Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Socialite-Turned-Pedo-Pimp: Ghislaine Maxwell Trial Commences

Episode Date: November 30, 2021

The sex trafficking trial of Ghislaine Maxwell has begun. The wealthy socialite is accused of being a central player in Jeffrey Epstein’s decades of sexual abuse of minors. Defense attorneys say Maxwell is a scapegoat taking the fall for a man’s misdeeds. The defense portrays Maxwell as a victim, and the accusers as basically in it for the money Epstein’s estate set aside for victims of his abuse after his death. The first witness of the trial was Lawrence Paul Visoski Jr., who worked as a pilot shuttling Epstein. He is expected to return to the stand on Tuesday.Joining Nancy Grace today: Jessica Pride - Sexual Assault Attorney, The Pride Law Firm, victimlawyer.com, Instagram: @thepridelawfirm, Twitter: @pridelawyer Dr. Teresa Gil, Ph.D. - Professor of Psychology, Psychotherapist, 25 years Working with Child Abuse & Trauma Victims, TeresaGilPHD.com, Author: "Women Who Were Sexually Abused as Children: Mothering, Resilience, and Protecting the Next Generation" Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan" Charlie Lankston - FeMail Editor, DailyMail.com, Twitter/Instagram:@charlielanks Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Beautiful, glossy hair, high heels, cashmere outfit. What does that say to me? Ghislaine Maxwell's trial has commenced. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Let's think that through for a moment. Glossy hair. Ladies out there, you know what that means.

You have one of those treatments that makes your hair shine like it did when you were a little girl or you have, uh, what is that Jackie? Is it some kind of glycerin? What? Keratin. She says keratin. Spray on your hair, some kind of treatment. Okay, that gets you ready for trial. High heels, gotta have heels, right? Gotta have on a very expensive cashmere outfit. This kind of reminds me of, in a much lesser extent, to cult mom Lori Vallow, who made lip gloss and blush for a court appearance and had her hair in mermaid waves down her shoulders and had on bright blue, I think it was blue, toenail and fingernail polish for court.

And I remember Jodi Arias, who could forget her. She murdered her lover, Travis Alexander. I was more worried about the 29 stabs and the cap to the head. She was more worried about applying powder and makeup for cameras. She also shot a bird at me in the courtroom. Let's don't forget about that. That said, I guess Ghislaine Maxwell is ready for battle with her glossy hair, heels, cashmere outfit,

giggling, laughing, and hugs with her lawyers. But what's really going on in the Ghislaine Maxwell trial? I want you to think back to when you were 13, 14 years old. I knew nothing. When somebody first told me about a period, I thought they were making it up. I'm like, that can't be real. I knew absolutely nothing. These girls were sex trafficked according to them. So a billionaire pedophile could have sex with them as they were giving him massages. Let that sink in. 14, 14 years old. To top it all off, some of these girls, well, all of them, were underprivileged. And I don't necessarily mean they didn't have enough to eat or they didn't have a home. They were latchkey kids like I was. Many single parents had single parents that worked during the day to support them

that didn't know that instead of being at home after school, they were at Jeffrey Epstein's mansion getting raped. That's who we're talking about. Just let that soak in for a moment. And according to witnesses, Ghislaine Maxwell, the millionaire socialite from Great Britain with the beautiful accent, was the ringleader, the one that organized it all at Jeffrey Epstein. That is what this is about. It is not about the glossy hair and the high heels and the cashmere

outfit, which, you know, sending her back a thousand bucks. That's what this is about. Let's just don't forget that. Again, thank you for being with us. You know, a lot of times in court, it ain't pretty. It's upsetting and you don't want to think about it in your spare time. But it is our duty to think about it and to wrestle with the facts until we know the truth. I want to go straight to Charlie Langston joining me. She is the female editor for DailyMail.com. She's been on the story from the very beginning. She has been with me throughout our Ghislaine Maxwell special investigations,

which you can find at Fox Nation. Charlie, tell me what's happening in court. First, I want to get to Ghislaine Maxwell and her appearance, that she is so carefully orchestrated in the courtroom. Tell me. Well, it's very interesting to me because in the lead up to her trial, Ghislaine was complaining that she was being assaulted and abused in jail. She shared an image of herself with a bruise on her face that she said she had been subjected to while in prison.

So it's very strange to me that she would kind of put out this story about the abuse that she was suffering in prison, but then turn up to the court looking like a glossy heiress. Additionally, her defense lawyers urged the jurors not to see her wealth and her privilege as a crime. They said that the jurors needed to put her privileged background out of their minds. So for Ghislaine to turn up with the glossy hair, the high heels, the cashmere is a very strange tactic to me because surely the only thing that the jurors are going to be thinking of is here's this incredibly wealthy put together lady who absolutely does not look like someone who's being abused in prison. Charlie Langston, you know how

I respect everything that you say and I think a lot of you, and Daily Mail, of course. So please don't take this the wrong way. Could you just say cashmere again? Cashmere. Gosh. When you say it, it sounds even better than it really is. My daughter asked me the other day, Mom, what's cashmere? I'm like, don't think about it.

It costs too much. Don't think about it. Enjoy your cotton sweater and say no more. But that's the thing, you know, I would think that if one of her defense tactics is to try and stop the jury from thinking of her as this privileged, wealthy woman, they would have thought a little bit more clearly about the image that she's going to put across in court. But what this says to me is that she couldn't wait to, you know, get rid of her prison outfit and put on the wealthy clothes that she's so used to wearing. You know, I was thinking about it in a completely different way,

Charlie Langston. And what you're saying entirely makes sense. I was thinking about how people are, many people are obsessed with their looks when they should be focused on something very, very different. But you're making me see this in a different way. And I think we're both correct that this is the wrong image. And compared to what she claims she was going through in court, I find that to be impossible because it's not showing at all. A shower and a hairdo is not going to fix months and months of deprivation, which tells me months and months of deprivation did not happen. And that was all a lie to get out of jail so she could probably abscond. Guys, take a listen to our friend Martha Kellner at Sky News, Hour Cut 8.

From dawn break in New York, the queue to enter Thurgood Marshall Courthouse kept growing. There's only one case they're interested in. The trial of Ghislaine Maxwell. To secure a seat inside they waited hours. The alleged victims of Jeffrey Epstein have waited far longer than that. Mum, how are you feeling today? Sarah Ransom says she never thought this day would come. She claims Ghislaine Maxwell was the nuts and bolts of a sex trafficking operation. It's here in New York where Maxwell used her friendship with Prince Andrew to access America's high society. It's here where her relationship with billionaire Epstein began.

And it's here where she will face her alleged victims. Wow, that really put it in a nutshell. So big thank you to Martha Kellner at Sky. But now take a listen to our cut seven. This is Valerie Castro at CNBC. Ghislaine Maxwell was present in the courtroom and walked in without handcuffs, but was escorted by two marshals. Also in the courtroom, her sister, Isabel, who came to show her support, quickly making her way into the courthouse and ignoring any questions. A woman named Sarah Ransom also arrived this morning for

the trial. She claims to be one of Epstein and Maxwell's victims and is set to release a memoir entitled, Silenced No More, Surviving My Journey to Hell and Back. She is not expected to testify. The first witness to take the stand this afternoon was a pilot who testified he was hired by Jeffrey Epstein to fly private planes. His testimony is expected to continue tomorrow. This trial is expected to last about six weeks, and it's still unclear if Ghislaine herself will take the stand in her own defense. She has pleaded not guilty to all of the charges in this case, but she does face life in prison if convicted. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Well, so many issues are swirling right now that as a

trial lawyer, I'm just ticking off in my head. Number one, what Charlie Langston brought up and we all knew earlier, let me jog your memory, as part of the juror questionnaires, jurors, yes, fill out questionnaires in certain jurisdictions before they get to the big panel, the panel of 60 to 100 people from that is called down to 12 plus usually six alternates. Would you hold it against a defendant if they have an extravagant, wealthy lifestyle? I don't know that I would have asked that question. But they did, and now that's in the jurors' minds that she's walking around without handcuffs. What that means is that, as our Constitution has been interpreted by case law, a defendant is to be kept from being seen by a jury in jailhouse clothes or shackled.

What did that mean to me? A lot of times I would have defendants jump up on the morning of trial and go, I don't have any clothes. I would keep clothes in my office hanging there for a man and a woman defendant in case they didn't have clothes and I just bring him down to the courtroom and say may not fit that great but put it on we're going to trial. Also will she or will she not take the stand? Defendants always talk a big game before the trial starts that they're going to take the stand. Very rarely do they actually do it. With me an all-star panel in addition to Charlie Langston from DailyMail.com,

Jessica Pride is with us, sex assault attorney with the Pride Law Firm. You can find her at VictimLawyer.com. Dr. Teresa Gill, Ph.D., professor of psychology and psychotherapist, 25 years working with abuse and trauma victims, and author of Women Who Were Sex Abused as Children, Mothering, Resilience, Protecting the Next Generation. Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and host of another brand new hit series on iHeart, Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. I want to go to you, Jessica Pride, on the issues that we're just bringing up. Her being escorted around the courthouse with guards, but with no shackles, with no jailhouse outfit. What she chose to wear, it's not a fashion question.

It's an impression that's being made on this jury. They are seeing her for the first time they saw her during Vaudaire jury selection, which coincidentally is French for to speak the truth. Now they're seeing her in court and this is the impression that she is making on them. What about it, Jessica Pride? Well, it's interesting. Irrespective of what we think about her guilt, we have to remember that our judicial system is built on the principle of innocent until proven guilty. And so that's the reason why she's not walking around with handcuffs. They have to allow her her opportunity in a day in court. The prosecutor has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she's guilty. And so until then, she gets to be in the courtroom without handcuffs. We hope at the end she'll be leaving in handcuffs. But until then, her wrists are clean, short of any bangles or fancy outfits she feels she wants to wear. I don't think it was a smart decision for her counsel to put her in lavish

clothing because I agree with what you were talking about earlier. It goes against this whole we should feel sorry for her. She's the victim in this because the truth of what they're trying to paint is that she's a scapegoat. She's not really the perpetrator here. It was all Epstein and everyone's just trying to pin it on her because Epstein's dead. And I don't think putting her out in fancy stuff takes away from that attention or makes you feel sorry for her. You know, just drinking in everything that you said. And I agree with everything that you said and I agree with everything that you said. And I want to point out to everybody, I of all people am not interested in fashion. Can we agree with that? Okay. So that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about trial strategy, which I care very deeply about. Trial strategy and technique. Think about the Menendez

brothers. They're thugs, but what did they wear in court? They looked like they were 1Ls at Harvard Law School. Really. They would dress in this preppy outfit. Their lawyer, who was a very good defense attorney at the time, would preen on them and pet them and rub their backs and pick lint off them and smooth their hair in court to humanize them. It was all an act. Their outfit, it was a stage. The courtroom was a stage and is a stage. And everything you say, everything you do, how you look, how you stand, what you wear matters in a court of law. Why? Because whether they realize it or not, jurors are drinking you in and are forming opinions about you. They may not even realize they're forming. Let me go to an expert in this is Dr. Teresa Gill, PhD, psychotherapist and professor of psychology. Somebody, I'm going to remember who it was

in a minute, said the first thing they noticed about a person is their shoes. I never look at anybody's shoes, but they say if their shoes are well shined and taken care of, then that says something about the person. I would never dream to look down at somebody's shoes. But the point I'm making is everything you do, whether you look at the jury, whether you look down the whole time, whether you laugh, whether you cry, they see all that and they unconsciously, I think, subconsciously form an opinion, Dr. Gill. That's true. They say within 15 seconds, people can sum you up. But I also think in relationship to what she chose to wear, her entire life has been based on creating a persona of being affluent and being seen and being visible.

She was born to a billionaire father, and some of her friends have said that when her father passed and left no money, that that's why she got involved with Epstein, because he was another billionaire that would be able to provide that lifestyle for her. And I could actually see her lawyers saying, don't dress like that, and her just refusing. Because how she presents herself to the world, I think, is an intricate part of who she is, and that she's making a decision, even if it may not work for her. Who on the panel remembers the Menendez? I agree with you, Dr. Gill. Who on the panel or in this room remember the Menendez trial?

Both Kara and Jackie. I do. Yeah, I remember it. Do you remember it, Joe Scott? Do you remember how they dressed? And I'm going to get off the close in just a moment. But, you know, everything matters in court. Do you remember that, Joe Scott Morgan?

Yeah, I remember one in particular had an affinity for crew neck sweaters in particular. And the hair all trimmed up and finally polished in appearance. And, you know, he met that appearance that you have that expectation that people that live out there would bring to bear. I just thought of something. I can't believe one of you did not meet me over the head with this. I even said the name Jodi Arias. Do you remember? She had always been a bottle blonde, not judging, not a leg to stand on there, and very made up and very sexy

when she was dating Travis Alexander. Do you remember guys, anybody jump in if you do remember that she actually had her hair totally dark brown in a very dowdy ponytail. And she dressed like a 70 year old librarian for trial. I'm like, who's that in defense table? Who is that? Of course I knew it was Jodi Arias. Complete different look. It's like she transformed Kafkaesque into something completely different. And I'm talking, of course, about metamorphosis, where a guy turns into a roach, a giant roach. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace what exactly is happening in the courtroom let's take a listen to cut six this is valerie castro cnbc after a morning of finalizing the jury the opening

statements began this afternoon the prosecution began by telling the jury about one of the alleged victims in this case saying that she met max Maxwell and Epstein at a summer camp, calling the pair predators, and going on to say, quote, this defendant was trafficking kids for sex. That is what this trial is all about. The attorney went on to outline the claims and told the jury they will hear from the alleged victims, as well as see photos of massage tables where the alleged abuse took place, as well as flight logs from private planes to prove the girls were trafficked to various locations. The defense started out with a reference to Eve tempting Adam with an apple

and saying that ever since, women have been blamed for things men have done. Maxwell's attorney went on to say, quote, she is not Jeffrey Epstein. She is not anything like Jeffrey Epstein. Ep is not anything like Jeffrey Epstein. Epstein is not on trial. Well, somebody needs to go read Genesis again because Eve also bit the apple. Wasn't just Adam. So here we go. We're seeing what's happening in court.

Did I hear that correctly, Charlie Langston, that Ghislaine Maxwell actually met one of the alleged victims at summer camp? Yes. So what they are saying is that she and a gentleman turned up at this summer camp, supposedly saying that they were there to donate money and that they then met this young girl. They're using the pseudonym Jane in court because this victim wishes to remain unidentified. And that was how Ghislaine first formed a relationship with this girl. And that was how she then allegedly introduced her to Jeffrey Epstein, who is said to have been groomed and molested this young girl.

I need to take in everything you said because you got me drinking out of the fire hydrant too much, too fast. You know, I've researched this case. I've spoken to many of the victims, past, present, that were not necessarily witnesses at this trial. But this is the first I'm hearing that Ghislaine Maxwell actually met one of the victims at summer camp. Could you tell me more about that scenario? Like what summer camp? How old was the victim? I know they were there under the guise of donating money.

Do you know anything else? Well, in order to protect the anonymity of this victim, they haven't yet revealed specific details about it. But what the prosecution is saying and the reason that they are using this story is because they are trying to prove that Ghislaine not only was there when Epstein was abusing these young women, but she went out and recruited them. She went to all kinds of different locations and targeted specific young girls who, as you said, often came from very underprivileged backgrounds. The prosecution also says that she would target the daughters of single mothers who were therefore looking for a father figure in their lives. They were missing a parent for whatever reason, and therefore, you know, kind of were yearning for a strong male figure in their life. And that Ghislaine was the one who was sourcing these young women and then luring them in with promises of money, of comfort, of family, of anything that she thought would make them more eager to get to know her and therefore get to know Epstein.

So are we going to have this victim on the stand, the one that Ghislaine Maxwell met at summer camp? Yes, but three of the four victims who will testify during the trial will remain anonymous. So it's unlikely that we will really ever know who exactly they are unless they choose to name themselves. But this victim will likely go into much more detail about how Ghislaine approached her and how it went from, you know, that first meeting at summer camp to her being molested by Epstein. Oh, I just feel sick about it. Jessica Pride meeting a child victim at summer camp. And you know, Ghislaine Maxwell was trolling because if Epstein or whoever she was with wanted to donate money, why does she need to go meet the girls, the little girls that

turned into sex victims of Epstein's? There's no reason. I mean, I don't go and check the plumbing at the church before I write a check. Okay. Why? That had to be the reason that she was there, Jessica, to troll for victims. Sick. She was already starting the grooming process. And when you're looking for victims, predators often look for vulnerable victims. And the

grooming process in itself is a process by which a predator pushes the boundaries of a victim and tests for their vulnerabilities. And so by finding kids who didn't have parents or needed money or things like that, she was seeing what she could get away with and she was priming them for him. It's going to be really interesting in this trial because the defense lost part of their motion regarding the expert Lisa Rocio, who is a grooming expert. And I'm really interested to see her take the stand because she's going to talk about what grooming is. However, what the judge isn't going to let her talk about, which I wish he would, is grooming by proxy. Because grooming by proxy is essentially grooming by a third party. And that's exactly what Ghislaine did. She groomed

these girls for Epstein to prey upon. You know, and I find it as a trial issue, almost impossible to believe that all of these then young girls have the same general story about the same MO, modus operandi, method of operation, the same trajectory of their assault. And these girls are separated by time and space, didn't know each other. It's impossible in my mind that they're all lying. Statistically, astronomically impossible. Guys, take a listen to our cut one, our friends at Reuters. Inside a Manhattan federal courthouse closed off to video cameras. Jurors on Monday heard opening statements in the criminal trial of Ghislaine Maxwell,

Jeffrey Epstein's former employee, one time romantic partner and alleged sex crimes co-conspirator. In the latest chapter in a closely watched case that has captured the imaginations of people around the world about the exploits of the rich and powerful and has at the same time

inspired victims of sexual abuse to speak out on day one of the trial the prosecution told the jury that maxwell and epstein were partners in crime saying she quote preyed on vulnerable young girls manipulated them and served them up to be sexually abused by the now deceased financier which involved erotic massages that the prosecutors said Maxwell was sometimes even in the room for. Maxwell's lawyers said the sex abuse charges against her were for things Epstein did, and that the memories of the accusers had been manipulated by lawyers who encouraged them to sue for damages. Okay, I want you to hear this. This really rubbed me the wrong way. Take a listen to our cut for this.

This is Alice Gaynor at CBS2 New York, and it's not her delivery. It's what she's saying and what it conjures up and what it stands for. Listen. They likened him to a mysterious 21st century James Bond with no wife, no children and no boss. A man who did not share all aspects of his life and claimed many people of all ages used his private jets like a Hampton Jitney in the air to go to places other than his properties.

At trial, we are expected to hear from four alleged victims, their relatives, staff from his properties, including his private pilots, and also law enforcement witnesses to searches. The defense says they plan to show the accuser's memories were corrupted and manipulated by lawyers, media, and money. 59-year-old Maxwell could be seen whispering to her lawyers and taking and passing notes. She's pleaded not guilty and has been in a Brooklyn jail since her arrest in July 2020. Oh, boo-hoo. Charlie Langston, who compared Epstein to a modern-day James Bond? It was someone on Ghislaine Maxwell's defense team

who came up with that ludicrous comparison. And to be completely honest, I don't really understand what they're trying to do with it. It doesn't make any sense, in my opinion. And it also doesn't really play into anything that's going on here. You know what? It's interesting that the defense sees Epstein as a James Bond figure. I'm sure Daniel Craig will be so happy to hear he's been playing the part of a billionaire pedophile all these years. But that's glamorizing. Child rape.

It's child rape. The way we say assault, it's child rape. A child the age of 14, 15, 16 in many jurisdictions does not have the ability to consent. We don't let children buy cars, enter into contracts, work under our labor laws, buy alcohol, buy cigarettes, gamble for a reason because they do not have the maturity, the mental wherewithal to make that decision, much less to agree to have sex with some old perv. No. So it is under the law, rape. It is child rape. And to compare him to James Bond, this glamorous figure who is idolized, who was put up on a pedestal, sends all the wrong messages. Help me out, Dr. Gill.

I think the message is purposeful. Ridiculous. Because it helps to deny that he was a perpetrator and a child molester. And James Bond is kind of revered across the world as a movie, you know, in the movies for decades. And it kind of helps to bring Epstein up and diminish what happened to these children. I guess this makes Ghislaine Maxwell a Bond girl, Charlie Langston. She's a Bond girl. Right. But Halle Berry knows this. Well, but once again, it's a very confusing tactic to me from the defense, because if

you're telling the jury that you don't want them to, you know, see the glamorous side of Ghislaine Maxwell's life, that you don't want her to be connected to the wealth and, you know, mystery, as they're saying, of Jeffrey Epstein, then why on earth would you use a character who is so well known for his glamorized image, which, as you said, immediately conjures up the illusion that Ghislaine Maxwell was some kind of Bond girl? I mean, I think the truth to me is that as soon as I hear the James Bond comparison, I think of a James Bond villain. And I think of Ghislaine Maxwell as being the sidekick right-hand woman to that villain. Those are the only comparisons that I think it's said to make.

You're conjuring up so many images in my mind. Do you remember the Bond girl? Was it Ursula Andress that came out of the water and she had the, okay, Jackie's saying yes, she had the dagger on her side. Okay. That image is up here. I can never get rid of it. And when you say villain, I naturally think of, do you remember the really tall guy named Jaws and in Bond? Yeah. He had the metal teeth. I guess that. Okay.

You know, we're going way into James Bond lore right now. I should be focused on what's happening in court. Take a listen to Hour Cut 5. This is our friend Mola Linji at CBS. Prosecutors portrayed Ghislaine Maxwell as a sexual predator who enticed teenage girls, first by befriending them, then serving them up to Jeffrey Epstein to be sexually abused. Labeling Maxwell as Epstein's partner in crime in her opening statement, the prosecutor said in at least one instance they were each more than double the age of their victim. The government alleges Maxwell,

now 59, assisted, facilitated, and contributed to crimes by Epstein by helping him recruit, groom, and abuse girls as young as 14. Today in court, the prosecutor charged that Maxwell traded on the trust she earned from the girls, even being in the room when Epstein abused them. But defense attorney Bobby Sternum questioned the memories of Maxwell's accusers, portraying Maxwell as a government scapegoat for the real criminal, Epstein himself, and telling the jury Maxwell is a convenient stand-in for the man who cannot be here. Did you hear that? Ghislaine Maxwell actually in the room, standing by,

while her boyfriend, Jeffrey Epstein, sex molested these little girls. I think I hear Dr. Gill. What, Dr. Gill? I think the thing, I've been doing this for over 30 years and working with victims. Nothing really gets me frazzled or angry. But when I heard how our lawyers were going to manage this in terms of telling that the victim's stories are false memories and that it's been too much time and because of media reports and because of social media that their memories have been contaminated and swayed, and also then blaming the victims, saying that they were drug users, that they're doing this for money, that they have histories of child sexual abuse and prostitution. It's the reason why there are

hundreds of victims related to Maxwell and Epstein, and only a handful have come out. Because what happens is the courts take this and make the victim the perpetrator and the manipulator. And that's how they're handling the defense of Maxwell. Nancy, this is Jessica Bride. That is a classic defense strategy that they have been using in survivors for decades. It's blame the victim. The victim is lying. The victim doesn't know what they're talking about.

But the statistics show that, you know, at the average age of a child sex abuse survivor, the age that they actually come forward and report, 52. 52 years old is the average age that a victim finds the courage after years of living with the abuse that they are able to then tell their story. We also know that statistics show that the average for false reporting is two to five percent. So depending on where you are at in the country, two to five percent. That means most survivors are telling the truth. And there's no way that there's all these victims around the country who don't know each other that are all telling the truth. And there's no way that there's all these victims around the country who don't know each other that are all telling the same lie. They are telling the truth. And their defense team is going to have a really hard job of trying to turn people around and try to see

it their way because they can hire any fancy expert like Elizabeth Locas to try and come in and say, oh, they have false memories. But what we know from her track record is she lost it in OJ's case. She lost it in Weinstein's case. And we're hoping she does a bad job in this case and that Maxwell is also convicted guilty. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You know what, Joe Scott? It's very complicated why people never mention that they were molested as a child. I mean, in this room room I've got three women. You don't have to say anything.

But were you ever inappropriately kissed or touched as a child? I was. I was. And you know who saved me? My fifth grade teacher, Katie Amason. Katie Amason. And it was right around Thanksgiving. I'll never forget it. And I remember it like it was yesterday, like it was yesterday. And

I just have a hard time believing that these now women can't remember what happened to them. What were you saying, Joe Scott? Yeah, the defense is doing this kind of shuck and jive thing, the rope-a-dope, if you will, where they're trying to take their eyes off of what this really is. And Maxwell is nothing more than a pimp. And you and I have worked cases, Nancy, over the years that come directly off of the streets. And what's really important to me is this first witness that they've got on the stand, Larry Vyskocki, I think is his name,

who is a pilot. I guess we should get to the witness, I guess. So now that we've talked about the clothing and everything else. Well, we can learn a lot about what the prosecution is going to do simply based on this first witness. Nancy, think back to every case that you and I have ever worked relative to, say, for instance, a sexual assault case. If an individual has been conveyed somewhere, I don't care if it's a Gulfstream jet or a yellow cab.

We get to the cabbie, we get to the person that's driving that vehicle and say, OK, what were they doing when they got in your cab? Who were they with? What was their affect like? Were they damaged in any way? Were they in harm? Were they in fear? Or were they happy? When you last saw them, this guy that they've got on the stand, he is the person that conveyed Maxwell, who is the pimp, and Epstein, who was, you know, the master of the universe for her. He conveyed them everywhere, Nancy. He's already stated that they went to Paris. They went to Great Britain.

Of course, they went to the Virgin Islands. And of course, the mysterious ranch out in New Mexico. He's flying all these people around. And this is key because he's going to talk about, I think he's continuing on with his testimony. He's going to talk about who was on that plane and what their purpose was. You know, this isn't a yellow cab. This is a plane. They have to file flight logs. They have to talk about where they're going. And they have to say who's on the plane. And you're right. We're going to find out. I believe Charlie Langston, editor

at DailyMail.com, based on the state's first witness, who was a pilot that flew Epstein around. And again, this is not about Epstein. This is about Ghislaine Maxwell, who, my understanding, Charlie, will testify that Ghislaine Maxwell organized the trips, the flights, where from, such as Teterboro and New York, the private airport, to where and who would be on the flights. So for her to say, wow, I didn't know there were any little girls on the flight with Epstein is totally impossible. And is that the gist of the first witness, Charlie? Yes, because, you know, as we've said, this man flew Epstein. He said he would fly him every four days or so. This Epstein was on the plane,

which was nicknamed the Lolita Express because it was said to have been used to transport young women so frequently. If this pilot can kick off the prosecution's case by saying, I was on a plane with Ghislaine Maxwell, Epstein, and a young girl or several young girls who were brought onto the plane by Maxwell, that immediately shows a connection, not only between Ghislaine, Epstein, and these young women, but also that Ghislaine was the one who was organizing for these young victims to be on the plane with Epstein. You know, how can you load up a plane with your boyfriend, a private plane, and a bunch of little girls and not think something is way wrong with this picture? I mean, how could she do that and yet claim she didn't know what was going on? What about it, Dr. Gill?

Well, she did know what was going on. In fact, her victims say she was the mastermind of it all. I think what's also interesting about taking the victims to different parts of the country, one of the victims was 16. And because it was the abuse occurred in New Mexico, 16 was a legal age and her thing might be thrown out because of that. Another girl was 17. And because in New York, 17 was the legal age. It means that it wasn't sexual assault. You're right. You're absolutely right. What about it, Charlie Langston? said it from the get-go. She will not be testifying during this trial, but she said originally that Jeffrey Epstein may have been the pedophile, but Ghislaine Maxwell was the mastermind behind everything that he did. And I think if the prosecution can get the pilot to say from the off that they have evidence of that kind of masterminding going on, then I really don't know how Ghislaine's

defense will have a leg to stand on. Because even if they try and prove that these victims' memories are false or warped or whatever they're going to try and say, if we have someone on the stand saying, well, I saw Ghislaine bringing these young women onto the plane where we know Epstein abused them, then it doesn't really matter if they prove that the victim's memories are false because you have someone else who was of age at the time who remembers it very clearly. Well, you're brilliant. I think one more salient point here is that these state statutes are not going to apply.

This is a federal case. They're prosecuting this under the Mann Act, which, you know, it states that you cannot transport a woman across state lines for the purposes of sexual activity. And that's what he was engaged in. Now, he may have procured them in some place, say, where abusing a 16 year old is against the law. But he's transporting her to another place where it's not. That's immaterial here because the purpose is to get them there in order to facilitate this. The federal law is going to trump any kind of state statute. In my opinion, of course, I'm not an attorney. You are. But that's why this is being prosecuted in federal court. Guys, take a listen to our cut, too. This is not a topic from our colleagues at the BBC.

Over the next few weeks, what plays out in this New York courthouse will be a crucial chapter in the twisted saga of Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking ring and Ghislaine Maxwell's alleged role in it. As her highly awaited trial began, the world's eyes were trained on what the evidence presented here would reveal. And so, too, were Epstein's accusers. Some arrived to show solidarity with the alleged victims. In opening statements, the government said Ghislaine Maxwell was a dangerous predator who provided a cover of respectability for Epstein. Prosecutors said she lured victims with a promise of a bright future, only to sexually abuse them. Her defense attorney told the jury she was a convenient stand-in for Epstein and that the government would not be able to prove their case.

He said the accusers' memories were corrupted and influenced by a desire for a big jackpot of money. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Do you think the jury is going to buy that? That the victims are only saying this so they can get a payoff of some sort? This is Jessica. I represented hundreds and hundreds of survivors over the last 15 years. And the one constant between all survivors is it's not about the money for them. It's about justice.

It's about being heard. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.