Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Slay Suspect Bryan Kohberger Spies on Female Colleague Thru Digicam?

Episode Date: May 22, 2023

Today’s arraignment for Bryan Kohberger will be the first time the accused killer has been in court since his initial appearance after his arrest. Kohberger was indicted last week as a grand jury found there was sufficient evidence to move forward with formal charges. That evidence will not be revealed at this hearing.  Kohberger will be required to enter a plea on the 5 charges against him,  four counts of first-degree murder and one count of burglary. During the arraignment, the judge will reiterate Kohberger’s rights and read the charges against him, asking for a plea on each charge. In Idaho, there are only two pleas,  guilty or not guilty, and a date for trial will be set. If Kohberger refuses to enter a plea or fails to appear, the court will enter a not-guilty plea on his behalf. Kohberger’s attorney has repeatedly said his client looks forward to clearing his name.  New information has been uncovered in the days before the arraignment. Bryan Kohberger was involved in another crime that happened before the student murders. This incident reportedly involved a female co-worker at Washington State University, according to a Dateline Report. Someone allegedly broke into the woman's apartment and moved things around. Instead of calling police, the co-worker called Kohberger, who suggested and helped her, install security cameras. The report says Kohberger was behind that break-in and used those cameras to spy on her. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Tara Malek - Bosie, ID Attorney and Co-owner of Smith + Malek, Former State and Federal Prosecutor; Twitter: @smith_malek  Dr. Joni Johnston - Forensic psychologist and private investigator (performs risk and threat assessments on violent offenders); Author: “Serial Killers: 101 Questions True Crime Fans Ask” Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective, and Host of YouTube Channel, "The Interview Room" Bill Daly - Former FBI Investigator and Forensic Photography; Security Expert  Dr. Jan Gorniak - Medical Examiner, Clark County Office of the Coroner/Medical Examiner (Las Vegas, NV), Board Certified Forensic Pathologist   Nicole Partin - CrimeOnline.com Investigative Reporter; Twitter: @nicolepartin (Naples, FL)  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. In just moments, we expect Brian Koberger charged in the murders, the brutal murders, of four beautiful University of Idaho students, will be in a court of law to enter a plea. Why? Because in the last days, a grand jury, a secret grand jury has met and handed down a true bill, indictments. But that's not enough for Brian Koberger. Because in the last days, we also learned that Brian Koberger, remember the Ph.D., the doctoral student in criminal justice apparently

installed surveillance video cameras in a female colleague's home that he could tap into any time he wanted. Let me throw a technical legal term at you. Perv'm nancy grace this is crime stories thank you for being with us here at fox nation and sirius xm 111 first of all take a listen to our friends at krem so i just got off the phone with the latah county district court clerk's office they told me a grand jury indicted b Koberger on all counts.

That means the grand jury found there was enough evidence in the case for it to go to trial. Now, Koberger will have his arraignment on Monday at 9 o'clock in the morning. That is where he will likely enter his plea of either guilty or not guilty. This grand jury process replaces the preliminary hearing process that was scheduled for the end of June. That's what we know right now and more from our friends at ABC. Just hours away from Brian Kohlberger's official arraignment for the murders of Kaylee Gonsalves, Madison Mogan, Zanna Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin, the 28-year-old suspect facing four counts of murder in the first degree after his indictment by a Latah County grand jury.

Right now, although we seem to have mounting evidence against Mr. Kohlberger, it's still anyone's game because there's a lot of information that the defense is going to hold and not release to the public. Kohlberger is expected to plead not guilty. Authorities allege Kohlberger orchestrated and carried out the deadly attack and then returned to work pursuing his PhD in criminology before making a cross-country trip home to Pennsylvania with his father. A lot of evidence the defense is going to withhold and keep private. What does the defense have in their back pocket? Any more women with surveillance cameras in their bathroom, in their den, in their kitchen, in their bedroom. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now. First of all, I want to go out to Tara Malik out of Idaho, the jurisdiction where Koberger

is about to be arraigned, a former state federal prosecutor. And you can find Tara at smithmalik.com. Tara, thank you for being with us. An arraignment. It sounds confusing. It's not. The defendant is brought over from jail. If they are on bond, they get a summons and they come to court or else they're in bond forfeiture and they are taken to a podium. Their attorneys are with them and they are read their formal charges and at that time they enter a plea of

guilty or not guilty if they won't speak their lawyer can enter the plea for them and if they refuse to do that then the judge will enter a not guilty plea on their behalf what do you expect at the arraignment you're a veteran trial lawyer what Tara? Well, I think we are going to see a very boring process, most likely. He's going to show up with his attorney, Ann Taylor. He'll enter a guilty or not guilty plea. You know, he may have some interesting body language. It'll be interesting to see if he has any facial expressions during the hearing, but it'll be rather straightforward, like you said, Nancy.

You know, Chris McDonough joining me, director of the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective, host of The Interview Room, and you can find him at thecoldcasefoundation.org. Chris, thank you for being with us. I have not found one thing about this investigation to be the least bit routine, boring, as expected. Nothing has happened the way one would expect it to happen. And that's after, I guess, I handled close to 10,000 cases, either investigating, pleading out, trials.

When you're in a major metropolitan city handling felonies day in, day out, that's not unheard of. There will be many other people most likely on the arraignment list. Typically, well, in big cities, you'll have arraignments throughout the week we would typically have them twice a week with 150 new cases on the count on the arraignment calendar each day so when I talk about what's happening at arraignment this could be special special set for cooberger, just Koberger. But you never know what Koberger is going to do. Would you agree with that, McDonough? Absolutely, Nancy.

And we have been talking about this right on your show for months now. And every opportunity that he gets, it is always a surprise in relationship to if it's his legal team, you know, putting the affidavits together to kind of circumvent the gag order. We now find out that information, uh, you know, was pretty much a tactic.

Uh, and now we have this other information that's floated to the top. It won't surprise me if he, you know, raises his eyebrows just for the attention because he needs that attention. It's part of his makeup right now. You know, it's another interesting thing. And I'm going to go back out to Tara Malik, high profile lawyer, joining us out of the Coburger jurisdiction of Idaho. For so long, we were told there was going to be a preliminary hearing, and I started screaming at the get-go,

don't do it, don't do it, don't do a preliminary hearing. Because a preliminary hearing serves the same function as a grand jury proceeding, which is held in private. Do we have to say the name O.J. Simpson preliminary hearing, which was a huge circus. The state's witnesses were really not ready to undergo cross-examination as if they were at a jury trial. A preliminary hearing, a grand jury hearing, is just to put enough evidence up for a judge to say, yes, I see there's an issue of fact. You brought on this evidence such as the DNA found on the knife sheath that matches Koberger.

Koberger says he wasn't there. He's not guilty. So that's an issue of fact. And the jury is a sole judge of the facts. That's all it's supposed to be. But somehow preliminary hearings somehow get out of control every single time they happen, Tara. Yeah, it's true. I mean, every time you open it up into this whole kind of adversarial process, you're going to have things happen that happened during trial. You can't predict perfectly what

every witness is going to say. You don't know what the defense will try and elicit out of them. So I think the best way to go in these types of cases is grand jury proceeding. There's no reason why you shouldn't do a grand jury. Like you said, it's in private. You know, the defense gets a transcript of it later on. They can attack it if they think the prosecutor did something wrong. So there's still that due process element. But to open it up to this full adversarial, you're going to get the same issues that are kind of coming up or started to come up in Coburger, where defense is going to demand all sorts of, you know, information prior to the preliminary hearing

and move to compel that information. We haven't even gotten to discovery really yet. Yeah, and when Tarle Malik is saying discovery, what that means is that before you go to trial, strike a jury, start putting up evidence, the state has to hand over, for instance, all scientific reports like DNA, fingerprints, fibers, shoe prints, anything that went to the lab. They have to hand over defendant statements. They have to hand over names and addresses of all the witnesses, plus a witness list. All that has to be handed over by the state to the defense. And in many jurisdictions, the defense has to hand over limited information to the state.

So nobody is ambushed at trial. So it's truly a trial based on the evidence, not on ambush techniques. Guys, this is what's happening right now. Koberger is expected to enter a courtroom at any minute to enter a plea of guilty or not guilty, to have his charges formally read out loud in a court of law. We're probably going to hear a flurry of motions announced. The defense, I'm sure, is going to want a slew of motions to be heard. And then we begin setting down the groundwork for the trial. We are also learning at this hour that Koberger is now accused of planting video cameras

that he could access in a colleague, a female colleague's place. But first, take a listen to Erin McLaughlin, NBC. Brian Koberger, the man charged with stabbing four college students to death, now indicted by a grand jury. The indictment includes four counts of murder in the first degree and one count of burglary. If found guilty, he could be sentenced to death. Koberger has yet to enter a plea, but his previous attorney said he believes he'll be exonerated. The indictment follows his December arrest at his family home in Pennsylvania. More than 45 days after Maddie Mogan, Kaylee Gonsalves, Zanna Carnodle, and Ethan Chapin were found brutally murdered in this college house.

KREM reporting that the victim's families have issues with what's happening right now. Listen. Ray says he found out about the indictment. Up until then, he says the Gonsalves family has been preparing to see Koberger in June, a timeline he already had a problem with. Once you've charged someone on an information,

you're normally a preliminary hearing within a couple weeks out. And they said six months out. You know, and I don't think that really was of, you know, it's, that's hard for a victim's families, for all the victims' families. That's hard. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Dr. Joni Johnson, joining us, forensic psychologist, private investigator, performs assessments on violent offenders, and is the author of Serial Killers, 101 Questions True Crime Fans Ask. are saying. It seems as if they were preparing to attend the preliminary hearing. Instead, there is a grand jury proceeding that's already happened, which I think is in the best interest of the state and the victim's families. And they say that this is difficult.

I can't even imagine how difficult. Here's the reality. The grand jury move was the best thing strategically for the state and for the victim's families. I think basically anything at this juncture is going to be really hard on the victim's family. Talking about the murders, having to see Coburger in court, going to a preliminary hearing that there's been a grand jury indictment. Anything is going to be hard for them because they're having the worst time that they will ever have in their lives. You're absolutely right. And I think that just shows probably the disconnect between what is best strategically from a legal standpoint and what the family's feeling. And you're absolutely right. I mean, this is the worst case scenario. They've had no control over anything in their lives.

They've lost the most important people in their lives. And now they're getting surprised. And so nothing is going to feel good. Everything is going to be painful. And I'm sure every bump in the road for them, and of course a surprise, is going to be a bump in the road. No matter how much the big picture says,

yes, this is the best thing, it must feel like, again, once again, the rug is being pulled out from under them. Yeah, this is a lose-lose scenario for the state, because no matter what they do, it's going to hurt the victims, their feelings, their emotions, and there's no way around it. I want to play that one more time, exactly what the victims, and this is specifically the Gonsalves family, they are the ones speaking out against what's happening.

Listen. Gray says he found out about the indictment. Up until then, he says the Gonsalves family has been preparing to see Koberger in June, a timeline he already had a problem with. Once you've charged someone on an information, you're normally a preliminary hearing within a couple weeks out. And they said six months out.

You know, and I don't think that really was of, you know, it's, that's hard for a victim's family, for all the victim's families, that's hard. Okay, someone is not explaining this properly to the victim's family number one and uh tara jump in if i've got the idaho law incorrectly an information is when a prosecutor gets their notepad all on their own and they went okay i've read the police report i'm charging coberger with four counts of murder. And that's the formal charge. You don't want that.

Yes, it's acceptable in a court of law, but you don't want that on appeal. A grand jury is much more reliable. A grand jury of, say, 30 or 40 people hearing the evidence and hearing witnesses is much more reliable and solid on appeal when it's being attacked by a defense lawyer than a single prosecutor going, ah, I think I'll go with murder and four counts. No, don't do that. So initially drawing this up as an information was basically a placeholder. I think they knew all along they were going to have a grand jury. So that needs to be explained to the family. We want a conviction as victims' families. We want a conviction that will hold up on appeal, not a quick answer that will do for today. We want something lasting that is tried and true that can stand the test of fire on appeal when it is questioned and poked and prodded. So the state absolutely did the right

thing not proceeding on what is called an information or an informational. They went to a grand jury. Now again the reason not to have a preliminary hearing is because it subjects your witnesses to cross examination far in advance of the jury trial. Why do that? Why put them through that? And why show the defense your whole playbook at a preliminary hearing? Again, does anybody remember, I mean Chris McDonough, do you remember the Orenthal James sent some preliminary hearing?

It truly was like a circus. There should have been one witness, the lead detective, who can speak hearsay at a grand jury. And that's okay at a grand jury. Instead, it turned into a debacle. We don't want a debacle in the Koberger trial. 100% agree with you, Nancy, that, you know, in the OJ trial, as we remember, you know, you're 100% right. It did turn into, you know, just this unbelievable flow of information going one way. And I think one of the challenges that the PD has had here, I mean, from an investigative aspect, is, you know, they really

do need to assign a liaison. I don't know if they have or haven't, but it sounds like they haven't. And, you know, you got to do that immediately when these high profile things go, you know, take place. And you got to get everybody in the same room and say, look, we need to go into that courtroom and, you know, arm to arm and arm with the district attorney. I mean, how many families have you seen in your career, Nancy, where you're fighting the family and you're trying to fight the defendant at the same time? That is awful, Chris McDonough. The family needs to be in lockstep with the prosecutor. And that is not the family's responsibility you're right there needs to be a liaison because you remember what i just played

you from the gonsalves family lawyer gray gray found out about the indictment through an email that's all wrong right there yeah that's that's horrible prosecutor or the liaison that you're referring to should have called the family look look and said look we're having a grand jury and this is why this is the best thing because i've been screaming since day one they do not need to do a preliminary hearing n o just fraught with danger guys that's not the only thing happening in the news right now regarding coberger as we wait for him to come into the courtroom. Let's take a listen to our friend Kelly Beeson. Brian Koberger was involved in another crime that happened before these murders. Now, this incident involved his female co-worker at Washington State University,

where someone allegedly broke into the woman's apartment and moved things around. Instead of calling police, the co-worker called Koberger, who suggested and helped her install security cameras. But the report says Koberger was behind that break-in and used those cameras to spy on her. It just gets worse. It's not that he just helped install these security video cameras. They actually think he faked a break-in to get her to get the cameras. It's very intricate in the planning. Joining me right now, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter Nicole Parton. You can find her on Twitter at Nicole Parton. Nicole, what happened? So Nancy, Brian Kohlberger, he befriended this colleague of his at Washington State University.

And then it's alleged that he went to her home, broke into her home and would move things around. He didn't steal anything. But imagine going into your home and now your sofa is moved from one place to the other. Or your phone or things that you've had placed in a particular spot are moved around it spooked the lady so she comes back to work and she talks to her friend brian and he of course suggests that he come over and he saved the day when he got there his suggestion was surveillance you need cameras installed in your home.

And guess what? I'm the guy for the job. I can install those. It's alleged that he installed security surveillance videos. And because he had access now to the passwords and to her Wi-Fi, he was able to log in and spy on her throughout her home. Every person in this studio is making a face right now, an ill, ick, horrible face. And it's very, very, I believe, probative,

proves something, Chris McDonough, that this alleged incident of him moving the woman's objects around inside of her apartment to make her afraid then she comes and tells him at work and just as he is expected for that he expects this scenario to happen he then as Nicole Parton says saves the day and goes let's install video cams finish that sentence so I can snoop and spy on you and watch you change clothes and take a shower whenever I feel like it. Here's the critical part as it relates to the four murders. This incident allegedly took place just a few months before the four murders. So

what does that mean to you, to Chris McDonough? Well, there's a high probability this is information that indicates pre-incident behavior. And, you know, a leopard doesn't lose its spots, right, Nancy? And we've talked about this. You've talked about this. You've stood on that driveway looking and look through those windows in the back of that house. And I think you and I both had the same feeling of, oh my gosh, this is so exposed here. And now we learn that he potentially allegedly used, you know, his cloud-based technology skills to go into a colleague's house and up the ante, as Greg Cooper says. And it just puts chills down your spine of what other incidents are we going to learn about

that this guy was really deep into his planning. And the fact that he could move those items around potentially if it's him and have that control over her and then ultimately we now get to the homicides you know within a month or two after this particular incident's reported many would argue it uh the installing of the cameras and the spying on the woman um various states of undress, puttering around her apartment, doing whatever people do in private, was simply a step in the progression leading up to the four murders where many people believe he spied on the three female victims, end up killing a fourth as well, Ethan Chapin.

But the progression, the step in the progression. Guys, take a listen to our friend at NBC, Keith Morrison. Our source says Kohlberger had befriended a woman in his graduate criminology cohort. The woman had returned to her apartment one evening and found some things amiss. Items moved from where she'd left them. In the kitchen. In the bath. Quite bizarre.

So what did she do? Well, our source tells us that since nothing had been taken, the woman did not call the police. Instead, she called her new friend, Brian Koberger, who our source says volunteered to come over and take a look. And he soon recommended the installation of a video security system. And he, Koberger, volunteered to do the work. I mean, Dr. Joni Johnson, forensic psychologist. Can you believe that? Well, unfortunately, I can't believe that. I mean, it just speaks to so many things about him in terms of his deviousness and his ability to act. I mean, this is somebody who befriends a coworker

and pretends to be this nice guy, sets up a situation where she's vulnerable and then takes advantage of it. And I think it definitely does speak to him progressing. I mean, this is a guy who, even when he was an undergraduate, people were saying he was staring at them. And there was issues of stalking and those kinds of things and potentially going to the victim's homes and looking in.

I mean, this is somebody who just really does get off on being in control. And people don't even have to know that he's in control. It's enough for him to know it. Guys, take a listen to our friends at NBC. This is Keith Morrison. After the installation, our source says police believe Kohlberger, if he was close enough to the woman's apartment, could pull up the cameras himself for a look. Because Kohlberger knew the woman's Wi-Fi password. Our source tells us that Brian Kohlberger is now considered a strong suspect in the break-in. Hearing that, retired FBI profiler Greg Cooper offers this theory.

What does that say to you? I would expect that he orchestrated the whole thing. Okay, orchestrating a break-in, not to take anything but to manipulate items, move them around inside his female colleague's apartment, knowing she would come tell him about it and he could offer to put in a surveillance system. Joining me right now is Bill Daley, former FBI investigator and expert in forensic photography, security expert. Bill Daley, Have you ever heard anything like this? Well, Nancy, unfortunately, yes.

I mean, it is something that over the years, not let's say specifically with somebody manipulating someone, but people going in and putting cameras in to be observing individuals and doing that in a way that doesn't suggest there was a crime preceding it, meaning that in this case, he didn't go in and rob the apartment, which would have, as mentioned in the story just a few minutes ago, would have precipitated more police involvement. But yet relied on him then as kind of this kind of savior to come in and allegedly, you know, help this individual so i i have heard of cases and have worked on on cases in the past where where there have been surreptitious uh placement of cameras uh for various purposes and so it's not surprising that in this particular case and i'm going to kind of draw a little bit on from my my my friends in the behavioral science part of the fbi but this does demonstrate uh and could demonstrate leakage and leakage in in this in this phase is really talking about kind of this go to a kind of a state of mind

and a manner in which he would behave by perhaps watching someone at a distance. And maybe that also ties into some of the reports, Nancy, that we heard of him canvassing the home of the victims and doing some observation remotely, having actually been there to know what the layout of the floor plan was. You just mentioned not just creepy, not just unsettling. I agree.

In fact, I find it probative because if you really analyze what he's accused of doing, Bill Daley, you see a fingerprint. You see a similar modus operandi method of operation. Watching your victim at a distance. Driving close enough to her home, her apartment, to be part of her Wi-Fi. Logging in, possibly from remote, to watch her whenever he felt like it. Praying on someone he knew,

much as he thought he knew, the victims at University of Idaho from contacting them digitally, spying on them, showing up at a restaurant where they work, being around them. The victims, also young females, likely similar in appearance and age, in the same area, in a similar housing situation, connected to him tangentially, that he stalks.

In my mind, it's an outright similar transaction. Can I share a thought, Nancy? Jump in, Chris. So, right, this is all behavior very consistent with, obviously, this possession, right? And it's kind of the buildup for them. I mean, I've talked to suspects that post incident. It's almost as if, you know, the most exciting part was not necessarily the kill, but it was building up to that kill.

And and one of the things that we talked about on your show a while ago was the fact that the first thing the defense did when they went into that house, remember what they took the first thing? That smart TV. Okay. And that's on their affidavit. And the cops stood there and said, okay, all they did, you know, they took receipts, they took a couple other things, but they took that TV out of there. That makes one wonder, what do they know?

And what's on that tv i know they did a hard drive dump on it through the through the uh um the what's it called the firefox or whatever the uh amazon stick or something to that effect so they they did a hard dive or a dump on it but they got that tv and so i you and i have talked about this you just wonder what in the world you know was he really doing from his own apartment that his team comes in and says let's get this quickly i want to give a, let me just say, I want to refresh your recollection as it relates to what this is all about. This is about Ethan Chapin, Madison Mogan, Zanna Cronodal, and Gailie Consalves. Kelly, Zanna, Madison, and Nathan lost their lives brutally. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace With me, Dr. Jan Gorniak, renowned medical examiner,

joining us out of Clark County Office of the Medical Examiner. That's Las Vegas. Dr. Gorniak, could you remind us of the brutality inflicted on these four young, possibly sleeping university students? You know, you keep going back to the OJ trial, right? And when I first heard about this, I too, along with other people, was surprised that one person was able to accomplish these injuries on all these people, whether they were sleeping or not.

I'm just imagining how stealth he was getting into the house and just brutally incisor and stab wound sharp force injuries on these young victims. And I just can't imagine, obviously, knowing that the brutality that he was able to inflict on each of these young people without any fight back. That makes any sense? And like I said, I was shocked that one person was able to do this. The degree of brutality was immeasurable. What were the injuries these four victims sustained, Dr. Gorniak? They had multiple sharp force injuries.

So when you talk about stab wounds and size wounds, so obviously in cases like this, it's just a lot of blood loss. So like I said, it's unimaginable that they could have all these wounds about their body without being able to wake up or fight back. It must have been so fast. You know what I mean? I'm just trying to figure out how fast and rapid it could have been to be able to injure these young people like that.

And it's interesting, cause I hear you talking about the preliminary hearing versus a grand jury. And actually from where I sit, because as an independent witness, even though most of the times we are called by the prosecutor, but I myself prefer the preliminary hearing as an expert, because then you know where the defense is coming from. And it's interesting to see how we're different players in the whole legal system fit and how we approach it differently.

Dr. Gorniak, I understand what you're saying as a witness at trial. Yep. That you want to know what's going to happen at trial and you can find that out at a preliminary trial on your own cross-examination. But most witnesses, Dr. Gorniak, I know, and I'm not even being a tiny bit sarcastic. Dr. Gorniak, most of us are just mere mortals that probably would not hold up to cross-examination as well as you. Right. And as a prosecutor, I don't want to put a, let's just say, a fearful witness,

an easily intimidated witness, an easily confused witness up on the stand so the defense can have not one but two cracks at them, preliminary and the trial. I mean, you would like make,

you know, child's play of a defense lawyer on cross-exam. I'd like to see that cross-exam myself i get a bag of popcorn for that but for most witnesses you don't want to subject them to two cross-exams and that's what i would say i mean so for me as like you said as the witness absolutely but i can only imagine as someone who's intimately involved in the case, how mentally challenging and devastating that that could have lasting effects. I mean, having testified, Dr. Gorniak, at my fiance's murder trial, I know I wouldn't want to do it twice.

I absolutely would not want to do it twice. I agree. And so I see both sides. I see both sides. And I just wanted to share that. You know what's interesting? Jumping off what Dr. Gorniak just said, Chris McDonough, I'm just thinking about what the witnesses are going to have to go through at the actual trial. But I'm thinking about this female witness, the colleague that was tricked into having Brian Koberger, of all people, install a security system in her home, the video cameras. You know what, Chris McDonough, think about it. It was building in him, even at that time.

This is just like a tiny taste of what he was capable of. She should thank her lucky stars, thank heaven, that she was not murdered, this female colleague of his. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, so when we think through that, he is fantasizing in relationship to, you know, the big event. You know, as Dr. Gary Bercato says, you know, he's eventually going to sit in that prelim and in front of him, not knowing what he's thinking about her while she's on that stand. Remember in the OJ trial, Barry Sheck had Dr. You know, the criminalist Fong on the stand. And every time, you know, he didn't say he put two sets of pairs of gloves on Barry Sheck would say what about that Mr. Fong and that resonated through the law enforcement

community back in that time because I was there where we all started talking about not getting Fonged. Oh my goodness I've never heard heard that before. I remember, what about that, Mr. Phong? But I've never heard about not getting phonged. I'm hearing right now everyone is headed to the courtroom for the formal arraignment. We'll bring it to you as we hear it. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.