Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Shocking new theory behind Vegas shooter killing spree

Episode Date: February 20, 2018

Months after gunfire rained down on thousands of Las Vegas concert goers, killing 58 people and wounding more than 800 others, many questions remain. Nancy Grace visits the scene in a search for answers. Did Stephen Paddock act alone? What was his motive for the massacre? Grace's guests in this episode including lawyer and shooting survivor Brian Claypool, medical examiner Dr. William Morrone, forensic psychiatrist Dr. Carole Lieberman, and reporter John Lemley. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. We refused to believe it was a shooting until it just kept going and going. And then Chase Haldane left the stage, and then everybody started fleeing, and we started fleeing. We had to hop a gate to get out. It sounded like just a firework, something that you think normally happens in Vegas,

and then it just started going, pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pa. Through investigation and response, we determined there was a shooter on the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay. I had no sense that we were in any danger at all. It felt so safe. We are live in Las Vegas.

I'm here with my buddy Alan Duke, bringing you the very latest in our investigation into the Vegas shooter. Nearly 60 dead, hundreds injured, and still searching for answers. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. It seems here in Vegas as though a pall has fallen over the city. Yes, people are still partying. Yes, the casinos are full. But everywhere you turn, I've learned in the last hours having walked the casino floors, everyone is still talking about and in fear of what happened with the Vegas shooter, Stephen Paddock. As the investigation actually continues to heat up. Joining me, a survivor of the Vegas shooting, Dr. Carol Lieberman, author.

Alan Duke, of course, joining me here in Vegas. Right now, out to investigative reporter John Limley with CrimeOnline.com. John, so much has been made just recently regarding the autopsy on Stephen Paddock, what may have triggered the deadliest mass shooting in modern U.S. history, but the investigation is going even deeper than that as into motive and how he was able to carry it out from a luxury high-rise casino. What have you learned, John Limley? Well, in addition, Nancy, to questions about the state of Paddock's brain,

there's also really from the very beginning been a lot of discussion about the whole timeline of events and exactly how they came down. Some say that there was a six-minute gap between when a security guard in the hotel was shot to when the mass shooting began in earnest. A lot of questions, a lot of questions still nowhere. Okay, wait a minute, John Lemley, John Lemley, hold on. Let me analyze what you just said. A six-minute gap between the first shooting of a hotel security guard before mass murder goes down. With me right now, a survivor of the Vegas shooting, well-known attorney Brian Claypool. Brian, I had no idea that you survived the Vegas shooting. I want to hear why you were in Vegas and what effect does it have on you

that there was basically a six-minute warning before mass murder goes down? Yeah, Nancy, thanks for having me. Before I even tell you why I was there, there's not only a six-minute gap. I've read the entire 88-page preliminary investigative report that was released. A lot of people don't know this, but Jesus Campos was actually on the 32nd floor at 9.46 p.m. Remember, the shooting started at about 10.06. He was there, and he discovered a barricaded door in the stairwell at 32nd floor. Now, you have kids.

I have a little girl. I think my little girl, if she was working as a security guard at the Mandalay Bay, would have had a red alert. Okay, somebody's manipulated this door. It's blocked. People can't get out. If there's a fire, I better call the fire department. Tell me that again, Brian.

Tell me that again. Oh, yeah. I want to understand it. Okay.m 9 46 p.m campos was called to the 32nd floor for what's called an sos alarm it's a heart alarm which means that somebody has left their door open for a prolonged period of time that triggers an alarm within the Mandalay Bay. He was called up to the 32nd floor to check that alarm. This is at 9.46 p.m. He finds the hallway door barricaded.

That means it's been intentionally manipulated. He can't open it. You mean it was a door to a room or a door to an exit? No, the hallway. The hallway. The hallway. Okay, that's just odd. I mean, in any big building, if I saw that, I would immediately think something was sideways.

Okay, go ahead. Exactly. That's my point. So that's the point I'm trying to make. He never calls the fire department, never calls the police department to report that, and then goes and does his little other things, never calls the fire department, never calls the police department to report that, and then goes and does his little other things, and then saunters back up there with an engineer a few minutes before the season starts.

So I just want to make that clear, though, because I represent – I've got over 40 clients now, too. In addition to being a survivor, I'm representing over 40 victims. That's one of the big arguments we're going to be making in this litigation. This timeline extends well beyond six minutes. Anybody with a half a brain in their head, we've been calling for backup at 9.46 p.m. So 9.46, that's a whole new thing. I did not know that someone had intentionally barricaded a high-rise exit door open. To Brian Claypool, Dr. Carol Lieberman, John Limley, joining me, we are live here in Vegas investigating for ourselves. You know, once an investigation

starts, unless you hear the facts from police, it gets crazy with all the theories, the bizarre theories that may be supported by one scintilla effect. So, Brian Claypool, you just were at a survivor's vigil, a meeting, last night, late into the night. And I just can't imagine what everyone is going through. I mean, I had it bad enough with one murder to deal with. Yeah. Being on the scene of a mass murder. Yeah, you can relate to this with what happened to you with yeah that being on the scene of a mass murder yeah you can relate to this with your with what happened to you with your your husband and then another thing you can relate to

is you have kids you know i have an 11 year old little girl right i'm a single parent and i love being a dad and i want to have another child right but imagine if you were at that concert right i was there my birthday was the following tuesday so i decided last minute to go out to ve. I like country, country music. And I was staying by the way, on the 26th floor of the Mandalay Bay. So when I eventually got back to my room, I could send you pictures, I could look up and see paddocks blown out windows right above me. That's how surreal it was. But imagine this being a parent. And then all you're going from relaxing to all of a sudden hearing sounds

that you think initially are fireworks and then what I did is I started looking at Jason Aldean's face I was a little bit to the left of the stage and I was looking at his face because I was a little bit worried because I looked up in the sky and I didn't see any any residue from fireworks and he kind of stuttered when he was singing when that first, the first sounds popped. But then there was a second round of pops and when I saw him put his guitar underneath his,

the cup of his shoulder and ran off the stage, man, I went, it was just complete panic because I knew at that time something horrible was going on. But I will tell you this, if I was, you know, the first round i will tell you this if i was you know

the first round of bullets you know i was trying to duck and trying to lay down um i i fully expected to die there's no question about it because of the pop up i mean you just felt like the bullets were right on top of you you could hear the bullets you could hear them pinging you i just expected to die now when there's a little gap in the shooting, I went from I'm going to die to, man, I am really, I've got to live to see my daughter. But then I said, if I live, I am going to. Okay, wait a minute. Wait a minute. You're just totally, you're killing me right now.

Because the thought of you, Brian, I mean, you and I go way back of you laying there on the ground with bullets ringing out and all you can think about is trying to get back to your daughter I mean yeah but Nancy you know what that triggers it triggers post-shooting guilt in other words in other words because I had a talk with some people at the survivor meeting about this because there was a there was a guy I met there who invited me, a guy named Taylor Winston. Taylor was a hero. If you look him up, he actually was a former Iraqi vet. He was at the shooting. He actually grabbed a truck that had keys in it and started transporting some bodies to the hospital. So when I hear his story, I then kind of spiral because I feel like I didn't do enough, but this gets to me having a daughter.

In other words, I saw people down, excuse me, I didn't feel like I did enough because I was trying to get back to my little girl, whereas other people did more. So I'm dealing psychologically, I'm seeing a therapist, I'm trying to work on that aspect of it too. So that's the demons that I'm dealing with post-shooting. Well, wait a minute. I just want to tell you a story I haven't shared, even with you, Alan. I remember I was out in a housing project. I guess I had been prosecuting.

I had already been named a special prosecutor by that time. So I had to be in it at least five years prosecuting. And I went with my longtime investigator, Ernest, and we went up to find a witness on a porch stoop and there was a screen door and we couldn't see in and we were bamming on the door and all of a sudden a gun comes out pointed right at our face and Ernest, both of us, he grabbed me, we both dived off the porch into the bushes and hit hard. And I still remember that moment.

It was so fast, I hardly even remember the gun barrel. But in that moment, and I'm applying this to you, Brian. You've got to stop. You've got to. I'm so glad you're seeing somebody with survivor's guilt because you were trying to protect the thing that means the most to you, your child. And I also don't like people attacking Aldine for leaving the stage because when you are confronted with death, you act instinctively.

He wasn't standing there thinking, oh, what's going to look good with my PR aid? You know, that's not what it was about. It's about saving your life. So I really resent people attacking the survivors because something kicks in. And I just feel imagining you on the ground with the bullets ringing out. How did you get out of there? And what was it like? What was going through your mind? What was everybody else doing? Well i mean i mean it was like it was pick your poison i mean death death was death was definitely at your doorstep and and and i'm what i remember

is thinking so when the first round of shots was going on like i said i thought i was going to die then i went from i'm going to die to there was a little break in the shooting then i'm like oh my gosh i was feeling my body and i'm like and I was covering the side of my head while the shots were going on. And believe it or not, it was so surreal. I was pulling on people's pants like like some people were still standing. I don't know if they were just in shock. I was trying to pull people to come down. And then and then I'm like, oh, my God, I'm still alive.

And then then I started running and I saw people down. And then I was like running actually in an open area, which was not good. And then what happened is there was a really heroic young Hispanic man. And he said, get out. You're in the line of fire. Get out. Come over here. And then there was this little area like under this little small bleacher

to the left of the stage. And he goes, come in here. This is before the second round of shots right and i go in there and i'll never forget seeing like five or six young lady like young ladies they must have been probably about between 19 and 22 and they were just on their knees crying hysterically like praying like all in a corner like in this little area so i tried to calm them down and say you know i said it's going to be okay just relax you know i didn't say i just be just be calm we're going to get through this i said but we've got to get out of here when this next shooting stops because then i started thinking

about the pulse nightclub shooting you see what i mean it was like it was like okay okay i thought i thought okay okay wow we're protected now but see what people don't understand is we didn't know where the shooting was coming from. So everybody, Monday morning quarterbacks, oh, we're just up in a hotel, what are you worried about? We were thinking it was people right across the fence. I was right next to the fence, contiguous with Las Vegas Boulevard. So while for a moment I thought we were safe inside that room,

I was starting to panic and I prayed. I was like, oh, my God, if they shoot her, it comes in here, we're done, right? We're toast because we've got nowhere to go. So then the next round of shootings going on, we're just – and I think you can relate to this being a mom. I'm a middle-aged man, so I felt guilty that these young girls were going to die, so I instinctively stood in front of them. I'm really proud of this because I didn't feel like I did enough, but I felt like I was protecting them. I stood in front of them and didn't even get behind this barricade I had pulled in front of them. I stood in front of them because I was kind of feeling like, look, if this dude comes in here, then he can shoot me first

because these girls are younger, right? And they haven't lived enough of life. So I stood like right in front near the entrance of the door. And then there was another break in the shooting. And I'll never forget the most surreal moment. I peeked out the door, and I literally am facing the Manilay Bay, looking right at the Manilay Bay. And then there was a really brave police officer across the fence who saw me, and he screams out. I'll never forget these words. Run north now. run north now.

Run north now. North meaning go further away from the front of the venue. And then, of course, I start, like, running north, and then I'm like, what about the girls? Right? So I did a quick 360 and ran back in the room, like, let's go. Come on. Let's go. We've got to get out of here.

And then started going toward the back. But, Nancy, what people don't get is the entire time you're trying to exit, you're waiting to get hit. In other words, then we're waiting to get hit from behind. Like we're waiting. Like we had to wait for people to try to get out. But the whole time you're expecting to get hit in the back because the shots are still going on.

And then eventually kind of had to calm people down to get out of this one little small four foot exit. And I just said to people, if you're going to fight, nobody's going to make it out of here alive. I tried to really just say, we've got to all get in a single line and try to get our way through. And then, you know, praise God made it out. Let me pause and thank our partner making our investigation possible. It's LegalZoom. You know, small business is the big hot topic right now, and that means National Small Business Month at LegalZoom comes at just the right time. Whether you're just starting out or you already have a business, 2018 presents a very unique opportunity. New tax

laws include the biggest changes for business owners in the last 30 years and LegalZoom can help you understand what that means for you. LegalZoom, not a law firm, but has a network of independent tax professionals and lawyers nationwide to answer your questions about taxes and so much more. LegalZoom understands you need to tap into the right resources to run your business. And that's why they're using their 16 years of experience, 16, to provide business owners with the tools to start and run their business the right way. Keep listening over the next few weeks to find out how LegalZoom can help you during National Small Business Month. Don't miss this. Check out LegalZoom.com today and get special savings if you enter code NANCY, N-A-N-C-Y, in the referral box at checkout.

LegalZoom, where life meets legal. LegalZoom.com. Thank you for helping business owners and regular people like us across the country every day and for being our partner here on Sirius XM 132. With me, everybody, is survivor of the Vegas mass shooting, Brian Claypool, our friend. Alan Duke and I are here live in Vegas conducting our own investigation, trying to dig, dig, dig, talking to people into the night, finding out about theories, about logistics, what police aren't telling us. Also with me in addition to survivor Brian Claypool, our colleague and friend, John Limley,

crime online investigative reporter, and Dr. Carol Lieberman. Joining us, the author of a brand new book, Lions and Tigers and Terrorists, Oh My, How to Protect Your Child in a Time of Terror. It's on Amazon and she is a renowned mental health care provider. Dr. Carol Lieberman, thank you so much for being with us. When you're listening to Brian Claypool, as all of this evidence is coming out about the autopsy on the shooter, Paddock, and what we can learn, it's just overwhelming, Dr. Carol. Yes, it really is. And Brian certainly brought it to life. I mean, you could still, I think we all got chills just hearing it.

It was still so raw in his mind. Yes, the latest thing is that there was an autopsy, and people were hoping, I guess some people were hoping, that there would be some clear answer in his brain, like if there was a brain tumor or something like that that could account for this bizarre behavior. Of course, the problem is that there couldn't have been something very serious because he did have such amazing planning. So, I mean,

it could have been something that was getting more and more serious, but still, he had amazing planning. And in fact, they didn't really find anything absolutely clear that would explain what he did. They found that his brain had some damage from high blood pressure and atherosclerosis, and those things were sort of, you know, consonant with his age. It was really not that abnormal. They did find a little something abnormal, which is abnormal deposits in his brain, something called capora amylasea, which, you know, you hear about Alzheimer's disease, and that can be related to that,

but there really wasn't a huge amount of it enough to make that kind of diagnosis. There was, this is also connected sometimes with epilepsy and with multiple sclerosis. But again, there wasn't enough. Well, the way it presented itself, they couldn't really make those kinds of diagnoses. They're just saying that this kind of deposit is sometimes found in those diagnoses. So bottom line, the autopsy revealed nothing as to possible motive. But, you know, to you, Alan Duke, my partner here in Vegas right now, Alan, I mean, the autopsies would really only divulge or reveal an injury or a physical ailment like Dr. Carroll was saying, like a tumor, it can't possibly reveal the thought processes going on in the mind at the time of the shooting, Alan. Yeah, you know,

people were hoping that this autopsy would give them some answers because, you know, for just an average guy, and Paddock seemed like a sort of average guy we want to understand how this could happen did he just snap what caused him to do something like this because there are millions of people who could be like paddock out there and we want to know why but uh but we're not getting answers and and you talk about the crazy theories out there i mean i was just as i was talking to some people here in las vegas uh last night here at hotel, there's some pretty crazy ones out there because they don't think that an average, normal person with a normal brain would do something this horrendous. all sorts of crimes, the worst to the least. And very often a mental defense is a theory of defense for you. But really, when you're the victim and you see people all around you going down in a hail of bullets, does it really matter why he did it?

He did it. They're dead. And you're at a survivor's meeting till midnight. And Alan and I are here in Vegas investigating. And at the end of the day, does it matter why he did it to you? Yeah. Yeah. It's a great question, Nancy. That's a personal decision for everybody, all the 20,000 people that were there. I could tell you what I'm feeling, and that is I agree with you. I care less about motive and more about – let me tell you the second thought I had after I survived through that first round of bullets. I said to myself, I am effing upset about this, and if I live, I'm going to get to the bottom of how this can happen and then do my part to kind of

galvanize my godly purpose in the world. Why am I still here? I'm still here now because I'm representing a lot of victims in this case. We want to try to prevent this from happening again. So I'm focusing more on what did the Mandalay Bay and MCM do wrong in terms of horrible training, having little or no security at all, allowing them to use the freight elevator, not having an alarm in the window when somebody's drilling holes in the window, not arming the security guards, things like that. The barricaded door, not doing anything about that. I'm galvanizing my focus on how could this happen in a civilized society with people that really care about safeguarding people.

To me, the issue is about greed eclipses public safety. And I want to break up that culture of money, money, money at the expense of keeping people safe. So that's my focus. I want to go back to Crime Online investigative reporter John Limley. What else have you learned, John Limley? I mean, Alan has been beating the street and looking. We've been investigating out here and trying to find out what we can, and we've got some very disturbing theories. What do you know, John? What more can you tell us? Nancy, on the subject of possible motive is one thing that emerged. Paddock was a high rolling gambler, but he had been in some declining years as far as raking in the money and so much so that he was beginning to have bouts of depression, and he had been losing, quote, a significant amount of wealth, according to the Clark County Sheriff's Office, and that could have been one of the determining factors. In the end,

we may never know. You mean losing at the tables? Exactly. Okay, let me tell you something. I'm going to have to go to Dr. Carroll on this dr carol lieberman joining me renowned psychiatrist and author of a new book lions tigers and terrorists oh my how to protect your child in a time of terror you know i as many people know from looking at the pictures on instagram and facebook took the children on a an epic rv trip this past spring break with my mother 86 year old who took over half the RV, just so everybody knows. And the four of us lived in the other half, not complaining, but Vegas was in our, on our trip. So we stayed at the hard rock and every morning we'd get up bright and early. We'd

walk through the casino. There would be people, we were going out and about. We went to Hoover Dam, we went into the Grand Canyon, we went everywhere, and we saw David Copperfield, blah, blah. At 7 o'clock in the morning, we would get up and go and get them something to eat. There were people at the slots in gambling, and they looked like zombies. And I would say to the twins, Tw. They look like zombies. And I would say to the twins, Twins, look at these poor people.

They have gambling addictions, and they're losing their rent money right now, and they're smoking and drinking, which are both big no-nos children. Look what's happening to them. And the children, of course, I'm trying to brainwash them as soon as possible. We're like, oh, no, they're smoking.

And so they said, Mommy, have you ever gambled? And I'm like, no. One time I put a quarter in a slot just to know what it felt like. And then they said, well, how did it feel, Mom? I said, well, I immediately regretted losing my quarter. But you go ahead and put your quarter in the slot and see how it feels. So, you know, it's like takes over your mind it's an addiction like alcohol or drugs dr carol yes absolutely and he was doing this for years and years and years

and of course what that did to his mind you know those late nights he used to do a lot at night and you know do be in that atmosphere and yes you, you know, that's very, it affects you physically and psychologically. And, you know, there are a lot of, and when people start to lose, of course, the people who are addicted to it, of course, think, oh, well, I just have to keep doing it. If I just do it a little bit more, then I'm going to win. I'm going to start winning. And that's why they can't stop.

And also it's connected to gambling addiction is connected to sexual dysfunction, like people who feel that they have sexual inadequacies and or really do have sexual inadequacies. And that's one of my theories. I have a bunch of psychological theories for why he did this. And one of them is that he was he was losing and gambling and he was also having erectile dysfunction. And really one of the key things is that his father, this is what I what originally started him off, I believe. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, just stop, stop, stop, stop. Uh, how did erectile dysfunction get in there?

I mean, apparently based on all the Viagra, what's the new one, Alan, that they advertise in all the football games. Okay. That just rolled off your tongue. Not pointing finger.

I mean, apparently a lot of guys have erectile dysfunction and they're not committing mass murder and forcing my, my colleague and friend brian claypool to crawl on his belly from from bullets i mean brian claypool i am not buying brian erectile dysfunction okay because half the neighborhoods in suburban america would be shot up right now that's that's not working for me brian brian are you there yeah i'm here yeah i can't i i'm like alan i can't. I'm like Alan.

I can't speak to that issue because I don't have that problem. That's not what I was asking. Oh, okay. I'm sorry. Okay, everybody, suddenly all the men are defending themselves. I'm talking about this is a motive. Suddenly all the men are like, forget the mass shooting. Let's talk about dysfunction.

No, I'm saying i'm not buying into that that's bs i'm not saying that that is the only thing that was wrong with him and that that would cause him or anybody else to start shooting up 58 people and hundreds more um i'm just trying to put together a psychological profile because that's what i would do as a what i do do as a forensic psychiatrist um i think his main thing is that when he was a little boy, you can always trace these things back, and then you put the things that happened more recently on top of them. His father was on the most wanted list of the FBI at one time.

And when Stephen was a little boy, his father was first arrested. He robbed banks. And when the feds came to arrest his father or the authorities came, his mother lied to him and said that it was not that he was being arrested and said that she lied about where his father was, not that he was in jail, and so on. And then his father escaped from jail and the place where he was arrested again this second time after he had been on the land for quite some time was in vegas now i don't think that that's a coincidence i think that he was trying to

be a better dude than his father and that's where where the function comes in. It's not all by itself. I want to go back to Brian Claypool. I want to hear about when you finally, when you were running. You're crawling along Army Crawl. The shots are ringing out. You try to protect those two young girls. The guy says, run north now.

You start running running everybody's running i can't even imagine what that was like brian yeah it's uh what what what people we talked about this at the survivors group where a lot of our our our the trauma that we're dealing with is is what's called disassociation. I speak for me. I'm still dealing with this. Carol knows probably what I'm talking about. Disassociation, Nancy, means that I'm more disconnected now from the average folk on the street

because I don't feel like they can really relate to what I went through, right? For example, like what we were talking about earlier, which is like I feel comfortable talking to you. You have kids. You kind of get it. What people don't get, for example, is I don't know where the shooter – here's a good point. Shooters. I was just going to say shooters. I thought there were several shooters. We all thought, people I've talked to who were in

there, this was a mass terror attack. We thought terrorists were taking over the city of Las Vegas. Okay, this upsets me, it angers me, because I'm so sick of people minimizing what I went through. Oh, you weren't standing over there where most of the people were killed. I'm not there. Yet a person was killed 30 feet in front of me. I saw it when I read through the investigative report. Oh, well, it was just a guy shooting up in the hotel. Are you freaking kidding me? From thousands around? I mean, every move you made, you thought you were going to get hit, but we thought people were coming over the fence. Imagine your caravan, Nancy, is magnified tenfold. You don't know where this is coming from. And every move you make, your body, to help you have a vivid understanding of what I went through, every move I made I thought could make the difference between life and death. And even when I got out of the venue,

just to finish the story, I end up at the Tropicana, and I'm standing there, and I'm breathing, and I'm like, I think I'm still alive. And all of a sudden, there's an announcement. There's a scream, another shooter. And then we're told there's an active shooter shooting in the Tropicana,

and then had to rush through the Tropicana and saw people's clothing, sweatshirts, shoes strewn everywhere throughout the casino. Okay, so this went on for hours and hours. that we talked about with Survivors Group meeting, which is there could be some credence to possibly there having been another shooting in the Tropicana related to a Saudi prince that was actually in town in Vegas that night who was supposed to be staying at the Four Seasons. That's for another show. Whoa. So, yeah, that's... Okay, hold on.

Wait, wait, wait. Alan, we've been here in Vegas. We're broadcasting live from Vegas right now. And we have been investigating, talking to so many people. It's like drinking from a fire hydrant. Steven Paddock was stone cold sober at the time is what I'm learning. But you have learned a lot about what Brian Claypool is saying, Alan. Right. And Nancy, I was even reluctant to bring this up because it sounds so bizarre. Not another Alan Duke bizarro theory. Well, it's not my theory. Okay.

I'm really reluctant to even repeat it. But since Brian brought it up, this is the kind of thing that's going around. I met with a private investigator yesterday who claims to have information from his sources. He says these are people he called crew who work security for this Saudi prince who owns a number of properties here in Vegas who was staying at the Tropicana. Now, again, I give you a disclaimer on this. I don't know that there's any validity to this, but when I heard Brian Claypool mention this theory, I thought I should bring up what I know, that Stephen Paddock was a diversion on an assassination attempt on the Saudi prince. And you know there's a lot of unrest

or positioning if you will going on in the Saudi kingdom right now for control of the kingdom there have been some arrests and and and some shuffling around among the royal family and there's a huge amount of money at stake right so and and I just listened to this guy and trying to think should we let him on our show or not? Should we bring him in here? And I made the decision that no, because he wasn't able to show me enough evidence to this. But I guess I should bring forward the fact that, yes, there is a private investigator who was telling me all about how this, that Paddock wasn't actual, that Paddock was set up, which I don't believe.

How did he get all the guns up there? Well, this guy was saying, well, the theory is he was a gun runner and he was there to sell the guns. I don't believe that. I think if the police would give more information, more timely information, perhaps it would help to resolve these rumors that are going around. I don't think anything should be off the table. One of the things that I've been kind of saying from the beginning is that we can't rule out that there was a terrorism connection.

The gun power that they found, the ammunition that they found in his car was similar to what terrorists use um the girlfriend who went to the philippines who we wired money to and we know that that is a place where there are terrorist cells and so on there is a number of different things that would make it so that the police shouldn't rule out am i saying that they have i don't know what you've been hearing just now in vegas but um i do not believe we should rule out terrorism i want want to go back to John Limley, investigative reporter, joining us along with the Vegas shooting survivor, our friend Brian Claypool and Dr. Carol Lieberman and Alan Duke. John Limley, what more have you learned? One thing, and this is, well, the people making of it, more than it is. It could be just a typo,

but one thing when the post-mortem examination results were released on October 6th, one line right below Stephen Paddock's name, date of death is October 2nd, 2017, time of death is October 2nd, 2017. Time of death, 1,200 hours. 1,200, not midnight. That is noon on October 2nd. However, this could have been simply a clerical error, but it's one that still has caught people's attention. We've learned, the report's now revealing, the gunman was not under the influence of drugs or other substances when he shot open fire at the crowd during Jason Aldean's event closing set, injuring, now we believe, up to 800 people.

It showed he did have anti-anxiety drugs in his system, but not enough to be under the influence. He was believed at one point to be bipolar. But so far, nothing to suggest that any drug or alcohol influence made him open fire. Back to you, Brian Claypool. You survived. How has it affected your family? Yeah. So here's what I'm going through, Nancy. And I, I, I read a post the other day that really helped me, uh, deal with this trauma. It, it, the post on Facebook was,

or it was in a survivor's group. it said, true courage is complete vulnerability. Think about that for a second. True courage is complete vulnerability. You've gone through this in your life with the tragedy you had, okay? That's how I've chosen to deal with this. That's why I've spoken a lot about not only the shooting, but I'm not afraid to say what I'm going through, okay? And here's what I'm going through,

because I need to be vulnerable for me to get my courage back because I'm a little bit beaten down from this. Here's what I'm experiencing. Catastrophic thoughts. For example, and I know you're going to get sad hearing this. A week ago, I'm driving my little girl back from school. And I'm on the freeway. And I get this thought as I'm driving in the carpool lane, right? Carpool lane is close to the median.

And then you have traffic coming on the other side of the freeway. So a week ago, I'm just driving with my daughter in the backseat. And then a thought comes over me that a car is going to hit me from the side, fishtail me, and push my car into the other lane of traffic. And a truck is going to smash our car. And I'm going to watch my daughter die and be killed. So things are happening in my world. I had a nightmare a week ago about an earthquake. An earthquake was happening and my little girl and I are rushing to get out of the house as the ceiling is falling on us. That's one thing that I'm going through. Catastrophic thoughts.

The other part of it is I'm very much more antisocial now. I don't really like being around people much. I don't really trust people anymore. I don't really feel safe anywhere I go. I kind of always – constantly looking around my shoulders, wherever I'm at. I don't trust anybody. And then I think the biggest – one of the biggest things for me is I feel like part of my soul was killed. I told people this.

I might not have been physically hit by a bullet, but part of my soul died in that shooting. So I'm having struggles with the daily routines of life. In other words, you know me. I focus on my law firm. I take care of my daughter first. I keep my business going, but I got to tell you, the everyday tasks of getting my bills paid, finally getting my car to the car wash the other day, having tons of stuff in my car that I hadn't taken out. Little things in life that you think you knock out one, two, three,

have become really, really big tasks for me because I just don't feel like I have the steam to do it. You know what's interesting, Brian? You know what's interesting, Brian, is that I don't know if this is good news or bad news. To this day, and Keith was murdered a long time ago, I, to this day, I joke about it a lot. And I joke about it with the other parents at school and the teachers. And it's kind of a joke to them. But I will go to the school at all times of the day and drive by. And I make a joke.

I'll call my husband on the phone or I might have Alan on the phone and I'll go, he'll go, where are you? I'm driving through the twin school. I'm just making sure they're not in lockdown, you know, that everything's okay. Ha ha ha. I'm not kidding. And I still have the nightmares. I still, everything, it affects you for the rest of your life now I've gone on I function I mean there have been periods of times that I really couldn't and all I had was prosecuting or my my job but having your daughter it it it's healing because you you have to get normalized you have to for her you know you know brian yeah yeah thank you for that guidance i just wanted to say brian you know that those are classic symptoms of ptsd right yeah no you're right car Carol. I'm treating with a therapist.

I'm seeing her on a weekly basis. Yeah, that's what she's diagnosed. Here's another thing I learned, Brian. I learned that it affects your whole world. Like, you know, after Keith was murdered, I went on, I met David. I couldn't let myself marry or be happy or love anybody. And that's why I was so crazy mean as a prosecutor all those years. I mean, I looked at everybody and they were like, if I let this guy go on a theft, he could get out and shoot somebody. Then it's on me.

Oh, hell no. He's got to go to jail. And everybody, if they came into my courtroom, was just like, woe is you. Because that's where I was coming from. And I couldn't move forward. And you know what? What it ended in is me and Lucy almost dying in childbirth. Because all those years, I couldn't let go and be happy and have love.

I couldn't have love. in my mind it was wrong. You know, I still love Keith and I couldn't let go. And as a result, you know, because of my delay giving birth so late in life, you know what, Lucy almost died there. So it affects every, it seeps into every part of your life. Nancy, thank you for sharing that, by the way. I really thank you for sharing that because you just validated something that I haven't really publicly mentioned this, but I'm going through something similar to what you're going through. I'm still single.

I want to meet a woman and get married. I'd love to have another kid even though it's later in life. But for me, even before the shooting, I had issues. My mom died when I was a really, really little kid, breast cancer. My dad was an alcoholic, never around. I was basically orphaned as a kid and raising myself and my little sister. And so I've never had a feeling of trusting a family foundation. I've always, you know, I ruined my relationship with my daughter's mom.

I should have gotten married. I couldn't trust. I already had trust issues with marriage, right? Trusting this could be a safe place for me. Then the shooting happens. Now it's like, I tried to go on a date a couple weeks ago. I was just so disconnected from the whole thing. I'm like, now I'm feeling like, am I ever going to,

maybe I will never have a family now because I just can't. That's what I thought. That's what I thought. But I'm begging you. I'm begging you. Don't do what I did. That's my message to crime victims all the time. Don't stop your life like I did.

Don't. That's if I had just been able to just move forward and when you hear all these theories and you hear John Limley reporting I mean how does that affect you when you hear all this this news developing Brian yeah well believe it or not it did, that part actually helps me. Being involved in this litigation and helping these victims, you know, I've got a woman who lost a loved one. Her son was killed. She lives in Alaska.

Excuse me. I've got about 15 people that have been physically injured in the shooting, and I've got about 20 people that are suffering from PTSD and I have to tell you Nancy every single client that I represent in the Las Vegas shooting it's an honor and a privilege to be representing them because I feel like I'm going to get answers through representing them in this case and being at the forefront of this case and then that is going to be therapy for me to in other words carry out what my godly purpose is surviving so that is actually fueling me this part hearing all this you know I want you Alan to tell after all the hours we put in out here, what you have learned to Brian Claypool, any of the evidence, any of the theories. I didn't know the Saudi Prince theory in its entirety until you told me.

I'm not reeling anything out. I don't necessarily buy that, but my mind is open. I want to hear every theory, every fact that we know. One of the people I talked to last night said that one of the theories is that Paddock was a gun runner. He had all those guns. I mean, they found many, many high-powered guns. And that he, with others, were selling guns globally. And that was part of why all those guns were up here. But the theory was he was set up and that he was not the shooter. Again, now that we have this autopsy report that is now out, we've got a little bit more keeping in mind. Another person was arrested recently,

involved in providing ammunition to him. But we still have so many unanswered questions. And until we get some answers, and unfortunately, in a case like this, Paddock isn't going to go on trial. So we're not going to have all the discovery that we would normally have. So there probably will be a lot of unanswered questions for many years and a lot of theories out there. And Nancy, among the theories running around that could point to his being involved with someone else is the amount of time he was in Vegas before the shooting. He drove down from his home about 80 miles north on September 14th. He stayed at a couple of different hotels over the course of a week or so. Then on September 25th, Paddock arrives at the Mandalay Bay.

This is quite a number of days before the shooting. He was greeted like royalty because, as we've mentioned before, he was a frequent high-stakes gambler at the hotel's casino, and the hotel so appreciated his business that they had reserved him a complimentary room, room number 32135. Four days later, he checks into the neighboring suite, the room next door, which connects to that first room, and both suites overlook that site of the shooting, Las Vegas Village. He placed a do not disturb sign on the door, organized the room, stockpiled, as Alan mentioned, an arsenal of weapons.

And the day of the shooting, he actually interacted with Mandalay Bay employees more than 10 times during the day, including just in the hour before that. But it was very telling that when he checked into the hotel, Clark County Sheriff's Department employees say that he carried more than 10 suitcases into his hotel suite. Brian Claypool, I want to hear your message to other victims of the Vegas shooter that managed to survive. Thanks, Nancy. My message would be take the time to understand and crystallize why you survived. That's what's getting me through this. I've gone from why me, why am I alive, to what am I going to do for the rest of my life to make a difference. Now I'm on the impact part of my life. So I would encourage survivors amid managing their trauma, like Carol said, the PTSD that everybody's going to have who is there, try to figure out why it is you have these precious remaining years left on this planet and make a difference and impact people in this country in any way you can.

That's my best message. Nancy Grace and Alan Duke, live in Vegas, with Crime Stories. Signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.