Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - SHOCKING RULING: BRYAN KOHBERGER IDAHO MURDER TRIAL MOVED AFTER FEAR OF THREATS

Episode Date: September 10, 2024

A request by Bryan Kohberger's defense team for a change of venue has been granted. His attorneys argued that the strong emotions in the community and extensive media coverage would make it impossible to find an impartial jury in Moscow. The defense also claimed that if Kohberger were acquitted in the town where the murder took place, he could face lynching and riots might erupt. Prosecutors countered, saying any potential bias could be addressed by expanding the pool of potential jurors and carefully vetting them. However, Judge John Judge ruled in favor of the defense, citing concerns about Kohberger's ability to receive a fair trial in the Latah County courthouse in Moscow. He referenced the widespread media coverage and statements from public officials implying Kohberger’s guilt. Additionally, the judge noted practical concerns: the courthouse is too small to accommodate the case, and the county sheriff's office lacks the personnel to provide adequate security. The judge did not specify where the trial would be moved. The Idaho Supreme Court will decide where Kohberger's trial will be held. According to Idaho court rules, judges who approve venue changes can indicate if they wish to remain on the case, but Judge John Judge did not do so, instead granting the motion under a rule that requires a new judge to be assigned. It remains unclear when the Idaho Supreme Court will assign a new venue or judge, or whether these changes will delay the trial. Joining Nancy Grace today:  Howard Blum - Author: "When The Night Comes Falling, A Requiem for The Idaho Student Murders"  Website: Howardblum.com  INSTA: howard_blum_author  TW/X: howardblum  Stephanie Pitcher  - Defense attorney and Civil trial attorney with Parker & McConkie, former felony Prosecutor - Website: https://www.parkerandmcconkie.com Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst Author: "Deal Breaker,”  featured in show: "Paris in Love" on Peacock, https://www.drbethanymarshall.com/, Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, Twitter: @DrBethanyLive Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective, Host of YouTube channel- ‘The Interview Room’,  ColdCaseFoundation.org Joseph Scott Morgan -  Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan", @JoScottForensic  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A shock ruling. Brian Koberger charged in four murders of beautiful Idaho students dead in their beds. His murder trial has been moved after fear of threats. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Brian Koberger's defense files for a trial venue change, citing extensive ongoing and inflammatory publicity. Will the motion be successful? In a bombshell shock ruling, the Koberger trial will be moved. The judge in this case, his last name is Judge, Judge, Judge,

has decided that based on alleged threats, which were developed during a defense poll of potential jurors, the trial should be moved. The judge also cites the fact that a larger courthouse may be more appropriate. Lata County has a population of around 40,000 people. Not so in a nearby county of Ada, population about 500,000. But here's the catch. Be careful what you wish for. You may surely get it. The defense has asked for a venue change. They've gotten a venue change, but that's like having a tiger by the tail. You can't hold on and you can't let go. What are you going to do? You asked for it. You got it. There's no reversal on that now, but they don't get to pick the jurisdiction.

For all we know, they could go to an even more conservative jurisdiction. Now, what does that mean? I don't mean how they vote in an election. I mean how they feel and approach violent crime charges. Also, we've got a clue by saying that the courthouse may be too small in Lata County that could indicate one of the few jurisdictions where there is a much larger courthouse. Joining me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now. But first, listen to this. In pushing to have his trial moved out of Latah County, Idaho, Brian Koberger's defense team says he will be lynched and riots will erupt if he is acquitted of the murders of four college students in the same town where the murders occurred. Koberger's team argues he would be

subjected to mob mentality and cites alleged threats from local residents that they would burn down the courthouse if he is acquitted. I want to make it very clear. There is no lynch mob. There's no one circling the courthouse or the jail with pitchforks and torches. That's not happening. Where did these alleged threats originate? Listen. Brian Koberger's defense team conducted a phone survey of hundreds of potential jurors in Latah County, asking them multiple questions about their knowledge of the case. According to the defense team, there is a bias against Koberger revealed in answers to questions such as, what would happen if Koberger is not convicted? Potential jurors in Latah County answered that question with, they'd burn the courthouse down. Outrage would be a mild description they would

probably find him and kill him and there would likely be a riot and he wouldn't last long outside because someone would do the good old boy justice and finally riots parents would take care of him. Now, that was elicited. Those comments were elicited by the defense in a poll that they did with potential jurors. Now, what does that mean? Sometimes you got to read the tea leaves. What does it all mean? The writing on the wall, so to speak. The defense also mentioned another jurisdiction. Listen. The Coburger defense team that claims their survey shows a bias against Coburger and Latah County suggests something different may happen in Ada County, where prospective jurors offered up very different responses to the same questions. Where prospective Latah County jurors expect riots to occur,

Ada County residents seem to think, quote, they would go on with life as always. Another prospective juror says, quote, I think they would take it well. Brian Koberger's defense team also points to the recent cases of Lori Vallow Daybell and Chad Daybell, who had their trials moved from Fremont County to Ada County due to publicity. And in the cases of cult mom Lori Vallow and her prophet husband, Chad Daybell. He gets the DP. She does not. So what does that mean? What does that mean for Koberger? Again, joining me in all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now, but straight out to Howard Blum, spelled B-L-U-M, pronounced Blum like the flower, author of a hit book. When the night comes falling a requiem for the Idaho student murders.

Howard, thank you for being with us. What do you make of them getting a change of venue? The defense gets a change of venue. And I just want to tell you one more thing. Let me set you up. Many people are claiming, oh, the defendant gets everything he wants. This is wrong. Can I tell you something? It's going to be extremely onerous for the state to prove its case in another jurisdiction. However, when there is a conviction, and I predict there

will be a conviction, everyone who complained about the venue change will thank Judge Judge because that's one less thing for the defense to bring up on appeal. And that's a very volatile issue on appeal. OK, because the appellate court has to take the facts as given them by the lawyers. They're not a fact finder. So they have to just basically read transcripts. So they have to discern, should there have been a venue change based on the transcripts, everything the defense said at that motions hearing. So as painful as it is, I think the judge was correct, Howard Bloom. I agree. He really had no choice. This is a

death penalty case. It's going to come up for appeal. He had to make sure that there was one less area for them to appeal about. What was so interesting to me, though, was that the prosecution really didn't challenge the authorities, the experts that were brought forward by the defense. They never did. Numbers were thrown at the judge. 68% of the people in one county thought he was guilty, 67 in another county thought he was guilty. Why didn't the defense, the prosecution rather, say, let's look at those numbers. Let's look how they did the math. They never really did the hard work. And the key issue here is not really moving the case. That I think was inevitable. But the real issue is, as you referred

to earlier, Judge Judge is going to be leaving. That brings in a whole new ballgame, a whole new judge who will look at discovery motions, who will try to have to catch up on the information. It means perhaps even more delays of the trial. Well, what happened in the hearing? In the hearing, did the judge make any allusion to the fact he would no longer be on the case? In his ruling, in his written ruling, he put in language that says the decision is going to be decided by the administration of the Supreme Court of Idaho. That tacitly implies that the decision will be made, that he is leaving the case and that a new judge will report him. That seems to be a certainty.

Howard Bloom, you're right. In the language the judge used to grant the change of venue, he did not include language specifically asking or stating he would stay on the case. That would be expected. That didn't happen. So we're going to have a whole new judge. Guys, joining me in all star panel to figure out what this means for the trial that we now know is going forward, we think is going forward next summer. Listen. The Coburger defense team that claims their survey shows a bias against Coburger and Latah County suggests something different may happen in Ada County, where prospective jurors offered up very different responses to the same questions.

Where prospective Latah County jurors expect riots to occur, Ada County residents seem to think, quote, they would go on with life as always. Another prospective juror says, quote, I think they would take it well. Brian Koberger's defense team also points to the recent cases of Lori Vallow Daybell and Chad Daybell, who had their trials moved from Fremont County to Ada County due to publicity. Straight out to Stephanie Pitcher, a defense attorney, former felony prosecutor, and she is with Parker and McConkle. Stephanie, thank you for being with us. We've seen a lot of venue changes in high profile cases, but what in reality does this mean? What can you tell us about Ada County?

Now, just because the defense brings up Ada County and its motions does not mean that's where the trial is going to be. The Idaho Supreme Court will make that decision in its wisdom. But what about Ada County? The change of venue, we still don't know where this is going to go. It's up to the Supreme Court to make that decision. But I think the defense team is looking at Ada County as a possibility just due to the nature of the size of that county. There are many more prospective jurors that could join and weigh in. These same jurors aren't going to have the same bias that the defense team argues is present in Moscow. And so I think Ada

County is at the top of people's minds simply due to the size. Moscow, yes, you're right. According to the last census, they were at about 39,000 and Ada was about half a million. Of course, we also have heard discussions of Boise as well, Stephanie Pitcher. What do you make of that? And in your experience of trying cases, how difficult is it? Of course, the state is the one that bears the burden. So it's much harder on the state. What do you make of that? Boise? You know, Bo know Boise yes certainly Boise is a possibility I think that the outcome ultimately is going to be the same we saw this with the Chad Daybell or yeah the Chad and Lori Vallow cases as well there was a change of venue they went into Ada County a much larger population of jurors I think that the defense team is crossing their t's and dotting

their i's these are things that they need to move on behalf of their client so that they don't see any ineffective assistance of counsel so that they give him a strong defense. But ultimately, I think that the outcome is going to be the same regardless of where it's moved. Joining us, Dr. Bethany Marshall, now psychoanalyst, joining us out of L.A., author of Deal Breaker. You can see her on Peacock as well. She's at DrBethanymarshall.com. Dr. Bethany, I understand why various family members are saying this is unfair, that he always gets everything he wants. He has been getting everything he wants in a legal manner of speaking, but that is to ensure the trial process and to ensure that a conviction is held. That's right. This wasn't granted. And then there was the conviction. This would be

a huge avenue of appeal, but it doesn't feel that way at the time for family members. Nancy, if they were in my office, I would do something called psychoeducation. That's where I would educate them about the fact that going through a long, prolonged court proceeding can feel victimizing or re-traumatizing. At the same time, I would educate them about the justice system. Slow down. What did you just say about re-traumatizing? The legal system often re-traumatizes the victims. They have to hear the same stories again and again. The outcome is dependent on jurors and a judge. They have to think, feel, eat, sleep, Brian Koberger, for months and perhaps even years. And this is going to make them feel retraumatized. And so I would try to educate them about the criminal justice system and the fact that these

delays are actually in order to meet their needs, to meet the needs of the victim, to find justice for their children. Because at this point, it doesn't seem that anybody's educating them in the same way you are, Nancy. You're explaining to all of us that dragging this out, which is how they're going to experience it, actually ensures a conviction. It doesn't sound like they really know that. The case is now going to be tried next summer. Are they talking about summer 25 or summer 26 by next summer? They are talking about summer 25, but that's just what they're talking about now. Once there is a new judge on the case, everything can be relooked at again. We're really starting for scratch. What's also really

interesting, I think, is a new judge can rule on discovery information. What the defense really wants, more than a change of venue, I believe, is to get more discovery information. They want to see how this sausage was put together, how this case was made. They've been complaining they really don't understand how the authorities got onto Kohlberger. The key to that is the genetic information. They want to see through the discovery how the FBI cracked the genetic investigation. Judge has not given them sufficient information. Perhaps they believe a new judge will. That's the key issue here, I think. Okay, hold on. Hold on right there, Bloom. Hold on right there. The judge has given them sufficient information, but I think that they will get even more data.

It's really simple how the L.E. in the area law enforcement got on to Koeberger. And it really, at the outset, had nothing to do with DNA analysis. Joining me, Chris McDonough, director of the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective, around 300 homicides under his belt, and host of the Interview Room on YouTube. Chris, thank you for being with us. You and I both spent a lot of time in Moscow. It's a very small and very tight-knit community. It's a college community, which many people consider to be liberal. Don't know if that's always true, but that said, it all started when Koberger was driving his car. Oh yes, good times. There we are outside the crime scene. When Koberger drove his car past a little gas station at about 4 a.m. and a clerk pulled it and saw an Elantra,

but at the very outset, an Elantra was mentioned. And it's my understanding, Chris McDonough, that the campus security over where he, Koberger, was studying to get his PhD. They pulled everybody that had an Elantra and his name came up. That's how it all started with his car. Yeah, well, 100 percent, Nancy. I mean, it was great initial gumshoe, you know, police work where, you know, they had a vehicle, they had phone pings of variety, you know, within that area. They hadn't identified a phone yet initially, but they had a vehicle on video coming up that street from that one house on the corner, I would submit.

And all of a sudden they started looking for this car and lo and behold, a young patrol officer over at, you know, the Western University over there in Washington pulls up this guy's car and goes, hey, wait a minute, we got one right here. And they were off to the races. The judge officially sets Koberger's trial to begin in June 2025, more than two and a half years after the stabbing deaths of four Idaho students. Our defense team firmly, and I mean firmly, believes in Mr. Koberger's innocence. And right now he's being held to have a trial in a county that believes that he is guilty. If you deny a change of venue, Mr. Koberger's constitutional right to a fair trial is denied. In the last hours, the judge in this case presiding over the Koberger quadruple murder case has moved venue. Whole new courthouse, whole new judge,

all new rulings. We'll see where that lands the defense, but let's just get a reality check. What is this case all about? Before we get mired down in legal minutia, What's it all about? Joseph Scott Morgan joining me, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet, and star of a hit new series podcast, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joseph Scott, you know, I think this a lot when I was trying cases. And now I look at everybody all dressed to the nines perfectly groomed in court the defendant flanked by his lawyers both counsel tables covered in documents and legal research and and you know exhibits and all the media sitting there quietly to take notes. Everything is so pristine and so perfect, ain't it?

But that is not what this case is about. This case is about these four victims that were brutally, brutally murdered, unarmed, many of them in their own beds at the witching hour between three and four o'clock in the morning. What happened to these four beautiful Idaho students? Sharp force injuries, multiple of them on probably all four victims, Nancy. And we're talking about an individual that moved, whoever did this attack, moved between several floors while they were perpetrating this. And there would not be a pristine environment. You're talking about probably a super saturated area involving blood that would have been adjacent to the bodies, on the bodies. And isn't that the contrast?

You know, you talk about this kind of pristine courtroom environment, and then they're going to introduce these images into the courtroom. And you're going to hear people like myself and certainly the forensic pathologists, they're going to sit there and they're going to talk about how brutal these killings were. They're going to talk about stab wounds as well as incised wounds. We know of one victim that her hand was cut down allegedly to her tendons. So this is the height of brutality. And I can understand why they're worried about this, the defense that is, because when it's revealed, it is going to shock the court.

And I think probably to a certain extent, shock all of us as well. We don't know the full extent yet. You know, Joe Scott, when I think about the victim, one of them waking up and saying, somebody's here, you know, they're groggy these four Moscow students Idaho University students waking up and groggy and confused I could no more fight off an armed killer at 4 o'clock in the morning than the man in the moon but this guy the killer was awake and alert dressed black, wearing a mask after surveilling them for the Lord only knows how long, for just the right night, just the right moment, just the right minute. And then slashed them to death in that groggy, nocturnal, somambulant state that they were in, Joe Scott, they couldn't fight back. Yeah, their pain centers would have been firing.

And that would have been the first. Well, they probably would have felt the weight. And then their pain centers would have been firing. Their pain centers start firing. What do you mean? Well, every time this and keep in mind that the weapon that they're talking about, Nancy, is a K-bar. And the length of this blade is, listen to me now, seven inches in length, seven inches of steel, okay, that you're talking about. So we're talking about stab wounds, which people understand is where a blade is inserted. And we're also talking about incised wounds, allegedly, where things are sliding.

What's that? Well, let's just think about, and the way I compare it when I teach my students is we'll take actually a piece of fruit and take a knife and draw it across the surface of it. And depending upon how much pressure is applied, that correlates to the depth of the injury. Now you've got individuals here that are living, they're aware of this, and there's going to be a lot of twisting and turning. That's why every time this knife is introduced into their body onto any surface. Okay, slow down. I'm trying to take it in. You got me drinking from the fire hydrant. Twisting and turning, what does that have to do with anything? Of course, they're trying to get away. Yeah, but it's also the pain.

It's the response. That's why I said the response to the pain center is firing. Because, I mean, just think about it. Even if you're in a groggy state, once those receptors are firing and it's going to your brain, the first thing you want to do, it's like a bee sting. You want to try to get away from it. Well, just imagine this happening to you over and over and over again. And so that gives you an idea. And I like the way you painted this, how they're in this kind of groggy state.

It's dark. I don't know about you, like sleep in a dark bedroom, can't sleep with a lot of light. And also one other thing, it would have taken them maybe a bit more time to respond. There's some indication that they may have all been out that night. I think that we kind of understand that. Alcohol may have been imbibed. So that's going to be a factor, too, in their ability to respond and to defend themselves, Nancy. Just thinking about what you are saying.

You said something about pain receptors firing. I'm trying to understand what that means. It's them getting out of bed and they're totally out of it. And the first thing they register is intense, unbelievable pain from being stabbed repeatedly with a seven inch blade, as you said, seven inches of steel. Yes. You say the pain receptors start firing. I guess that means they're brought to screams, to tears out of the pain.

Is that what that means? Yes, absolutely. It's a reactive event. It's very primal. And here's the other thing that people might not be aware of. We have two people in each room that were attacked. So there would be an awareness, perhaps, obviously, of the first person that's being attacked, of their pain centers firing. And then the other person, if they are

able to, if they're coming out of this grogginess, they're going to hear a sound and it'll be reactive. The trick is, you know, and you have togginess, they're going to hear a sound and it'll be reactive. The trick is that, you know, and you have to understand this, they couldn't react quick enough either, even though someone else was initially stabbed. You know, to Dr. Bethany Marshall, going off, jumping off what Professor Joseph Scott Morgan has just told us, Think about it. Where's Bethany? Bethany. The defense gets with all of this in mind, the pain. I'd rather endure it myself than think my child lived through what these four lived through. Now think about it.

The parents of these poor victims have had to hear about, he wants a laptop. He wants more visits with his priest and hear about. He wants a laptop. He wants more visits with his priest and his lawyer. He wants a special diet. He wants alone time. He wants exercise. He wants internet access. I mean, does it never end? And they have to go to bed every night thinking about their children and their pain receptors and being ripped to shreds by the killer. And this is the problem with trials with these psychopaths like Brian Koberger. Not only do they get off on the crime, the infliction of pain, the stealth, the whole activity that the crime is planned out to give him the utmost satisfaction and sexual

pleasure. But now he's in court and the crime is being relived. It's being talked about. He's being shown images of it. Who knows underneath that flat effect what he's really feeling and thinking? It could be sexual excitement. It could be a thrill. It could be, like we saw with Rex Herman, who called the victims' families, sort of this satisfaction that the family members are sitting there and now they have to live through it. So this is the re-victimization and the re-traumatization that the family's going to go through. You know, Nancy, trauma doesn't just come from us being hurt. Trauma is when you see that a loved one has been hurt. It's really witnessing the pain and the suffering of the other, not the

self. And I think about these victims. I think what happened in that night, too, besides the pain centers being activated, is that they were extremely disoriented and they were in a bed. There was no place to go. It was dark. And for any of your viewers have been in a car accident or some construction accident, at first you have no idea what's happening. And that's part of a trauma too, is that there's a sudden intrusion of something that's completely unanticipated and for which there's no frame of reference. Prosecutors plan to seek the death penalty for the accused Idaho students murderer. The question of where the Brian Koberger trial will commence will be answered by the Idaho Supreme Court. Under Idaho court rules, judges who grant motions to move trials can indicate

if they want to remain on the case. Judge John Judge did not do so in his order, instead granting the motion under a rule that provides for a new judge to be assigned. It is not clear when the Idaho Supreme Court will assign a new venue or a new judge, and the question of whether these changes will force a delay in the trial date is unclear. And again, Oscar Wilde said it the best, be careful what you ask my dear, for you will surely get it. So they get a new venue. Fine. I would have been surprised if that had not been granted in the case of this magnitude and of this publicity. But that also means a new judge. And I got to tell you, there were judges I would actually cringe when I would find

out my case was assigned to that judge. They would be extremely defense oriented, possibly, you know, the judge had been a public defender their whole life and then got appointed to the bench and just really hated the state. Not me, not anybody, not a witness on my side, just had a bias against the state. And I would hate it. Or you'd have a rude judge, a horrible judge, a hateful judge. They're on the bench too. So you might have, let me just say, I had one judge so smart, I will not reveal his name. And he would sit back in his chambers with his law clerk and they would drink tea imported from

Great Britain with China, you know, the very delicate China would all be in the courtroom waiting. And the judge would be drinking tea talking about, I don't want to go out there. It's just not fun anymore. Fun, my rear end, get up on the bench and do your duty. Yes. So it's like, have you ever been at the fair and you pay 10 cents for the grab bag and you poke your hand and you pull something out? That's what you're getting. It's also called a pig and a poke. You know, you don't know what you're getting out of that bag and you might just get a pig, which is something you may not want. So they're getting the change of venue. But who will the judge be?

Straight out to Chris McDonough. He's been in front of plenty of judges. He's now the star of the interview room on YouTube. And you can find him at ColdCaseFoundation.org. And he's got all these accolades for a reason, former homicide investigator and handled around 300 homicide scenes. Chris McDonough, the judge can make all the difference. I've had a butt chewing by so many judges held in contempt.

You name it. You don't want that judge. Yeah, you definitely don't want that judge for sure, Nancy. And the family doesn't want that judge either. And in this situation, I think one of the things we have to take a look at is the frustration that the family has because the judge now has recused himself and said, hey, you know what, because of these other reasons, I'm going to pull out of this as well and give you somebody else. Well, that's a big win for the defense, in my opinion. You know, I've been in that circumstance where, you know, you

think everything's going well, and next thing you know, you are in front of this new guy. And what was interesting, his ruling, on page 16 of his ruling, he said a reasonable likelihood that the prejudicial news coverage will compromise a fair trial. The judge referred to international news coverage. Now, I don't know how moving to Ada County is going to escape international news coverage, but fine. I'd be mad if you didn't. Go ahead. Yeah. And then he brings in the logistics arguments, right? Well, I have to think, how long has he been thinking about this, that there aren't enough deputies, there aren't enough clerks, the jurors could be tainted. Has it been over a year? And if so, why didn't he pull the trigger earlier? That's one of the things that I have to question, you know, this judge about this ruling for that reason alone.

If the judge grants a change of venue, will Brian Koberger face a more conservative jury? How would travel to a new location affect proceedings? Well, there have been a lot of high-profile venue changes. Let me give you a few I came up with last night. Well, Simpson, of course, got moved and that resulted in a not guilty the Rodney King case move. Timothy McVeigh didn't make a difference. Oh gosh, I was just looking at colleges with the twins in D.C. and I was telling them about the Beltway snipers. Remember them? The sharpshooters, Lee Boyd Malvo and John Allen Muhammad and how I would fly to D.C. to do the Larry King show two or three times a week. And people would be afraid to even leave the parking lot,

leave the airport to go to their cars. Everyone was in so much fear of the snipers, the D.C. snipers. Then, of course, there's Scott Peterson. Don't want to leave him out of any murder discussion. His venue was changed to Redwood City. Lacey was killed, we believe, in Modesto. Oh, there he is. There he is. Great shot. And it got moved to Redwood City. I know it very well because I lived there for about four months during the trial.

Then there's Fred Tokars. May he rot in hell. He murdered his wife and his two children were in the back seat. One of them said mommy's head blew up like a pumpkin. His case was actually moved from Atlanta to Birmingham, a different state, because it was a federal case. That's not true here. It's going to be moved somewhere in Idaho. Then you've got John Wayne Gacy.

Now, that had a different twist. Gacy's trial was not moved, but the jury was moved. They brought in jurors from another jurisdiction. Then there's Justin Ross Harris. He just got reversed. He left his child, baby Cooper, in the car and Cooper died while he was sexting underage teens about sex. His case was moved from Cobb County in Metro Atlanta to Savannah, as I recall, on the coast.

Kristen Smart, that case was moved. And, of course, we always bring up Lori Vallow. Her case was moved to Ada County near Boise. Long story short, long story short, she didn't get the death penalty for other reasons. Her prophet husband did after his case was moved. So there is a long and rich history of changing venues. And very often it has no effect on the outcome of the case. But I, contrary to what a lot of people are saying,

support, judge, judge, because in the end, if there is a conviction, God willing, there will be a true verdict. This is one less grounds of appeal. I want to talk about something we observed in court. No matter what the topic is, Koberger remains with a flat affect.

Listen. Years before he allegedly murdered four college students, Brian Koberger talks of having no real feelings, that he feels nothing when he looks at his own family, going so far as to say, quote, As I hug my family, I look into their faces, I see nothing. It is like I am looking at a video game, but less. From any teenager, that would be a sad, scary comment.

But coming from Koberger at age 16, from someone suspected of multiple homicides just 10 years later, maybe it's a warning. As I hug my family, I look into their faces. I see nothing. It's like I'm looking at a video game, but less. Of course, I'm going to go to Dr. Bethany Marshall. But first, to Howard Bloom, author of, as of right now, the definitive book on Brian Koberger. It's called When the Night Comes Falling, a Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders. And I've got to tell you, I read every word. And you had so much evidence and so many facts that many people, including myself, didn't know.

And it was really illuminating, Howard, very illuminating. I want to talk to you about this flat affect we see no matter what's happening in court. I'm wondering if they're going to try to school him as to how to act in front of a jury like he has feelings. What do you make of it? Well, first of all, all the facts, all the change of venue lead back to one thing, his alibi. And the alibi is so thin, so specious that he was off stargazing at 4 a.m. in a park where no one could see him on a cloudy night. That's the best they could come up with. So as you say, changing the venue.

Affect, affect. Hold on. You know what my old co-anchor, Johnny Cochran, God rest his soul, he had Simpson, OJ Simpson, act engaged in court. And when he couldn't act engaged, he had him doodle like he was taking legal notes. This is what he was writing. I'm pretty sure. But I can't prove that since Cochran has gone on to the great beyond and Simpson's dead. I know where he is. Hell. But my point is, I'm trying to get to his affect.

Howard Bloom, his affect. It never changes. I mean, did you see the video of him when he got pulled over by a cop? Let's see it. Go ahead, Howard. Well, he stares straight ahead. He almost looks. changes. I mean, did you see the video of him when he got pulled over by a cop? Let's see it. Go ahead, Howard. Well, he stares straight ahead. He almost looks, he's totally detached. What he has done is change his wardrobe. He had pomades his hair now for court. For the last court hearing was the first time he didn't wear a tie, open neck shirt, but usually wears a suit and a tie.

He looks very proper and then stares straight ahead. When Ann Taylor comes up to him on times, she puts her arm around him, maternally even, and he does not budge. He seems as if he's already been drugged. Who knows? His state seems very controlled, almost catatonic. He's not drugged, Howard. That's his affect. Dr. Bethany Marshall. Look, I don't know if you can see this video, but he shows no emotion. In fact, he's basically schooling this lady traffic officer on what she did wrong. Hello. Okay, Nancy, he has what I call dead eyes and sociopaths do. It's like there is nothing there. Flat affect is one of the 20 features of psychopathy. That is one of the signs when you do a full assessment, they don't feel

anything. They don't feel attachment. They don't feel love. They don't feel joy. The only thing they can feel is cruelty and the thrill of killing other people. So power and sadism seem to be the only thing that they can feel. And they have something, Nancy, called alexithymia. That means that they use the same words you and I would use, like, oh, I'm happy. Oh, I was with my family. But the words don't have the depth of meaning for them. And this is not like, let's say, someone who's traumatized, so they dissociate and they cut off from their feelings. This is much more primary and biological. This means he was born this way without affect or internal experience.

As a teen, Brian Koberger makes posts in a forum website, Tapatalk. Koberger talks about visual snow, a condition that causes one's vision to be obscured by floating dots, adding he struggles with the constant thought of suicide. Danette Jean Elg reports to police she has a prowler. Days later, her mutilated body is found on her punctured waterbed.Nette suffers 15 stab wounds, but did manage to inflict injury on her attacker, Richard Albert Leavitt. After killing DeNette, Leavitt removed her sexual organs, then goes to the emergency room for his own wounds. Leavitt's blood at the scene becomes part of the evidence that convicts Leavitt, and he is sentenced to death. Levitt spends nearly 30 years on death row before the sentence is carried out by lethal injection June 12, 2012. Change of venues don't always help killers.

To Stephanie Pitcher, joining us, high-profile lawyer out of this jurisdiction, working with Parker and McConkle, What do you make of it, Stephanie? I'm sure you've tried cases where the venue was changed or in the alternative, you bus in jurors from another jurisdiction. They have to stay sequestered in a hotel, but that way hundreds of personnel and witnesses don't have to be bused to another jurisdiction, just the jurors. What is your experience on that? And do you believe it makes a difference? Yeah, I have tried cases where the venue has been changed. And, you know, by and large, I find that the outcome is unchanged. The defense in this case gets the benefit of having a larger

pool of jurors, but the evidence doesn't change. The witnesses don't change. Certainly there's more space at the courtroom to accommodate witnesses and media and things like that. The bottom line is the evidence doesn't change. That is the bottom line. I think the only way the evidence will be affected that goes before the jury is because of the change of judge and what evidence the new judge will allow in. We wait for justice for the University of Idaho victims. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.