Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - SICKO-PERV TEACHER HAS BABY WITH STUDENT, 11

Episode Date: January 21, 2025

A New Jersey teacher is accused of sexually abusing her former 5th grade student for four years, while he and his two siblings lived with her. Laura Caron, now 34, also has a 5-year-old son who police believe was fathered by the victim when he was just 13 years old. Caron’s arrest comes after the victim’s father noticed striking similarities between Caron’s son and his eldest son, now an adult.   Caron, then 26, taught fifth grade at Middle Township Elementary School when she  develops a close relationship with a male student’s mother. The mom knows her two younger children will also come through Caron’s class, and they become fast friends. Caron agrees to babysit for the family as needed, which turns into overnight stays a few times a week. Eventually, the three children, two boys and a girl, live with Caron full time.  All three children share a bedroom on the second floor, but in the morning, the eldest brother’s bed is usually empty. His siblings typically find him on the first floor, coming from Caron’s bedroom. The younger siblings also frequently catch Caron going into the bathroom while their brother showers, then exiting with him, also wet and wearing a towel.   While Caron and the children watch TV before bed, Caron always sits with the eldest 11-year-old boy in a reclining chair. The two younger children usually fall asleep while watching a movie, but one evening, the middle brother, 8, wakes up and notices Caron and his brother shifting around in the reclining chair. The two are covered by a blanket, but he can tell Caron’s hand is moving under the blanket. Three years after inviting her student and his siblings to live with her, Caron gives birth to a baby boy. Caron is very quiet about the baby’s father, claiming he isn’t ready to a dad, but she is grateful for the blessing he gave her. Caron continues to care for the siblings alongside her baby boy.   The three children move out of Caron’s home just after her son’s first birthday, but Caron still stays in close contact with the family, their daughter, the last to enter fifth grade.     The boy’s mother is scrolling through Facebook when she comes across a photo of Laura Caron’s son, who’s now 5 years old. She shows the photo to her husband, who comments that the boy looks strikingly similar to their eldest son. He admits he fathered Caron’s baby, but he begs her to let it go because he doesn’t want Caron to get in trouble.    The boy’s father takes to Facebook, commenting on Caron’s photo that her kindergartener looks a lot like his son, who was just 13 when the baby was born. Middle Township Superintendent Dr. David Salvo gets wind of the post and goes straight to the police, reporting a teacher may have had an inappropriate relationship with a student.    Middle Township police begin investigating the superintendent’s claims, and interview Caron’s alleged victim, now an adult. The boy comes clean with police, telling them Caron instigated a sexual relationship with him in 2016, shortly after he and his siblings moved into her home. The boy says he did father Caron’s baby, and their relationship continued physically until the siblings moved out in 2020, but that he had kept in contact with her until his family discovered the truth.     Laura Caron, 34,  arrested outside her Cape May Court House home just over a week after her victim’s damning interview, charged with sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, and endangering a minor by sexual conduct. Caron now held at the Cape May County Correctional Facility. Joining Nancy Grace today:  Mark Tate  -  Trial Lawyer-  TateLawGroup.com  Dr. John Delatorre - Licensed psychologist and mediator, specializing in forensic psychology, psychological consultant to Project Absentis: a non profit organization that searches for missing persons, resolutionfcs.com, Twitter, IG, and TikTok - @drjohndelatorre Ron Bateman - Fmr. Sheriff for Anne Arundel County, Maryland - Former Homicide and undercover narcotics detective. Ronbatemanbooks.com, Author of crime trilogy "Silent Blue Tears,"  Twitter: Ronbatemanbooks Anna Sonoda - Child sex abuse/grooming expert/Clinical Social Worker/Counsels convicted sex offenders,  Author, Duck Duck Groom Dave Mack - Crime Online investigative reporter    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A sicko perv fifth grade teacher, 34, has a baby with her boy student age 11. Whoa, wait, a 34 year old woman has a sex relationship. That's called right. That's not a relationship with an 11 year old boy that is in her class in the fifth grade. I still remember my fifth grade teacher, Katie Amerson, one of the best teachers I ever had. That's my happy memory. This 11 year old boy fathers a baby with his 34 year old fifth grade teacher. Okay. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Fifth grade teacher, Laura Caron sparks a close friendship with the mom of one of her students,

but things unravel when a Facebook post reveals a bombshell secret. Okay, a bombshell secret. How is that a secret when you carry a baby nine months and give birth? Let's just start at the beginning. Listen. Laura Caron, 26, has been teaching fifth grade at Middletownship Elementary School for just over two years when she begins to develop a close relationship with her male student's mother. The mom knows her two younger children will also come through Karen's class, and they become fast friends.

With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we are learning right now. But first, I want to go straight out to renowned psychologist Dr. John Delatore. Before I get into the facts, I think I need to shrink on this. A 34 year old female teacher. A lot of people want to say has sex with an 11 year old student when that teacher is a female. That's statutory rape. Okay. Let's don't say had sex with Dr. Deletory. I don't get it. I don't understand it. A it's a crime, but B this didn't just happen one time. According to reports, this went on for years and what nobody noticed the teacher was pregnant

for Pete's sake. I don't understand how that can happen under the noses of the school. I don't understand how that can happen under the noses of the school. I don't understand how that can happen and nobody figures it out. And the attraction, let's start with the attraction. I don't, I don't understand that. Yeah. So I think when we're looking at the age of the victim in this case, we're potentially looking at a possible diagnosis of pedophilic disorder. Now with pedophilic disorder, we're dealing with individuals who will cross sexual boundaries or offend against children typically 13 years or younger

over the course of six months or longer. It's clear that that's obviously what happened. I mean, she ended up getting pregnant by the victim in this case. You're absolutely right, Nancy. We can't use the word had sex with because that applies some level of consent. There's no consent when the victim in the case is 11 years old. It doesn't matter if it's a boy or a girl. It does not matter. This woman offended against this child. This child is a victim. This child is going to suffer. Deletory, deletory, deletory. Control room, can you please show me Karen's photo again? Okay, I want Delatory to look at her. This is the question I'm seeing online. She's young. She's pretty. She's fit.

Look at her. There are no men her age. She has to prey on an 11 year old boy. What, what is her problem? And when you say some kind of pedophilic, what did you say? A pedophilic what? Pedophilic disorder. Pedophilic disorder. This is not a disorder. Why are you saying that? Because see, I think you're stirring the pot. You're, you're putting fuel to the flame, Delatory. This is a crime. You're acting like it's an illness, a disorder. Well, here's the thing is that I'm not a lawyer, right? I'm not a judge. I'm not a cop. My job as a psychologist is to explain what exactly it is that's going on. We as psychologists, especially me as someone who's treated sex offenders before, see this as a disorder. We see this as something that can be treated, but has underlying pathology, underlying psychological issues. Are there men

her age? Of course there are. Are there single men her age? Of course there are. But she convinced herself that she was having a relationship with this 11-year-old. In her mind, she believed what she was doing was wrong. That's disordered thinking, Nancy. That's where a psychologist comes in, right? Yes, it's a crime. Of course it's crime. It's always going to be a crime, but some things need to be treated. Some things need to kind of understand from a psychological perspective in order to prevent it from happening again. Okay. You know what? It was my fault for asking you the question. I can't blame you. I blame myself because I asked you why. And frankly, why does it matter? It took me five

years prosecuting violent felonies to stop looking over at the defendant in the middle of court, thinking, why would you cause this wake of pain, leaving it behind you because of what you did? Why does it matter matter and when you say treatment I hope she can get treatment behind bars and I think I know someone's gonna disagree with you Anna Sunoda joining me she is an expert in child sex abuse she's a grooming expert a clinical social worker she also counsels convicted sex offenders I would not want to spend my day doing that. And she's the author of Duck Groom.

Help me out, Anna Sonoda. I hear Del Latorre from his point of view talking about treatment. To hell with treatment. She needs to be behind bars for a really long time. I don't know who's going to raise this baby she gave birth to. The father, an 11-year-old student. Nancy, you mentioned before the most important part, which is not why they do it, it's how they do it. Your audience needs to recognize that grooming took place and that

predators often groom the parents or the caregivers of their identified target in advance or alongside the child they're grooming. In this case, we see that she had access through her role as a teacher and she developed a close relationship with the child's mother. This set this young, poor victim up for failure from the get-go. Ron Bateman joining me, former homicide undercover narcotics. He's at ronbatemanbooks.com, author of a crime trilogy. Ron Bateman, you know former homicide undercover narcotics. He's at Ron Bateman books dot com, author of a crime trilogy. Ron Bateman, you know, we're hearing a lot about treatment and counseling for this woman. I'm not quite sure you and I are on the same page. Please respond. Oh, my God. We are definitely on the same page. Treatment. Yeah. Like you said, treatment behind bars.

But, you know, as a cop, the first thing I think of, is this the first time? You think this is the first kid 11 years old that she's ever touched? I highly doubt it. This is just the first one she's been caught on. And you know what? I think about the long-term effect it's going to be on this poor child. Can you see him now? Hey, daddy, how did you and mommy meet? Oh, she was my fifth grade teacher. Really? Give me a break. a female sex predator preying on children, specifically their students. Mary Kay Letourneau, listen. I did something that I had no right to do morally or legally. It was wrong. And I am sorry. That's Mary Kay Letourneau in court after she gives birth to a baby by her student, V.E. That's from our friends at NBC. Listen. Steve Letourneau finds love letters written by his pregnant wife, but they aren't to him. The letters are for one of

Mary Kay Letourneau's students, a 12-year-old boy she's been tutoring since he was eight. It turns out Letourneau's pregnancy is a result of a sexual relationship with the boy. Letourneau is sentenced to three months in prison as part of a plea agreement. But after her release, Letourneau's caught having sex with the student again. Letourneau's agreement is revoked and she gives birth to the boy's second child eight months into her seven year sentence. So she gets out on a light sentence because she is an attractive female. She gets a slap on the wrist. She gets out after a few more months.

And what does she do? Immediately violate the judge's order. And she is caught in a steamed up vehicle in the middle of the night with the boy student back in the car. Okay. Yeah. Her. This hit the news in a big way. Joining me is Mark Tate, a veteran trial lawyer out of the Savannah jurisdiction with the Tate Law Group. Mark, I mean, wouldn't you counsel your client? Listen, can you just stay away from the little boy? You've gotten out in three months. Stay away from him.

Go have sex with somebody else. And I'd like to point out that I heard CrimeOnline.com reporter Holden Zappel referring to it as sex. It's not. It's rape. It is statutory rape. Think about it, Mark Tate. And this is what I'm sure you've seen many prosecutors do with juries. I'm sure you've done it in civil cases where you say, what if this boy, because V. Filau was six feet at least. What if this boy was an 11 year old girl? Think about it. Think about that. And sometimes you have to do that. I think the gender of the victim really, in this instance, I don't think that it helps. I don't

think it hurts her. She's going to jail. What she did is indefensible in terms of her guilt. The only way to deal with what this lady, Ms. Karan or Karan did, I think most likely is going to be focusing on what the sentencing is going to be. And I know that many people are heavily in favor, you included, Nancy, in incarceration. And that's going to be a way to stop or prevent her or even others perhaps from doing it. But incarcerating this lady for a lengthy period of time only means she's going to get out and be a hardened, possibly smarter, more dangerous predator. And so to some extent, I agree with Mr. or Dr. De La Torre that she's going to have to while in prison, which I certainly deserved here, she's going to have to get some kind of counseling or she's going to run out of money to hire lawyers and she's not going to have any uh hope of really recovering and we're not going to have hope really as a society certainly not in new jersey why are you talking

about her recovering well we don't want her to get loose and go out and keep doing this we got to stop no i don't want her to get loose period you can in the sentence right there tate i don't want her to get a license if she were a, she would get 20 to life, hard time. Well, she's not going to get 20 to life. She's facing 10 to 20. So we've got to deal with not what Nancy Grace's justice is. We've got to deal with what's going to happen in New Jersey. And she's going to eventually be free.

And when we let her go, we need to make sure she's not getting predicated. Just because it's happening in New Jersey, just because it's happening, just because it's being done, doesn't mean it should be done. Ron Bateman, the disparity between female and male sentences in sex crimes is astonishing. And did you just hear him, Mark Tate, talking about getting her treatment? Treatment? Yeah. And he's right. She is going to get out and it's not going to be in a maximum sentence is 20. OK. And she's going to get good time. Hopefully she'll get treatment inside. But she's going to have to be monitored so closely like a dog in a cage to keep her from doing this again. It began with one or two nights a week.

What started as an innocent enough sleepover at teacher Laura Karen's home soon spiraled into every parent's worst nightmare. Okay, wait a minute, a sleepover? Wait, joining me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we're learning right now. In addition to Mark Tate, Dr. John Delatore, Ron Bateman, Anna Sunoda,

joining me now, CrimeOnline. John Delatore, Ron Bateman, Anna Sunoda, joining me now, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, Dave Mack. So Dave Mack, I want you to explain to me, so the parents let the children sleep over at the teacher's house. Apparently. Now, Nancy, this is ultimately a grooming thing that took place. This fifth grade teacher began her relationship with the mother. That's how she developed because she knew that the mom has three children and all three will be coming through her class as a fifth grade teacher. So she gets the oldest one and that's where she begins the relationship with the mom. Knowing and mom knowing that she's going to be my fifth grade teacher for my two other children. They begin that relationship and all of a, the fifth grade teacher begins babysitting.

Hey, it's convenient. We know her. We trust her. So she she makes a great babysitter. And that's where it all started. OK, Dave Mack, isn't it true that you have a son? Yes, ma'am. OK, I would not allow it.

No. Do you remember when he was do you remember when he was 11? Yep. OK, can I tell you something? I had the greatest it. No. Do you remember when he was? Do you remember when he was 11? Yep. Okay. Can I tell you something? I had the greatest fifth grade teacher. She wasn't the only one at our public school out in the middle of rural Bibb County. Dr. John H. Hurd Elementary School. Miss Amason.

And of course, my kindergarten, first grade, second grade, third grade, fifth grade, and more teachers all sat behind our family at the Liberty United Methodist Church on Sunday mornings too. All right. It was very close knit. Okay. They were sitting right there behind me on Sunday mornings with my family. That said, I get it because knowing those teachers, Dave Mack, and how wonderful they were, they taught not only me, my sister and my brother, but my mother.

OK, they taught my mother in elementary school. We knew them forever. And yes, yes, I could see them babysitting for us and not thinking about it twice. So I get it. But you were talking about the grooming process, how the grooming started with the mother. The teacher got to be friends with the mother, right? Right. That's exactly what happened.

Okay, hold on. I'm glad you told me that. Wait a second, because I want to take that one tidbit and go out to Anna Sonoda joining us, author of Duck, Duck Groom. Anna Sonoda, I get that part. I get it because if my mom had hired a babysitter, which we couldn't have because we couldn't afford it, but that said, if we had a babysitter, I could see any of the teachers I just referred to, first, second, third, fourth, fifth, and beyond as being the babysitter, I could see any of the teachers I just referred to, first, second, third, fourth, fifth, and beyond as being the babysitter. They were that trusted and that close to our family. You're absolutely right. Over 90% of the time, the victims are victimized by someone known and

trusted, not just to the child themselves, but to the caregivers. And this case highlights the fact that when predators are positioned in environments close to minors with access and space, predators will take advantage of that every time. Here you have a teacher who's well positioned in the school system. She has gained respect. relationship with the child and the child's mother and exploited and charged upon that trust in order to get what she wanted, which was a sexual abuse situation with the child. This is an appalling abuse of power. And every listener needs to recognize that they are vulnerable as the adults when it comes to protecting their child from potential predators, even in trusting environments such as school.

Guys, we were talking about a 34-year-old teacher giving birth to the baby of an 11-year-old fifth grade student. The teacher has started babysitting for the family and that graduated into sleepovers of the siblings when they would be babysat by this teacher could spend the night. Listen, the younger siblings notice strange behavior from Karen and their 11 year old brother. In the morning, the eldest brother's bed is usually empty. His siblings typically find him on the first floor coming from Karen's bedroom. The younger siblings also frequently catch Karen going into the bathroom while their brother showers, then exiting with him, also wet and wearing a towel. Okay, so let me understand. Dave Mack joining us, crimeonline.com. Not only the 11-year-old boy,

but the siblings would all spend the night occasionally with the fifth grade teacher? Yep. And, you know, think about it, Nancy, wouldn't that allay just, it would make you not worry as much because all three of my kids are over there. They're all safe. They're with their teacher, but she played it out right in front of them. The kids knew something was going on. She didn't hide it. I mean, they would all go to bed upstairs in a bedroom. Dave Mack, isn't the 11 year old boy, is he the oldest of the three siblings? Yes, he is. Okay. So a lot of times you see things as a child and you don't understand that they're wrong, right?

So the younger siblings who are under 11 may have seen the teacher going in and out of the bathroom when the 11-year-old was in the bathroom and didn't realize anything was wrong to Dr. John Delatore joining me, renowned psychologist. You may first ask, well, why didn't they tell their parents? They may not have realized there was anything to tell the parents. Yeah, you're exactly right, Nancy. What they know is that something is different, but they don't know something is wrong. And depending on how their parents presented sexual behaviors and what is bad touch and what is good touch, what authority is, what trust is, depending on that, they may not be sophisticated enough to know that their brother is being abused. And the brother doesn't know any different, right? The oldest of them just thinks that he's getting all of this special attention. She wants everybody to believe that everything is happening is OK, that nothing is going wrong by not calling attention to stuff, by making sure everybody's there, all the children

are there together. She's kind of making sure that no suspicion is brought upon her, that she's actually engaging in criminal acts. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. South Jersey fifth grade teacher Laura Karen is accused of sexually abusing her student for four years. But the horrors don't stop there. Authorities allege the 13-year-old victim is the father of Karen's five-year-old son. Well, there's your evidence. All you need is a DNA test on the baby boy. And let me just tell you, the family noticed first, without any DNA test, that the little baby looked like the boy had, the 11-year-old boy, had spit him out. He looked just like the 11 year old boy. The similarity was

overwhelming. Guys, in our digital age, the possibility for teachers to prey on their students has skyrocketed exponentially. I'm talking about a teacher, Pamela Rogers, who raped her student. Listen. I betrayed my profession, and that is something that I'm truly ashamed of. And I betrayed the family of the victim. Pamela Rogers, a PE teacher and coach at Centertown Elementary, happens to have a close friend's 13-year-old son in her class. When Rogers falls between places, the mom allows Rogers to stay with her for a few months. Centertown Elementary happens to have a close friend's 13-year-old son in her class.

When Rogers falls between places, the mom allows Rogers to stay with her for a few months. During the stay, she finds her son in bed with Rogers. Rogers spends nine months in jail and on her release, strikes up her relationship with the boy again, sending him provocative and even nude photos and videos using her father's cell phone. Oh, my stars, it's Mary Kay Letourneau all over again. The mom gives Pamela Rogers a place to crash for a few weeks, finds Pamela Rogers, the teacher, in bed with her son. Pamela Rogers goes to jail, and what does she do? The minute she gets out, after a few months, ouch, ouch, behind bars, she's back at it, preying on a little boy. Now it doesn't just end there. You heard that Pamela Rogers would send videos. Look at this video. Brace yourself. This is okay. Here she's slinking

up the camera. Oh, it, this is to a little boy, a 13, just turned 13 year old little boy. And trust me, I've cut this video. I have cut a lot of it out because she turns around and gives a serious booty shot show after this. Okay. Control room seen enough of Pamela Rogers shimmying up the camera. Joining me, Anna Sunoda, child sex abuse and grooming expert, author of Duck, Duck, Groom. Anna, did you see the video? How can the parents know, unless they come through the child's phone every night,

that the teacher of all people is sending these videos? Nancy, the thing about predators is that they are everywhere, but they're not everyone and they stand out in their strange behavior. You know, we used to hear the term stranger danger. I want your audience to remember strange behavior. These teachers are clear examples of distorted, sick women who are showing and displaying repeatedly strange behavior after strange behavior. And in this situation, you have a keen audience because you have a classroom of vulnerable students. And predators are selective.

They hand-select the families and the children to groom in order to be successful in their abuse. And these cases are devastating for the male victims. You know, Delatori, this teacher, she looks like she should be on a stripper pole at the gold club, whatever. Dr. Delatori, she made that video with a little boy in mind. It's not like she was putting it on her OnlyFans website for grown men.

That was made specifically for a little boy. At what point, and I'm going to follow up with criminal defense attorney Mark Tate, at what point when you're doing something wrong, do you not go, hey, this is wrong? Do criminals not, when I even tell a lie, I feel hot all over. I'm convinced I'm going to be caught, which I always am. I feel bad about it. Does that not kick in with criminals? I mean, she's making this video and it's specifically expressly made to send a little boy who's just turned 13. At what point do you go, hey, I should probably put some clothes on and not send this video. They did it early, very early on, potentially even before they even decided to engage in a contact abuse, right? Where they put some clothes on and not send this video. They did it early, very early on, potentially

even before they even decided to engage in a contact abuse, right, where they actually decided to touch the victim. But that was overridden by the compulsion to want to abuse the victim. It was overridden by the justifications and rationalizations that they tell themselves, that they tell other people. Right. We see all these videos of them, you know, with Mary Kayla Turnow and Pamela Rogers apologizing while they're in court. They're only sorry that they got caught. If they were actually sorry, then they never would have done it in the beginning. So everything is about their own compulsion and satisfying their own needs, that it overrides the guilty feelings that every other one of us who wouldn't do this would be experiencing. Anna Sonoda, it seems to me we're talking a lot tonight about treatment and making the rapist

get better. I mean, have I lost my mind? What about the boy? You haven't lost your mind, Nancy. I think our focus needs to be on this young victim, not to mention he is a victim here, but also this five-year-old baby who was born out of a rape. Now this is going to be something that he will have to come to terms with as he grows and develops. You've got two very severely damaged young boys in this situation, and it can be a lifelong recovery for victims and survivors of child sexual abuse. But it certainly improves outcomes when there are consequences for predators. And too often with female offenders, we just write it off and we say, oh, she's not that harmful. She's not that much of a concern to society. And in fact, she is. Well, wait a minute, Anna. Anna, just to note, I think that there are other victims. Listen to this, Anna.

While Karen and the children watch TV before bed, Karen always sits with the eldest 11-year-old boy in a reclining chair. The two younger children usually fall asleep while watching a movie. But one evening, the middle brother, 8, wakes up and notices Karen and his brother shifting around in the reclining chair. The two are covered by a blanket, but he can tell Karen's hand is moving under the blanket on his brother's genitals. Anna Sonoda, you were mentioning victims. What about the siblings of this boy that were there when all of this was happening?

Anna, could you describe how this affects a child, even a boy, for the rest of their lives, Anna? I think one of the ways that we can improve outcomes is from A, acknowledging that when female predators abuse young male victims, it is the exact same damage as if the genders were reversed. What we have in society is allowing female predators to quote-unquote educate young boys about sex and intimacy, and that stance does not facilitate recovery and growth for victims. First of all, we need to be glad that in this case, it was even reported. We had to wait for a baby to turn five before we even acknowledged that this abuse was going on. What we have to keep in mind is that males who are victimized in their youth rarely report it. Female predators rarely get charged or convicted. If they are convicted, they get reduced sentences at enormous rates. And it perverses sexual relationships for the adult survivors as they go through their relationships.

So this is an enormous problem that we all must acknowledge. And to even take that first step of awareness that females can be predators. We often think of females as the safe gender, the safe sex. Well, these cases, Nancy, highlight the fact that parents need to be on guard for signs of grooming. And then if they recognize any of those. What would that be? And what do you mean by signs of grooming? There are four stages of grooming, Nancy. Flattery, favoritism, forbidden fruits, and fear. These predators are selective and intentional. The grooming process is incremental. I think we

need to highlight that grooming is going on. And when it does, it's observable. The boy's mother is scrolling through Facebook when she comes across a photo of Laura Karen's son, who's now five years old. She shows the photo to her husband, who comments that the boy looks strikingly similar to their oldest son. Their daughter's reaction to that comment sparks an interrogation, and she gives them enough information to immediately call their son. With his mom, he admits he fathered Karen's baby, but he begs her to let it go because he doesn't want Karen to get in trouble. So let me understand. Dave Mack joining us, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Scrolling through Facebook, the mother spots the baby's picture and says, that is uncanny.

It looks just like our son. Tell me that's how the case got cracked open. The similarity was so uncanny. She showed it to her husband, the boy's father, and said, take a look at this. He looks at it and posts on Facebook and just says, there's no way this is my DNA. This is my son's shot. You know, he went public with it right then. And that's when everything happened. I mean, it was amazing how quick it all went up when he posted that on Facebook, Nancy. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Dave Mack, is it true that the boys, the victim, the 11-year-old boy, allowed all the siblings to move in with the teacher? It started as her babysitting, then occasional sleepovers, to the point they let the children all move in with the teacher?

Yes. We don't know the reason why. We don't know what happened. That hasn't been public yet. But we do know that for a period of time, the parents allowed all three children to live and be under the care of this so-called teacher. She was considered like a foster parent. I think in New Jersey, they have a different term. They don't use foster parent. They call them a resource family parent or something along those lines. And yeah, that's exactly what was happening. They spent years with this woman in her care without mom and dad. I don't know where mom and dad were or what was going on. Yeah, they're referred to as a resource family parent. That's what a foster parent is called. And that's how she was treated as this went forward. No idea why yet. Oh, this is And that's how she was treated as this went forward.

No idea why yet. Oh, this is like carting your children off. Sure. Keep them. OK. It's bringing to mind another who many people believe is a beautiful young teacher. When I look at her, I just say Beelzebub, the devil's henchperson. I'm talking about Deborah LaFave. Listen. A 14-year-old Florida boy takes his obviously older girlfriend to visit his cousin. I'm talking about Debra LeFave's attorney, John Fitzgibbons, says in court, to place Debbie into a federal state woman's penitentiary, to place an attractive young woman in that kind of hellhole is like putting a piece of raw meat in with the lions. LaFave is sentenced to just three years of house arrest and lifetime registration as a sex offender. So why do you think you got all the attention? I don't know. I'll say it. Do you think it's because you're pretty? I think so.

And sex sells. I don't know if you call being sentenced for child sex abuse is attention. That's my friends at NBC. So let me understand something, Dave Mack, in the case of Deb LaFave, the attorney said to the court, she's too pretty for jail and she got house arrest. Yep. That's basically what her attorney was, Fitz Gibbons. That was his argument to the court. She's just too pretty. It'll just be horrible for her. It won't be fair. And that was the argument. She's too pretty for prison. We all talked about it forever because that's the most ridiculous argument of all time. But it worked.

Mark Tate, high profile lawyer joining us out of Savannah jurisdiction. Have you ever actually used a similar argument? Too delicate, too fragile, too pretty to whatever for prison? Nothing like that. Remember, Nancy, that a lot of my civil cases focus on priests, Boy Scout sex abuse cases. I've even represented the parents of children who got molested on airplanes. And so while I do criminal defense work, I don't really see a whole lot of sympathy for perpetrators like this particular lady we're talking about, because a predator is a predator. And when we turn them loose, as will happen, if we don't take out that predilection that they have to hurt people in the future, it's going to continue. I've seen it with priests. I've seen it with Boy Scouts. I've seen it with all different sorts of professions, including psychiatrists and medical doctors. If they're not taken out and shown how and not, you know,

not be permitted in these kinds of situations, they're a problem forever. But I'll promise you that what we're going to find with every single one of these people, if we dig deeply into it, and I think Dr. Della Torre would agree is they always are going to find why it's someone else's fault. But I think that, you know, we're going to see that common thread through all of these predators. And, you know, the lifetime monitoring that happens, that may be what's necessary for the teacher Quran. I am just blown away by the fact that teachers are able to get this close to students. And in this particular instance, I find it interesting that she managed to get through

the foster care system as well. As Karen's son gets older, the younger siblings grow even more suspicious that their brother is the toddler's father. Over text, the boy's sister confronts him about his relationship with Karen and point blank asks her brother if the baby is his. Her brother admits that yes, he is the child's father, but he convinces his sister not to tell anyone about it, fearing both him and Karen would get in trouble. Early in this school year, parents met with police reporting their child had been sexually assaulted by McCommon. The now 16-year-old student said he was 12 years old at the time and in seventh grade. The assault happened in the McCommon home. He says sometime in the night, the teacher woke him and sexually assaulted him. Multiple juveniles have now come forward claiming McCommon played video games with them online, befriending them.

The contact progressed to communication through social media apps, where the teacher reportedly sent inappropriate photos and asked for sex, according to police. Okay, we're talking about Alyssa McCommon, another teacher that rapes the student. Now, catch this. After she has the baby, this is what she says to the then 12-year-old boy. Listen. And just forget we ever talked, okay? I'll be this baby, and I love this baby, and I'll do it for myself. Okay, joining me, Ron Bateman, former homicide undercover cop.

You can find me at Ron Bateman Books. Ron, do you hear the teacher trying to put the 12-year-old boy on a guilt trip? What does she want him to do, go get a construction job to support their baby? Exactly. You know, like the gentleman said earlier, and he didn't use this word, but, you know, and you can tell me as a prosecutor, how many narcissists actually plead guilty, take responsibility. And this last victim, I mean, this last suspect you're talking about, same thing, trying to shift the blame on the victim,

which is unbelievable. I mean, think about it, Ron Bateman. She statutory rapes, what is he, 12-year-old boy repeatedly over and over, gets pregnant, has the baby, and then calls to say, I'll raise the baby, and I'll love the baby, and I'll do it by myself. What does she want the 12-year-old boy to do? Exactly. Pay child support? And if this really gets my goat here, you know, no one's talking about the 800 pound elephant in the room. And that's the parents who literally abandoned their responsibility as parents, in my opinion, like it's like a car, like I'm done with this car and here you can have it. And that's what they did with Karen. Here you go, Karen, Ms. Karen, you know, you raised my children. We're done with them for now. We, you know, we need a break. And as parents, you know, we don't get breaks. You know, you got

to raise these kids forever, you know, at least until they're adults. And that's not what happened. And I got a chief super from the Middletown Township Police. He put out a quote, and I think there should be a comma and another continuation of this quote. His quote was, I want to personally assure the parents of Middletown, of Middletownship, that we are taking every step possible to ensure the safety of our children. Then it should be comma and parents, you should do the same. Which in this case, to me, was just just a total abandonment of parental responsibility. You know, I've been wondering how these children end up living full time with the teacher. It started with her babysitting, then it ended up they'd stay a few nights a week over there, and then ultimately moving in. And I'm wondering about

all the other teachers that we have shown. How was it that the children, the boy children, could spend so much alone time with the teacher and the parents never know anything about it? To Dr. John De La Torre, a renowned psychologist joining us, Dr. De La Torre, I'm just curious if you could explain what grooming is so parents that don't know, innocent parents that don't know, can't recognize grooming when they see it. What is it? For instance, when my son plays video games, he plays with a group of his friends. And I have a rule, and that is you cannot play online with anybody you don't know in real life that you haven't met that you don't know. But if I see a teacher sliding into that Fortnite game, oh yeah, all hell's going to break loose. Yeah. So grooming is the process by which someone breaks down the psychological barriers that would prevent a victimizer from victimizing that individual. They do this different kinds of ways, you know,

typically flattery, making statements about how smart the person is or how attractive the person is. Even when they know that that is a child, they will still make statements like this. They will still adulter, right? They will still make the child victim somewhat of an adult. They will kind of in their mind, raise the age because then that puts a spotlight on the child and children want to feel appreciated. They want to have a connection. They want to have that spotlight. So offenders use that for nefarious purposes and they'll do it with everybody, especially with the parents. They have to assuage the fears of the parents by making it so that, you know, that they're there as a comfort, that the victimizer is there as a comfort, breaking down

those psychological barriers so that the parent doesn't think that anything bad would be happening. And that's the trick. That's the scam that offenders are doing, making people believe that nothing is happening. If you know or think you know anything about this case, there is a detainment hearing about to go down. Please contact the Special Victims Unit 609-465-1135. Repeat, 609-465-1135. Are there other child victims? We remember now an American hero, Officer Michael Maxheimer, Shannon Hills PD, Arkansas,

killed in the line of duty. Served Shannon Hills PD three years, leaving behind his daughters, Brooklyn Dorothy and Jalinda, and life partner Claudia. American hero, Dorothy and Jalinda and life partner Claudia American hero Michael Maxheimer Nancy Grace signing off Goodbye friend

This is an iHeart Podcast