Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - STALKING IS NOT ROMANTIC: 4 women murdered by love-obsessed stalkers

Episode Date: November 16, 2017

What should you do if you think you are being stalked? Nancy Grace assembles a experts to discuss how four women were murdered by stalkers despite desperate efforts to get protection. Her guests in this Crime Stories episode include Ron Rale, a Los Angeles lawyer specializes in restraining orders, California prosecutor Wendy Patrick, New York psychologist Caryn Stark, forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, and the DailyMail.com's Sean Walsh. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. After allegedly stalking her for months at her home, her workplace, and even while she was out on other dates, 62-year-old Vincent Verdi is accused of shooting the divorced mother of two in the stomach. I heard three shots and I seen the woman's feet go up in the air and fall and then I seen him there and he put the gun underneath his chin and shot himself. She later died at a hospital. She broke up with him in July and got a restraining order October 5th after he was

arrested for stalking. He would be calling her all the time and she was like, you have to stop calling me. It is not a romantic. It's not okay. It is a crime. Today we highlight the horrific murders of four beautiful women, all in the primes of their lives from stalkers, bona fide stalkers. They all knew about their stalkers. They were vaguely aware, one of them, of their stalker. Everyone else in their life knew about their stalker, but now they're still dead. Why? Mothers, students, a worker at a church school, why? Why did they have to die? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

Thank you for being with us. We are talking about today four very special women, all dead. One is Larissa Barrows, an 18-year-old girl near the top of her class, already accepted at FSU. She begged. She begged for help. She got a protective order. She begged prosecutors to go forward with the prosecution. But prosecutors in Orange Osceola jurisdiction said, oh, they didn't have enough evidence. This after over a thousand texts,

tires slashed, car window broken in, her car set on fire in the driver's seat, her driver's seat of her Chevy Cobalt, but yet they wouldn't prosecute. Well, she's dead now. She's dead, leaving behind a baby boy near the top of her class, already admitted to Florida State University to get her degree. She's dead. That will never happen.

Larissa Barrows. And then there is Janira Nicole Gonzalez. She didn't really realize she had a stalker. She knew vaguely that this guy seemed to always be around, but they had never dated. They weren't really even friends. Then one day he showed up at a community studying spot there at Northlake College in Dallas and said, you know who I am. You know why I'm here and shot her dead, shot her three times. Why? The whole college put in lockdown at the death of this honor student. And then a Utah mom, Memoree Rackley, a gorgeous young mom in her 30s, was walking her children home from school, from elementary school.

And he started chasing her in his pickup. She flagged down the Good Samaritan. The Good Samaritan let her in the car, but that didn't end it. He rammed the Good Samaritan with his pickup truck, got out and opened fire, killing her and her six-year-old son, Jace. Why? All the signs were there. She had called police. She had begged. Why is she dead? And the fourth woman we're talking about, Elizabeth Lee Herman, the mother of two. She was on her way from her apartment to her place of business on a bicycle. She worked at Grace Church School.

And as she parked her bike to go into work, he unloaded a hell of bullets. And she's dead. Straight out to Sean Walsh with thedailymail.com. Sean, I want to go into the details on all four of these cases. Which one should we start with, Sean? Nancy, I think we should talk about Elizabeth Lee Herman because it actually occurred outside of my office. Tell me what happened, Sean Walsh. I mean, this is a horrendous story, Nancy. This was a match made in hell. For nearly four months, Vincent Verde stalked his ex, Elizabeth Lee Herman, a beautiful mother. Wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute. SeanWalshDailyMail.com. Hold your horses, fella. When you say ex, hello. Didn't they meet on Match.com like in July?

They had been dating, quotey, quotey, for a couple of months. I would hardly refer to that as an ex. She had already gone to police about him. What did they date? Two months before she tried to get rid of him? I mean, this guy showed up everywhere at work when she'd have a date with somebody else. I mean, he was everywhere. I don't know if I'd call him an ex. I think, Nancy, I argue back that you could call him an ex. They were in a relationship for a brief

period of time. So technically, it's an ex. But I mean, not a good ex. This is like a crazy ex. Remind me then, every time I go to the movies and have a popcorn with somebody, they're my ex. All right, Sean Walsh, have it your way. I guess you Aussies are different. Go ahead. Well, I tell people after you and I have had dinner that that's my ex, Nancy Grace. I'm sure me and you and your wife and my husband will be very happy together. Go ahead.

I agree. But look, this is just horrendous. I mean, a little timeline of this. In July, she ends the brief, very brief relationship with Verdi. That same day, he begins repeatedly calling her, texting her, sends her emails. He's then sending her chocolates and flowers. The next month, he's showing up at her dentist appointment. He's calling her at work. He confronts her at the theater while she's on a date. He's waiting outside the school where she works. It then ramps up and he stops her on the sidewalk on her way home from work.

Again, he's sending her more emails. He's sending her another Match.com message. He sends her more emails again. He then sends her a gift certificate for three massages and a letter. And then it all culminates on November 1st when he shoots her to death in Astor Place in Manhattan at 8 o'clock in the morning outside the school where she worked as a secretary. It does not get any worse than this, Nancy. You know, I was looking at the article you had on DailyMail.com and it showed her with her children. And I just can't even imagine. I mean, no offense to my husband, but I mean, the times I have to go out of town and leave him here, it looks like burglars, home invaders have ransacked the house when I get back.

And I'm sure the children are not clean. I know that. They have eaten nothing but leftover Halloween candy. And everything's just gone to hell in a handbasket. And I'm looking at those two children. And it's not just that. It's not just, you know, veggies on the table and being bright and neat and clean on the way to school. It's having your mom. It's having your mom. When I look at those children, it just broke my heart, Sean Walsh. What more can you tell me?

And here's the thing. She's a mother of two beautiful children, a single mother of two. So these kids have lost the parent they live with. It's horrendous. And from all accounts, she was a wonderful mom. She was a valued member of the school community. She'd been at the school for many, many years. And not only has she left behind her own kids, it's all those little kids that would see her every day when they turned up to school here in New York that now won't have her in their life as well. So the effects of this devastating crime are simply profound. Straight out to Ron Rehl, high-profile lawyer,

joining me out of L.A. who specializes in restraining orders. Also with me, in addition to Sean Walsh, DailyMail.comcom is Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator, forensics expert, professor at Jacksonville State University, renowned psychologist joining me out of Manhattan, Karen Stark, and Wendy Patchett, California prosecutor, Ron Rail.

I remember all the stalking cases that I prosecuted and I would tell the women to their face, and I felt really bad about it. I'd say, you know that piece of paper you brought today? It means nothing outside this courthouse. That piece of paper is not going to stop him. Nothing is going to stop him unless he's behind bars, and that's my job. That's my job to put him behind bars. But let me warn you, he'll get out

unless he is a convicted murderer. He will get parole and a lot more quickly than you think. So I'm definitely going to do my part. But you sadly have to do your part to protect yourself. Ron Rail, in some of these cases, I just don't get it. Why even bother to get a protective order, Ron Rail? Actually, Nancy, I've got a little different perspective. I know people say, you know, it's not worth the paper it's written on, toilet paper, this and that. But let's look at some of the facts of, for example, a couple of these cases.

With, like, Elizabeth Herman, a couple of these cases with like Elizabeth Herman. There was a protective order, and I believe that was issued in connection with the criminal case. And so by the time that, you know, you get to a criminal case, sometimes the DA is not going to they're not going to prosecute unless they can win this thing. Right. And we can hear from your other guests on that. No, no, no, no. I don't agree that a prosecutor does not prosecute a case unless they think they can win. Because I've got to be honest, I tried before juries over 100 cases. I pled close to 10,000 cases, I guess, over 10 years. And tried many, many more bench trials and unlimited.

I don't even know how many juvenile trials. I never thought I was going to win. Never once. I went into it because I knew they did it and they wouldn't plead guilty. So what am I going to do? Just go, okay, you can go. Heck no. You don't just try a case when you think you're going to win it.

You try it because it's the right thing to do. Well, let's look at the DA is going to file when they've got to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. But let's look into my arena, which is family law. It's a civil case. The burden of proof is a preponderance of the evidence. So let's take a look at Elizabeth Herman. And I noted like in August when he showed up at her dentist appointment, he called her several times. He confronted her while she was on a date.

That's before the DA ever filed anything, right? Well, if she would have known, if she went into family court and got a restraining order, out here in California, you can get a restraining order if somebody looks at you cross-eyed. So if you can show they're disturbing your peace or, you know, you believe they're stalking you and you convince a judge 51% chance that that's going on, then you get that restraining order. It's in place. It's in the police system. Yeah, it's a piece of paper, then you get that restraining order. It's in place. It's in the police system. Yeah, it's a piece of paper, but you're nipping it early on. So he's in the system.

And you start with all these times when people see him around and you take him in, you file a contempt. Even if the DA is not involved, you get it in the system early. And I think it's something that maybe could have occurred. And in this case, it's kind of all the way down the line when you've got the DA involved. Ron Rales, she did have a protective order against him. He was arrested on October 4 for stalking her, and she was given a protective order against him. He was also ordered to turn over any and all guns he may possess. You know, he shot her dead and his lawyers

told the court he didn't have any guns okay so there was an order in place that aside i hear what you're saying ron real and this is your expertise you are saying that it's you only need a preponderance of evidence which is a little little, it's like 51% suggestion to the judge, it's a judge, not a jury, that this is happening and you can get a civil protective order against them. Right. And that can be done. It happens all the time.

People say that that statutory scheme is abused too much because people are running in and getting restraining orders for, you know, five text messages. You know, so it depends on that that, that day, who your judge is and how convincing you are, but it's available. It's a remedy. It's not criminal. You're not going to go to jail unless you end up violating it somehow. But yeah, it's a remedy that people can take advantage of. And, and, uh, the public doesn't really know about it all the time. If you're not in the middle of a divorce or something, uh, or if you're in a, in a dating relationship, and by the way, it's just a dating relationship. You don't have to really, you can go on a couple of dates and you qualify under the

statutory scheme, you know, so, but that is something, unfortunately. To Karen Stark, psychologist joining me out of New York, Karen Stark, there is a misguided theory that the flowers and the flowers and the chocolate and the chocolate and the showing up at the door and the showing up here and there and the begging and all that, that it's romantic. It's not romantic. It's a crime, Karen. How have we gotten that so confused? Well, because people have this idea that when somebody really loves you, if they do all these things, it's a sign that it's a wonderful thing. You're being romanced. Here's your white knight. But the truth is these people are extremely disturbed.

They're narcissistic. They have to control. And it is not the fault of the victim. It's the fault of the stalker. They usually have terrible low self-esteem and they can't feel rejection. They don't learn from their experience. The worst problem here, Nancy, is that he was jailed for seven days. It won't stop him.

He thinks that he's above the law, that somehow he can convince this person that he loves them and get them to love him and he must have their love. He can't live without it. That's what he believes. You know, they met on match.com and they were not very far into their alleged relationship before she tried to break it off. To seanwalshdailymail.com. Sean, this happened right outside your office. It did, Nancy. What do you recall? It was interesting.

I was on my way into the office and one of my colleagues said to me, oh, there's been some loud noises outside and now the police are here. And this poor lady was clicking in her city bike when she was confronted by him and shot in the stomach. And people were running everywhere. Kids were arriving at school because the school is across the street. It was simply horrific and something that no one could see. And then he shot himself. He didn't end up killing himself.

He's still in the hospital recovering. He shot himself in the head. And the bullet kind of went the opposite direction that resulted in it not being a fatal shooting. So he's still recovering in the hospital, Nancy. So, okay, he lives and she dies and her children are left to grow up without their mother. She was a single mom. She worked there at Grace Church School. This is what I can tell you. You cannot ignore a stalker. It's a common reaction

to ignore and hope it goes away. It doesn't work. That's right. Do not engage with your stalker, but be alert. Avoid contact. No matter how many times they call or text, don't keep writing back. Stop texting me. Stop calling me. Do it once, do it twice, and then stop. Avoid contact. Enhance security. Check your locks, alarms, cameras. Change your route to work and school. Every day. The stories we're telling you about today, all four of them is because the killers knew their love objects, routes, and whereabouts. Tell people in your life about the threat. Document all the messages, the voicemails, the letters, the cards, the so-called gifts. Document items that are damaged.

If your car is keyed, if your tires are slashed, if your door is kicked in, trust your instincts. I'm telling you, when you get a feeling, it's not just a hunch. It's something that's bred over thousands of years within the human mind. It could be something you saw, something you smelled, something you heard, something you remember. A feeling. You call it a feeling? Oh, no. It's a thousand things telling you, be careful and develop a plan.

When you are afraid and you're in danger, it is so hard to keep your head. I know. Develop a safety planXM 132 program is so very important. And I want to thank our partners who are making today's program possible. It's LegalZoom. All you business owners know how important it is. You must keep moving forward with your business. But so many times things pop up to take your focus away from growing your business. Reviewing contracts, registering trademarks, staying current on fees and permits, contracts, taxes, hiring employees. LegalZoom.com can simplify your life. LegalZoom was created 16 years ago by the brightest minds in law and technology.

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I want to go out to Wendy Patrick, California veteran prosecutor. Wendy, it's so great to have you with us. You know, so often we see restraining orders turn in to felonies. Why, Wendy? Why in this day and age are we still dealing with stalkers? Yeah, Nancy, it's such a great question. And thank you so much for tackling this topic. You know, stalking is an invisible epidemic, as you know, because a lot of the time, even well-meeting law enforcement officers, they want to see marks. They want to see bruises. But what I always advise stalking victims, and I'm sure you do the same, is that invisible trauma is in and of itself corroborative evidence. Why? Because of the things that we've all just been talking about, getting restraining orders, telling a door person to look out for this particular person, telling friends and family about your fear. You know, absence makes the heart grow fonder. As we say, it's not out of sight,

out of mind for stalkers. And some of these people are crazy for you. So there is no reasoning. I always like to say, Nancy, don't become a human slot machine, ignoring 29 phone calls only to pick up on the 30th in the hopes of being nice and talking the stalker out of his behavior. Not going to work, not going to happen. And the way to answer your question, we can continue to fight against this is to do exactly what this woman did and then follow that up with a police report. As soon as somebody violates an order, if there's a stalking case filed in most states, that's an aggregate that can add to the amount of time they serve when we catch him or her again. So it's a matter of being both proactive and reactive. And, you know, we just hope that with increased sensitivity and focus on this issue that we collectively can stamp it out.

You know, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, how domestic Domrell's domestic relation calls to 911 were poo-pooed for many, many years until one after the next, after the next, bodies started to pile up. And suddenly cops were forcing typically the man out of the house, documenting everything, putting somebody in jail, and they got serious about it. Just like teachers having to start reporting abuse on children, people got serious about it. I wonder what it's going to take before we realize that stalking turns into homicide or aggravated assault or a great property damage. Then I think a standard protocol will be put into place by cops because in this case, she had a protective order. She saw him that morning in the area. She talked to her doorman about it. She was dead 15 minutes later when she rode her bike to work. I want to talk about these three other cases. There's the Utah mom, Memoree Rackley.

That case really got to me. Sean Walsh, DailyMail.com. Can you tell us about it? I mean, this is just another one of these horrible, horrible cases. I mean, these women shouldn't be put in these positions, Nancy, where this sort of stuff occurs. I mean, we were absolutely stunned at DailyMail.com with the situation behind her untimely death. Well, hold on. There are a couple of highlights before you get going, Sean Walsh, that I want to make very clear this Utah mom was married but for whatever reason either they were separated they were taking a break in their relationship she had had a couple of meetings with and I'm not even going to dignify it as a date because I don't know that it was a date with this body

builder I mean when you look at pictures of him he's got this spray tan and he's like posing for all these selfies. He does have a body like a Greek god if you're into that kind of thing. I always say if my husband starts pumping iron, working out five hours a day, I'm getting a divorce because I want him at work, dialing that phone and punching that computer laptop, you know, get to work, get out of the gym. Okay, just stay alive. That's all you got to do. This guy was just totally pumped up. It made me wonder if he used steroids.

So anyway, he meets this gorgeous young mom, Memoree Rackley. There is no relationship, and he gets obsessed. Just before, to Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, just before he comes and follows her as she's walking her two little boys home from elementary school, he put ominous postings on the web. One was a creepy clown. One was a little boy saying, I've got a secret, but I can't tell you. Then he made this post about Memore saying, I met you six months ago and I'm so in love and I'm proud of you, but you keep me a secret. Why? What do I have to do to stop you from keeping me a secret? Well, I'd want to keep him a secret too, for Pete's sake. Especially, you know, if I'm trying to get back with my husband, blah, blah. And I've got this, this bodybuilder thud chasing me around town. Wendy, all the signs were there. She called police when he wouldn't stop calling her and nothing was done. Wendy Patrick. Yeah. The problem that

nothing was done oftentimes is a sign of the times. And again, it goes back to this belief that gosh, if there are no signs and symptoms that we can photograph and we can document forensically, we're going to concentrate on the murders. You know, law enforcement doesn't want to think that that's the way they operate. And they really don't. They do the best that they can. Sometimes it's a function of really trying to get the evidence they need, but sometimes they're unaware that the law does criminalize the kinds of things that we're talking about. We don't have to wait until somebody breaks in, until somebody's got an injury, until somebody is shot in the stomach in front of the Daily Mail in New York City. We don't have to wait for that.

There is clearly enough. And Nancy, I think the fact that we're all discussing it today is the kind of thing we need to do more to let everybody know that there is help and that there are things law enforcement will do and that we are taking this far more seriously. I can't tell you how many stalking cases I've prosecuted that jurors are thrilled that somebody took this seriously because the evidence is there. The evidence of calling of unwanted conduct. Some of these cases, I mean, these guys are so bold as to show up when the woman's on another, on a date with another man, that kind of boldness, unfortunately translates with how easy it is

to get done into deadly results. So I think what we can do collectively is what we're doing right now is letting everybody know you don't need to wait until any kind of physical injury is inflicted to have a righteous stocking case that can be prosecuted and convicted in a court of law. You know, another issue, and I'll give you amen to that one, Wendy Patrick. You know, in this case of Memoree Rackley, Sean Walsh, DailyMail.com, there were all the warning signs. He was posting these ominous threats on social media. He was calling and texting her nonstop. She called police to make him leave her alone.

And within 72 hours of that phone call, she was dead, Sean Walsh. He went to the elementary school and waited, lay in wait for her to come out with her two little boys. When she saw him and flagged down a Good Samaritan lady in a car and got in the car, he rammed the car with his pickup from behind and the car stopped and he jumped out and opened fire. He shot her dead. He shot her six-year-old little boy, Jace, dead. He shot an 11-year-old girl that happened to be in the car with her mom and everybody else ran for their lives. Can you imagine her 11-year-old son running for his life

and looking back and seeing his mom bleed out, trying to protect the six-year-old son running for his life and looking back and seeing his mom bleed out, trying to protect the six-year-old little boy. I mean, Sean, it made me physically sick when I read about that. You know, Sean, my children, my twins are 10. Yeah. Can you imagine my little babies turning around and seeing me protect their twin as they had to run away from me bleeding out on the street, Sean Walsh? Nancy, it's horrendous, and they'll live with this for the rest of their lives.

And, I mean, witnesses on the scene said that he was truly determined to get that car. He was out to get her. She had no hope. And look at the tragic ending. I mean, it's what nightmares are made of. You know, Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator and forensics expert, joining me. Joe Scott, I can't really

stress it enough. You're a death scene investigator. How many just, I want you to dig deep, murder scenes and death scenes that you've evaluated have been a result of domestic relations.

I still, to this day, remember the very first so-called murder-suicide, and that's commonly what we refer to them as, that I worked in New Orleans back in the early 80s, and still to this day I remember the last one I ever worked in Atlanta all those years later in the 2000s before I went into academia. It's akin to a dog chasing its tail in the yard. Nothing ever gets accomplished. There's a disconnect with reality I've found.

People do not believe this is going to happen to them. I've stood over the bodies of countless people, not only at the scene, but also in the morgue. And when you're sitting there and you're looking at these people, many of them, you know, in the flower of their youth, and they've lived out this fantasy world, both the perpetrator and maybe to a certain extent the victims, where they don't believe that occurs many times, and young women are just oblivious to it many times. They don't realize the danger that they put themselves in. I found it very interesting a moment ago.

You were talking to Karen about this fellow showing up with chocolates and flowers, and isn't that a real dichotomy when you think that, yeah, he shows up with flowers and he shows up with chocolates. And then the next thing he shows up with is a firearm. And that's the way it goes down many times where this happens. They reach out to these people. They try to get their attention to service their own purposes. And when they can't have them, it's like some petulant child that finally throws a fit, kills this poor innocent person, and then attempts to take their life. Many times they succeed. many times they fail, and many times in this particular case, you've got just innocent bystanders that were there trying to help these people,

and now these children have been scarred for life. This one child that's in this war is horrible. They're covered with blood. Just from this good Samaritan, just stopping to try to help this poor woman. Let me ask you, Ron Rail, LA lawyer, high profile lawyer specializing in restraining orders. I believe that women have too much confidence in restraining orders. And I say that because I've handled so many cases where women were chased and shot and tortured and beaten that had restraining orders. In addition to prosecuting for 10 years. I worked as a volunteer in an Atlanta battered women's center for nine years at night, and I heard it over and over and over.

And one of our specialties was helping women get restraining orders. And they think they're safe. But Ron Rill, I mean, in my experience, they're not safe. Well, if somebody has your number and they're determined to get you, we know what can happen. All I am saying is you want to do anything, use every bit of ammunition that you have to try to stop this person from coming after you.

And so there's probably not a statistic about how many violent crimes are averted because somebody had a restraining order. And the earlier you get them into the system, the better. And that's why I'm a big proponent, before you even get to the district attorney, go in yourself to family court and get a restraining order. Somebody sends you 25 text messages five days in a row. You're on to something. The DA may or may not prosecute. They may not file the case.

Go file one yourself and get a restraining order. And when you have them in the system earlier on, I think that you're stacking the odds in your favor. Yeah, of course, if the person wants you, they're going to get you, right? If they really, really are determined, of course it's a problem. But how many of these crimes are averted because of this? And the people in the system getting a restraining order, then somebody violates the restraining order before the DA is even involved. Take them to court yourself. Get a contempt order. Try to get the judge, the family judge,

to throw them in jail. There's things that you can do that you want to try to use all available options to protect yourself. And so why not? I don't think there's a reason not to. Well, you know, another thing, Ron Real, I'm painting a pretty bleak picture, but the reality is Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, I'm looking at it from a different perspective because every woman I came in touch with was either dead or she was an aggravated assault, shooting, beating victim, or she was in a battered women's shelter. She'd already been beaten to smithereens. So my world experience is the very worst had already happened. And as I'm listening to Ron Rail talk, that's probably just a percentage of all the thousands of women that get restraining orders every day.

And I'm just seeing this minuscule percentage that suffered the worst. So I guess what I'm trying to say, Wendy Patrick, is Ron Rail may have a very good point. He sure does. And, you know, both Ron and Sean have talked about this, Nancy, as have you. There's an additional component here. There are many women and men who are afraid to run out and get restraining orders. They should. Gosh, they all should.

But they don't want to bring drama to the workplace. They're not really sure if it's stalking because they don't know what the text of the law says. They're not really sure whether to take it seriously or whether getting a restraining order will make the stalker more dangerous and angrier. Ron, I'm sure you can relate to this. We've all seen cases where sadly that happens. Not all of them. But that's a real fear that many victims have is they're afraid that simply the act of going and getting a restraining order is going to make it that much worse. They mistakenly believe, Nancy, that they can take care of it on their own, which is the huge mistake a lot of these people make. One of the issues you brought up earlier, though, is one of the other ways in which women and men can protect themselves.

You mentioned that sometimes, and I like to say this is called hiding in plain sight, you keep seeing the same person at the grocery store or the gas station, somebody that maybe is an acquaintance of yours. Maybe you never went out with them once. So according to Sean, they never become an ex. But they're just around a little too close for comfort. That in and of itself should be a red flag, something on the radar, something to keep an eye on. It may not justify a restraining order, as Ron would tell you, but it's still something that we need to protect ourselves from because that's the way it starts. This unhealthy obsession that is often very visible to some of these victims when they keep seeing the same person turn it up again and again. With me, Ron Real, high-profile LA lawyer specializing in restraining orders, California prosecutor, Wendy Patrick, renowned

New York psychologist, Kieran Stark, forensics expert, professor at Jacksonville State-S, killed, gunned down, gosh, I just hate to even say it, was near the top of her class and already accepted to FSU. And the case of Janira Nicole Gonzalez. Janira Nicole Gonzalez, shot dead at Northlake College in Dallas, Texas, simply sitting there studying in a community studying area. Those two cases, the victims dead because of stalkers. I want to thank our partners that are making our program today possible. It's Link AKC.

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You're not going to get that at the pet store. 30% off and free shipping on your order if you use code NANCY at linkakc.com. Code NANCY at linkakc.com. Save 30% off with free shipping. Hello, I think I'm going to get another one. Linkakc.com. Code NANCY. I want to switch gears and go to the two stories i mentioned first out to sean walsh with dailymail.com regarding the facts on janira nicole gonzalez janira nicole gonzalez just 20

years old when she is shot three times dies immediately in a common study area at Northlake College in Dallas, Texas. And here is the kicker. She didn't even know she had a stalker. Sean Walsh with me, DailyMail.com. What happened with Janira Nicole Gonzalez? This case is truly tragic because this is a girl that was killed by someone she was not in a relationship with and did not want a relationship with. So her family claims that the guy that killed her was obsessed with her, even though the two were never in a relationship.

In fact, she was dating someone else. So he became completely obsessed and he killed her on campus. It's truly chilling. You know, you're right about that. Agent Victor Torres, a 20-year-old guy, is her killer. She was sitting there in the study area studying. When he comes in with a gun, shouts out, you know who I am and why I'm here. Translation, you have no idea who I am or why I'm here.

And I don't think she even realized what was happening. If you look at her picture, she looks like she's about 14 years old. And I saw a picture of her father just crying about his little girl. She was a kinesiology student set to graduate in just a couple of weeks with great grades. She had never even dated this guy before. Karen Stark, psychologist out of New York, how does that happen? Well, in this case, too, he believes that unless she loves him and unless she responds to him, that he's not worthwhile. And the saddest thing, Nancy, is that I don't think she understood that this was something that's threatening. I think

that's what happens all the time with women. Either they are flattered by it or they don't take it seriously enough. And in a public space like that, if you're being stalked, you really have to be careful to look around you to see if anyone is familiar. You know, that's quite the dichotomy, though, to Joe Scott Morgan, forensics expert. You say, try not to be isolated, but here she is in a public place, and he still gets her and guns her down in a communal study area at the college. Nancy, I'm a university professor, and it's not just the communal study area. It is the nature of an academic environment where you have this campus community that's there.

And keep in mind, no matter what the admissions office does at any university, you can't vet where people come from. You don't know what their psychological profile is. So you get a group of people together and they're just kind of mashed in together. You develop this relationship, this community relationship. You don't know the background of anybody there. I don't know what this fellow's background was, but I do know he targeted this young girl and ended her life very tragically in an environment that most of us just assume, just assume is going to be very, very safe and protected. And certainly when we send our kids off to college, we expect them to be safe and protected.

This leads me to Sean Walsh, DailyMail.com, the case of Larissa Barrows. And for some reason, this case, I just can't get her off of my mind. Larissa had overcome so much. She was an 18-year-old girl, and she was a teen mom. But that didn't stop her. She was near the top of her class and set to graduate from Liberty High School in two weeks. Based on her stellar grades, she had already been accepted into FSU, Florida State University, which is inundated with applications every year.

She was already accepted two weeks to graduation. The killer, Kai Williams, had already been in jail for stalking her. He had already been ordered to stay away from Larissa Barrows. He had slashed her tires. He had broken into her window. That day, that had already sent over 1,000 texts. He had gone to her car, broken in the window again, and set her seat, the driver's seat of her Chevy Cobalt on fire, which psychologically is very telling that he goes to where she sits in the car and sets the car on fire. He was arrested for that. But prosecutors dropped the case, claiming they didn't have enough evidence. Are you kidding me?

In Orange Osceola jurisdiction. And now she's dead. How does that prosecutor look in the mirror every day and say, well, I didn't take it to trial because I didn't have enough evidence? What? With all that track record? Who else do you think set her car on fire in the driver's seat? I mean, think about it.

It's called circumstantial evidence, for Pete's sake. And even if you don't win, at least go down in glory. I mean, think about it. It's called circumstantial evidence for Pete's sake. And even if you don't win, at least go down in glory. At least try. Go down guns a-blazing. Because this girl might still be alive for Pete's sake. Larissa Beros is dead. And I have listened to part of her 911 call when she's saying he's here. He's trying to get in.

I'm afraid he's going to kill me and my little boy. He got in, Sean Walsh. He got in all right, didn't he? Nancy, these are the most chilling 911 tapes you will ever hear. She's on the phone pleading, my ex-boyfriend's breaking into the house, I have an injunction against him, please send the police quick. She can then be heard screaming, back up, back up, what do you want?

And then there's a man's voice in the background yelling and struggling with her. The operator tries to get her back on the phone, but she never returns to the line. He kills her. It's absolutely terrible. And authorities have said that she did everything she possibly could in the two years leading up to it to stay away from this guy, to let the police know that there was an issue. And so it astounds me how prosecutors could not find a reason to prosecute this guy if there was more than enough evidence. You know, when you are describing that 911 call, that's just what we were hearing that time.

She had called 911 so many times, so many times. What went wrong? Why wasn't he in jail, Sean Walsh? I mean, Nancy, I have absolutely no idea. I'm stumped with this one because you would think, Nancy, you're a former prosecutor. You would think that this guy would have been behind bars and not have been able to have been out to kill this beautiful 18-year-old. Nancy, she was two weeks from graduating, two weeks. 9-1-1, where's the emergency I need I need a police um but my sister's

banker just came to the house and I was outside and I pulled and he pulled right in front of me and he looked like he was pulling the gun so I just hit him and he he he I need a police please oh my sister's in the house and my baby. One moment, please. Please can you hear me? I'm talking to my sister in the warm house. Hello? Hello?

What is it? Hello? What is the... Can I know your sister's name? How old are you? Please. Why don't you... I just want to know this.

I got a call from my sister. Please. You know, Justice Scott Morgan, death investigator, by the time you and I get a case like this, the victim is buried, the funeral is over, and we're trying to piece together all the pieces to seek justice. But when I, this happened to me in court every single time, when I hear the 911 call, it feels like it's happening at that moment.

And I just want more than anything to try to fix it, Joe Scott. Moving forward, you have to look at this and say, is this young girl's life going to have been wasted as a result of this? Or is there a lesson that can be learned moving forward? And I think that there are lessons on the side of both the psychological side of the house, to a certain degree, the forensic side, but most certainly the prosecutorial side. And then, of course, we come to the general public awareness. I think that you've put this out there, and this is key to this, because this is real, Nancy. This is not something that's, it's not a fantasy. We, you and I both stood over bodies. We've looked at the wreckage. I'm thinking about this poor child, you know, and she was a child that has died now at the hands of this person. And look at the wreckage that's left behind by her child

that is now left motherless and fatherless as a result of this behavior. And we have to learn from this moving forward. This has been a cycle that's going on forever and ever and ever and ever. And it seems like it just never stops. It never stops. To Karen Stark, Karen, tell me your advice. The advice is that women need to, and men, if this happens to be the other way around, and it sometimes does occur, you have to be vigilant to do the best you can. Not to say that responsibility is on the victim, but if you believe that someone is excessive, if they seem obsessive, which means that they are constantly calling, constantly texting, not leaving you alone, sending you gifts that you really have not asked for or wanted, then you need to know that this is not a healthy thing, that something is really wrong.

You have to tell everyone around you. You have to notify where you work, the people where you work. Not be embarrassed because you're protecting yourself. You need to let your relatives know. You need to watch who is around you if you're in a public space. You must change the route is around you if you're in a public space. You must change the

route of how you go to work and not be consistent in any of your behaviors so that this person can't follow you. You must be very, very cautious. And the important thing is that you're talking about it now, Nancy, so people can be aware. It is not a good thing. It is not that someone is loving you and caring too much. It's dangerous. I agree with Karen Stark and with Ron Rail, with Joe Scott Morgan, Sean Walsh, and Wendy Patrick. It is not romantic. It is not okay.

It is a crime. Number one, do not ignore a stalker. That's a common reaction. If you don't think about it, it'll go away. That doesn't work. In fact, it gets worse. Two, be alert. Three, avoid contact. You must. Four, enhance security, locks, alarms, cameras. Change your route to work or school. Five, inform people in your life about the threat. Have them on alert. Six, save, document all messages, voicemails, letters, cards, gifts. Seven, photo document all items damaged.

If your car is keyed, if your tires are slashed, if your door is kicked in. Eight, trust your instincts. Nine, develop a safety plan. Listen to me. Listen to all of us. We know. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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