Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Sobbing jurors fear for their lives in trial of Drug Lord El Chapo NOW

Episode Date: November 13, 2018

The trial of the world's most notorious drug trafficker best known as "El Chapo" began with opening statements in a New York federal courtroom Tuesday. Nancy Grace digs into the case against Joaquín Archivaldo Guzmán Loera with an expert panel including Southern California prosecutor Wendy Patrick,  psychologist Caryn Stark, lawyer Jason Oshins, forensics expert Karen Smith, and reporter Robyn Walensky. She also updates the case of Colorado dad Chris Watts, who admitted a week ago that he murdered his pregnant wife and their two young daughters. Watts' parents gave an interview this week in which they express disbelief that their son would have killed the children and they suggest the wife had a role. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Do you know another parent or expecting parent? Are you wondering what can I give them as a gift? Don't give them another onesie. Don't give them a plastic toy or, God forbid, a toy gun that's just going to end up in the garage. Give them something that matters. And what matters the most is protecting their child.

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I'd rather have that any day of the week than a plastic toy or, God forbid, a toy gun. Join Justice Nation. Go to crimestopshere.com. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. This is the new face of organized crime, and he's the godfather. I'm a cocaine hellboy, but I'm living in Georgia. In any community that has the availability of cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine, dangerous drugs, designer drugs, you can directly or indirectly connect it to Chapo. Chapo, El Chapo, the drug lord, the notorious drug lord. You are hearing a retired DEA agent, Fuel Jordan, telling any community with availability to cocaine, heroin, meth, or any dangerous drug,

you can relate it directly or indirectly back to El Chapo. And let me just kick this off by saying, after you're convicted, you can rot in hell, Chapo. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. And I just want to start by saying when I first started prosecuting felonies in inner city Atlanta, this was following my fiance's murder shortly before our wedding. I couldn't try murders fast enough.

At that time, Atlanta, the murder capital of the country. Why? Because of drugs. Drugs coming into Miami and coming straight up the I-75 corridor. First big stop, Atlanta. The misery. The misery. The pain.

The poverty. Caused by drugs. Affecting everybody from newborn babies to old, old people. I remember one woman shot dead over a $5 drug debt. I remember one woman shot dead because she vouched for somebody's cocaine and it wasn't pure enough. Murders over a $5 rock of crack. A murder of a young boy. I remember his mother sitting there knitting. Miss Leola knitting during her son's trial.

Her son, the victim, gunned down, chased through the neighborhood, and shot dead at the doorstep over drugs. It just never ends. And finally, finally, El Chapo in our grasp. But it ain't over yet. Already, one juror wanted his autograph. Yeah. Joining me right now, Robin Walensky, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter.

Robin, I'm sick to my stomach when this juror says, quote, I'm a bit of a fan. I mean, what? He hasn't seen those photos of bodies hanging upside down along the bridges where El Chapo lives by dopers he thinks wronged him. I mean, have they all lost their minds? This is the mentality, Nancy, of jurors in the John Gotti case where you had people that were, it was 50-50, people that were scared to death that didn't even want to be on the jury and asked for dismissal for any reason. And then the other half that was just, you know, struck that it was, you know, John Gotti, El Chapo, and you have these nutcases out there that, you know, that these figures are larger than life and they idolize them like, you know, that these figures are larger than life.

And they idolize them like, you know, a Tony Soprano figure. Will we be able to get a pure, untainted jury? Listen. From the moment he set foot on U.S. soil, Joaquin El Chapo Guzman, the Sinaloa cartel's feared ex-boss, has seemingly been surrounded by federal agents wherever he goes. Jurors will get a taste of that if they're selected for his trial. U.S. Marshals will escort them to and from the courthouse every day for their own safety. These jurors are going to be protected in a way that is highly unusual. CBS News legal analyst Ricky Kleeman says the names

of Guzman's jurors are being kept a secret to foil any hitmen and prevent bribes. No one will know their names. They won't know their addresses, their occupations. This will not become information for the public or certainly not for the Sinaloa drug cartel. Oh, really? You know, that's my longtime colleague and friend, Ricky Kleeman, that we did court TV together for years and CBS News reporter Nikki Batista. But let me just tell you something. The public may not know the names, but the defense lawyers know the names. They have to, by law. If the defense lawyers know the names of the jurors, then El Chapo knows the names of the jurors. You don't think these jurors are afraid? Listen. A potential juror was dismissed after she told the judge,

what scares me is that Guzman's family will come after jurors and their family. Another said, I'm nervous. Others were asked if they had watched popular Netflix shows about drug trafficking like El Chapo. The biggest problem with illegal money is the trail that it leads. A woman who watched Narcos was dismissed. It goes on and on and on. Jurors afraid for their lives. But the big question is, how did he get caught to start with? How did we finally reel in El Chapo? Remember, he was being held. Robin Walensky, CrimeOnline.com investigative

reporter. And with me, Karen Smith, renowned forensics expert, veteran trial lawyer in the tri-state area, Jason Oceans. This is happening in your backyard, Oceans. Karen Stark, New York's, yeah, yeah, yeah, you better wear a bulletproof vest the next time you go to answer a plea calendar at that courthouse. Karen Stark, New York psychologist, joining me from Manhattan, veteran prosecutor, including drug cases, Wendy Patrick, joining me from California. Of course, Alan Duke and Jackie Howard with me. You know, Robin Walensky, remember? El Chapo was being held first in a Mexican jail. All right. We saw him in there. We all saw the video of him in there. And then suddenly, he's not. What happened? Well, it turns out there was an underground tunnel dug.

I forgot how long the thing was. Over a mile, I think. Where El Chapo, as I recall, rode a motorcycle from underneath the jail a mile away to a construction site. He pops up at the construction site. He's long gone until his own son screws up. Tell me the story, Robin Walensky. How did he get out of the Mexican prison? Well, here's the bottom line, Nancy.

He had actually been, just for the full story, he had been captured three times over the years. Once in 93, again in 2014, and then in 2016. And he had this elaborate, you know what it reminds me of? It reminds me of when we caught up with Osama bin Laden and he was living in the house over there in the hills. He also wrought in hell where I'm sure he's having dinner with Satan right now. Go ahead. And, yeah, just, you know, people were covering for him and there was this elaborate tunnels with doors.

And he had a king-sized bed, if you can believe it, not a twin bed, but a king-size bed, and he had a closet and a bathroom and tunnels, and he was coming and going because, just like with Bin Laden, people were covering for him. It was a hole that led the world's most wanted man to freedom. Again, rub my nose in it, Robin Walensky. I mean, Karen Smith, forensics expert, you want to tell me that jail, the Mexican prison, didn't know that Mexico's billion-dollar drug lord didn't have a motorbike, lights, and oxygen tanks

waiting for him in a tunnel directly beneath the prison? Hello? And they're our ally? Right. And you know what? It's amazing to me that nobody had eyes on him 24-7. This guy was so resourceful, and he had people on the outside working for him. These weren't just two or three people. He had dozens of people digging these tunnels 24-7. And you're telling me that nobody knew about it? Nobody had eyes on this guy from outside the cell? Well, thank you for the video because we saw him disappear. Joaquin El Chapo Guzman, the billionaire head of the powerful Sinaloa cartel made a jailbreak early on a Saturday morning and went on the run. How did he do it? Well, because he had help.

And now he, after being caught, thanks to his own son, Idget, posting. Isn't that how it went down, Robin Walensky? Didn't his son post photos of him and had the geotag on it? Yeah, and he was recognized. He was on the lam for seven months. And then they finally caught up with him because people recognized who he was. And then for two years, he's been in solitary, Nancy. Right, right, right. Yeah, he was in solitary in Mexico, too. How did he get caught? Listen. As soon as we met with the Mexican Marines and provided our intelligence, it was leaked. It was leaked that we were moving resources in and around his area to prepare for a raid.

But what saved us is that Chapo didn't know that we were coming specifically for him. He knew something big was about to go down, but he didn't know it was for him. And that's an attribute to the Marines really keeping it tight. So, yeah, we mounted up with the Marines and went to the ground hand-in-hand with each other, all dressed in camouflage to root him out. You know, we had planned the raid for early morning at 5.30. We knew he was at this place called Hotel Miramar in Mazatlan, Sinaloa. We hit the door at 5.30. The Marines started going in through the hotel and I stayed out outside. I was

worried about our perimeter, about him escaping us again. And I was just about to walk around the block to secure the perimeter, you know, when I could see the lights starting to come on in the windows there at the hotel. And I said, good, we're, you know, we're finally getting somewhere. And then I heard excited radio chatter that they got the target.

They had the target and they needed a vehicle. Mine was the first in, and I drove it down into the parking garage where they had him underneath the hotel. You are hearing from BBC Radio former DEA agent Andrew Hogan describing the chase and the capture of El Chapo in a secret raid working with the Mexico Marines. Right now, we have El Chapo in our grasp, the world's most notorious drug lord. It's not just about drugs. It's about pain, misery, murder, torture, torture of human beings that would not go along with El Chapo's demands.

He's finally in our grasp. Will he escape? Will one juror be so afraid that they acquit or cause a hung jury? Is it possible for us to get justice? I mean, you know, here's the deal. Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor. I've tried so many drug cases, I can't even count them. I can't possibly count all the drug cases I've taken to juries. You know, when you say he's a drug lord, people don't get the misery unless you see it yourself, unless you see junkies shooting up walk with their diapies sagging down to their knees. Literally, I saw 50, 60 little bitty roaches climbing up the wall around the kitchen clock. And the mom was passed out on coke.

With the babies running around, I knocked on the door looking for a witness a baby opened the door i i it couldn't have been two years old with the diapies sagging down the wet diapies full of poop and tt with the mom passed out on cocaine the mom and maybe 1920 I don't know and I saw the roaches on the wall and then when I got in there were like eight or nine other infants lying on the floor with the tv on some morning show they all had these bottles baby bottles that looked like there was coca-cola in them they were laying on that filthy floor with the roaches that's just one thing i remember i remember crack addicts burning down houses you know because they just oh people don't get and i remember wendy have you seen the photos

where el chapo would order people murdered and they would hang them upside down from bridges. This is who we're trying right now. Yeah. You know, Nancy, this case gives a whole new meaning to the importance of drug cases. It breaks my heart to hear anybody think that drugs are a victimless crime. The next time anybody ever thinks of it that way, I hope they listen to this broadcast and everything you've just described, because it is one of the most insidious epidemics that we suffer globally. And this trial actually really brings that to light in terms of all of the collateral damage that the drug trade causes. It's not just about the perpetrators that are moving drugs across state lines or selling them within their own countries. It is about, as you mentioned, all of the victims and

all of the lives ruined by the use of drugs and by trafficking. And that is part of what I hope this trial will be about. Take a listen to our friend Nikki Batiste regarding all the safety precautions being taken right now in the trial of the most notorious drug kingpin in the world in our grasp el chapo to prevent guzman from escaping again marshall shut down parts of the brooklyn bridge when he was moved from his manhattan cell for all his pre-trial hearings no one wants to take the chance that something out of a Mission Impossible movie happens where suddenly a helicopter comes down and people come out of the water

and the next thing we know is that El Chapo is gone. That is not going to happen during this trial. Well, that's what we think. That's my good friend and longtime colleague, Ricky Kleeman. Jason Oceans, you and Ricky and I have been on many, many times together. She takes a more, let me say, seasoned and calming approach to this. She's so articulate and so brilliant.

But I got to disagree. I disagree. You can't be too careful with El Chapo. Did you not hear Robert Walensky just say he's already escaped from jail, including in, quote, maximum security, wink, wink, nudge, nudge in a Mexican prison? Jason, I mean, all the movies we see where there are shootouts in courthouses and the perp gets away, that's real, Jason. No, it is, Nancy, and there's a vast difference between the federales in Mexico and the U.S. Marshals who are going to be working here. I mean, you did hear the DEA agents say, thank God for the Mexican Marines who kept it nice and tight. And that's how they were able to get them. So some people can't be compromised. Some people have high integrity.

And I will tell you, in just working with the U.S. Marshals, and you know them very well, they are an amazing group. They are working this nice and tight. If he's moving back between MCC and Manhattan and the BCC in Brooklyn, the federal courts back and forth, they cover that very, very well. I do not think, though I'm sure El Chapo and his people are probably thinking about it with the vast amounts of money, I do not think it will happen here, Nancy. I bet against it. I tell you what, I'm going to be lying on the courthouse steps screaming if Chapo gets away. Karen Stark joining me. And boy, do we need to shrink New York psychologist.

Very often people equate drugs, as Wendy was saying. Wendy Patrick is a victimless crime. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have seen the misery. I've seen mothers come before me in court. I remember one beautiful stockbroker. She lost her job. She lost her husband.

She lost her custody of her children, her marriage, her home, her license, everything gone because of an addiction to cocaine. She spent it all, Karen Stark. I mean, you can't describe the pain that drugs cause people. How can it be victimless, Nancy? People die from drugs all the time. Not only that, the people dealing the drugs, as you were talking about, they wind up killing each other. And the whole country has been dealing with this for years because of El Chapo and people like him. And what's interesting to me is he's a drug lord, right? But so many people ignore the drug part and they treat him like he's a lord instead of the drug person that he is. He's evil. This is a despot.

Do you know another parent or expecting parent? Are you wondering what can I give them as a gift? Don't give them another onesie. Don't give them a plastic toy or God forbid a toy gun that's just going to end up in the garage. Give them something that matters and what matters the most is protecting their child. What do you love most in the world? Your children. What will you do to protect them? Anything. I sat down with the smartest people I know in the world on matters of child safety, finding missing children, fighting back against predators. And what I learned is so important, powerful, and information so critical.

I want you to have it. I want them to have it. Go to crimestopshere.com for a five-part series with action information that you can use to change your life and protect your child. Payment starting $6.99. Give that as a gift, not another onesie. Find out how to protect your child when you're out at the mall or the store, the grocery, in the parking lot, at home. Find out about protection regarding babysitters and daycare, even online. I'd rather have that any day of the week than a plastic toy, or God forbid, a toy gun. Join Justice Nation.

Go to crimestopshere.com. It was very dark. I'm wearing his black, Chapo's black ball cap that I had taken a few days prior from one of his safe houses in Culiacan, kind of my only souvenir of the hunt. And you were wearing it at that moment? I was wearing it at that moment. I was in a black ski mask, dressed in camouflage, and I got out of my vehicle, ran right up to him, jumped into his face and said the first thing that came to my mind, which was, What's up, Chapo?

You see, it is one of those moments. Had you even visualized in your mind the moment that it would happen? No, you know, there was no time to think. I mean, we were trying to survive on this operation. I mean, we were in the middle of, you know, the Wild West, essentially. You know, and there was no time to think kind of about what you would say or how it would go down. We were just acting in the moment.

It sounds like you were full of adrenaline. How did he react to that? You know, he kind of jumped back. We locked eyes there for a second. And, you know, it was dark, and I don't really think he knew where he was at. They placed him in my vehicle, and they took him out. You are hearing BBC Radio and former DEA agent Andrew Hogan describing the chase and the capture of the world's most notorious drug lord, El Chapo, right now. He is headed to a New York courtroom.

How did it happen? How was he ever caught? Well, before this guy, DEA agent Andrew Hogan, chased him down in an underground area, had he been hiding in Costa Rica? The world's most wanted drug lord was on the run after escaping a Mexican prison after his son forgets to switch off the location data, the geotagging. In a Twitter picture, Jesus Alfredo Guzman Salazar shares a photo taken in a restaurant on Twitter. Why? Why? The image seemed to show him eating along with his drug lord dad, El Chapo, but the 29-year-old forgot to switch off the phone's location tagging. The photo suggested the image was taken in Costa Rica and the net tightened on El Chapo. This guy who has murdered and tortured untold hundreds of people, literally a billionaire off the blood of dope dealers and dope addicts, wanted a hug?

El Chapo needs a huggy into courtroom robin walensky what it is absolutely outrageous nancy when i heard that he wants to hug his wife boo hoo hoo listen he's had at just for the record he's had at least four wives he has at least 10 kids roaming around out there and this current wife he has twins with, she had to have the twins in the States and never put down that he was the daddy because she didn't want anything bad to happen. And then suddenly he tells his attorneys, well, I've been in solitary for two years and see if I can hug my wife in the courthouse. Are you kidding me? And then the attorneys say, well, it's a humanitarian gesture. Meanwhile, guess what? This has been denied. I also just want to add one thing, Nancy. Where he's being kept is the same place, if you will call the blind shake,

Omar Abdel Rahman, the 93 World Trade Center bomber. This is the same area in Manhattan in the prison system that he's being kept in, the so-called supermax. And I think that they have a really pretty, very good handle on it in light of the fact that if they had Rahman in there, they can deal with El Chapo. Well, I hope so. In the last hours, a judge has ruled that the feared Mexican drug kingpin, El Chapo Guzman, will not get a hug from his beauty queen wife in court. Here's the deal. Anything can lead to, how can I say it, Jason Oceans, you're very familiar

with this courthouse. I recall being lunged at by a convicted killer in court coming at me with a pen. Well, my investigator got a hold of him. Let me just say that. Long story short, you don't know what's going to happen in court. You don't know who somehow has a plastic gun. You don't know who has what or what is happening in that courtroom. One wrong move with somebody like El Chapo, all H-E-double-L can break loose. Hell no, he's not getting a hug across the jury rail from his wife. Who knows what she might slip him. Uh-uh, not happening.

No, not happening, Nancy. MCC, as has been mentioned, is real tight. The Blind Shake, John Gotti Sr., all have been held in MCC. It attaches directly through into the court system through tunnels and passages, ways that I've been through on both sides of the coin. So it's very, very tight, Nancy. But you are right. Court, open air, and who knows what happens. A lunge of a pen, anything becomes a weapon from a paper clip in the eye. So nobody is looking to have any hugs or kisses for the benefit of anything, as you just said, that could be exchanged. No chances. Nice and tight. Keep them separate. Keep them solitary. And, you know, that'll be the way that we keep everybody safe. Well, you know what?

I'll just put it, I'll put it euphemistically, euphemistically. He's got a nerve asking for huggies in the courtroom. As one of my favorite newspapers writes, the New York Post, the lonely drug lord requested he be allowed an embrace from his wife before opening statements but brooklyn federal judge brian coogan put the hammer down on that put the kibosh on it now i'm no longer quoting now the defense had promised their client would not use the huggy to facilitate an escape now this is what the court says quote the court is sympathetic to the request. As defense counsel points out, defendants conduct during what are surely difficult proceedings. What?

What? He's being coddled behind bars. He's murdered people. He's hung them upside down from bridges. He has tortured people in the drug business. Conditions of confinement for him have been exemplary. He has displayed grace under pressure. What pressure? He's a billionaire. He's probably plotting his escape right now. Nevertheless, having conferred with the U.S. Marshal Service about the request, the court is

constrained to deny it. You darn right you're denying it. Nobody else gets to make out with their wife in the courtroom. So Robin Walensky, jurors have actually broken out in sobs at the prospect of being on the jury fly. Well, they're scared to death, Nancy. I mean, this is the same story that went on during Gotti. You remember some of the Gotti trials before they finally got him, where jurors were intimidated. At the end of the day, though, they do have seven women and five men who are scheduled to show up at Brooklyn Federal Court next week for all of this. And good luck to them. Like you say, the attorneys do know who they are.

And I really hope that it does not get out where they live. But can you imagine the geography for people listening to your show? When you go from that Supermax prison there in lower Manhattan, they're going to have to close down the Brooklyn Bridge. Think of all the 9-11 video when you saw people walking across the Brooklyn Bridge to go to the courthouse, the federal courthouse in Brooklyn. They're going to have to close that bridge down to get him across safely. And no doubt in my mind, they'll have some sort of NYPD, New York City Police Department, chopper overhead as that caravan carries him over across that bridge in Brooklyn. They're going to shut that down to traffic. I remember when the bridges were shut down the day I was in New York living there on 911,

shutting down a bridge to ensure this guy gets to court on time. One juror was thrown out because he's a fan and wanted an autograph from El Chapo. Another dismissed because he was afraid he would be too easily identifiable as a Michael Jackson impersonator. Many have been thrown out because they were afraid. One man was thrown out because he thought he could be identified by his sandwich order. But the defense attorneys say we've got it all wrong. Listen. Guzman's lawyers say the increased

security measures create an unfair impression he is a violent man. He has pleaded not guilty to 17 counts of drug smuggling and money laundering. He's a mythical figure at this point. And if you read the books, the many books that have been written about him, even by the agents in the case, they even discuss it. They don't know what was real and what wasn't real. Guzman famously escaped from Mexican prisons twice, including once in 2015 by riding a motorcycle through a mile-long tunnel. He was recaptured six months later and then extradited to the U.S. The key to El Chapo's success is access to the U.S. market, and he gained that through a brutal war with his rival cartel, the Zetas. All these cartels, whether it's the Zetas or whether it's Sinaloa, they murder people right and left. That's

how they enforce their rules. First, he took control of the smuggling routes. Then he found clever ways to get the drugs across one of the most militarized borders in the world. So El Chapo realized pretty early on that one of his biggest challenges was to get the drugs across into the United States. And he came up with this brilliant idea of creating tunnels. The first tunnel was in the 90s. It was in Douglas, Arizona. These are million dollar structures. He brings the miners from the state across the border and they do these humongous things. They've got concrete walls. They've got electricity. They had rails and some of them were like hydraulic rails so that they could carry

massive amounts of marijuana. You are hearing really all about El Chapo and his empire that he has built over years, having direct access to the U.S. You were hearing Robert Bonner, former DEA administrator, describing how he has a chokehold on the U.S. drug trade. Right now, he is in a New York courtroom facing charges. At this moment, this exact moment, I am looking at a grisly display at a Mexican tourist hub of bodies hanging from a bridge. It's a bridge, New Mexico City, and they were hung there by the Sinaloa cartel at El Chapo's direction. Hung there in the early morning hours just before Christmas, the bodies of six men found hanging from bridges throughout northwest Mexico as a message from El

Chapo. And you don't think this is dangerous? No wonder the jurors are crying. You know, I'm thinking back on all the juries I struck to Wendy Patrick. What was your method of striking a jury and what method would you employ striking El Chapo's jury? Yeah, you know, Nancy, somebody like El Chapo is going to have two sets of problematic jurors. The first is going to be, as you mentioned, those that are scared to death for themselves and their families. Because remember, El Chapo is a shot caller. Whether or not he personally goes out and commits these heinous crimes, we don't know whether he does or not. They may not be part of this trial, but certainly he has that type of influence. The second we've also seen here, sometimes we call these people stealth jurors.

These are jurors that, like the one that asked for his autograph, want to be on the trial to write a book about it, to have media rights. These are very problematic on both ends. And so we specifically design questions that are geared to detect it. How did you find out about this trial? How much do you know? Have you ever written a book? All of the kinds of background information that would lead us to believe. You know what else? We got to worry about. You know what else we have to worry about? We have to worry about Sean Penn. Oh, yeah. Do you remember his and I'm really putting perfume on the pig here. Okay. Because this is not about what I think about Sean Penn and his misguided interview with El Chapo. But Sean Penn, the actor's name has come up over and over and over in jury selection in the very first day of jury

selection you had to find out what do you think about Sean Penn do you remember when that happened Alan Duke when Sean Penn goes deep deep into the forest and basically I guess gets drunk and high with El Chapo and that really that meeting with Gu, El Chapo, really touched off a search for El Chapo. Remember? Oh, yeah. And with the actress, in fact, who the Mexican soap opera actress who went with him. It was a bizarre situation to have a Hollywood icon like Sean Penn go. But we know Sean Penn goes some strange places.

Yeah, well, that's certainly euphemistic. To Wendy Patrick, do you recall that ill-fated interview that Sean Penn did with El Chapo? I mean, this guy is bloodthirsty. And they've got him all dressed up and looking all well manicured and groomed in the courtrooms flanked by his lawyers. You'd have no idea that he's the one that ordered these dead bodies hung upside down off bridges. Yeah, you wouldn't, Nancy. It's a plea to humanize him, the hug from the wife, really. I mean, they're trying to make him a normal human being with normal emotions, which of course he's not. They're going to learn about that during the course of the trial. But yeah, you know, people like Sean Penn and others, gosh,

remember the Richard Ramirez trial, are fascinated by these serial killers and public figures of corruption, infamous leaders, notorious gang members. It's an unfortunate part of the criminal justice system. But what they've done already is weeded out men and women who are brave enough to listen to the facts, but also sensible enough not to run far afield of the purpose they're there, which is to ensure justice is done. And right now, Sean Penn's interview with the drug lord El Chapo may come into evidence. I mean, it just never ends. Jason Oceans, the prosecution is trying to keep out certain portions of the interview. Why do you think that is? Well, you know, it's certainly Sean Penn engenders, you know, a larger following. And, you know, everyone's certainly Sean Penn engenders, you know, a larger following.

And, you know, everyone's going to be afraid of, you know, the level of influence that, as you said, you know, Hollywood stars on all of this. But, you know, critically looking at it, you know, it's like people watching a car crash. They just like to look at it. And people want to follow the Al Capones or the John Gottis and sensationalize these people beyond really what they should be, which are murderers. You know, El Chapo started with his own marijuana crop when he was just a boy, a boy. But then he moved up in the drug world. In his early 20s, he was in charge of the airplane operations for Mexican drug pen Miguel Angel Felix Gallardo. El Chapo Guzman was one of the figures. I mean, he certainly was a what I would call a key player within the Sinaloa cartel. But I don't even think at that time he was yet the major figure. He would become

that in the 90s. After Felix Gallardo's capture in 1989, El Chapo slowly took control of the entire Sinaloa cartel. No wonder the prosecution wants Sean Penn's ridiculous interview in the Rolling Stone not allowed. They want the whole thing excluded as evidence because it's filled with prejudicial statements. For instance, Sean Penn calls El Chapo, the murderer, the drug lord, a, quote, Robin Hood-like figure and the true president of Mexico. What the hay is wrong with him, Wendy Patrick? Robin Hood? Robin Hood? Yeah. Well, Nancy, you know, the defense often has to do this. They have to find some sort of a way to spin the facts, which, of course, they cannot in cases like this. And again, you know, you don't have this glamorized subculture sitting in that jury box. You've got 12 men and women that both sides agreed were going to listen to the case fairly inaccurately.

But that doesn't mean that the defense in this case or any other isn't going to attempt to sensationalize the trial by bringing in interviews with Sean Penn and any other media figures that might lend some sort of fascination to the case that would detract from the finding of his guilt. Take a listen to this. Guzman Loera, better known as El Chapo or Shorty, the world's most powerful drug trafficker, short man, big title. The Mexican drug cartels control these distribution cells throughout the United States and in Mexico and in Brazil, Europe, Australia even. From rags to riches, in less than a decade, he turned a startup operation into a multinational criminal empire.

Chapo Guzman is like the Osama Bin Laden of drug trafficking. You are hearing from CEO of crime, Marianas von Zeller. And we have one more thing to share in this podcast concerning a case we've been closely following. A week after Colorado dad Chris Watts admitted in court he killed his pregnant wife and two young daughters, his parents are still in disbelief and talking for the first time. Reporter Josh Chapin with ABC 11 TV and Raleigh-Durham conducted an exclusive interview with Ronnie and Cindy Watts at their Fayetteville, North Carolina home. It was a very hard relationship.

And as far as I'm concerned, I couldn't do anything right. Ronnie and Cindy Watts said their son Chris changed once he met Shanann. He was in sports since he was five years old up until he was 17 years old there's not one person that you can talk to that will say anything bad about this kid he was normal he wasn't he didn't have a temper he was just like his dad just easygoing rolls off his back goes on and this is my son. He is not a monster. Well, down to I just want the truth. What really happened? If he did it all,

I can live with it. If he didn't want him to fight for it. The Watson said their son's relationship with Shanann was abusive and felt she isolated Chris from his family in the time they were together. Chris's father Ronnie says he believes the initial thing Chris told police

that he killed his wife only after finding out she had strangled their CHRIS'S FATHER, RONNIE, SAYS HE BELIEVES THE INITIAL THING CHRIS TOLD POLICE... THAT HE KILLED HIS WIFE ONLY AFTER FINDING OUT SHE HAD STRANGLED THEIR DAUGHTERS. It's hard for me to believe he would hurt them girls, no matter what. The story, what he told me that night, I believed it. The way he looked at me, the way he

was crying, I believed it. WATTS AVOIDED A DEATH PENALTY PROSECUTION WITH HIS GUILTY PLEA, BUT HE'LL SPEND THE REST OF HIS LIFE IN PRISON. It saved his life and life in prison, to me, there's no difference. WATTS SAID HE'S NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM. a death penalty prosecution with his guilty plea, but he'll spend the rest of his life in prison. Save his life and life in prison, to me, there's no difference. You know, he's going to die in prison, and there's no telling what will be done to him in prison. And I just want him to fight.

Nancy Grace, Weigh In. You know, Alan, it actually pains me to hear Christopher Watts' parents speaking, and I'll tell you why. I can't recall a single felony I ever tried, and there were well over 100 of them. I've actually lost track. I can't reproduce all the cases I've tried, much less all the guilty pleas and the cases I've investigated, well over 10,000 of those. I've never had a single case go to trial where the defendants, at least the mother, if not both parents, don't come into court and insist their child typically a guy their son would never do such a thing and alan they believe with all of their heart all of their strength all of their soul all of their might that their child

is innocent and i'm the devil i understand that and i accept that i didn't get into this to win miss congeniality okay but it hurts You know, they're between a rock and a hard spot. They either accept that their son killed his pregnant wife, the unborn baby, Nico, and the two daughters, Bella and Celeste. They either accept that, that they raised that monster, or they choose to believe he is innocent and that he's being wrongfully imprisoned, that he took a guilty plea to save others' feelings, i.e. his wife's family, and that he is being mistreated by the justice system

and they rail against the injustice. So those are their two choices they have no other choice alan so they're going with he's innocent and he's being held illegally and unconstitutionally this is a huge miscarriage of justice and they're going to carry that with them the rest of their lives unless uh their psyche allows them to look at the evidence and realize their son is a mass killer. I don't know if they can ever bring themselves to do that, but I've seen this play out so many times, Alan. I can't count them. And as much as I think the parents are wrong, I feel so bad for them. And you know, when I lift up a prayer for her family, Shanann's family,

I think of his parents as well and what they're going through. And remember, Alan, he pled guilty. It's not like he's saying, I'm innocent, I'm innocent, I didn't do it. He said, I did it. Okay, so that's going to be a real hurdle for that parents to overcome. The parents of the murdered wife, Shanann Watts, issued a statement in reply to what Chris's parents said. It says, in part, the parents of Chris Watts gave an interview in which they attempted to defend their son. In doing so, they felt the need to make vicious, grotesque, and utterly false statements about Shanann. Their false statements, however, hurtful and inaccurate, will never alter the truth about Shanann. Their false statements, however, hurtful and inaccurate,

will never alter the truth about Shanann and will never alter the truth about the crimes committed by their son, Chris Watts. Shanann's memory and reputation deserve to be protected and her family is fully prepared to do so. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.