Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Shocking Valentine's Love Crimes

Episode Date: February 14, 2018

Love is in the air on Valentine's Day, but this special Crime Stories episode reminds us of how the passion can turn into poison. What lessons has Nancy Grace learned after many years as a prosecutor and then as a TV host covering cases of love gone bad? She discusses those lessons with Dr. Brian Russell, a lawyer and psychologist who hosts Investigation Discovery's "Fatal Vows" series, Cold Case Research Institute director Sheryl McCollum, lawyer & child advocate Ashley Willcott, and RadarOnline.com reporter Alexis Tereszcuk. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. Happy Valentine's, everybody. This is Crime Stories. I'm Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us. And what would Valentine's Day be without murder? I don't know what it would be. In my world, the two are very, very connected. With me right now, Dr. Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist, and host of Investigation Discovery's Fatal Vows. Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Ashley Wilcott, lawyer and advocate and investigative journalist.

Alexis Tereschuk with RadarOnline.com. First to Dr. Brian Russell, host of Fatal Vows on Investigation Discovery. Dr. Brian Russell, I've got a question for you. And please, Dr. Russell, we all know you're brilliant. Would you please try to talk regular people talk for me? Explain to me what you mean in your love lessons, shoot for stability and mental health. I mean, isn't that pretty much a given, Dr. Russell? You don't want some psycho, right?

You certainly would think so. What better day than Valentine's Day to talk about how not to end up on Fatal Vows, not to end up on my show. And one of the things that we've seen over the five seasons we've been on the air is that many times when you look back at the end of the episode, there were signs readily available in the murderer from the beginning that they were at least going to be nothing but trouble for the victim and potentially... Nothing but trouble. Cheryl McCollum, why do we gravitate toward bad boys, nothing but trouble? Why is that? Because it's sexy, Nancy. It's fun. You want somebody that kind of goes against the grain and is going to do some things that's always been kind of forbidden.

It's a blast. Well, I don't know what kind of life you're living, Cheryl McCollum, but I want somebody to get out of bed with me at five o'clock in the morning and get to work helping me get the children to school and pay in the house note. That's what I want. Okay, I know that's not very sexy, but Dr.rian russell lawyer psychologist and host of the hit show fatal vows on investigation discovery let me ask you this uh do you remember jody arias listen very dear friend of travis alexander overheard travis arguing with arias on the telephone mike thank you for being with us. Thank you for having me. Mike, I'm kind of knocked out by Travis explaining to you how he was so

distressed when Arias decided to move back to Mesa. That he did not want her to move back. He told her not to move back. She moved back anyway. She would actually get into his home by coming through the doggy door. Yeah, there were lots of stories about times when she was sneaking around his house, you know, even sneaking into it. And he would find her there, you know, late at night. You know, I heard one person talk about a story that he relayed to them of she was vacuuming his house in the middle of the night. So just really, really creepy behavior all the way around. That was me interviewing a principal in the Arias murder of Travis Alexander on Headline News. The moment somebody tries to get in your doggy door, Dr. Brian Russell, don't you think that's kind of a tip off? There's something way wrong. Well, exactly. And you know, one of the aspects of this that

we're talking about is the bad boy, bad girl phenomenon where somebody is exciting and people go for the excitement and sort of tune out all of the other red flags. But the other aspect of this is the rescuing aspect. There are many people, and this affects men and women both, who are drawn to somebody that they feel is in distress and that they can rescue. And a lot of times they think it's about them wanting to do such wonderful thing for somebody else, but a lot of times it's actually about themselves feeling good and powerful and useful and all of that. And one of the things that I've said for five years on Fatal Vows is a relationship that starts with a rescue is almost never a good idea. So wait, wait, wait. Don't mess with my head, Brian Russell. Are you telling me the whole pretty woman thing with Julia Roberts, that's not true? Right, okay. Hold on.

Listen to this. Dr. Brian Russell with me. Murder plus Valentine's Day. What could be better? Listen. Spent three or four hours with him in a truck in August. And during that time, he and Arias were going at it on the phone and on text. What were they arguing about? Travis was just arguing with her and she

was arguing back about her moving to Mesa after they had broken up. It was the first time that I had actually learned about this. And yeah, we were in the truck for a few hours and it was text messages and phone calls. And a lot of what I heard, you know, on Travis's end was just, you know, why did you move there? We're not together. We're not going to be together anymore. You have no reason to be there. There's no other reason for you to move to Mesa but for me. So stop making those excuses and, you know, just tell me why you did it.

And it went on that way for hours. You know, Mike, one of the photos that you showed us, you met up with Travis at one of the conventions. And you thought, as you said, it was an Arias-free weekend. Liz, do you have that shot? And then you look at photos taken of you with him or just him. And suddenly there's Arias kind of like smiling at the camera in the background and only then did you realize she was there that's from hln yeah wait a minute so she was actually showing up at work events out of town work events where she wasn't supposed to be

you take a shot of travis alexander and who is now dead by the way Jodi Arias murdered him and there in the background photo bomb there's Jodi Arias I'm looking at it right now she's smiling in the distance Dr. Brian Russell the first thing you say is shoot for mental health and stability Alexis Tereschuk RadarOnline.com joining Joining us, Alexis, there were so many signs, and we're just using Jodi Arias and Travis Alexander, her lover, now deceased, as an example of when you start getting that hinky feeling, you come in and they're in your home vacuuming your home at night. That's wrong.

When you find out, they go through the doggy door. Alexis, get away. Run. Run for the hills as if you had seen a monster. What more can you tell me about this example? Jodi Arias and Dr. Brian Russell's list number one, sheep from mental health instability. Other examples that Jodi Arias did, everybody was over at Travis's house for Christmas,

having a party. All of a sudden, people noticed Jodi had snuck in the house, and she was hiding behind the Christmas tree. Okay, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let me just let that sink in a moment. Don't say another word. Hold on. Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Institute.

Cheryl, you and I have prosecuted a lot of cases together, but if I come in and my boyfriend is hiding behind the Christmas tree, he's getting a butt full of buckshot, okay? Oh, yeah, that's a good way to get shot. There ain't no doubt about it. Nancy, the main thing that I keep hearing over and over is people explaining away behavior. Well, she loves me. Well, she couldn't be away from me.

Well, they were a perfect couple. Stop explaining away a stalker, a criminal, a con artist. Stop it. She's crazy. Ashley Wilcott, lawyer and advocate. Ashley, shoot for mental health and stability help me out Ashley oh run don't walk and here's the thing if you ever heard this expression and I'm saying it can be true for women as well but you know I've always heard hey crazy women they're great and in the sack and so

I do think that comes into play I think that sometimes it's like oh they're a lot of fun it's okay if they're a little crazy no no It's okay if they're a little crazy. No, no, no, there's no such thing as a little crazy. Okay, Ashley, I've never really heard that. Okay, I guess we're running in different circles. All right. Dr. Brian Russell, I think Ashley Wilcott could use your help right now. So what we're hearing, what we're talking about right now are signs of crazy that come out during the course of the relationship. Things that that Travis, for example, observed in his relationship with Jody. One of the things I want to mention, though, is when you're first getting to know somebody, if you hear them talking about, you know, a really, really chaotic, crazy childhood that they had or a struggle,

a history of struggle they've had with mental illness or addiction or something like that. Sometimes people are inclined to hear those stories and think, oh, my gosh, I feel so sorry for this person. I really want to, you know, try to be there for this person. I really want to try to help this person have a good life now by being in their life and being a good relationship partner for them. And one of the things I often point out on Fatal Vows is just because you somebody went through something horrific or they've struggled with something and you feel sorry for them does not mean that they and it might be through no fault of their own, but it doesn't mean that they are going to be equipped to be a good relationship

partner for you. It doesn't mean they've had a good example of what healthy relationships look like. It doesn't mean that they are not, you know, unfortunately plagued with all kinds of struggles of their own that are going to be big trouble for you. And so just because you feel sorry for somebody doesn't mean you have to sacrifice yourself to them. Okay. Dr. Brian Russell, I'm going to put this in regular people speak because I learned that really from hearing parables when I couldn't understand the concept. And then I transferred it to juries, Cheryl, Ashley, Alexis, we've all been in, I guess we have been in bad relationships before we find our prince. Okay.

And, you know, as my husband, David Lynch says, Hey, look, I'm sorry. I'm not perfect. And Oh, true words were never spoken. But you know what? I always say back if I'm not seething at the moment, you know what? You may not be perfect, but you're perfect for me. Okay. Let me, let me just go to Alexis Tereshchuk. Certainly Alexis, you had your perfect for me. Okay. Let me, let me just go to Alexis Tereshuk. Certainly,

Alexis, you had your share of frogs. Okay. Let me just give a couple of examples, not your frogs, mine. Okay. There was, um, let me just say my, my first love. All right. His dad was an alcoholic that I later learned beat the mom. I guess I learned it at the time actually. And the son was so nervous, uh, beautiful blue eyes, fun personality, but so nervous. And you know, Alexis, you and I have learned from all the cases we've covered. If your parents had an abusive relationship, you're likely to abuse or be abused in your relationships. That's one frog. Let's see. Then there was another frog that I just happened to look on his computer and find out he was contacting mail order brides from Russia. Whoopsie.

Okay. Then let's see. Who's another frog? Oh yeah, there's another frog that always wanted to pick out my clothes and jewelry and tell me how much better I would look in that than my typical black pants and boots. I mean, what's wrong with that? So Alexis, having somebody that wants to dress you up like a Barbie doll, that's a little weird, right? It's following you up and down the stairs with a string of fake pearls to put around your neck. That's not bothering you, Alexis?

In your relationship, yes, but to me it sounds like an episode of The Bachelor now. People are normalizing. On the very first episode of The Bachelor, this season, he took her out and bought her clothes and bought her jewelry and everything like that. I'm sorry. I'm working. I don't have time to watch The Bachelor, although didn't some bachelor just run down somebody on a tractor? Then that I was

interested in. Cheryl McCollum, help me out. It seems innocent, but then all of a sudden, you're running through the house and they're chasing you with a knife. Exactly. Nancy, I cannot stress this enough. The first time you get a gut feeling, this is odd, or this doesn't make me feel good, or this is weird, you need to listen to that and take action because of it. It ain't going to get any better. Because I'll tell you, we all know dating is when they put their best foot forward. So this is the best it's ever going to be. That's right. Well, does she have a point? I mean, does she have a point, Dr. Brian Russell? Yes, she does. She does. That's right.

When the person is trying to impress you is usually when they're going to be concealing as best they can, those aspects of themselves that they know are going to be red flags potentially. And so this is another thing. You have to give yourself plenty of time to get to know somebody because these things take time sometimes to show themselves, especially when somebody is actively trying to conceal them. Okay, hold on just a moment. Take a listen to this.

Also friends with Travis Alexander. Patrick Henry is with us. Mr. Henry, you described a scenario that occurred about two months prior to Travis's murder where a group of people were talking together about the breakup of Travis and Jody Alexander. What happened? Well, in that conversation we were all discussing and someone had brought up, I wonder what happened to all of Jody's ex-boyfriends. And one young lady said they're probably buried in the desert somewhere. Okay, you know what?

When people are standing around talking about if your previous boyfriends and girlfriends are dead and buried in the desert, that's a problem. Listen. A longtime friend of Travis Alexander's, Jacob Mefford, he actually went on that Cancun trip, the one that Alexander didn't make because he was dead. Jacob, thanks for being with us. Thank you. Jacob, you went on the Cancun trip. You had socialized with Arias in the past. Take it from the beginning.

When did you first meet her, and what was your impression? Well, back in the MySpace days before Facebook, my wife was friends with Travis and was kind of searching through some comments and saw a comment by Jodi. And immediately pulled up her profile on MySpace and was completely creeped out about what she saw. There was a lot of, like, witchcraft things and just really creepy stuff that just you wouldn't see on an average person. Wait, wait, whoa. Didn't know this. You're going to have to run that by me again. Witchcraft, what? Was this when she was already dating, Travis?

Yeah, apparently. I didn't know at the time that she had. They had just met in Vegas maybe a month or a couple weeks before, but she had witchcraft listed on her MySpace. She had a bunch of different, you know, freaky things on her MySpace page. That is from my previous show on HLN Headline News. Okay, I would say, wouldn't you, Dr. Brian Russell, that you should look on the, when you're looking at a potential mate, you should look them up on the internet. And if they've got witchcraft as an interest, probably cancel the next date. Absolutely. And let me point something else out. Everybody on the show here today with us is, even though we're all young people, we've got enough life experience that something like that jumps out at us immediately. And another one of my lessons that I often tell people is, you know, when you are 20 or 21 or 22, sometimes these kinds of things you think, oh, isn't the person so interesting or aren't they? Isn't that so exciting that they're interested background a person would have that would that would be a good partner for you.

You really are probably not well equipped at 20. Well, Dr. Brian Russell, your your desires and what you're looking for changes. Like in high school, you're just looking for somebody to go to the prom, I guess. In college, you're looking for somebody to hang out with and have fun with. When you're first working, and I'm just speaking for myself,

you're probably looking for someone to enjoy interests like hiking or whatever it is you like. Then suddenly in my mind, at least with me, Ashley Wilcott, it all shifted. And what I was looking for when I wanted to start a family. It does shift and that's natural. That's the natural progression as you get older and get wiser. But you have to know it doesn't mean if you're 20, 25 and you meet someone that's fun and exciting and different, that doesn't mean jump into a relationship with them. It doesn't mean let's have this big relationship where she has an opportunity to get crazy in this particular case and actually murder me. It means go to something else, Go to some other kind of fun.

Stay away from crazy. With me, Dr. Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist, host of the hit show Fatal Vows on Investigation Discovery, Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Institute, Ashley Wilcott, lawyer and advocate, and Alexis Tereshuk, RadarOnline.com, filling us in with all the facts. I want to pause and thank my partner making today's Valentine's equals murder special possible. It's LegalZoom. New Year's is over, and now it's time to write your own success story for 2018, and LegalZoom can help you with that. Let this be the year you finally launch and run your own business or rest easier knowing your family's future is secure by you making the right estate plan. As a matter of fact, LegalZoom has been helping people just like us take care of dreams and responsibilities over 16 years.

The good news is LegalZoom is not a law firm, but they have the resources to put you on the right path, including advice from a nationwide network of independent lawyers at your fingertips. Whether you want to take your business to the next level or take control of your family's future with an estate plan, LegalZoom plugs right into your life without billable hours like a law firm. Because at LegalZoom, pricing is up front. What a relief. Special savings? Enter promo code Nancy in the referral box at checkout. LegalZoom, where life meets legal. LegalZoom.com. And now we head to Modesto, California. Joining me, Dr. Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist, host of the hit show on investigation discovery, Fatal Vows. Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Institute. Ashley Wilcott, lawyer and advocate and investigative reporter, Alexis Tereschuk.

Dr. Brian Russell, host of Fatal Vows, you claim one of the major rules in finding a sweetheart or husband, never ever have an affair with a married person. Explain. I say never get anywhere near an affair. Don't have an affair with a married person. Don't be a married person having an affair. Don't be married to a person who has affairs. And the reason is simple. The examples are legion. Anytime there's cheating in a marriage, there's danger for the cheater, the cheatee, the paramour. Cheatees kill cheaters to get vengeance. Cheaters kill cheaties to get freedom without having to give up assets or parenting time. Paramours kill cheaties to free the cheaters. I'm sorry.

All I can think of is Cheetos. Okay. I'm sorry. You can tell I'm on Weight Watchers right now. I'm living off those little bitty tiny oranges with no seeds in them. Okay. Back to cheaties. What did you say, Dr. Russell?

Well, people who are cheated on, cheat, kill cheaters when they find out. Cheaters sometimes kill the cheaties to try to free themselves from the marriage without having to pay anything or lose parenting time in a divorce. Paramours kill spouses of their affair partner sometimes to free up the affair partner from the marriage. There are just way too many dangers involved for you to get anywhere near an extramarital affair in any one of those roles. Well, Alexis Torres-Chuck, investigative reporter with RadarOnline.com, a cheaty and cheetor who end up in a murder scenario, I have to think, of Scott Peterson. What happened to Scott Peterson, Alexis Tereshchuk? Well, Scott Peterson was married to this beautiful woman, Lacey,

and she was pregnant with their baby. He started having an affair. He cheated on her with a woman called Amber Fry, and he lied to Amber. He told her he was not married. Lied to his girlfriend? Wait a minute. What about lying to his wife? Well, he never told her that he was having the affair, so he was lying to his wife. Now, back to his lies with Amber Fry. And believe me, she was not the first, Alexis. Okay? Go ahead.

He started dating Amber. She lived about an hour away from him. They were so, he was so full of it with her that she put him on her christmas card they started dating in november they were so he had convinced her they were so serious about their relationship that she put him on her christmas oh dear lord in heaven try to refrain from that until after at least the first child before putting the guy on your christmas card but wait a minute wait a minute when you say he was so full of it he he was a fertilizer salesman by trade. You know what that is? Okay. He was selling manure, and boy, was he good at it.

So let's take a listen. Cheryl McCollum, I really cannot hear these secretly recorded audio tapes enough. Do you remember when they cracked wide open, Cheryl? Nancy, I remember it. I loved it because he was so full of it. It was unbelievable. But, you know, keep in mind, he was such a con artist that there were things that she missed or just chose to ignore. She had never been to his house. She had never met his family. She had never hung out with his friends. So there were signs that this perfect person,

you know, probably was not being completely open and honest with her. And keep in mind, this is what I tell people all the time. Having an affair equals motive. You're putting yourself at risk. Well, Ashley Wilcott, one of the first things I ask when somebody is telling me about their new boyfriend or prospective husband, I'm like, have you been to his place? Number one question. Have you been to his place? Number one question, have you been to his place? That's exactly it. Because if he doesn't take you home, there's a reason why. All those signs. Exactly. You have to know. Somebody who truly cares about

you and is appropriate not having an extramarital affair is absolutely going to include you in their life. They want you to their life. They want you to come over. They want you to meet friends. They want to meet out for dinner with friends and family. If they're not doing that, I'm sorry. Your gut should say, uh-oh, red flag, red flag. So Dr. Brian Russell, I know you're the lawyer and you're the psychologist and you're the host of the hit show, Investigation Discoveries Fatal Vows, but can you please listen to us? You need to put that on your list. If the person doesn't take you home to their apartment, no matter how humble,

there is no place like home and they don't want you part of their life. To me, that's a big red flag, Dr. Brian. But Dr. Brian, hold on, hold on. Let's listen to the real deal. We're all just hypothesizing. Take a listen to Scott Peterson, who's being secretly recorded as he convinces his lady love that the reason he can't be with her on New Year's Eve is because he's in Paris with his family and he's hooked up with some French friends Jacques and Pierre I mean what a load listen I can hear you

Okay, I'm like, stay still or something. I know, I'm not moving to make it work. How was your New Year's? What's that? How was your New Year's? It's good. I just, I went to the bar now, so I came out of the alley. Quiet alley. Isn't that nice? Yeah, it is. I could hear you. Very good.

It's pretty awesome. Fireworks there. The Eiffel Tower. The people all playing their rock songs. Uh huh. It's pretty funny. Well that's good. I'm glad you guys decided to go out. Oh, definitely. I can never remember your friend's name. I know Jeff, but you always say Franswans. And then we have Tuck Kwa, a friend of ours. Thank you. Yeah, but you always say, oh, farm swans.

And then we have Pasquale, a friend of ours. Oh, he's there too? Pasquale, yeah. Good. Did you make any New Year's resolutions? What was that? Should be. Should be?

What should my New Year's resolution be? What should my year resolution be? Oh, I don't know. That was my question. Oh, I didn't think of that. I'll tell if I'm good. Yeah, you'll have to tell us. So where are you headed? Well, did you get my message? let me just happen to point out alexis teres chuck as he was making this call trying to convince his mistress that he was out

of town on new year's eve and couldn't be with her he was actually preparing to go to the vigil for his then-missing wife, Lacey Peterson, and his unborn child, baby Connor, who he had killed seven days earlier on Christmas Eve and dumped her body in the San Francisco Bay. Let's take another listen to one of the masters of the con, Scott Peterson. We're staying with you over there. Okay. And I'm so sorry that this has happened,

and I'm so sorry I'm going to hurt you in this way. I don't want to do this over the phone. I want to tell you this. I want to be the only person to tell you this. But I'm sure that's why Saki called you. What? I'm sure it's why Saki called you. Why?

Why would Saki? What are you talking about? It's the worst thing. Sorry. I'll just tell you. Okay. You haven't been watching the news, obviously. No.

I have not been traveling during the last couple weeks. I have lied to you that I've been traveling. Okay. The girl I got married to, her name is Lacey. Mm-hmm. She disappeared just before Christmas. Mm-hmm. For the past two weeks, I've been in Modesto with her family and mine,

searching for her. Okay. She just disappeared, and no one knows... now where she's been scott and i i can't tell you more because i need you to be protected from the media and i honor, they are amazing. Scott, are you listening? I am. You came to me earlier in December and told me that you had lost your wife. What was that about?

She's alive. What? She's alive. Where? She's alive. Where? She's alive? Where? In Modesto. Now, I know, I, this is the hardest, I, I want to tell you first, I, it was a, you need

to protect yourself from the media. Okay. Okay. Okay. If you haven't watched the news at all, or you haven't, um, the media has been telling everyone that I had something to do with her disappearance. So the past two weeks I've been hunted by the media. And I just, I don't want you to be involved in this to protect yourself. I know that I, you know, I'm destroyed. And I hope so much that this doesn't hurt you. How could it not affect me?

It does. How can you possibly think that this would not affect me? Amber, I know it does. But I know I had...I've just been towing up the last two weeks wanting to tell you and I'm so weak that I haven't and I just I just hope that I had to call you to tell you that you never you never answered my question Scott you don't you know I can't I can't say anymore I think I deserve you deserve so much better there's no question You deserve so much better. There's no question you deserve so much better.

Third lesson. First of all, look for mental health and stability. Number two, don't get involved in an affair or relationship with a married person. And don't be that married person. But Dr. Brian Russell, your number three is be wary when your partner's first spouse or boyfriend or girlfriend died mysteriously. Doesn't it seem like the most obvious fatal vows lesson in the world, Nancy? If somebody's got a previous partner who is missing from the planet under bizarre circumstances, wanting to get to the bottom of that before you move an inch in the direction of a relationship with that person

ought to be priority number one. If you even want to explore the relationship possibility at all, which would be questionable for me. Yeah, of course, there are people like me, Cheryl. When I met David, my fiance had just been murdered. And I had, as you know, dropped out of college, I couldn't go forward, I couldn't even take a shower or eat or anything. And when I finally did go back to college, it was with the intent to finish up and go to law school to put bad guys behind bars. And I literally, you know, collided with David Lynch. And for the longest time, Cheryl, as I told you, you know, many years ago, I just could not be in love. I don't know. I guess that'd be something for you, Dr. Russell, to figure out.

But, you know, he stuck with me. But long story short, my prior love was dead, had been killed, had been murdered. And I was absolutely damaged goods. There's no doubt about that. So it comes with a mixed bag. If this mysterious circumstances, Dr. Brian Russell is saying, stay away. But you know, it also comes even if it wasn't mysterious, that person has got a lot of problems. You know, I did and do as a result of that crime. Cheryl, remember that? I do, Nancy. And the thing is a little different when you talk about somebody like Drew Peterson or you talk about somebody like Lynn Turner.

The difference is they're the only ones telling the narrative of their story. So the people that they meet only hear their version of what happened to their former loved one. Your story was very public. Everybody knew. There's a record in the courthouse. Everybody in town knew it. Yeah, you know what? You're right, Cheryl McCollum. And you know what? It's not just limited to men. I remember covering a case in my own backyard of Lynn Turner. Okay, she was born Julia Lynn Womackack and she's an american icon in a bad way she had not one but two men kill over first her husband glenn turner he died after being sick with the flu

and then after that it didn't end there two men that ended up dead found out they both died from ethylene glycol, i.e. antifreeze. Take a listen to this. Do you wish to testify? No, sir, I do not testify. Prosecutors say defendant Lynn Turner laced Jell-O with antifreeze and fed it to her husband. Six years later, they say she put antifreeze in iced tea and gave it to her boyfriend, Randy Thompson. There's problems with this case. You want me to convict a woman of murder?

Can you not at least tell me these things? Show me some evidence. So Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute, the second man knew the first man had died of an illness, but he didn't know what. So I would term that mysterious. Oh, no doubt. And, you know, one of the husbands was a firefighter. One was a police officer. She had this thing about heroes and, you know, she cooked for them all the time and supposedly cared for them when they got ill. But again, she didn't want people around. It was only her narrative. All they knew is what she told them. Joining me now is Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst out of Los Angeles. Dr. Bethany, weigh in when you are looking at a prospective

mate and you find out there's a dead body in the background well definitely you should find out if they have a criminal record before you date them right i would i would look at everything especially with all these dating sites out there see if they have a criminal record try to get a sense of their financial history but but a dead body and their background i, is something one should think about because seriously, most people who are. OK, I love the way you put it. I think it's definitely something you should think about. Dr. Brian Russell, hold on.

It's not all that romantic to be running your boyfriend's rap sheet. Well, it's true. It's true. Unfortunately, though, what we know is that in the United States of America, people generally gather more information about others when they're thinking about going into some kind of a business deal with them than when they're thinking about getting married, even though the consequences of marriage and parenting long term are so much more profound than the consequences of getting into a bad business relationship where you might just lose some money. Somebody who has

a literal skeleton in their closet is somebody that you really cannot afford to get yourself involved with for reasons much greater than financial. Ladies, it's come to my attention that Dr. Brian Russell is currently dating someone. Is that true, Dr. Russell? That is true. You're not yet married. Not yet. Not yet.

Which I have grilled you over in the past. But Dr. Russell, could you just be honest? Have you run a rap sheet? I'm taking that as a no. I have not run a rap sheet, but the reason why is because I've given myself plenty of time to get to know this person and look for, you know, if there were. Dr. Russell, just stop right there. Okay. This isn't direct.

This is cross exam. I can cut you off. Dr. Russell, you need to take your own medicine. Okay. After we get off the air, you can just give her name and dob to cheryl mccollum and she can run that immediately cheryl how hard is it to get somebody's rap sheet isn't it like 25 probably about 25 across the country it's real quick and there's a lot of sites you can go to and do it online you don't even have to leave your house see see and and

alexis ashley dr bethany feel free to give me those DOBs. And I can still run your husband's rap sheets for you just in case you were wondering. Okay. You think you know him? Yeah. This is Ashley. I did. I got a just true confession.

And my husband loves you and listens to the show. He's going to know it all now. I did not only do a background check, just do a Google search and you can find out things if there's anything bad. There wasn't, thank God. But I'm just saying it does not take a rocket scientist to look online and figure out if there's any kind of information that should, again, be a red flag. I even did a medical test on my husband. Like I had him do a test. I wanted to make sure I did all of that. Good thinking.

Good thinking. Hey, if they'll love you, they'll let you, they'll let you have a blood test taken. That's exactly. Let me tell you, that's where you're right. People listen to us. We know what we're talking about. We've learned from other people's mistakes. Listen to this.

Special guest, Joe Lopez, defense attorney for Drew Peterson. He delivered the closing argument. The fact that you guys claimed throughout that everybody else was lying, and I'm referring to Kathleen Savio and Stacey Peterson. Why do you say those two ladies were lying? What's in it for them to lie? Well, we have to remember one thing that Kathy was saying whatever she could about Drew to people besides her best friend and the man that she was in love with. She told things to all these other people but never mentioned anything to the man that she just about lived with and to her next door neighbor who she talked to every day. That's absolutely not true Kathleen Savio and of course I'm talking about the ultimate don't get involved with someone when there's a dead body in the

background Drew Peterson his third wife Kathleen Savio told many many people including her sister that she was afraid she ended up dead and drowned dead in a bone-dry bathtub covered with bruises. It was only after her body was exhumed years later, when the fourth wife, Stacey, goes missing, that her death was determined to be a homicide. Alexis Tereschuk, RadarOnline.com, Drew Peterson was in fact a police officer to boot. Stacey Peterson was just a teen when she falls for married Drew

Peterson and they begin a relationship while he's still married to Kathleen Savio until whoopsie, Kathleen ends up dead. And he completely lied to her. So this was even from the very first thing don't date a married guy but they the police didn't eat i guess because he was a police officer when his first third wife first one that was dead was found they said she drowned she was found in an empty bathtub with bruises all over her body yet they called it accidental accidental drowning everybody was protecting this man and these women did speak out,

though. They told so many people. And because her husband was a respected member of law enforcement, they believed him. They were believing his defense attorney who was saying all of this, too. Listen to this. Joining me right now from Chicago is Joel Brodsky. This is the lawyer for accused wife killer Drew Peterson, former cop. Joel Brodsky, is it true that you put Stacey Peterson on the witness list for trial? Well, the witness list has to contain anybody that's a potential witness. If you don't have them on the list and later on they show up, you can't call them. So there's over, we have a lot of people on our witness list. The state has over 250 people on their witness list.

A lot of people that they maybe want to call but probably won't. So witness lists include everybody. Good, Brodsky, up please. Brodsky, you're just giving me a roundabout about why you put Stacey Peterson on the witness list. Because just in case she happens to suddenly appear, you're going to call her to testify to what? Well, I mean, the whole thing, this whole thing started when she disappeared. Everybody presumed that something untoward happened. If she just ran off, all these other presumptions about Drew Peterson kind of disappear into thin air. Really? Like all those cuts and bruises on Kathleen Savio's body, they just disappear into thin air?

Absolutely. Well, you know, we're looking at those, the cuts and bruises, for example, the one in the back of the head, that's what she got when she fell in the bathtub. But the other matters, the other bruises that State talks about were either older bruises. We've had three pathologists, three prominent pathologists examine all the pictures. They were older bruises? So what, he beat her before he killed her? Is that what you're saying? No, because those bruises were taken in the regular course of living and working out and just rolling around and playing with your kids.

Really? Because I don't have any bruises on me, and I've got two four-year-olds, and I attempt to work out. I'm not covered in bruises. I'll bet you if there's an examination, there are bruises. Everybody has some minor bruises. I'm looking right now, and she's absolutely covered head to toe with bruises and lacerations. That's from HLN. Dr. Brian Russell, it really didn't end there.

Dr. Brian Russell, host of Fatal Vows on Investigation Discovery. So on the fourth wife, there's wife one, wife two, wife three, Kathleen Savio, who ends up dead. Wife four, Stacey Peterson, whose body has never been found. But even after that, Brian, he was trying to give other women Stacey Peterson's lingerie and fur coats. I mean, who would, A, who would want to use the lingerie? That goes without saying, but from your missing wife? Well, yeah. And while I completely agree with you, I completely think it's a good idea to do a background check, do a Google search, look at people's,

sometimes just what you can see on social media says a lot about the person. But I have to also add that not always is there a record. People can do lots of sociopathic things that don't result in a criminal record. So that's why I'm always saying you have to spend a good long time with the person and look at things like their, you got to give yourself time to see their level of compassion, their ethics, their morals, their work ethic, their integrity, their reliability. And so you have to give yourself time to see them in lots of

different situations. How do they treat you when you are sick and you need some help? Do they disappear or do they show up? Are they honest? How do they treat waiters and waitresses in restaurants? Are they jerks? Are they kind even if the waitress or waiter screws up? I recently was at a party where I talked to somebody who was a waitress who told me, asked me if I was still in contact with a woman that I had dated several years ago. And I said, no, not really. And she said, well, that's too bad because that woman is coming into my restaurant with a new guy who flashes cash around. But then when it's time to pay, credit card number one sometimes

doesn't go through and we have to use credit card number two. And he's a jerk to us. So he's a jerk. He's a poser. And I'm kind of concerned about her. And I said, well, I am too. And if I were still in contact with her, I'd tell her to beware of this guy. So he may not have a criminal record, but those kinds of things. Okay, wait a minute. So it's a red flag if your card, your credit card's rejected because I'm in big, big trouble. I mean, Cheryl McCollum at Christmas time, and I don't want to give away any secrets in case my twins are listening right now, but I kept having my, I tried to get a Best Buy credit card and I was totally rejected. There was a huge, big, long line. Okay. Then I tried to get a Best Buy credit card and I was totally rejected there was a huge big long line okay then I tried to get a Target credit card to get the you know discount if you

buy x amount you get a 10% discount on the spot I was totally rejected okay I'm starting to wonder why because I work I haven't been late in my bills turns out Cheryl McCollum, about a year ago, my passport got stolen in the post office. Okay. It never made it out of the post office because they found the envelope that it had been in on the post office floor. Okay. So anyway, at that moment, you know, when your passport's stolen, that's bad. So there was a freeze put on all my dear, oh, I almost said dearly departed. Whoopsie. My dear husband followed the advice of whoever he's talking to, and he froze all my accounts so nobody could take out a credit card or anything like that.

And I guess he told me at the time, but I wasn't thinking about it this Christmas until I got turned down for two credit cards. Can I tell you the looks on people's faces behind me? When I get turned, there's a huge long line. Everybody's pissed off. They're running to go home. And I'm trying to get a credit card. But wait a minute, why am I not getting a Target or a Best Buy credit card? And I had to do get a credit card and go, but wait a minute, why am I not getting a Target or a Best Buy credit card? And I had to do the walk of shame and leave the store. So, you know, hold on there about the credit cards getting rejected, Cheryl. Well, the point he made, too, was that he would flash all of this cash as though he was well off.

And that's where the posing comes in with drew peterson he was 47 years old when he shows up to date a 19 year old stacy now i'm gonna tell you something i have a teenage daughter in my house and if a 47 year old man knocked on my door to pick her up for a date. As my father used to say, he'd get off that porch a whole lot quicker than he got on it. Oh, my stars. Okay, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Hold on. Hold on.

Hold your horses. We have time for just one more lesson from Dr. Brian Russell, host of Fatal Vows on Investigation Discovery. Go ahead, rub it in. You're not only a psychologist, you're a lawyer too. Okay, hold on. Let's go with, you've got so many lessons and they're all good, but I think you're right, Dr. Brian. I think that addiction is abusive is a really good one. And, you know, no offense, but let's start with my old buddy, Charlie Sheen. Dr. Brian Russell, I mean, his longtime wife stuck with him, had two children, has adopted a third. They got divorced and there's been one string. There's been a long string of one woman after the next. But according to him,

Charlie Sheen, he has an addiction. Yeah. And you're absolutely right, Nancy. You absolutely do not want to be in a relationship with an addict. In my opinion, it's not a disease and it isn't a please get help situation. It is a you're out of here and you're not coming back at least until you've gotten help and established a sustained, I'm talking long-term pattern of clean, sober, sane, safe, responsible living. People ask me sometimes, well, I'm thinking about dating somebody that's got a history of addiction in their past. How long should they be clean and sober before I think about having a relationship? I tell them 10 years, 10 years of clean and sober living and never, ever, ever start a relationship with somebody while they or you are in rehab. That is one of the worst times. You're going to make some of the worst decisions and they're going to make some of the worst decisions

during that time. Remind me to circle back. I've got a question for you, Dr. Brian Russell. You know, to Dr. Bethany Marshall, joining us, psychoanalyst out of LA. Dr. Bethany, when I think about Denise Richards, she, you know, that was Charlie Sheen's wife. I think he's been married twice. She never trashes him. She, you know, stands. I wouldn't say stands by him, but she's doing her best, I think, to raise those three children to by Sheen. You know, this shows it's not all about looks. Denise Richards was a bond girl for Pete's sake. Yet the husband cheats and is with hookers and and all sorts of bad behavior. So it's not when somebody says, oh, my stars, his wife is beautiful.

Why would he cheat? That has really nothing to do with it, right? It has absolutely nothing to do with it. And, you know, Dr. Brian Russell went through such a nice list of things to look for when you're dating. I like the credit card example. I had that happen many years ago. I dated someone briefly who we went to dinner and one credit card after the other was declined. And I dated him very briefly, but I found out that he had all these businesses that were fake businesses. Like he pretended to be this big

entrepreneur, but nothing in his life was working. I was just about to say, when the man says I'm an entrepreneur, run. Run for the hell. Unless they can tell you exactly what it is they do. Run, run. You don't want to be supporting some man. Hey, Dr. Russell, let me circle back. If you find out the guy has ever, ever used prostitutes, do you think that that's kind of a bad thing? Absolutely, because it says something about the person's character that does not go away. Character, that's why I always say, you know, even if somebody tells you things that make you sad about things they did in their childhood or whatever, if they're things like stealing,

if they're things like intentionally destroying things, things that suggest bad character, that usually does not change. Character pretty much stays the same. How about online cheating? Do you think that's the bad sign, Dr. Brian Russell? It doesn't matter if it's online or in real life. Cheating is cheating is cheating. Dr. Brian Russell, I really hate to go because I'm having so much fun talking about bad guys. That's why I threw in some bad women in there. I don't want the men to feel left out. So where can I find your list? God help me. Please don't put me back on the market. Nobody would be interested in me. But Dr. Brian Russell, where can I find your list? I will put the complete list of all the

lessons learned from five seasons of Fatal Vows on my social media today, Valentine's Day. That's Dr. Brian Russell on Facebook and Twitter. Dr. Brian Russell, I'm just looking at your picture right now. One quick question. Are those your real teeth? They're awesome. I mean, they're perfect. Is that real? They are real. Thank you. That's very nice. I wonder if we should add that to the list. Stay away from men that are too good looking. You certainly don't want a man that's prettier than you, okay? Because that's just bad for your self-image. Okay.

Alexis Tereschuk, Ashley Wilcott, Cheryl McCollum, Dr. Bethany Marshall, and Dr. Brian Russell from Fatal Vows. Happy Valentine's Day. Nancy Grace, Crime crime story signing off and lord thank you for me not having to date right now goodbye friend this is an iheart podcast