow, why is her mug of tea

here? Why is the granola bar here? And it was also a purse that was found in the kitchen. The other note of what the nanny found was that she went to go use a paper towel because she wanted she was washing the mug um as a courtesy to jennifer and she went to go grab for a paper towel and all the paper the paper towel roll was empty she said huh that's weird i just put 12 rolls of paper towels into the house yesterday why would they go through a towel? And then she opens the pantry and there's only two left. So she's thinking, how on earth did these guys, this family, go through 10 rolls of paper towels? That's what's noted in these arrest warrants and the search warrants released. Bobby Chacon, former FBI star on Facebook, that these simple little things mean so much. Like, I a lot of times don't have time to go shopping, which I hate anyway. And I will order, you know, fine cut rate paper towels or toilet paper, whatever. I'll order it and get free delivery.

And there it is at the door. I know exactly how much I order and they come in bulk of 12 if I order them and stick them in the pantry and then the next day they're all gone and the one that I have out by the coffee maker is also empty I know something happened now that's not high-tech DNA that Joe Scott Morgan wants to talk about, but it's evidence that will mean something to a jury, something significant. I don't need a medical examiner to tell me there were large pools of blood when I find out there are 12 empty rolls of paper towels. That's right, and it's one of those, you know, seemingly mundane details that really mean a lot

to us as investigators when we try to piece together the story of what happened, and that's our job, is to use the physical evidence to piece together what we think happened. And so something like that, seemingly innocuous detail, really kind of really sends us in a certain direction. And obviously those paper towels were used to clean up this crime scene and deposited in those bags that we saw on video being disposed

of. And that's the story of what you want the jury to hear. And a prosecutor will take the jury through that story. And this is one of those great details that adds richness and depth to the story that allow people to know it's believable, all of these details matter and all of these details add up to the story that the prosecutor will tell the jury and the jury will ultimately hopefully believe in this case. I mean, when you look at, you know, that's what's so important to me as an investigator. When you look at the amount of blood and where the blood was found, you start to think that this wasn't an assassination. In other words, in my mind, this was probably a knife attack. It was probably vicious.

And if we saw the body in its state the way it was when it was killed, we would probably call it overkill because there's so much blood. The blood is throughout the house now. It got all over the perpetrator, whoever that was. And so this wasn't a case where the person was shot in the head and immediately dropped to the floor and there was a small pool of blood to be cleaned up. The blood was everywhere and it was on the perpetrator and the perpetrator tracked it through the house. And so now we, in my mind, we theorize this was a vicious attack, probably using a knife or a blunt instrument that went on for a few minutes and caused a lot of bleeding to the victim before the victim died. Back to Laura Engel, Fox News. What can you tell me about clear ponchos? Clear ponchos were found within the garbage bags that were discarded and Hartford in those

dumpsters and multiple trash receptacles, lots of garbage cans, lots of, you know, a picture being in the back of an alley of a restaurant. Those are the types of places that these garbage bags were found. And when they opened them, they found a long list of things that were later tested to have a positive identification for DNA for Jennifer Dulos, Fotis Dulos, and Michelle Triconis. Most of the Michelle Triconis DNA matches were on the outside of the bags, I will mention, and that not. But inside, there were clear ponchos with blood-like stains that matched Jennifer Dulos' DNA. And also the zip ties with blood on them, with blood-like substance is what it's called in the warrant. The black husky gloves, there's another pair of gloves that were found.

One of the pairs of gloves had photostulosis DNA inside the glove. Things like that were discovered. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, Beverly Hills, Dr. Bethany, this takes it to a whole new level in my mind. And I would love to point this out to a jury. The fact that they go by ponchos. It's like Dexter, how he would wrap the whole dismemberment scene in plastic so not a speck of blood would get on the room or the walls or the floor. They plan this down to the tiniest details,

even getting ponchos and gloves to cover themselves so they would not get her blood on their clothes. Well, they planned it, but not so well, because it sounds like they accosted her in the garage, but then didn't think about all the blood that would get over their own hands and their own bodies, went back to the kitchen, tried to wash themselves, put deposited blood and debris on the kitchen faucet, then tried to gather her belongings like her tablet, deposited blood there. So they planned and planned, but at the end of the day, they're both amateurs. So they really did not know what they were doing. In terms of the psychology of the planning,

I think with what we call catathymic homicide, what that is, is when there's a compulsion to kill and the compulsion waxes and wanes over time and takes on kind of a ritualistic quality. With catathymic homicide, whether it's a couple or an individual who begins to gather the accoutrement for the kill, there's kind of an excited ritualistic quality, you know, going to target, getting the plastic, getting the ponchos, planning, thinking about where the dump site is going to be for the body, planning multiple dump sites. So not only are they ridding themselves of the victim, but in some excited, strange kind of way, it's almost like foreplay for the rest of their life. They're bonding with each other and trying to prepare for a life together in some sick and twisted way. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Jennifer and Fotis had been in the midst of a bitter divorce battle. In court documents, Jennifer seemed to fear for her safety, claiming in 2017, I am afraid of my husband. I know that filing for divorce and filing this motion will enrage him. I know he will retaliate by trying to harm me in some way. Fotis Dulo strongly denied any threatening behavior, calling his wife incapable of parenting because she allegedly was taking anti-psychotic and anti-anxiety medications. I've seen it so many times and every time it's heartbreaking. Jennifer said at the time the split started, she was afraid.

She was afraid to file for divorce. She was afraid her husband would seek vengeance on her. You are hearing me speaking with my friends at ABC. Jennifer Dulos dead. There's no doubt about it. And right now, the defense attorneys for her husband, Fotis Dulos, are insisting on a probable cause hearing to see and test the state's evidence to see if there is even probable cause to arrest him but I can tell you this the people in New Canaan see it differently take a listen when word first spread early this afternoon folks in town say people were honking their horns making sure

everyone had heard Art Keene owns this mobile station he says it was like a party I got a kick THE PARTY WAS HONKING THEIR HORNS, MAKING SURE EVERYONE HAD HEARD. ART KEENE OWNS THIS MOBILE STATION. HE SAYS IT WAS LIKE A PARTY. I GOT A KICK OUT OF THEM HITTING THE HORNS. I THOUGHT THERE WAS A PARTY GOING. I DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT. UNTIL MY SON TOLD ME ABOUT IT.

TURNS OUT THE PARTY WAS ACTUALLY NEWS OF THE ARREST. YES. YES. THIS IS A COMMUNITY THAT JUMPED INTO ACTION WHEN JENNIFER DULOS WENT MISSING. PASSING OUT FLIERS, ASSISTING

POLICE WITH THE SEARCH. FOLKS HERE SAY THEY'RE NOT SURPRISED TO HEAR HER ESTRANGED HUSBAND HAS BEEN KILLED. THEY SAY THEY'RE NOT SURPRISED TO HEAR HER ESTRANGED HUSBAND HAS BEEN KILLED. THEY SAY THEY'RE NOT SURPRISED

TO HEAR HER ESTRANGED HUSBAND HAS BEEN KILLED. THEY SAY THEY'RE NOT SURPRISED TO HEAR HER ESTRANGED HUSBAND HAS BEEN KILLED. THEY SAY THEY'RE NOT SURPRISED TO HEAR HER ESTRANGED HUSBAND HAS BEEN KILLED. THEY SAY THEY'RE NOT SURPRISED TO HEAR HER ESTRANGED HUSBAND HAS BEEN KILLED. THEY SAYASE IS NOT SURPRISING. THE CASE IS NOT SURPRISING. THE CASE IS NOT SURPRISING. THE CASE IS NOT SURPRISING.

THE CASE IS NOT SURPRISING. THE CASE IS NOT SURPRISING. THE CASE IS NOT SURPRISING. THE CASE IS NOT SURPRISING. THE CASE IS NOT SURPRISING. THE CASE IS NOT SURPRISING. THE CASE IS NOT SURPRISING. THE CASE IS NOT SURPRISING.

THE CASE IS NOT SURPRISING. THE CASE IS NOT SURPRISING. THE CASE IS NOT SURPRISING. THE CASE IS NOT SURPRISING. THE CASE IS NOT SURPRISING. THE CASE IS NOT SURPRISING. THE CASE IS NOT SURPRISING. THE CASE IS NOT SURPRISING.

THE CASE IS NOT SURPRISING. THE CASE IS NOT SURPRISING. THE CASE IS NOT SURPRISING. THE CASE IS NOT SURPRISING. THE CASE IS NOT SURPRISING. THE CASE IS NOT SURPRISING. THE CASE IS NOT SURPRISING. been following the case pretty closely and you know if you read you know all of the read about all the evidence and the background and so forth I mean it almost seems like an ironclad. Well without a body nothing is ever ironclad. Those are our friends joining us from NBC News 4. That was Ida Siegel. We haven't even touched on the lawyer, Laura Engel, right now in a very, very rare case. Fotis Dulos' lawyer has been charged in connection with Jennifer Dulos' murder. What about it? How does he get tangled up in all this, Laura Engel? His name is Kent Mawinney, and he was his civil attorney back when there was a lot of money problems we've reported on. And in fact, that's what I had my interview with Fotis Dulos about.

There's a gag order in the criminal case, so he was able to speak to me about his original civil case with Gloria Farber. So back at the beginning of that case, Gloria Farber is Jennifer Dulos' mother asking him to repay millions of dollars in what she calls loans, he calls gifts. That's another story. But this guy, Kent Mulwiney, was a friend of his and a civil attorney who was helping him with that case. He has been charged with conspiracy to murder, also arrested the same day. And as of this broadcast, he remains in print. He's in custody right now. He has not been able to make his $2 million bond. He is accused of conspiracy for a couple of reasons, according to the warrant. He was part of the alibi originally that Fotis Dulo said that he was talking with, had a meeting with, had a scheduled meeting with. There was a lot of, you know, they were supposed

to meet up and talk. He was supposed to be on the phone with him. Then when police go to talk to him and ask him more specifically about these meetings, he tells police that he actually had a fall that day, that next morning, has a concussion, doesn't remember what happened the day of the 24th, broke his cell phone. Oh, please, please, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor. He says this is a lawyer speaking. He wants the judge to believe he had a fall and has temporary amnesia. I'm so happy. That's right. And, you know, lawyers are officers of the court. So we're held to a higher standard than even other witnesses.

So to come in and make these representations, which, by the way, are hard to disprove. That's the frustrating thing about some of the evidence that we receive is if you're talking about what somebody was thinking or forgetting, you know, we have to have willful misrepresentations to actually take any action. It's really frustrating even when, Nancy, as you point out, it really sounds common sense that that wouldn't have been the case. But it's one of those things that, as moving forward, we'll see if it doesn't provide him some sort of defense,

which is gonna be important because we're dealing with a case here where the circumstantial and forensic evidence tells the story Jennifer cannot. So this is just one of those where this is one more interesting development, but certainly not going to make a difference to the jury probably in the long run regarding who killed her. Take a listen to our friends at Fox 61. Hi, this is Fortis Dulos from 4 Group. I just wanted to reach out to you when you get a chance. My number is ******. Thank you so much. Bye-bye. Voicemails left for Ken Mawini's estranged wife on May 16th.

Hi ******, it's Fortis Dulos. Hope you're doing well. It's Sunday morning, mid-morning, and I'm just trying to catch space with you to see what the plan is so I can plan my afternoon, evening accordingly. Okay, call me back. Thank you so much. Bye-bye. These messages left just several days before Jennifer Dulos disappeared on May 24th and just days before Mawini's wife met with Dulos at Max's Oyster Bar in West Hartford. Mawini's wife described the meeting in a sworn affidavit as an attempt by Dulos to reconcile the Mawini strained marriage. According to his arrest warrant, Mawini and Fotis Dulos were close friends. But Zenas Zelotes, the divorce attorney representing Mawini's wife, says she thought it was strange Dulos had a sudden vested interest in her relationship with her husband, feeling

uncomfortable that Dulos allegedly kept inviting her back to his Farmington home. This is not a close, friendly friend. This is not a relative. This is not the type of person who you would expect would, you know, reach out and try to mend a marriage. Zalotes questioning in an interview with Fox 61 last week whether his client avoided a fate similar to Jennifer Dulos. As on April 15, 2019, video obtained by Fox 61 shows a suspicious man outside Mawinney's wife's South Windsor home carrying what she says she thought was a gas can and a crowbar. In a sworn affidavit, Mawinney's wife said detectives interviewed a suspect who told them he was asked by Kent Mawinney to repair the garage door. No arrests were made. Our friends at Fox 61,

that was Xenia Maldonado to Fox News national correspondent Laura Engel. That voicemail message we just heard, is it believed, right now not proven, but believed that his lawyer Kent Mawinney was getting photos dealers to kill Mawinney's wife? Well, look, the inference is that he was trying to get her to come to his house or to have some type of a meeting. Now, when you asked about a TRO before, there was a protective order against Mawinney contacting his wife. So what Fotis Dulos was attempting to do, according to these calls, according to the documents, is he was trying to do kind of a go around to get these two to talk. Mawinney, perhaps, had told Fotis, look, I want to get back together with my wife. I can't have

contact with her. Can you help me out? That's what they're going to say. And that's what they're going to say those calls were about. Remember, part of the other part of the new arrest warrants when he was arrested was that he had recently made contact with a gun and hunt club that he once belonged to and helped found years and years ago, but hadn't been a part of or in contact with anybody for the last five to six years. But in the weeks before Jennifer goes missing, which is around the time these voicemails are made, he calls them and asks for access to the grounds of this rural dirt road area where people go pheasant hunting.

And the guys tell them how he can gain access to those grounds. And then a couple of days later, a couple of guys out walking around hunting for pheasants find a six-foot long, three-foot deep, two-foot wide hole in the ground with tarps and unopened bags of lime. So with that, you know, there's no proof that Kent Mawinney went there and dug a hole, but he did ask for access to those grounds just before that hole was found. So tying that all in together with the phone call and trying to get together with the wife, his estranged wife, you know, it led to enough suspicion for police to place him under arrest. Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, joining me out of LA. You know, is there no end to the evil the way that these guys think they can just murder their wives, allegedly,

and that solves their problems? Well, just think about it, Nancy. It follows along the lines of all domestic abuse and all domestic homicide. What happens is that the men in this case come to believe that the wife has betrayed them in some way. It always starts there. Because these men are primitive, they're like babies. They treat their wives as if they were the baby and the wife is the mother. My mommy owes me everything. My mommy should never be separate. Mommy has let me down. She didn't feed me. Mommy, mommy, mommy, give me, give me, give me. And then you put that childlike attitude into an adult homicidal mind, and you have a man who wants to, in an evil, malicious way, punish the wife for having betrayed him. Now, I think Fotis and Mawini became obsessed with their wives.

You know, men who are homicidal and commit domestic violence often begin to stalk their wives after the divorce, right? We know that 76% of all stalking behavior happens while a woman is leaving the relationship. So think of it, you know, Mawini's wife was leaving him. I mean, she had a restraining order and Jennifer wasn't leaving Fotis, but there was this sense of abandonment that many Mawini may have had. So both men became obsessed with conspiring to punish and ultimately to kill their wives. So there's no end. It started with domestic violence in the beginning and the arc ended in a potential attempted homicide and homicide. Okay. You know, I'm not quite sure of everything you just said but i know this he's the one cheating he's the one sleeping around and banner michelle traconis i'm sure you're not the first all right

don't feel special he's the one that's causing the problem in the home so i don't know how you could twist that around dr bethany and make it that she's the one leaving him all i know is they're not coming out and saying it, but there's just, she's dead. They're being prosecuted for murder. And the only thing the defense has going for them right now is right now there is no dead body. We wait as justice unfolds. And I guess Laura Engel, Fox News National Correspondent, is going to be on the front row of that probable cause hearing. And I can't wait. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off.

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