Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Socialite Mom Posts " I Have the Greatest Kids!" then murders them both in cold blood.

Episode Date: September 13, 2019

Marsha Edwards kills her two adult children after telling the world how wonderful they were. With Nancy Grace today to discuss the case: Jason Oshins  New York Defense Attorney ;    Jeff Cortese   Former FBI Special Agent; Karen Smith  Forensics Expert,  Bare Bones Consulting ; Dr. Robi Ludwig, and reporter Dave Mack. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Well, police say this is the case of a 58-year-old woman who shot and killed her adult son and daughter inside her home apparently yesterday. The woman then shot and killed herself. It's a story breaking hearts from Cobb County to Atlanta City Hall. Marsha Edwards is the woman on the left, the mother of daughter Aaron and son Christopher. Police say the mother fired the shots that killed all three Wednesday night. We didn't hear anything. There was no sign of any, you know, violence happening.

Talia Cartal lives next door to the Cobb County Condo. Police visited Wednesday evening. Cartal is a neighbor who'd gotten to know and appreciate the family. Just a really nice family. Children, Aaron and Chris, had exceedingly promising futures, just really bright, nice, kind people. A mother from a prominent Atlanta family shoots dead her son and daughter. This is just hours after she posts to Instagram following her return from a vacation to Italy. I could not ask for better children. What happened in this wealthy gated community of Vinings Park East? This woman guns down her two children, her husband, a prominent orthopedic surgeon. And this is just hours after posting photos on Facebook regarding her vacation in Italy with her daughter.

Prior to that, she had been in Miami with her son. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Take a listen to this. Marsha, the mother who fired the shots, had been married to Christopher Edwards, a surgeon who leads the Atlanta Housing Authority Board. The family is also longtime friends with Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms. Aaron Edwards was an intern in the mayor's office last summer. Chris Edwards was a current employee in the mayor's communications office. In a statement, Bottoms said in part, Derek and I joined the greater Atlanta community in mourning the loss of three members of the beloved Edwards family.

Chris and Aaron were beautiful, vibrant, and brilliant young adults whom we had the pleasure of knowing their entire lives. They filled the lives of all who met them with joy, compassion, and kindness. Well-educated, fantastic, wonderful, just bright people. Yeah, which makes it, you know, a lot harder just to understand where, you know went wrong what happened what caused this snap i don't know if i'd refer to it as a snap um because under the law isn't this right with me our renowned defense attorney jason oceans joining me out of new york when you have the time to go get a gun to load the gun to point the gun to to point the gun, to pull the trigger. I mean, intent under

the law can be formed in the twinkling of an eye. She killed both of her children. She shot them dead around 6 p.m. in the evening. That's plenty of time to form intent. Yeah, absolutely, Nancy. You know, there doesn't seem to be anything that intervened in some way to be some sort of, you know, factor regarding that. Not that we're aware of now. So it does seem to some degree that there was an element of planning to this or preparedness at the very least. Joining me right now, an all-star panel to break it down, put it back together again, to CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter Dave Mack. Start at the beginning, Dave, what happened? Police were called by Dr. Chris Edwards. He's an orthopedic surgeon in Atlanta, one of the most well-known doctors in Atlanta. And he called them about a welfare check because

he hadn't gotten up with his son, 24-year-old Chris III. Now, Chris didn't show up for work that day, and Dr. Edwards had been trying to get up with him, and when he couldn't get up with him, found out he never showed up for work, that's when Dr. Edwards called the police and just said, hey, would you mind going and checking my ex-wife's condo because I can't find my son anywhere and can't get up with my ex-wife. I can't get up with my daughter, and that's when the police showed up at six o'clock that evening. Take a listen to WSB reporter, this is Tom Regan. Still a lot of unanswered questions on this triple shooting that happened here at this townhome complex just a few blocks away

from Cumberland Mall. But as you referenced, we have, through a family friend, been able to identify the three victims. They are the former wife and the two adult children of, as you mentioned, a prominent community leader and surgeon. That is Dr Dr. Christopher Edwards he is a orthopedic surgeon and chair of the Atlanta Housing Authority. Detectives have left the scene here for now but I want to show you what it looked like late last night. Police and detectives were going through the area looking for evidence and interviewing neighbors. Police were called here to do welfare check around six o'clock last night that's when they found

the three bodies two adult women and a man inside a townhome here at the complex. At this point, police are not saying whether they believe this is a case of murder or murder or suicide. They are still investigating this. This triple shooting obviously has shaken many in this town home complex. We'll be working throughout the afternoon to get more information about the shootings and a possible motive. To Dr. Robbie Ludwig, psychologist joining us from our Facebook Live program at Times Square. Dr. Robbie, question to you. I don't necessarily think that this was a snap moment. And I don't know if you recall covering this case with me or not, but there was

a mom, her name, Julie Schoenecker, about the same age as Martha Edwards, had two children, not tots, not infants, because Robbie, we see a lot of moms that murder small children. I mean, I could list them on and on and on. I mean, Andrea Yates is a perfect example. Deanna Lacey, another example. But in these two cases, the children are older. She just got on an Italian vacation with the daughter, Erin, and she had been down visiting the son, Chris, in Miami. In the case I'm telling you about, Julie Shinaker, her children were in high school, and she was irritated with them for talking back to her. So she murdered them. She was also angry at the husband who was in the military and was gone all the time.

I think this was more revenge and hate of two wonderful children, Dr. Robbie. I don't think she just snapped. Well, clearly she did snap, but there could have been and probably was some severe character disorder or mental health issue that she was struggling with. How about just plain old angry, revenge, fed up, frustrated, worn out, bitter? How about that?

That's not a mental defect. No, that's true, but, you know, hopefully if you're feeling that degree of anger and you are somewhat stable, then you can cope with that rage and neutralize it to some extent. And you don't act out in murder. Otherwise, we'd have a lot more people murdered than we already do. But I agree with you, Nancy. This motive appears to be all about revenge and feeling that she had no life without this husband and not

wanting her husband to have these two kids. She is punishing him and punishment she's certainly induced by killing her two kids who sounded like fabulous people and killing herself, which eliminated all future possibilities. Dr. Robbie, you know how I feel about you and your family, right? But have you ever heard the phrase flip-flop? Because that's what you just did. And I mean, you did it in a spectacular fashion. You said that this was mental defect, uncontrollable rage, and anger, bitter resentment. You can't have it both ways. Legally, legally, you cannot. Jason Oceans, under the law, there is no defense of snapped.

That is a show on Oxygen, okay, my TV home. There's no such thing as snap. You don't just snap. You act out of rage. Rage is not a defense under the law. Bitter. Bitter that her husband had divorced her and he was a star in the Atlanta social elite and going on with his life as an orthopedic surgeon. Bitter. I don't know what took over this woman, but snap. And you can quote me on this. This is

technical legal talk. Snap ain't a defense. Nancy, I agree with you. Snap is never a defense. But clearly she did. And as a result of that. No, no, no. You and Robbie. Second verse, same as the first. No, you can't say there is no snap. But she did.

No. I'm not using that in a psychological term, which is clearly what she did. But yes, this was rageful. She committed murder. And as Dr. Robbie said, revenge or whatever was motivating her. You said it as well. She was angry at the life and wanted to deny her husband the ability to have any connection to it. So the fact that she snapped doesn't take away that this was seemingly premeditated in many respects, having them both together at the same time. They were in different places

over the summer. One was interning up in New York. So I do believe that it was planned and, you know, took that moment and whatever it was and, you know, went forward and did it. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Marsha Edwards' Facebook page is filled with images of her children, Chris and Aaron. She shared several pictures celebrating her son Chris' birthday in June, calling him her best guy and her daughter Aaron her best girl. And within the last few days, she posted multiple times from a trip to Italy with her daughter, sharing dozens of photos and videos over several days, visiting famous sites, smiling, toasting, and posing for the camera.

And in July, Marsha posted pictures from an Independence Day trip to Destin with her son Chris. Marsha also posted about Erin's internships with the city of Atlanta and CNN. She shared articles Erin wrote while recently interning for NBC and traveled to New York to see her over the summer. Erin's page shows she was studying at Boston University. She frequently tagged her mother in post, sharing pictures of them together and writing how proud she was of all her mom had accomplished when she was honored in

April as a small business owner and community leader by the Women Works Media Group as one of Atlanta's 100 most powerful and influential women of 2019. Wow. Just before two brutal murders, mom Marsha Edwards posts on social media about how she enjoyed her vacation in Italy with her daughter. That ain't cheap. Sharing pictures in Vatican City, Rome, Venice, toasting. Quote, City, Rome, Venice, toasting, quote, fortunate to have dinner at the Vatican after our tour. Okay. The very same day as the killing, she posted Instagram, I've had the best summer,

first with my son Chris in Miami and Aaron in Italy. I could not ask for better children. Okay, before I get to Dr. Tim Gallagher, a medical examiner for the state of Florida, just drink this in for a moment. How do people get so caught up? And, you know, some people are caught up in money. Obviously, these people were rich because Vinings is huge. I've driven through there before. In fact, I had my twins, one of their Easter photos taken with bunnies at a little, what do you say, boutique in Vinings. And I felt like a dog upstairs. I mean, I knew I was not supposed to be there. And I got that picture and left. I mean, the homes are like

castles on these rolling lots, you know, wooded, gated communities, the whole shebang. So these people are lacking for nothing. So many people all caught up in the trappings, the money, the society, the prestige, position, what car you drive, what clothes you wear, what home you live in, what's your zip code. Long story short, you also see it when you show off your children. And now I'm guilty of this. I'm not too hung up on my beat up minivan or my cowboy boots, but I have been proud of my children going, oh, John David did this, Lucy did that, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you can see Marsha Edwards touting her children like they're trophies. My daughter's at BU, my daughter had an internship at NBC, my son this, my daughter that. Did it go too far?

And did she not get what she thought she deserved back for all the years she devoted to her children and husband? Dr. Tim Gallagher, before I go into the thinking of moms that murder their children, how do we know? And this is the medical examiner for the state of Florida. How do you know from the angles, the trajectory paths, the entry and exit wounds, that she killed Chris and Aaron, her son and daughter, not that one of them killed her? How do you tell that?

Well, that's always a tough decision to make. That's always a tough assumption to make. You have to look at the circumstances that are leading up to the crime itself. You'd have to inspect the crime scene very carefully. You'd have to look for the blood trails. Was there a struggle? Is the house secured? Are they inside of a locked house? Is there any sign of somebody else being involved? Is there another sign of somebody breaking into the home? Was it a robbery? Can you eliminate that? Fingerprints on the gun would certainly help if the weapon was recovered.

If it was her fingerprints on the gun and only hers and the children's blood on the gun as well, then that is certainly compelling evidence that it was her that committed the crime and nobody else was involved. Also, for instance, if the, just imagine Jeff Cortese, former FBI special agent. Just imagine, let's pick on Jackie Howard here in the studio. If she's sitting there at the radio board, as I call it, all the equipment in front of her. She's got her headphones on. She's drinking her coffee because my instant coffee is beneath her. Say I sneak up behind her and I shoot her in the back of the head.

I would never do that, Jackie, just know that deep inside. But you can tell, Jeff, that the victim can't shoot themselves in the back of the head. That's physically impossible. So, for instance, the gunshot wound is in the back or the back of the head or the back itself. That tells you right there that they were not the ones that did the killing. Yeah, that's correct, Nancy. You know, as the doctor had mentioned, you know, the crime scene analysis is going to incorporate a look at everything from gunshot residue, gunpowder residue on hands, shirts,

trajectory of bullets. Well, hold on. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm drinking from a fire hydrant here. Jeff Cortese, you're the FBI special agent. You got a dummy down for the rest of us. Explain how and under what circumstances gunshot residue can be found. Sure. So through the analysis of a crime scene, when a firearm is discharged, gunshot residue is ejected from the gun. And it will spray on the hand of the person squeezing the trigger. And depending on the distance between the gun and the person who is being shot, there could also be gunshot residue on the shirt, or pants or head or face of the person that is being shot. So that could give you some sense of

trajectory and identify people involved. Guys, we are talking about a beautiful mother of two children, Chris and Erin Edwards. They were young adults. Why kill them? Why now? Apparently, there is no doubt that mommy did the killings, whether it's from where the victims were found, the nature of the gunshot wounds to them, the trajectory paths. I mean, was one asleep? Was one sitting at a computer with their back turned? We don't know. Police are not releasing it, but we do know mommy pulled the trigger. And it doesn't matter how rich you are, how connected you are, murder still happens. Take a listen to 11 Alive's Doug Richards. Marsha, the mother who fired the shots, had been married to Christopher Edwards, a surgeon who leads the Atlanta Housing Authority

Board. The family is also longtime friends with Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms. Aaron Edwards was an intern in the mayor's office last summer. Chris Edwards was a current employee in the mayor's communications office. In a statement, Bottoms said in part, Derek and I joined the greater Atlanta community in mourning the loss of three members of the beloved Edwards family. Chris and Aaron were beautiful, vibrant, and brilliant young adults whom we had the pleasure of knowing their entire lives. They filled the lives of all who met them with joy, compassion, and kindness. Well-educated, fantastic, wonderful, just bright people. Yeah, which makes it, you know, a lot harder just to understand where, you know, what went wrong, what happened,

what caused this snap. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What happened? Tell us about the investigation. So around 6 o'clock tonight, Cobb County Police Department uniformed officers were dispatched to 3206 Nobility Way in reference to a welfare check. Upon arrival, they located three deceased inside the home, all adults, two females and one male, and it appears that it's from gunshots.

As far as relationship goes, it appears they live in the household, but we haven't confirmed the specific relationship between those inside the home. It's active, it's still an investigation, and we don't have any further details at this time. Is this qualified as a murder suicide? It's still under investigation. Is there any obvious signs of a break? I don't have any information on that. Are we looking for anyone tonight? It's still an active investigation. Approximate ages of the victims. They're adults. I don't know the ages. All three are over 18. All three are adults. Say it again. It's. All three are over 18. All three are adults.

Say it again. It's it's it's what was the all I'm sorry. What was the mix? It's two females and one male. Um, you said the weapon recovery. I don't know. It's there's still investigators inside the residence. You said there was a welfare check. What had it been a certain time frame that folks hadn't heard from these people? I'm not sure what prompted the welfare check? What had it been a certain time frame that folks hadn't heard from these people? I'm not sure what prompted the welfare check. I know that that is what brought officers to this location today. You are hearing a police conference after two children, Chris and Aaron Edwards, found dead. The shooter, mommy. What led Marsha Edwards to turn the gun on her two children? They seem to have it all. Lots of money, social prestige, great schools, Italian vacations, the works. And this is just after mommy posed to Instagram, I could not ask for better children.

Take a listen to our friends at WTVM. Look into the case of a mother who police say killed her two adult children and then herself. Police are calling the incident a double murder-suicide. Dr. Christopher Edwards, a Columbus native and the son of Dr. Delmore Edwards, who was the first African American in Columbus, is still grieving after finding his two grown children and ex-wife dead in the mother's Atlanta home last Wednesday, there will not be a public viewing, but the funeral arrangements will be held at 11 a.m. on the 28th at Cascade United Methodist Church in Atlanta.

You know what that tells me to Dr. Tim Gallagher, state of Florida medical examiner, that they very likely were shot in the face or the head. When there's not an open casket, there's usually a reason for that, Dr. Gallagher. That is generally it. The damage done by that sort of attack would certainly not invite itself to an open casket funeral. I feel awful about this. You know, these are some of the worst possible crime scenes to attend. And it's just an awful, awful story. You know, I keep hearing Jason Oceans and Dr. Robbie Ludwig saying that she, quote, snapped. She, quote, snapped. Dr. Robbie Ludwig, what do you think about potential

resentment over her husband who divorced her succeeding and being taken back into high society while she continued to be alone. Yeah, I mean, I think alone is a very important point here. We don't know what she found out. Maybe she found out her ex had a new girlfriend. Maybe it was a new younger girlfriend. But what's interesting about killing adult children versus younger children is I wonder if this woman felt like everybody was leaving her at the same time. Everybody was having a new life at the same time except for her. So when your kids are in their 20s, then they're kind of going off into their own future. They're more independent. They have their own lives. And it sounds like this is a

woman who was preoccupied and had a fear of being abandoned. And now everyone was going off to have a beautiful future, except for herself. And that's where the suicidality can come in. And of course, the revenge comes in. If I can't have a life, then I'm going to make sure that my kids don't leave me and that my husband is punished. To Jason Oceans, New York defense attorney, weigh in. Well, clearly, Nancy, from the end result, this was something premeditated, at least in thought, if not in action. Something that she contemplated and, you know, clearly waiting for the right time that they would all be together.

You know, the weapon there, they have separate lives. And so there was something going on that, you know, that was a trigger. And then, you know, waited to bounce. I don't know, you know, we're using the word snapped and I've used it, but something did along the way. And and there we have, you know, a double homicide and a suicide. It's not the first time a mom has murdered her children. Here's a similar case that brought the issue to the national forefront. Rusty Yates prays and hugs his family at a candlelight vigil in front of the courthouse where his wife, Andrea Yates, was convicted of capital murder for drowning their five young children last June.

We, the jury, find the defendant, Andrea Pia Yates, guilty of capital murder as charged in the indictment. Yates showed little reaction in the courtroom to the defendant, Andrea Pia Yates, guilty of capital murder as charged in the indictment. Yates showed little reaction in the courtroom to the verdict, but according to defense attorney George Parnham, Yates is upset. Very upset, very upset. Rusty Yates dropped his head in his hands and cried at the verdict. On the opposite side of the courtroom, Yates' mother, Karen Kennedy, appeared visibly shaken. After 17 days of emotional and often heartbreaking testimony, jurors took just three and a half hours to reach their decision, all but one avoiding looking at Yates as they returned to render their verdict. We're hearing about Andrea Yates who murdered

five of her children. So often we see that the children are younger in age, tots or infants, when the mother murders them. If you guys recall in the Andrea Yates case, her husband, Rusty Yates, was a religious fanatic. And he eschewed, I recall he was highly educated, maybe as an engineer. And he eschewed all belongings. And he took his family and made them live in a school bus for a period of time. Can you imagine a mom alone all day with five children living in a school bus is the way I remember it. Talk about frustration. She ended up murdering all five of her children. So let me ask you this to Dr. Robbie Ludwig, psychologist. What's the differentiation?

That mom killing very young children, which is typically what we see here, like in the Julie Shinneker case out of Florida, the children were up in age. These were young adults, Erin and Chris. Well, I think the difference here is, first of all, Andrea Yates was psychotic. So she truly did not know the difference between right and wrong. Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait. I don't know if you recall the facts, all of them, Dr. Robbie, because she intentionally waited until her husband went to work that morning. She locked the doors so none of the children could get out and nobody could get in.

She took the children one by one away from each other so they couldn't help. The children couldn't help each other. One, the tiniest child, the little baby girl, was covered in bruises where she tried not to be drowned dead, fought back. But she was covered in bruises because her mother held her down she then laid them out formally on a bed and then called 9-1-1 and said I've done a terrible thing now in my mind that shows she knew very well what she did wrong and remember a jury found her guilty but mentally ill okay guilty okay not insane which you don't know what's wrong at the time of the incident but guilty g b m i guilty but mentally well there was something in that case right where there was

a mental illness that was not being addressed she was not allowed to take care of herself or her mental well-being and had postpartum psychosis. That could be a reason in some cases. In other cases, it's because the children are somehow in the way of the mother having the life she wants to have or the boyfriend she wants to have. And the kids are very demanding. And the woman is, let's say in some cases, was not allowed to have an abortion and so engages in a murder after the fact or after the child is born. This is something very different. It sounds like this woman had a character disorder

where she was preoccupied with being left and being abandoned and probably was highly erratic. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Well, police say this is the case of a 58-year-old woman who shot and killed her adult son and daughter inside her home apparently yesterday. The woman then shot and killed herself. It's a story breaking hearts from Cobb County to Atlanta City Hall. Marsha Edwards is the woman on the left, the mother of daughter Erin and son Christopher. Police say the mother fired the shots that killed all three Wednesday night.

We didn't hear anything. There was no sign of any, you know, violence happening. Talia Cartal lives next door to the Cobb County condo police visited Wednesday evening. Cartal is a neighbor who'd gotten to know and appreciate the family. Just a really nice family. Aaron and Chris had exceedingly promising futures, just really bright, nice, kind people. You are hearing 11 Alive's Doug Richards talking about Marsha Edwards who shoots and kills her son Chris and her daughter Aaron. The neighbors talking about the family and if you notice they all talk about how accomplished and educated the family was. That did not save the children from death at the hands of mommy.

Why do moms kill? This is an extremely unusual case because when moms kill, they normally kill children that are very, very young, infants or tots. We were just talking about the Andrea Yates case. But then there's the Deanna Laney murders. Deanna Laney murdered her little boys, eight-year-old Joshua, six-year-old Luke, by beating them over the head with a rock, slamming it down with all her strength

against her child's skull, both of them, Luke and Joshua, she tried to kill their youngest son, 14-month-old Aaron, in the same way. He managed to live but suffered intense, serious head injuries. Now, according to Laney, God ordered her to murder her children. Okay, Dave Mack with me, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. What more do we know about this mom, Marsha Edwards? Actually, we know a lot. And here's what we're looking at is that the post that she made about the vacations with both her children over the last year, it almost was like a goodbye tour, like a farewell tour. Because see,

she only made about two hundred thousand dollars a year in her own business wait wait wait what did you just say did you just say she only made two hundred thousand dollars a year did that just come out of your mouth that is a yes no question dave mac yes ma'am it did only made well what do you think alimony and child support is, Dave Mack? For Pete's sake, the husband's an orthopedic surgeon, and that was him giving some press conference about athletes. She's got her own background as a medical doctor,

but five years ago in 2014, she left his practice and started her own company. I looked it up, and when you actually look at the business of her company, which is a medical supply thing, she's the only employee, and they reported earnings of pre-tax $200,000. Now, we don't know anything about alimony or child support. Dr. Robbie Ludwig, alimony and child support, that's just a given with wealthy people. Of course there's alimony and child support.

Well, there may not have been child support because the children are older. So once the kids are adults, I do believe in, and listen, it may vary from state to state, but I don't think this had anything to do with finances. This had to do with being left and that this mother did not feel she had anything to look forward to in her life. And the rest of her family did. Her husband may have had a younger girlfriend. Both her kids were going to go off and have their own careers and their own futures. They were all leaving her at the same time. And this was something that she simply could not have happened and she could not tolerate, especially when she was probably

profoundly depressed about herself and what she had available to her moving forward. So what we see very often with Instagram, and when you go on an adult trip with your adult children, any mother knows that there are moments. There are moments that really don't go well. And sometimes the posting is about how you want your life to come off, how you want your life to be. It doesn't necessarily reflect the reality, but it reflects the hope of how you hope other people will view your life and how you want to view your life. Dr. Tim Gallagher, a medical examiner for the state of Florida. What does this scenario tell you about the violence involved in these murders? Well, the crime scene can certainly tell you about

the violence of the attack. Some things that we look for in our medical examiner's office is how many times were each of the victims shot? Oftentimes, in times of a very high emotional stress, we'll find that the victims are shot quite a number of times, 10, 20, 30 times, something that we call overkill. And this is an emotional reaction that they're having at the time that they're killing the person, that they tend to overkill them to keep shooting at them even when clearly they are deceased. So that is an emotional release that they have during the act. Other things that we look for is the severity of the defense wounds. Were the victims violently defending themselves? Does the crime scene show

a really disturbed or ransacked type apartment or ransacked type condo where they were? So all of these things, when put together, can show the circumstances leading up to the fatal act and the emotion that was involved that may have triggered the fatal act. Jeff Cortese, former FBI special agent, weigh in. I think at this point in the investigation, much of the emphasis is going to be on determining motivation and degree of planning. You know, they're going to want to understand at what point the gun was acquired. They're going to be to understand at what point, you know, the gun was acquired. They're going to be looking at emails, text messages between the family members, talking to the husband, neighbors, friends, and looking to, as, you know, I think Dr. Ludwig insightfully outlined, looking for the motivation behind it all, the extent of the planning, so that we can identify red flags in the future that might be helpful in stopping these types of crimes from happening to other families.

Jason Oceans, defense attorney out of New York, what do you think? A tragic occurrence for the city. Certainly, the focus should be on people being aware of what's going on around them. When it's premeditated within a family in an aspect of crime like this, people have to be more alert, see something, say something. I think that's critical. I think Dr. Gallagher talked about that and certain triggers. That's really the preeminent aspect of the takeaway from this tragedy. Perhaps that couldn't have been avoided, but we'd like to think that going forward, we can do better as a society in being alert to mental health issues. We wait as justice unfolds.

Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.