Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Shocking photo of woman bound in bathtub emerges as body of Jamie Haggard found by road crew collecting garbage

Episode Date: November 27, 2019

After beautiful mom Jamie Haggard dies, police charge her own brother, David Haggard, with her murder. Police find a photo of Jamie tied up in a bathtub, taken before her brother allegedly cut her body up into pieces.Joining Nancy Grace to discuss the case: Ashley Willcott : Trial Attorney, Judge, and Anchor at Court TV James Shelnutt - 27 years Atlanta Metro area Major Case Detective, Retired Swat Officer Dr. Tim Gallagher: Medical Examiner for the State of Florida Dr. DeBoer: Licensed NY and PA Psychologist, Corrections Psychology Intervention, & Founder of Visionistas By Design Dave Mack: CrimeOnline Investigative Reporter  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Where is Jamie Haggard? Just 27 years old. This mom would never leave her children. The family at this point still holding on to hope as the months pass by. After following countless leads, investigators keep coming back to where she first goes missing. Where is Jamie? What went wrong? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Well, they say this is really out of character for her. Jamie Haggard is a mother to twin daughters and is extremely close to her family, we're told. No one, though, has heard from her since June, and they say they are worried sick.

This is Jamie's Facebook page. Scrolling through old pictures. When we were kids, all of us cousins were super close. Alicia Falling remembers the good times with her cousin, 27-year-old Jamie Haggard. PICTURES. WE WERE KIDS. ALL OF US COUSINS WERE SUPER CLOSE. ALICIA FALLING REMEMBERS THE GOOD TIMES WITH HER COUSIN, 27-YEAR-OLD JAMIE HAGGARD. BUT SHE ALSO CAN'T HIDE HER CONCERN.

IT JUST SEEMS VERY UNUSUAL THAT NOBODY HAS HEARD FROM HER FOR SO LONG. IT'S NOT LIKE HER AT ALL. HAGGARD'S LAST CONTACT WAS WITH FAMILY IN KENMORE AROUND JUNE 8TH. KING COUNTY SHERIFF'S

INVESTIGATORS ARE NOW LOOKING INTO HER DISAPPEARANCE AND CALLING IT SUSPICIOUS. WE THINK IT'S SUSPICIOUS FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS. FIRST, HER FAMILY SAYS THAT SHEED ABOUT THEIR FAMILY'S FAMILY. THE FAMILY IS CONCERNED ABOUT THEIR FAMILY'S FAMILY. THE FAMILY IS CONCERNED ABOUT THEIR FAMILY'S FAMILY.

THE FAMILY WAS IN PENNMORE AROUND JUNE 8. THE SHERIFF'S INVESTIGATORS ARE LOOKING INTO HER DISAPPEARANCE AND CALLING IT SUSPICIOUS. WE THINK IT'S SUSPICIOUS FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS. FIRST, HER FAMILY SAYS THAT SHE

USUALLY CONTACTS HER MOM AT LEAST EVERY OTHER DAY AND THEY HAVE A CONVERSATION. ADDITIONALLY, SHE HASN'T USED HER CELL PHONE SINCE SHE'S BEEN REPORTED MISSING. AS EACH DAY PASSES, FAMILY IS GROWING MORE

CONCERNED. I FEAR THE MOST THAT SOMEB CASE IS NOW TURNING PURPLE. AS THE SHERIFF'S OFFICE PASSES, FAMILY IS GROWING MORE CONCERNED. I FEAR THE MOST THAT SOMEBODY HURT HER. WHILE THEY FEAR THE

WORST, THEY'RE STILL HOPING FOR THE BEST. I REALLY HOPE THAT WITH ALL THIS, HOPEFULLY WE'LL GET A PHONE CALL FROM HER SAYING, HEY, I'M FINE. NOW WE ASKED THE SHERIFF'S OFFICE WHY IT'S TAKEN

A MONTH TO GET THIS MISSING PERSON'S CASE OUT TO THE PUBLIC AND THEY TELL US THEY HAD BEEN SERVING SEARCH WARRANTS ON HER person's case out to the public and they tell us they had been serving search warrants on her phones and credit cards and were hoping that in the meantime she would surface but without any leads they are now turning to the public for help. That hope you hear in the family's voice never seems to go away and that hope is heartbreaking. They are clinging to a shred of evidence, a shred of hope, believing that Jamie may come home. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. You were just hearing our friend at Fox, Janet Kim, speaking. Where is Jamie Haggard? Just 27 years old. This mom would never leave her children. Never, never, never. Just 27 years old when she goes missing. Massive searches for Jamie. Joining me, an all-star panel.

Judge and trial lawyer Ashley Wilcott. Anchor at Court TV. You can find her at AshleyWilcott.com. James Shelnut, 27 years on major case, SWAT officer, retired, the medical examiner for the state of Florida. Joining us, Dr. Tim Gallagher. And joining us today, psychologist in New York and Pennsylvania, founder of Visionistas by Design at DrLizLyz.com.

Dr. Liz DeBoer. Right now to CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter Dave Mack. Dave, it's hard for me to believe it took this long to get the search going for Jamie Haggard. Let's just start at the beginning. She's 27 years old. She's got children. Tell me the last time that she was seen. Let's try to

create a timeline of sorts. It was on June 8th, Nancy, when she was actually seen or heard from family or friends. And the reason, you know, you mentioned, why did it take so long? Well, because it was out of the ordinary, yet she did have a constant contact with her mother every other day. And so they were just trying to get a handle on things. And as police were involved in trying to find where she went, the first thing they did was they wanted to find her cell phone records because that was what she used to contact folks. She used it for her online stuff. Okay, hold on.

Right there, right there, Dave Mack, in this world that we live in with social media paramount I mean first thing John David does when he wakes up my son who's just turned 12 he grabs his phone and I've snuck into the bathroom while he's getting ready to see what he's doing he's watching TikToks he's watching silly kid news and looking at memes and i've spied on him enough to know what he's doing in there but i mean come on he's 12 and he's in there getting dressed i've laid his clothes out brushing his teeth and he's got that going in the background lucy on the other hand really doesn't give a fig she'll leave her phone alone for days on end and even forget where it is but social media is paramount in so many lives to james shellnut

metro major case swat officer james question that's where you start in this day and age back long time ago you'd start with the witness you'd have to trace them back to their job or or getting gasoline now you look at social media. How can you track that forensically? Well, you know, Nancy, social media and online electronic footprint is today's new fingerprint. And you're right. It used to start with a witness. And now the best witness in the case is often the electronic footprint. You know, there's a lot of searches, a lot of softwares that you can data mine and search for a person's presence online, and that would be the first place to start. And if you see that someone's got a history of being online regularly

and then all of a sudden their electronic footprint disappears, that's certainly going to give rise to concern. I agree with you, James. And not only that, to Ashley Wilcott, you can see her at Court TV. Ashley, not only that, like I said, even at 12, they're all over it. Like your little girl. It runs their life, it seems like. So it's hard for me to believe that this young girl, Jamie Hager,

just 27 years old with children, was not on her cell texting, getting emails, looking at videos, making videos. What about it, Ashley? I would start there too. Well, I would also, and I have to say this, I think that we see time and time again covering these live trials that I cover. Guess what? The first indication that something's wrong is when someone is not heard from in terms of social media. They're no longer posting. They're no longer texting. They're no longer reaching out. Unfortunately, that often means something has happened to change their daily routine. Guys, we are on the search to find the truth about what happened with Jamie Hager,

just 27 years old, beautiful young girl. If you want to take a look, what happened with Jamie Haggard, just 27 years old. Beautiful young girl. If you want to take a look, she's not a girl. She's 27 years old. Back to you, Dave Mack. Guys, if you want to see Jamie Haggard, go to crimeonline.com for this and all other breaking crime and justice news. Dave Mack, pick up where you were. I'm sorry. We got carried away with social media and we were talking about posting email texting but cell phones are perfect for triangulation the process of finding through your cell phone where you were last when your phone was last working when you last had it on and you don't have to be sending a text or getting a phone call through triangulation. What that means is as you drive along, your cell phone, whether you're on it or not, is pinging, is making electronic Wi-Fi contact with cell towers. Yes, those horrible things that are fashioned to look like trees, but you can tell they're cell towers.

Those things. As a matter of fact, I didn't know this, but my little church makes part of its money every year because they've allowed a cell apparatus in the steeple. Yes, I did not know that. And if the Lord doesn't mind, neither do I. But what I'm saying is, as you're driving along, you may not even realize you're passing a cell tower. But your phone, if your phone is on, is pinging. And that can be, quote, triangulated. In other words, figured out where you were last until your phone goes dead or it's disabled or turned off where they can find that. Okay, Dave Mack, back to you. We got sidetracked with me talking about social media and triangulation as it relates to Jamie Haggard's whereabouts. Pick it up where you left off.

All right. Well, I'm glad you mentioned all that, Nancy, because here's the deal. The phone was left at the house. And so what they were trying to do, the police were trying to uncover who she was talking to up until the moment that she went missing. And that's why they were getting the search warrants for those things, because they knew where the phone was physically. They needed to know who she was talking to and whether there was any type of thing going on there on her phone. That's why it was a couple of weeks before they went full on searching for her. She was living with her half-brother, too. And he had told police and friends that, you know, he saw her leaving the house that morning. So the day she disappears, vanishes, is not seen again, the brother sees her that morning.

They're living together in the same home. And he sees her. Nothing is amiss. So that's where we would start, officially, the timeline. Take a listen to our friends at K.I.R.O. 7. This is Allison Grande. Jamie would call her mom every other day. I mean, that's kind of what she did. And so and she like I said, she had two small children. So for her to just disappear is it's highly suspicious for her not to have any activity on her cell phone, her credit cards,

her bank accounts. That is just out of what she would normally do. And investigators are not revealing what it is that led them back to this house. But Haggard lived in the home with her brother and a boyfriend. She disappeared on June 8th, but was reported missing on the 17th. She hasn't used any of her credit cards, bank cards, cell phone. They do believe the mother of those young twins is dead. Back here live, I want to show you what's happening now. Detectives here from King County's major crime unit are talking right outside the home as they take away the yellow police tape, kind of figuring out what they're going to do next. They really had hoped that they would be able to bring some answers to the Haggard family today. That didn't happen here, but they hope someone might see this and that someone might have some information that can help them find

Jamie Haggerty. Now detectives are looking for any other DNA evidence, DNA that doesn't belong to Jamie. They're also asking you for tips, anything suspicious you might have seen, a car or a suitcase. If you think back to two years ago now and you remember, that was a little strange. That's the type of tip we need. We don't know at this time what, if any, additional evidence investigators found in this field, but I do know they'll be back out here searching again this weekend with the K-9 team. crime stories with nancy grace well they say this is a character for her jamie hager is a mother to twin daughters and is extremely close to her family we're told no one though has heard from her since june and they say THEIR FAMILY. THEY ARE HAPPY TO HAVE HER BACK. SHE IS A FAMILY OF TWO

TWIN DAUGHTERS AND IS EXTREMELY CLOSE TO HER FAMILY, WE ARE TOLD. NO ONE, THOUGH, HAS HEARD FROM HER SINCE JUNE AND THEY SAY THEY ARE WORRIED SICK. THIS IS JAMIE'S FACEBOOK PAGE. SCROLLING THROUGH OLD

PICTURES. WE WERE KIDS. ALL OF US COUSINS WERE SUPER CLOSE. ALICIA FALLING REMEMBERS THE GOOD TIMES WITH HER COUSIN, 27-YEAR-OLD JAMIE HAGGARD. SHE ALSO CAN'T HIDE HER CONCERN. It just seems very unusual that nobody has heard from her for so long.

It's not like her at all. HAGGARD'S LAST CONTACT WAS WITH FAMILY IN KENMORE AROUND JUNE 8TH. KING COUNTY SHERIFF'S INVESTIGATORS ARE NOW LOOKING INTO HER DISAPPEARANCE AND CALLING IT SUSPICIOUS. We think it's suspicious for a number of reasons. First, her family says that she usually contacts her mom at least every other day and they have a conversation. Additionally, she hasn't used her cell phone since she's been reported missing. As each day passes,

family is growing more concerned. I fear the most that somebody hurt her. While they fear the worst, they're still hoping for the best. I really hope that with all this, hopefully we'll get a phone call from her saying, hey, I'm fine. Now we asked the sheriff's office why it's taken a month to get this missing person's case out to the public. And they tell us they had been serving search warrants on her phones and credit cards. And we're hoping that in the meantime, she would surface. But without any leads, they are now turning to the public for help. Jamie Hager, 27 years old, seemingly vanishes into thin air. Two children, 27 years old. Think for a moment what you were doing at age 27. Straight out to

Dr. Liz DeBoer, psychologist in New York and Pennsylvania, founder of Visionistas by Design. And you can find her at drlizlyz.com. Dr. DeBoer, thank you for being with us. The family at this point still holding on to hope as the months pass by. And then they see things like, for instance, the Jamie Closs case, where Jamie Closs goes missing. She's held for a period of time and then she is found alive. Or so many other similar cases like that that must give them hope that they will find jamie and bring her home it can also do a disservice if i were in their shoes i'd rather have hope dr liz do people hold on to hope even in the face of facts that suggest otherwise? Yeah, so absolutely hope is one of the most powerful and commonly used things for people in this kind of experience and circumstance when all that they

want is to find their loved one safe and alive. Hope and faith are the things that keep people going from day to day. And even when things are pointing in the opposite direction, you know, hope is hope is strong and a community together, hoping together really does bring the power of that hope and faith together. It's almost, and I'm sure you've seen this, James Shelnut, 27 years, major case detective, SWAT officer, now lawyer, where people, in the face of overwhelming evidence their loved one is dead, they keep hoping. And I remember after my fiance was murdered, every morning when I would wake up, I would think everything was normal. And then it would take about five or ten seconds for me to remember that Keith had been murdered and that went on literally for years and James I remember looking at my mom and holding her by each shoulder and saying mother is Keith dead and that that wasn't a dream. That was in waking hours.

It's like your mind can't or won't accept what's happening. Yeah, you know, that's a tough thing for the victims. It's a tough thing for the investigators. Nowhere nearly as tough on them as it is for the family. But, you know, the not knowing part is the worst part. You know, but unfortunately, in situations like this, you've let her come to know because you get a knock on the door from detectives to give you the news. And y'all have had to make that notification before. It's a very tough thing to do as a law enforcement officer or in any position.

And I have found that there's a lot of grief. There's a lot of suffering. But at the end of the day, there is some relief in just knowing what happened. And not only that, you've got to look at the family, because we all know when someone meets foul play, that a loved one, typically a partner, spouse, an ex, a boyfriend, is responsible for their demise. That goes for the family too. So when you tell them you think the person is dead, you not only have your heart breaking for them, but you got to watch them. You've got to watch their reaction. Do they do or say anything you find inconsistent?

Because maybe you're looking at a killer, right? So that's a hard thing to keep in mind for normal people that would never dream of hurting a hair on the head of someone they love. So Dave Mack, she's missing two children. How old are the children at the time she goes missing? They're eight and a half. Oh, Lord in heaven. Ashley, how much do your children need you at eight years old for Pete's sake? Yeah. And that's the other red flag in this case. There are a lot of them, but anytime a mother or a caretaker or a parent, who's the other red flag in this case. There are a lot of them. But any time a mother or a caretaker or a parent who's the one actually in the home parenting for the children disappears without a word, there's cause for concern. Because not only do these children need you at that age, no mother that I know personally would do anything to not, let me rephrase that, Nancy, no parent I know, no mother would let

anything get in the way of them parenting those kids and loving them every single day. So Dave Mack, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, tell me about the search. First of all, who reports her missing? Her father reported her missing. His name is Lee Haggard. He actually, when they didn't have any contact with her for a couple of days, he knew that was just not the norm. So he called the police and said, my daughter's missing. Go talk to my son and see what you can find out. Because he was the last one to see her. Dave, remember, I'm just a JD, okay?

I got a law license. I don't have a DDS. I'm not a dentist. I can't pull teeth unless you want me to. All right. And I will, but I need to hear a full answer about, about what happened with Jamie. So the dad is the one that reports her missing. Okay. Not the father of the children, not the boyfriend. Now let me understand this living arrangement, Dave Mack. She's living with her stepbrother and her boyfriend.

Is that right? Do I have that correct? You know, Nancy, there are multiple reports about the people living in that home. Okay, it was a rented home, and Jamie was living with her half-brother in that home. Hey, hey, hey, hey. There's nothing wrong with a rented home. I don't like the way you said that, okay? Like, they're homeless.

I've rented rented home. I don't like the way you said that. Okay. Like I'm, they're homeless. I've rented a home. What everybody can't live in a mansion with a long driveway is with oak trees like you, Dave Mack. All right. She's got a basically single mom with two children living with a boyfriend and a brother. Yes, it's rented. Think they can make a mortgage payment or qualify for a loan? No. As a matter of fact, I think like, if anybody knows the answer to this, jump in. I bet Ashley Wilcott's going to pipe up. How many millennials live with their parents? Nobody can afford to put a down payment on a house. I just have to say that it's amazing to me how many millennials do live at home and I represent I used to represent D-Fax and so many

of those young case managers all would live at home so they could afford to actually do what they wanted to do for a living and still have a place to live. Okay please don't start with me about D-Fax okay because you know what I think about them. Okay Dave Mack jump in what were you saying?, here was the reason I pointed out the rental agreement, because they did rent the home. Because you own your home and you're showing off? Actually, the owner of the home had a friend of his living with them as a roommate slash watching over the home. David had his girlfriend that was staying in the home, and that was a source of a lot of friction inside that home. Okay, you know what? I don't even know what you just said.

Dave Mack, I would have to cross-examine my own witness if you were on the stand. First of all, as I tell the twins, and they just turned 12, Dave Mack, maybe you can learn from them, no offense. Use names. Not he, she, they. Who did what? And give them names dave mac if it's landlord owner's friend say owner's friend i don't even know what you're saying let's get our facts straight what okay david i don't like your tone now your tone your tone david haggard and his girlfriend wendy lived in the the home with David's half-sister, Jamie Haggard. The owner of the home, the landlord, had a friend of his live with them in the home.

And I can't, his name is escaping me right now. Okay, owner friend. Yes, the owner's friend was living in that home with them. Okay, let me understand. So you've got the owner's friend was living in that home with them okay let me understand so you've got the owner's friend and his girlfriend right and you've got the stepbrother and his girlfriend have i added in one girlfriend to me yeah you added one extra but you've got let me understand let me get it straight i gotta know everybody living in that home i've got the owner's friend i've got the stepbrother, David Haggard, and his

girlfriend. And I've got Jamie Haggard. Is her boyfriend living there? Different reports tell us that he was and he wasn't. Okay, so maybe. That's one word. Maybe. On and off. He's probably just like a sleepover weekend boyfriend. Okay, so here we go. We've got the owner friend. We've got the stepbrother, David Haggard, and his girlfriend. We've got Jamie Haggard. And then you have the eight-year-old twins in and out. So that is a house full. And you mean to tell me nobody knows what happened? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Tonight, King County detectives are continuing to look for a missing Kenmore mother of two.

27-year-old Jamie Hager disappeared around June 8th, and they are calling it suspicious. So this week, they searched in and all around Arlington after getting several tips that she was spotted there. But detectives say it wasn't her, so they are asking everyone to be on the lookout. And while it's great that a lot of people have been sharing her photos on Facebook, detectives are asking you to call 911 or Crimestoppers if you have any real information. They're spending a whole lot of time tracking down rumors instead of dealing with actual facts and people they can interview. Now, last Friday, deputies searched her property, but they came up empty, even using a backhoe to sift through the piles of trash in the backyard of the home and a recently filled-in hole as well.

Detectives say no remains were found. Her cousin is extremely worried something happened to Jamie. There's been no activity on her cell phone and bank accounts. It just seems very unusual that nobody has heard from her for so long. It's not like her at all. I fear the most that somebody, somebody heard her. You can hear the pain in Jamie's cousin Alicia Falling's voice. The search going on for 27-year-old Jamie Haggard. You're hearing our friend David Rose at Q13 Fox News. Now take a listen to our friends at KRO7. This is Allison Grande. When he heard detectives were back at the house today, he was

hopeful he'd get answers. To have a child missing is, there's no closure. It's an open wound. It always will be. Major crimes investigators did not recover any new evidence today. This is very IT'S AN OPEN WOUND. IT ALWAYS WILL BE. MAJOR CRIMES INVESTIGATORS DID NOT RECOVER ANY NEW EVIDENCE TODAY. THIS IS VERY SUSPICIOUS CIRCUMSTANCES THAT SURROUNDED HER DISAPPEARANCE, AND WE BELIEVE SOMEBODY OUT THERE KNOWS. AND LEE HAGGARD HAS A PROMISE FOR HIS DAUGHTER. I'M NOT QUITTING, JAMIE. I'M NEVER GOING TO QUIT. AND DETECTIVES TELL US THEY'RE NOT QUITTING EITHER. AT THIS POINT, THEY'RE NOT CALLING IT A HOMICIDE. IT IS A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION. BUT a criminal investigation. But investigators, after being here today, they didn't find any remains.

They say they need help from the public to let them know where to search for Haggard next. So the search goes straight back to the home. Welcome back, everybody. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. 27-year-old Jamie Haggard, the mother of two 8-year-old twin girls, goes missing. Where is Jamie? What went wrong? After following countless leads, investigators keep coming back to where she first goes missing. James Shelnut with me, 27 years major case detective, SWAT officer, now lawyer. James Shelnut, why do they keep coming back to the same location,

where it all started, where she was last seen? Is that because they've reached a stumbling block and they keep going back to square one? I don't know. I don't know the logical reason that she would go back is that was the last known place that she was seen. You definitely want to search that. And, you know, you're going

to ask for consent to search that property. If you believe that there's a crime to speak of, you certainly want to get a search warrant to search that property. But you're going to go back and you're going to look for any evidence of who she had been talking with, who her inner circle was, and whether or not there's any evidence as to what occurred, what happened. Take a listen to our friends at K KIR07. This is Graham Johnson. So far, they have not told us that they found anything substantial. Just after 5 o'clock, we saw them doing some digging here in the front yard. You can see some evidence of that.

Then a short time ago, they returned that excavator to the backyard. The search has been focused on looking for human remains. Within the last hour, a truck hauled off a pickup for evidence and an excavator began digging in the front yard of this Kenmore home, pulling up landscape fabric slowly so detectives can look for clues. 27-year-old Jamie Haggard lived here a few months. King County investigators say she was last seen at the home June 8th. Relatives say a few days later, her brother, also living here, ALSO LIVING HERE, CAME TO ASK HIS FATHER AND

STEPMOTHER IF THEY'D SEEN JAMIE. I SAID WHY ARE YOU ASKING IF SHE'S HERE, YOU LIVE WITH HER. HE GOES WELL SHE WALKED AWAY FROM THE HOUSE FIVE DAYS AGO. I GO WALKED AWAY FROM THE HOUSE. BLOCKING HIS CAR IN THE DRIVEWAY.

SO THAT'S WHEN WE STARTED GETTING CONCERNED. LEE HAGER LOOKED FOR HIS DAUGHTER FOR A COUPLE OF DAYS, THEN REPORTED HER MISSING. Wangian's car in the driveway. And so that's when we started getting concerned. Lee Haggard looked for his daughter for a couple of days, then reported her missing June 17th. He says it's unlike Jamie not to contact her parents or her twin daughters who live with their father. She worshipped the ground they walk on, and for her to be away from them, something's wrong. Well, not only is something wrong, to Dr. Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner for the state of Florida, not only are you the medical examiner, but medical examiners, pathologists, look at surrounding evidence as they analyze a case. For instance, I remember an arson case and the wife of a millionaire in Atlanta died of smoke inhalation. She was also covered in bruises, which didn't make sense,

does it? And the medical examiner looked not only at the bruises and the smoke inhalation, but the fact that her millionaire husband the week before the fire took out all of his suits and dress clothes and family photos of his family not hers and squirreled it all away at local dry cleaners and his office warehouse now the morning of the fire he called the weather hotline to see if it was going to rain that day and call the insurance company to find out if he could get replacement furniture covered in case there was a fire. And guess what?

48 hours later, bam, there's a fire. So the medical examiner looked at all that evidence and said, this is a homicide. So Dr. Tim Gallagher, when do you look at extrinsic evidence, extrinsic outside the body itself? Well, thanks for having me on the show again, Nancy. It's always been a pleasure. You're right, Nancy. When a medical examiner such as myself comes to a scene, we go through everything.

Every drawer, we look under every mattress, we pick up carpet, we take out the walls. Basically, don't ever invite me over to your house. Whoa, you take out the walls? That just kind of chipped off your tongue. Let's talk about what you just said, okay? Okay, now remember, you don't have a jury. You've got one, two, three, four, five experts ready to pounce. When you say, you just kind of like threw it out there, they take apart the walls.

Explain why that is necessary. Well, on this couple of cases, we've there. They take apart the walls. Explain why that is necessary. Well, on this couple of cases, we've had bloody handprints on the walls. We've had bloody footprints on the tile. And that we actually remove the tile and take that to the CSI lab for a very detailed examination. So nothing is safe when I come to your your house that's why i really never get invited anywhere but neither do i nobody wants to talk about murder at dinner i i yes dr tim gallagher a lot of people don't know this and i think it's very significant um i remember another case where a beautiful young woman a mother of a little boy, had committed suicide.

Now, catch this. She committed suicide in her bed naked by shooting herself in the head. Okay, we all know that's wrong on so many levels because women typically don't shoot themselves in the head or around the face or shoot themselves at all, generally speaking, as a mode of suicide, nor do they arrange it so they will be found butt naked. That practically never happens. So I knew at the get-go something was way wrong.

It was the medical examiner's team that was going back to the home, and I met up with them there. That's how I, you know, just walked in because they were there. Long story short, a lot of people don't know that the medical examiner in many jurisdictions has an investigative team, and they go investigate just like homicide or police go investigate. And I remember using some of their measurements that the medical examiner's

office had taken as to how far the casings were from the bed what position this the shooter would be in at the time of the shooting for the casings to land where they landed and they had even performed experiments because there was carpet on the floor so we were there dropping shell casings and seeing where they bounced. Medical examiners go investigate. It doesn't start when the body rolls into the morgue. I love this profession, Nancy. I would not do anything else. That is one of the major joys that I have in being a medical examiner is getting everything that I need to find the answer, to find the truth and to get closure for the family. Yes, I've crawled under beds. I've gone into the weirdest places you can imagine, down into holes and all manner of hoarders' homes, et cetera. And I would not do anything else.

To get the answers that I need, there's nothing that can stop me. You know, it's a funny thing. Once you are in the criminal law business, like Gallagher is talking, everything else seems dry and boring. I mean, when I have to go to some event or get-together or school event, if you're not talking about murder, I am not interested. I am bored out of my skull. I can say this, though, to Ashley Wilcott,

a judge and trial lawyer. You can see her on court TV. Ashley, there's a big difference in returning back to Jamie Haggard's home to ask questions and digging out the yard with a backhoe. Yeah. You think, I mean, there is a huge difference. And one of the things that fascinates me in this case is the deliberate steps taken, but also how long it took to take each of these steps and decide to dig it up with a backhoe. I think that as is typical, law enforcement had a lot of information that they couldn't disclose. They didn't want to interfere with their own investigation. They couldn't tell the media. They couldn't tell their friends. They couldn't tell the family. but i think that they had a lot of information that were building blocks to say we now have a need to dig up that backyard

crime stories with nancy grace CRIME STORIES WITH NANCY GRACE. King County detectives have worked the case quietly for a month. Today, they arrived with search warrants and an excavator after learning that a backyard hole had been filled in within the last month since Jamie disappeared. The sheriff's office considers this a suspicious missing case. We, over the last month, have not found any cell phone activity, bank activity. And again, investigators have not told us yet if they found anything substantial here. Jamie Haggard was trained as a medical assistant over Lake Medical Center. Tells me she worked there a little over a year, leaving in June 2015. If you have any information about where she might be, call the King County Sheriff's Office. You are hearing our friend, that's Graham Johnson at KIR07,

and you're hearing Sergeant B.J. Myers from the Sheriff's Office. Well, in the month following Jamie Haggard's disappearance, all roads seemed to lead to nowhere. And believe it or not, a year passed. Listen. The first time they dug up the yard was last summer. There was a pond in the back they said had been filled in with dirt. Investigators won't tell us what brought them back here today, but they tell us they do believe Haggard is dead and they had hoped her remains

were here. Detectives used a backhoe to search the yard of the home where 27-year-old Jamie Haggard was living when she disappeared. From Chopper 7, you could see they were digging several holes looking for Haggard's remains. We got a tip that we needed to dig at a new area in a new spot of this property. Haggard is the mother of twin little girls. She was last seen June 8th, reported missing by her dad June 17th. I think about her all the time. I worry about her. I always have. I've always worried about her. We met Lee Haggard at his neighborhood pub at his table to talk about his little girl. It's been a year and I'm hoping if somebody's got to know something. Investigators met with

Lee Haggard a few weeks ago to tell him they believe Jamie is dead. They took DNA swabs from both parents, which would help them identify her remains. That was hard. Hardest thing I've ever heard. Oh, my stars, can you even imagine giving DNA to help find your daughter? That only means one thing, that cops think she's dead. I want you to take a listen now to KIR07's Allison Grande. And this is how fast they're working here. They had one more spot they wanted to check in the yard and they just finished that up just in the last minute or so and brought the backhoe here around the side

of the home. This is where Jamie Haggard used to live. This is where she was reported missing from and they were doing all they can to find her remains, but so far, the search here today has come up empty. Now, we want to show you a picture of Jamie. This is who we're talking about, 27-year-old Jamie Haggard. She was the mother of twin girls and has been missing for just about a year. From Chopper 7, you can see how detectives were working in the backyard of this house, trying to dig through through using this backhoe to try to see if they could find the young woman's remains. They spent all morning looking. They did search this same yard last summer. They searched in a pond area that had been filled in with dirt, and they did not find her there.

They say they got a new information, a new lead that brought them back to this house this morning so they could search a different part of that backyard detectives tell us haggard is presumed dead to dr liz deborah psychologist in new york and pennsylvania the founder of visionistas by design and you can find her at dr liz lyz.com dr deborah even when cops are coming and taking dna swabs they're called buckle swabs from the mouth you just get like um it looks like a q-tip and slide it along the inside of the mouth from the parents the dad still is thinking he can bring her home alive now that's what i talk about clinging to hope even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Dr. Liz, why? What about the human makes your psyche cling to the hope that the unthinkable could be true, could be false?

Yeah, that's a great question. Our brain tends to protect us from that which we fear the most. So we hear about this very thing of denial, really just knowing perhaps this could be the truth and with every fiber of your being hoping that it's not. And so sometimes we think of that as a conscious process of being able to hear the information, hear the evidence, and decide what we believe to be true. But our brains can also protect us by using the mechanism in an unconscious way of really just being able to deny it. And when you are denying of the truth, on some level, you're still able to function as if, okay, this isn't true, this isn't true. So it's unclear whether it's actually a conscious hope or a function of that kind of,

that first stage of really grieving is the denial phase. Take a listen to the stepmother, Patty Haggard, speaking to our friend Rob Munoz. Detectives also told us there are no suspects in custody over Haggard's disappearance, but they were able to gather valuable context clues by talking to neighbors. Her father told us this afternoon Haggard had some financial troubles recently, but it's how her brother reported her missing that has them especially concerned. I said, why are you asking if she's here? You live with her. HER BROTHER REPORTED HER MISSING THAT HAS THEM ESPECIALLY CONCERNED. I SAID WHY ARE YOU ASKING IF SHE'S HERE YOU LIVE WITH HER.

HE GOES WELL SHE WALKED AWAY FROM THE HOUSE FIVE DAYS AGO. I GO WALKED AWAY FROM THE HOUSE. BLOCKING, CAR, IN THE DRIVEWAY. SO THAT'S WHEN WE STARTED GETTING CONCERNED. EVEN THOUGH THEY'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR A MONTH, HER

FAMILY FEELS NO CLOSER TO FINDING HER. I'M MISSING MY DAUGHTER. I JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO HER. AND I WANT HER TO BE WITH ME. getting concerned. Even though they've been looking for a month, her family feels no closer to finding her. I'm missing my daughter. I just, I don't know what happened to her and I want her home. Detectives also told us they have no clues on whether Jamie Haggard is still out there somewhere and neighbors here who live inside the house say they couldn't comment. Well, I think the mother, the stepmother is right to be concerned as to the fact scenario that she just walked away when her car is sitting in the driveway. So that's what we're being told by the stepbrother.

Now listen to KING5. Hours before she vanished, Jamie told her boyfriend she was afraid David would kill her. David told friends conflicting stories, telling some he last saw her just walking away and others that she left in a car with a stranger. Police later recovered a burned pair of pants from the backyard of the home where David and Jamie lived. It's just one thing after another that's heartbreaking. David also reportedly told people that he would not pass a polygraph test. When police reported sightings of Jamie, David told witnesses that was not possible. The police also say that a GPS from a stolen car that David was driving put him near the scene where Jamie's body was found.

He was already in jail on arson charges. Police believe he set those fires to try to conceal evidence related to this murder. His bond now set at two million dollars. So Dave Mack, her remains were found where? On the side of the road in a suitcase just thrown off the side. A crew working to clean the area actually found it and they took the bag to the roadway to be picked up by the trash truck and it was only an afterthought to open it and see what was inside and that's when they found jamie so all this time they're digging up the backyard she's actually her remains are in a suitcase thrown to the side of the road to dr tim. Tim Gallagher, medical examiner, state of Florida, how do you

make sense out of remains after a year has passed and they've been in a suitcase? Well, that's certainly not going to be an easy case, Nancy, but it's one that I accept the challenge for quite often. There are, of course, DNA. We have DNA of the parents, so we can make an identification that way, but we also have x-rays and dental work that we could also make a secondary identification with. And additionally, she may have jewelry or clothing or some tattoo that can be used as a secondary piece of identification as well. So it's not a very good case. It's a very gruesome case, but it's certainly one that any competent medical examiner can solve. Well, back to you, Dave Mack, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. What evidence do the

police have against David Haggard? They've zeroed in on him. Obviously, he's charged with arson, and they believe that he, what, burned some of her clothing or remains. I mean, what is the evidence against the stepbrother? Okay, well, you know, you ran a bit a minute ago where they talked about context clues. They have, the police have developed over the last couple of years, they found a pair of jeans that were burned, apparently, in the yard, and they were able to tie those directly to Jamie. But beyond that, the context clues of talking to neighbors and friends, they were able to prove that there was a relationship between Jamie Haggard and her half-brother David that was volatile on a good day, violent and vicious to the point where he, David, took pictures after he beat Jamie and put her in a bathtub tied up. They found that picture because he shared it with people.

So they were able to develop the background between the two and their relationship and how bad it really was. And they actually did have Jamie telling her boyfriend, and it was recorded, that she feared for her life that David had recently knocked her unconscious and that she was afraid he was going to kill her. What did they argue about, Dave Mack? Money, drugs, you name it. They had a lot of friction going on, but at the last moment, David was trying to get help from his girlfriend and the other roommate to push Jamie out. What we know now is that the brother, the stepbrother, David Brent Haggard, age 45, is charged with Jamie Haggard's death. Her little girls will very likely never remember her. We wait as justice unfolds.

Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye. This is an iHeart Podcast.