Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Socialite Michelle Troconis Struts into Court, 'Was on Phone' as Lover Hid Wife's Bloody Clothes in 30 TRASHCANS

Episode Date: January 11, 2024

Jennifer Dulos and Fotis Dulos marry in 2004. Thirteen years later, the marriage fails, and the couple file for divorce. The circumstances are anything but amiable. Hundreds of motions are filed during the two-year proceedings. In 2017, Jennifer Dulos files for an emergency order for full custody of their five children. She alleges that her husband's behavior is "irrational, unsafe, bullying, threatening and controlling. She says she is afraid for not only her safety but the physical and emotional well-being of the children. Moving forward to the Friday before Memorial Day, Jennifer Dulos drops her children off at school near her New Canaan Connecticut home. She had an 11 a.m. appointment that morning, which she missed. No one hears from her for 10 hours. That night, Jennifer Dulos is reported missing by her family and friends, and the search begins. When investigators arrived at Jennifer Dulos’ home, blood stains were visible not only on the garage floor but garbage cans and a car parked in the garage. The car in the garage was not the Chevy Suburban the mom was known to drive. Police initiated a search for her vehicle. A little over an hour later and just three miles from the home, officers find the abandoned Suburban by Waveny Park. It contains blood evidence too. Back at the home, investigators determine that someone tried to clean the concrete floor. Officers canvas the park, hand out fliers, use canines, and do aerial searches. And most dramatically, perform video searches of local CCTV cameras. Surveillance cameras capture a man appearing to be Fotis Dulos disposing of garbage bags in as many as 30 receptacles in the area. A woman can be seen in the passenger seat of the man's car. Police recover clothes and household items with Jennifer Dulos' blood on it, in trash cans around Hartford. Specifically, the bags contained women’s clothing, plastic zip-ties, and a white T-shirt; all of the items were stained. Police also find a stained utility knife, a bath towel, and cleaning items such as a kitchen sponge. The woman in the vehicle with Fotis Dulos is identified as his live-in girlfriend Michelle Troconis. Police search warrants say Michelle Troconis identified photos of the surveillance videos as Fotis Dulos and admitted that she was the woman pictured. She confirmed multiple stops were made to discard bags, but she denies knowing what was in them. Fotis Dulos and Troconis, 44, are arrested, and charged with tampering with or fabricating physical evidence and hindering prosecution. They both pleaded not guilty.  Joining Nancy Grace Today: Mark Sherman - Managing Partner of Mark Sherman Law,  Dr. Jeff Kieliszewski -Forensic Psychologist, Author: "Darksides;" YouTube: Dr. Jeff Kieliszewski Robin Dreeke – Behavior Expert & Retired FBI Special Agent / Chief of the FBI Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program; Author: “Sizing People Up: A Veteran FBI Agents Manual for Behavior Prediction;” Twitter: @rdreek Dr. Kendall Crowns – Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth) and Lecturer: University of Texas Austin and Texas Christian University Medical School Jeff Gentry – Forensics-Crime Scene Investigator, Certified bloodstain pattern analyst and death investigator, fmr. toxicology lab analyst; Author: “A Visual Guide to Bloodstain Pattern Analysis: Bloodstain Pattern Analysis for Death and Crime Scene Investigators;” TikTok: @jeffreygentryBPA, Facebook: Jeff Gentry Bloodstain Pattern Analyst Jen Smith - Chief Reporter for DailyMail.com; Twitter: @jen_e_smith   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Yes, I knew better up here in my head, but I was one of the few that thought there was a chance, a slim chance, a tiny chance, a sliver of a chance that missing Connecticut mom of five, Jennifer Dulos, could still be alive. And then her conniving husband, Fotis Dulos, and his mistress, Michelle Chaconis, had to just blow it all up for me when I found out the things that they were caught on camera disposing of in various locations all over town were bloody clothing, rags, items. Then I knew, I still didn't want to know, but I knew that this mom is dead.

Have we found her body? H-E-L-L-N-O. But no body, no case. That is absolutely not true. The mistress, Traconis, heading to trial right now. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us here at Crime Stories and on Sirius XM 111. Just to jog your memory, not that you legal eagles. You know, Mark Sherman joining high-profile lawyer. And don't get mad, Mark, but I'm going to introduce you as the son of Mickey Sherman, another great trial lawyer and friend. This is your jurisdiction. In court, we try to put it nicely, say, Your Honor, may I refresh the witness's recollection? That's a legal term of art, right, Mark Sherman? Correct, correct.

Well, look, I'm here in the courthouse. It's a zoo here, Nancy. There's 50 cameras and the evidence is getting started today. They expect it to go about seven weeks. You know, everyone's really anxious to hear how the state's going to start off. I can't wait, but I can tell how we're going to start off by refreshing everyone's recollection. Take a listen. 9-1-1, what...location of your emergency?

Yeah, I'm worried about my wife and kids because they left to go to New York and I haven't been able to get in touch with them. Okay, they were going to New York. What's the license plate on the car? Excuse me? What's the license plate on the car? I have to get this for you okay what's who's the car registered to it's uh registered to my wife's name jennifer

dulos spell the last name for me uh dulos d-u-l-o-s but none uh the robo is not answering uh they're not answering their cell phones um i've been texting and i see that the texts are being delivered but nobody's responding to me okay do you have like a the find your iphone app or anything like that uh what okay what's your name it's a focusis, F-O-T-I-S. Doesn't know about Find My iPhone. Now, okay, maybe someone like my mom who lives with us, she has an iPhone. She doesn't know about finding an iPhone, but she's 92.

How can you not know about Find My iPhone? You know how many cases have been solved with Find My iPhone? Now, what happened that day? It was the Friday before Memorial Day. Take a listen to this. The Friday before Memorial Day, Jennifer Dulos dropped her children off at school near her Cannon, Connecticut home. She had an 11 a.m. appointment, which she missed. No one hears from her for 10 hours. That night, Jennifer Dulos is reported missing by her family and friends, and the search begins. With me in all-star panel, you've already met high-profile lawyer Mark Sherman joining us from the courthouse. But first,

I now want to go to Jen Smith, the chief investigative reporter for DailyMail.com, who has also been covering the case from the get-go. It's New Canaan, Connecticut. And I've driven through New Canaan, Connecticut several, many times. And it's about an hour 10, hour 15, maybe ish from Manhattan. Long story short, I drove through because it was too expensive for me to even breathe the air there. A lot of rich people. You ever seen New Canaan? I mean, every house looks like a mansion.

And that is where Jen Smith, Jennifer and Fotis Dulos lived with their five children, correct? Yeah, pretty much, Nancy. As you say, this is where the wealthy families of Manhattan go when they want to get a bit of fresh air, very expensive fresh air, and send their kids to these prestigious schools up in the Connecticut suburbs. So Jennifer and Fotis Dulos really fit the description of an incredibly privileged family. She herself comes from money. Her own father was a kind of financial wizard, very well known in Wall Street. And Fotis Doulos was a property developer at the time. He got some help from his wife's generous and wealthy family. perfume on the pig jen smith i don't know if they have that phrase over in the uk but um perfume on the pig jennifer dulos father worked his rear end off and was brilliant financially he worked he made the money not photos do less now you said something about property development he ran a construction company my my uncle built houses out in the

mud and the dirt and the rain building houses but you said he got help that's where the perfume on the pig comes in he got what, what, over a million dollars? He got Jennifer's father to fork over money to keep his construction business afloat? Isn't that true? Yeah, that is true. Help is probably an understatement. Jennifer's father really helped them, I think. Well, her, right?

He was looking after his daughter, I think. Well, her, right? He was looking after his daughter, I suppose. But he really bankrolled this construction company, what he's described as property development. He's obviously trying to put carving on his own pig there. And yeah, Jennifer's father really helped him stay afloat for years while he was building properties, completing various projects up in New Canaan and surrounding areas in Connecticut. Joining me is behavior expert, former FBI special agent, chief of the FBI counterintelligence behavioral analysis program and author of Sizing People Up, a veteran FBI agent's manual for behavior prediction.

So, Robin, have you ever heard of routine evidence? Yeah, because it really comes into someone's life arc and their baseline of their normal behavior that they exhibit every day. No doubt. Yeah, it's like this. To Mark Sherman joining us, managing partner of the Mark Sherman Law Firm. Mark, for instance, if Jackie Howard was not in this studio an hour before I come in here, viciously complaining about something, but getting everything ready, that would be completely opposite of her routine.

She's always here and it's always ready. So if I came down here and plopped into the chair and there was no Jackie right there with me, I would know she was either dead or in the hospital. OK, that is routine evidence. She has a routine and Jennifer Dulos had a routine. She's the mother of five. She does pick up and drop off every day. And so for her to go missing for 10 hours and not pick up the phone, that's a problem, Mark Sherman. Sure, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the defendant killed her. But I agree with you. It gets in as long as the state can get first,

first-hand evidence of that routine. It can't just be speculation. It's got to be someone with direct knowledge, first-hand knowledge of that routine. You know what?

You just did, Mark Sherman. And I'm so happy you did it. Joining me is Dr. Jeff Kielczewski, forensic psychologist, author of Dark Sides. Dr. Kielczewski, thank you for being with us. Did you hear what Sherman just did? And that's what the jury's going to do. He said, well, wait a minute, just because she's been gone 10 hours, that doesn't mean the husband did it. See, that's the first thing that went to his mind, Dr. Jeff.

Well, I think this really speaks to the idea when you talk about routine evidence and understanding that this routine has been disrupted. And who would have knowledge of this person's routine? And it could be her ex-husband knowing what time the children will be dropped off at school, what time she typically will go back. And oftentimes when someone's planning out a crime, they're obviously going to try to learn the person's routine to know when they can sort of deploy to commit that crime. You're so right, and I love the way that Mark Sherman's mind immediately went, well, that doesn't mean the husband did it.

Methinks thou doth protest too much, Mark Sherman. Hey, Mark is joining us at the courthouse. Mark, you said there's 50 cameras. What, does everybody want to get a look at Fotisis Dulos, his mistress, Michelle Traconis. You know, Nancy, it's a town of 20,000 people. It's a Tony town. It's a compelling story. There's so many moving pieces here that just make this case compelling.

And it's really grabbing the attention of a lot of people around the country. Well, I guess so, because everybody wants justice. Why are we so concerned? Because massive amounts of blood turn up in Jennifer Dulos' garage. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace jen smith joining me chief investigative reporter dailymail.com jen who exactly i just heard photos doulos blah blah blah is he the first one that called 9-1-1 about her disappearance no he's not actually so on the on the day of Jennifer Duluth's appearance, by this time, Jennifer and Fotis were not living together. They were in the midst of a really acrimonious divorce and custody battle. The first people who alerted the authorities to the fact that she had

vanished were her friends. They were concerned about the fact that on this day, she had missed several appointments that she was due to attend after dropping off the kids. What were the appointments, Jen Smith? You know, I'm not sure if they were anything super out of the ordinary. We're talking about routine things. She wasn't really working at the time, so it was things along the lines of like dentist appointments. Okay, hold on, hold on, little girl. Jen Smith, do you have

children i do not okay well hopefully one day you'll have that joy that i have now of course before i had children i hated it when people said that uh but now that i have children i found out i was never happy i just thought i was happy my point i'm leading up to jen smith two children i'm like exhausted by the end of the day i fall asleep sitting in, two children. I'm like exhausted. By the end of the day, I fall asleep sitting in a chair straight up. I'm like, whoa, what happened? This woman is working, trust me, in the home. But you're right.

It wasn't like showing up at the office for all I know. You're right. Yeah. It could have been a PTA meeting. It could have been a cookie sale. I don't know what it was, but they were onto it. She was not, she wasn't due to attend business meetings. But of course, a mother of five is a very busy woman working a lot harder than, you know, many people who are in an office all day. Of course, that's not what I meant by any stretch of the imagination. But these were, you know,

what's relevant here is that these are piecemeal little things. Oh, hey, I know what they are. I've got it in my notes right here, Jen. And also, you know, she was a writer. She did write for Patch.com. And she was seen returning home at 8.05 a.m. on a neighbor's security camera. But it was two doctor's appointments in New York City. That's what she missed. I thought it two doctor's appointments in New York City. That's what she missed.

I thought it was doctor's appointments. And in my notes, I've got that the nanny, Lauren Almeida, and another friend, they were the ones to first report her missing. Okay, so that's the answer to that. All right, let's get to the blood. Take a listen to Crime Online's Dave Mack. When investigators arrived at Jennifer Dulo's home, bloodstains are visible not only on the garage floor, but garbage cans and a car parked in the garage. The car in the garage was not the Chevy Suburban the mom was known to drive.

Police initiated a search for her vehicle. A little over an hour later, in just three miles from the home, officers find the abandoned Suburban by Waveney Park. It contains blood evidence too. Back at the home, investigators determined someone had tried to clean the concrete floor. Okay, I love nothing better than talking about blood evidence and joining me in addition to a renowned medical examiner, Dr. Kendall Crowns is Jeff Gentry. Jeff is a forensic certified blood stain pattern analyst and an ABMDI. What is that? American Board of Medico Legal Death Investigators. He's author of A Visual Guide to Bloodstain Pattern Analysis. What could be better than that book?

A Visual Guide to Bloodstain Pattern Analysis, Bloodstain Pattern Analysis for Death and Crime Scene Investigators. And that's not all. He couldn't stop himself. He's also the author of Death Investigation, Information to Obtain During a Forensic Death Investigation. I know what I'm doing tonight. Jeff Gentry, thank you for being with us.

I'm going to follow up and see how what Dr. Kendall crowns, what his analysis is as an overlay, if he agrees or disagrees with you, Jeff Gentry. So we're having a little pop quiz, Jeff Gentry. So he is going to be your teacher. He's going to grade your answer. They say that, that someone had tried to clean up the cement floor. How could they tell that? So first, what I read was that there was blood spatter. Blood spatter is indicative of trauma or force being applied to blood. So right away, that tells you that something really bad happened there, that there was some kind of a violent act.

There was also blood transfers, meaning that these blood stains were transferred to different locations throughout the garage. So that's also indicative of a struggle or somebody was fighting back after they were bleeding. Then on top of all of that, you've got multiple areas of cleanup. So the way that they can tell that blood has been cleaned up is it appears diluted or altered. We all know what normal blood looks like. It's red, it's kind of brownish. But then when you apply either chemicals or water to it, it's going to change the appearance. So that's how you can tell that blood has been cleaned up or altered. So it's actually quite easy if you have experience and seen bloodstains

on a regular basis and doing the analysis. But it can really tell you a lot. It can tell you the events that transpired during a violent act or a bloody crime scene. And I use it all the time in my scenes. Jeff Gentry, another thing that I like about you, and you remind me a great deal of Dr. Crowns, you're so humble and modest. No, it's not, quote, really easy. Most people would walk in and see absolutely nothing. You, however, and expert crime scene investigators would spot spatter. Sometimes it's a mist. Sometimes there's a mist of blood. Sometimes the spatter is down by the floorboards. And they're just tiny specks.

Sometimes you have to bring in luminol and look at every inch of the wall and floor. I wonder if they looked at the sides of the car that was still parked there. Was that car parked there when Jennifer Dulos was murdered? Was the lover Michelle Chacon is standing by watching but listen to this and correct me if I'm wrong Jen Smith Daily Mail large stains I'm reading from my notes so I want to make sure this is right large stains of Jennifer's blood were discovered in her garage on trash cans and in her master bedroom garage master bedroom of her home the concrete floor to cat trash

cans and the passenger door of a Range Rover. Shoe impressions, according to cops, indicate someone had attempted to clean up the blood. And I'm taking that to mean that there were bloody footprints, much as we saw in the O.J. Simpson double murder debacle. Is that correct, Jen Smith? Yeah, that's absolutely right. And the most significant area was the area in the garage. There was so much blood or traces of blood there

that it led police and prosecutors to believe that she was injured to the extent that there was no way she could have survived. There was that much blood there. That's what they found. That's exactly where I was headed. You read my mind, Jen Smith, again. Dr. Kendall Crowns, I mentioned earlier, chief medical examiner, Tarrant County, that's Fort Worth, never a lack of business, lecturer, University of Texas, Austin, and Texas Christian University Medical School. Dr. Kendall Crowns, what does that really mean? That there was such a huge quantity of blood in her garage. They knew she's dead. She could not survive this.

So anytime you see a lot of blood in a crime scene in no body, you know, the loss of blood can result in death. So once you see enough to equal about 30 to 40 percent of whatever circulating blood you would have in your body, which would be about close to a gallon, you know someone's died. Are you saying you would find a gallon of blood on the garage floor or there is a gallon of blood? Think of a milk jug gallon. That's how much blood is in our body, a gallon? No, no, that's about 40% of your circulating blood. So about roughly two and a half gallons of blood. Well, where's the rest of the blood?

I thought it was all circulating. Well, if someone's stabbed or beaten, it'll come out of their body and be all over the crime scene. So if you see what you estimate about 40% of their circulating blood outside of their body and be all over the crime scene so if you see 40 percent what you estimate about 40 percent of their circulating blood outside of their body you know they're dead so you're saying it would take what a gallon of blood close to a gallon garage floor for them to know she's dead correct and plus it's in multiple locations who's this this is Yeah, I was just going to come to you.

We're going to hear about it in court. But go ahead. What were you saying? I was going to say, I understand all these points and they're valid, but what does this have to do with Michelle Traconis?

Are we trying Fotos Dulos today and in this trial, or are we trying Michelle Traconis? And I don't know if the defense is going to want the jury to think Fotos did this, but Michelle had nothing to do with it and didn't know anything. I haven't even gotten to Michelle Triconis.

She was in the car and admits to being in the car while Fotis Dulos was throwing out clothing. I think, what was it, Jackie? A shirt. Jim Smith, wasn't he caught on video going all around town throwing away what a bra shirt bloody rags and that blood matches back to his wife wife jennifer dulles dulos the mother of his five children and miss thing is sitting right there in the car while he's going from trash can to trash can. Yes, no. Yes, she was in the car when, no, she says they were on their way to get a kind of late afternoon evening coffee in town.

Whoa, whoa, wait, late afternoon coffee? Yes. No, that's not a bit questionable. I don't know what is. 30 trash cans, Jen. Was that on the way? Yeah. 30 trash cans? Jen, was that on the way? Yeah. 30 trash cans.

That's what he says. He dropped off, drop off the trash. And she claims or insists actually multiple times that she has no idea what was, what was in the bag. Yeah. Her.

That's what we're talking about. Sherman, the one that was having sex with the married man with five children, her, her, the one you're defending. That doesn't make her a killer, Nancy. That doesn't make her a killer.

And obviously, that's obvious. But I don't care who has sex with anybody. Cats and dogs sleeping together. Don't care. Couldn't care less. What I do care about is who killed her and who was part of it. But Nancy, I expect everyone downstairs in this courthouse to think she had something to do with it. But is there enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt? Is there enough of this circumstantial evidence to convict her? I think that's going to be the issue in this trial.

I don't think anyone's walking out of there thinking she was an innocent bystander here. But is there enough circumstantial evidence to convict her? Was I snoring? Oh, okay. I'm sorry. I fell asleep during that. Right. Okay. Now, back to the blood. Dr. Kendall Crowns, I'm just imagining it's like a refocus, get us out of the weeds where Mark Sherman just led us, which is his job. He learned it from his dad, Mickey Sherman. That's why he won all those cases. Let's get back on the blood, and then I'll deal with Miss Thing, Michelle Traconis, who's supposed to go on trial. A gallon of blood. If I see a gallon of blood on a cement floor, out of the garage, I know somebody's dead. Is that right, Dr. Crowns?

That's correct. It's a little less than a gallon, but a gallon, you're dead. Wow. So that tells me that it wasn't an asphyxiation. It wasn't a strangulation. It was either blunt trauma or stabbing or shooting. That's the only way. Can you think of anything else, Dr. Crowns? No, those would be the main ones. I can't think of one trauma, stabbing, shooting.

Yeah, that it wouldn't be anything else that would create that much blood. I'm so tempted to use a curse word, Robin Dreek, behavior expert, former FBI special agent. Listen to this. Chief of the FBI Counterintelligence Behavior Analysis Program. Wow. Robin Dreek. I'm just thinking the word I wanted to say was dumb. A.S.S.

But I gave up cursing when I had the twins, so I can't say dumbass. Because we saw in O.J. Simpson, you could see from the crime scene photos, you'd have to be on the scene to see bloody footprints. And here, there are traces of bloody footprints. There was so much blood, he was actually walking through it. So one thing you have to look at, too too with the blood is not only the volume of blood, but what type of bloodstains. So like I mentioned before, blood spatter is indicative of trauma. So even if you don't have necessarily that entire volume of blood that would indicate death, you have to look at how these bloodstains were created. And if they were created by force, that implies that there was some traumatic event. And then also is I start thinking about how did that

bleeding victim leave that crime scene? And if you don't see that bloody victim's footprints or evidence of them crawling or being dragged out of the scene, you know that they did not leave on their own free will. So that is very much consistent with that person being incapacitated and put inside of a vehicle and then driven away from that crime scene. And it's very common in no-body cases where there's blood. Well put. How do you tell the age of old blood? Mark Sherman, you know what, little boy.

I'm 50, Nancy. I'm 50. Why would age of the blood matter, though? I mean, if there's a lot of blood all at the scene of all of a similar time frame, why would it matter, age or not? Well, my argument would be that if it's from an older date that's not so recent, it does cast some doubt into whether the blood came from this past weekend or a week and a half ago. Mark Sherman, let me ask you one question. Does two plus two equal four in your world? Yes. Okay. So she takes the children to school that morning. Then she disappears. There's a huge pool of blood, her blood in her garage floor, in the master bedroom and elsewhere.

She was just alive. 10 hours later, she's gone and there's a pool of blood. Wow. Whose could it be? Do you think she bled out a week before and managed to keep walking? I mean, I appreciate what you're trying to do, Mark Sherman, but really? Don't make me take you back to law school, OK? Because I will. No, I'm just I'm referring to the minor, the minor spatters, not the pool of the blood, obviously. I know there were different places in different locations

that there was some blood. And there's another issue, Mark Sherman, and yes, I'm pulling your leg, but that's what successful defense attorneys do. That's actually their job to find, poke little holes in the state's case

until suddenly there's a flood of doubt coming through those holes. And that's what he's doing. And that's what makes him a good defense attorney. But in a yes, no, Dr. Kendall Crowns, if blood had pooled that morning after she came back home from drop off around 815, 830 in 10 hours, the blood would not be completely dried up. Would it still be tacky? It can still be tacky. I mean, that's a significant amount of blood. It won't be completely dried in that time frame.

Okay. As Mark Sherman wants us to, you asked for it and now you're going to get it. You know what Oscar Wilde said? Be careful what you ask, my dear, for you will surely get it. And now you're getting it. What does the mistress have to do with this? Look, again, I don't care who sleeps with who, but when a dead body pops up, uh-huh, I'm giving it to you. Both barrels.

Take a listen to our Cut 5. Multiple agencies took part in the search. Officers canvassed the park, handed out flyers, and used canines in aerial searches. And most dramatically, video searches of local CCTV cameras. Surveillance cameras capture a man appearing to be Fotis Dulles disposing of garbage bags in as many as 30 receptacles in the area. A woman can be seen in the passenger seat of the man's car. Police recover clothes and household items with Jennifer Dulles' blood on it in trash cans

around Hartford. Specifically, the bags contained women's clothing, plastic zip ties, and a white t-shirt, all stained. Police also found a stained utility knife, a bath towel, and cleaning items such as a kitchen sponge. Oh, he's a neatnik. He's cleaning up. Blood. Now listen to Sidney Sumner, Crime Online. The woman in the vehicle with Fotis Dulos is identified as his live-in girlfriend, Michelle Chaconis. Police search warrants say Michelle Chaconis identified photos of the surveillance videos as Fotis Dulos and admitted that she was the woman pictured. She confirmed multiple stops were made to discard bags, but she denies knowing what was in them.

Dulos and Traconis, 44, are arrested, charged with tampering or fabricating physical evidence and hindering prosecution. They both pleaded not guilty. And to Jen Smith, chief investigative reporter, DailyMail.com. Her response is, oh, I was busy on my phone. I don't know what happened. B.S. Jen. Indeed. I mean it's so suspicious stopping at this many trash cans this many locations but she's insisting she didn't

ask any questions of this man that she was living with and as you say was just looking on her phone. Now you have to of course wonder whether or not she is completely making all of that up, likely, or you have to ask whether or not she really was that naive to just be turning a blind eye, not questioning this man who, by all accounts, is very assertive.

My head is actually hurting. And I don't think so. I'm sure, Mark Sherman, that you don't think so. I'm sure that's you. No, no, it's Robin. Okay, Robin. Listen, Robin Drake, FBI behavior analyst. When my husband, this is like eating a dirt sandwich for me.

When my husband, who drives, I call him Granny Lynch because he drives so slowly. I'm like, can you move this tub of tin for Pete's sake when we're trying to get somewhere? If he stopped 30 times to throw things in trash, you don't think I would be standing on my head in the driver's seat? And not only that, when he takes out a bloody bra or T-shirt and throws that away. Yeah, I'm going to ask a question robin drink 100 you know and and at the same time i acknowledge the fact that it's circumstantial but what you have here is and we said at the very beginning you have a life arc and a baseline of her michelle traconis her personal professional life for her entire life has all been about situational

awareness because of the job she had. It's incongruent with naivete. It's incongruent with lying and deceiving yourself with the types of jobs and people she's been around her entire life. So for her to all of a sudden say, oh, now I'm oblivious to this new behavior that entered my life of him throwing out all these bags. It makes no sense. It doesn't hold any water because it's completely incongruent with how she's lived her life for this time. And there is another issue to Dr. Jeff Kelshefsky. I love security surveillance and I'm looking right now on my little phone at Fotis Dulos with a bunch of stuff in his hands going toward a public trash can. And guess who has gotten out of the car?

Michelle Triconis. There's no way. I mean, I'm looking at her. She's out of the car. He's out and she's out of the car. And he is like three feet from her, maybe five feet, throwing away bloody clothes. So, Dr. Jeff, how can she say, I didn't know what was going on? Well, you know, you see this, we already saw this

with Fotis, this approach to lying by acting naive. Juries do not, they look at what typical people would do in typical situations. And would it be typical that you would be so naive that when there's multiple dozens of stops with one garbage bag being put into different trash receptacles, are you really that naive that you wouldn't wonder what's going on? So, again, you see this a lot where people don't know how to lie after a murder has been committed and they try to fall into this. I was naive and I didn't know what was going on, but the jury never really buys that very often. Well, the judge dealt a real blow to the defense by suppressing all of her so-called searches, phone calls, texts on her phone while she was in the car. But let me just explain. Actually, I'll let Dave Mack explain it, what the state's theory is.

And again, we are waiting right now for the trial of mistress Michelle Chaconis to start. Listen to our cut eight. Investigators believe Dulos took a Toyota Tacoma without permission driving to New Canaan. In a video caught by a passing school bus, the Tacoma is seen on the side of the road near Waveney Park. There's a bicycle in the back and it's approximately 100 feet from where Jennifer Dulos' suburban would be found. Police believe Dulos rode the bicycle to Jennifer Dulos' house, lying in wait until she returned from taking the children to school. Then he assaulted her in the

garage. He then drove the suburban with Jennifer Dulos dead or unconscious inside to the park and transferred the body into the Tacoma. Just five days later, police find video of Fotis Dulos again driving the Tacoma without permission, heading to a car wash. Police were able to find traces of Jennifer Dulos' DNA on the vehicle's passenger seat of the Tacoma. The man who owns the truck, Paul Weljimini, is among the 250 people who may be called to testify. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. So let me understand, Jen Smith. POTUS Dulos barred an employee's vehicle without their permission. And now Jennifer Dulos' DNA is on the vehicle's passenger seat of that Tacoma.

There's no reason her DNA should be on somebody's, the back passenger seat, as I recall it, of the Taco, the Toyota Tacoma. A guy she doesn't really even know. And he, Dulos, borrowed the truck and was driving around with Michelleelle traconis in the front seat yes no jen smith yeah absolutely and you know talk about horrible bosses right i just want to point out that this employee never been a suspect never been arrested never been accused in any way of having any involvement in this like the uh sound clip you just played pointed out he may well be called to testify. He's been very cooperative with the police. It really speaks to kind of the character of O.T. Sewell, right? If he's willing to involve very innocent people, including his employees in this, it kind of shows you what type of man he was. And when it comes to murder,

there's no defense i was just quote along for the ride i want you to listen to police interviewing michelle traconis and arcut 21 oh by the way she's worried during the interview not about jennifer doulos being murdered she's worried that photos doulos her lover wanted to get back with his wife listen to this if he can kill the mother of his five children somebody who appears to have been wanting to get back with that mom according to his phone yeah sorry i didn't get it i said here he kills the mother of his five children and according to his you know from what we hear from other people and his phone he will he appeared to have been wanting to get back with that woman who wanted to get back to her

yeah the man you sleep with every night text message to her yeah she's not like wow jennifer dulos has been murdered there's a gallon of her blood on the floor. No, she's like, who wanted to get back with her? That's all she cares about. Is she insane? I don't really get it, Robin Drake. The woman has been slaughtered. Her five children are going to grow up without a mom.

And she's like, he wanted to get back with her. No way. It just shows that she the behavior is indicative of the fact that the death is not a shock to her. And the self-centeredness in her statements. Let's hear more from the mistress, Michelle Triconis. Again, not caring at all about the dead mom of five, but all consumed with the fact that Fotis Doulos, Fotis Doulos, that lying piece of crap, she's all concerned he wanted to get back with his wife. Listen to our cut 23.

We have his phone. We have everything. I know, but for what? Michelle, Michelle, what he told you. Let me tell you something about Fotis. I didn't know. Yeah, no, Michelle. Michelle, we're trying to tell you.

We want to tell you something that everyone in this room is probably going to agree with. Foes lies to everyone. And the reason he lies to everyone is he cares about one person in the world, himself. And that's himself. He didn't care about his first wife. He didn't care about his second wife. He doesn't care about you. He says all kinds of things to all kinds of people to get what he wants

okay he manipulates he controls we have no doubt he did that to you he lies to you so i know you didn't know i'm trying to like try and explain to you so he owes you he feels he owes you nothing if he could put this murder on you, he would do it in a second. Do you not? You can hear her in the background going. She only starts crying when they talk about him trying to get back with his wife. That's all this woman cares about. And I want to also play.

You're hearing Michelle Tricotis herself speaking. And I want to let you hear what who was that talking either Robin Drake or Jeff Gentry about calling her. It was Robin about calling her the most hated woman in America. She's not crying about the five children now without a mother. Listen. Have you looked at the news at all? Have you seen your face plastered? I'll be honest with you, you're probably one of the most hated women in America right now.

And I'm not being mean. So this is like the golden ticket. If you know where he could have done something and could have, where he frequents, if you could tip us off, maybe he said something, ingest something in passing that you can say, you know what? That's what I'm saying. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that.

I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. could have done something and could have where he frequents if you could tip us off maybe he said something to ingest something in passing that you can say you know what that rings a bell maybe all right but jen smith dailymail.com she never did she has to this date never given up where she thinks jennifer dulos's body is. Yeah, correct. She is absolutely

maintaining that she knows nothing about what happened to Jennifer Dulos and insisting that she was never made part of any form of cover-up to assist Fotis Dulos. Jump in, Mark Sherman. Yeah, I still don't see evidence that she intentionally assisted Fotis with the actual murder. If you want to talk about covering it up, there's a very strong argument from the state. That's what hindering prosecution is. The driving around, the dumping the bags, the alibi scripts, but where no one has pointed to anything that said she was aware she was going to be killed and that she participated in that. That's actually a really good point. What about it, Dr. Jeff Koleshevsky? To go back to an earlier point where the idea when you're trying to get information out of someone during an interview, you know, it's like these detectives

tried to put her in a position where she was going to have an emotional reaction towards spite and want to rat out her boyfriend. But to a point that was made earlier they didn't really give her an opportunity sort of an off-ramp to get out of this and when the points have been brought up about okay this woman was murdered she's a mother of five children in those types of situations you want to give an off-ramp that maybe gives her an opportunity to show if there is any compassion towards this situation. And that you sort of approach it and you feel bad for her that she's caught up in this. So can you provide us more information? They try to put her into a position where she's going to be spiteful towards this man that she apparently loves.

And that's a hard sell. But again, they didn't give her an opportunity or provide her an off ramp by showing a little bit of, if even fake compassion towards her, that, oh, we're so sorry, you're caught up in this situation. Hey, we want to help you get out of this. Tell us what really happened. Okay, let me let me throw that to him. Robin, jump in. Yeah, so to the point exactly when you're interviewing someone and trying to inspire confession and offering that off ramp the off ramp's got to be in terms of what's important to that individual and a lot of times you guess at it and they guessed at it and missed the mark and that's why she never took

the golden ticket she had no idea what that golden ticket was. Dr. Kendall Crown's way in place. Well, I would just say this is you have a lot of the blood at the scene. You've got multiple trash bags in the back of a truck that isn't his. There's blood in the truck and he's disposing of body parts as he's driving about this affluent suburb with his girlfriend slash whatever you want to call her on her phone, not paying attention. Somehow I find it odd that she had no idea what was going on and what he was up to. But that's, of course, my opinion. But it's hard to dispose of a body. And the way that they've not been able to find it, he had to have cut her up into pretty small pieces and somehow disposed of her torso with nobody noticing, including the person in the chair next to him

in the vehicle that he was disposing the body with. Jeff Gentry, what about it? I actually have a question related to Michelle's involvement. So this was obviously a planned murder. It was very clear. But with her having generated notes with Fotis about the alibi, couldn't that be considered involvement in the murder, even if she didn't necessarily directly participate in killing her? Well, you're absolutely correct, Jeff Gentry. What about it, Jen Smith? The notes, we haven't even gotten to them. Yeah. So when Fotis Doulos was trying to establish his alibi for the morning of Jennifer Doulos' disappearance, he enlisted

the support of his girlfriend, Michelle Chaconis, and asked her to walk him through exactly what they had done that morning, where he was, when he was there, kind of additional timestamps so that they could hand it over to the police. They literally concocted the story together of where he was.

Now, the question, obviously, is whether or not it was a true story. Michelle insists that she didn't lie and he was everywhere that they claimed he was. But it's fishy to have to sit down together and put together the timeline on the morning of your wife's murder, you would surely know where you were. You wouldn't need to confer with anybody about it if you have nothing to hide. That is the state's case. That's what hindering prosecution is. It's rendering assistance to someone who has committed a murder. And I think that's where she has the exposure. The trial's set to start. We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.