Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Stand your ground? Can you kill if attacked by popcorn?

Episode Date: March 2, 2017

A judge will soon decide if a retired police captain was within his rights to shoot to death a man who threw popcorn at him during an argument over cell phone use in a movie theater. It is the latest controversial case involving Florida’s “stand your ground” law. Curtis Reeves testified that he feared for his life when Chad Oulsen tossed a bucket of popcorn at him. If the judge decides Reeves’ fear was reasonable, the 75-year-old man will avoid a murder trial. Oulsen’s wife, Nicole, also suffered a wound to her left hand in the shooting. Her lawyer T.J. Grimaldi discusses the case with Nancy Grace in this episode of “Crime Stories.” Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. The 73-year-old retired police officer, accused of killing a man after an argument over a cell phone in a movie theater, took the stand in his own defense. It's a life issue. At that theater took the stand in his own defense. It's a lying issue. At that point, it was his life or mine. This is Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Reeves is using Florida's controversial stand-your-ground law in a hearing,

hoping to avoid going to trial. Reeves says he asked Olson to put his phone away during the movie previews, and an argument ensued. He says Olson first threw his cell phone during the movie previews, and an argument ensued. He says Olson first threw his cell phone at him, hitting him in the head, before grabbing his popcorn and throwing that at him as well. He was getting ready to punch me, and I perceived that at some point, and that's when the pistol came. It was his life or my life. That's what a retired chief of police says.

He shoots a moviegoer dead in a cinema for texting. This is the way it all goes down. Everybody, welcome to Crime Stories. I'm Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us. I'm stunned right now about a case that's coming out of Wesley Chapel. It's very close to Tampa. I've actually gone down there and looked at this cinema myself to see what it was all about, to see the scene.

There are wide swaths of land that is undeveloped. It's a beautiful stretch of marsh in Florida. Then suddenly out of nowhere jumps up Wesley Chapel and it looks new. You know how you can tell an old subdivision or an old strip mall versus the new ones. The whole place looks new and the neighborhoods there are very, very nice, very upscale. So this 16 movie theater is where the shooting went down. And this is what we know. It's in court right now. And the judge is trying to determine if this retired police captain, Curtis Reeves, 74 years old, can advance the, quote, stand your ground defense. What that means in Florida and a few other states is that if you are attacked and you're in fear for your life,

you do not have to retreat. You can stand your ground and fight back with force only necessary to fight back. Now, this is what Curtis Reeves says in his own words, a retired police captain, 74 years old. He says he goes in, the guy in front of him, we're in the previews, we're not even in the movie, Lone Survivor. I mean, really? You're that mad about a preview problem? So the guy in front of him is with his wife,

and he's texting. He's not talking on the phone. He's texting during the previews. It's a matinee. There are not that many people there. He leans over to the guy and says, hey, put away your phone. You're not supposed to be texting. Well, the guy says, hey, leave me alone. I'm texting my babysitter. She's with my little girl. Well, he doesn't stop texting. Reeves says it again. He goes, I'm going to call management. So he goes and he tattletales to the manager.

Then he comes back in. He sees the guy, Olson, is no longer texting. Olson's sitting there with his wife. Olson is a 43-year-old married father and a Navy veteran. So Reeves, the police captain, leans forward and goes, yeah, okay, I see you are no longer texting after I had to bring in management. So basically a nanny nanny boo boo. Well, that makes Olson mad. He turns around and he knocks Reeves popcorn onto him. The next thing you know, Reeves says, and the pistol came out. Like the pistol all on its little old self just comes out of his pocket and shoots Olsen dead. Dead. Over texting and buttered popcorn. Now, Reeves is saying that Olsen threw his cell phone at him.

But Reeves' own wife is sitting next to him, and she says, I never saw him get hit. He told me at the time he got hit, but I never saw that part. She's sitting next to him in the theater. How can you not see it? So that's what went down in a Wesley Chapel movie theater. You go in, you're texting, you get in a fuss with another moviegoer. You're dead. You are dead.

Just before or just as he stood up, I heard something about theater manager. But I think it was in a conversation with his wife not it was very loud so I think it was he was just being loud so now his motion and swinging around got my eye he's right off to my right here caught my eye almost immediately when I looked up he was coming over the seat at me across the front of where my wife was and he had I saw just a snapshot of a something dark in his hand almost immediately I saw what I perceived to be a glow from a light, a screen, right in front of my face, and I was hit in the face. Loud, but he was facing the other way.

After I got hit, then he was facing me, and he was very loud at that point. And what was he saying? A lot of sentences with the F word. I'm going to kick your F and ass. I'm going to F you. If it was any of your F in business, I was texting my effing daughter. Was he continuing to move in your direction? He was reaching for me.

And so what did you have to do as he was reaching for you? When I realized that he had gotten much closer and that he was, I guess there's a thing where you see somebody getting ready to set up to punch you. And he was getting ready to punch me, and I perceived that at some point, and that's when the pistol came out. And what did you do with that pistol? I shot him. Did you want to shoot him? Absolutely not. So why did you shoot him?

Well, at that point, it was his life or mine. Did you feel he was going to hurt you? No question about it. Now here's the catch with this whole stand your ground thing. If this judge rules that Curtis Reeves, age 74, retired police captain, can claim

stand your ground, it's over. They're not even going to trial. He cannot be tried. I mean, okay, before I get too crazy on this, SimpliSafe, thank you for being with us and making this podcast possible. SimpliSafe allows everybody in America to have home security. I have home security. I bet Alan Duke has home security. My mother has home security. Why shouldn't you? Many people think they can't afford it. SimpliSafe, $14.99 a month. And if you go to simplisafe.com slash Nancy, you get 10% off. There is no real reason not to have

home security, especially when you have children that you need to protect, like I do. Simply say thank you. Okay, Alan Duke, the Duke with me. Alan, you understand that's his whole defense, okay? That he was afraid the guy was going to, what, attack him? He threw his popcorn at him. I think that's a pretty good sign that's all you're going to get. If that's all you got is you throw some buttered popcorn at somebody, you shoot him? He also claims that he threw his cell phone at him i just said that alan let's not be redundant i'm saying it it's not just popcorn it's also a cell phone have you

looked at the video yes i have you can't really tell a lot from that grainy video i can see the popcorn get thrown and then i can see him curt Reeves, stretch out his arm and shoot straight ahead. He shot the guy in the chest dead. Okay. Now, the defense claims that they have enhanced the video and that you can see the screen of the phone going toward Reeves. I can't see that. It was pointed out that a cell phone is the weight of a baseball.

And can you imagine getting hit by a baseball? Can you imagine getting shot in the chest? No. Okay. Think about it. Here's the problem with the stand your ground law. I cannot believe you're taking the side of the shooter. I'm pointing something.

Yes, you are, Alan. Yes, you are. I'm pointing it out that the stand your ground law in Florida is the problem with it is it says that a person may use deadly force in self-defense if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm. If you reasonably believe now this man and he's not a young man but he's an experienced law enforcement officer says he reasonably believed that that cell phone and that popcorn might be followed with a fist and who knows what else oh good gravy you know

i'm looking at the crime scene photos right now at the Grove Cobb 16 Theater in Wesley Chapel and I see the popcorn but I don't see a cell phone on the ground where's the cell phone if he threw a cell phone where is it I don't think the the investigators believe there was a cell phone that was thrown but that's what he says he thought happened I don't see one well he should know if he got hit in the face his wife didn't see him get hit in the face. He's sitting right beside him. The problem is that... The problem is he shot him dead.

The problem is the standard is if you reasonably believe that you're about to be killed or suffer great bodily harm, and it's all in your mind. What if this whole thing with the stand your ground Florida law, if you're afraid of a certain type of person, let's say a person of a certain race or size or whatever. Both of these people were white. Don't try to drag race into it. That's what makes this thing so simple and to the point. Quote, that's when the pistol came out.

When it just came out on its own out of your little pocket, it started firing itself. Remember the cartoon Quick Draw McGrawraw he's just real fast i never saw that you know when i was a kid i used to practice drawing my toy pistol out of my my toy holster to see how fast i could this guy was a retired police officer and he was really quick 27 years with the Tampa Police Department. Oh, oh, let me tell you something else I learned in the testimony, Alan. So police, I guess it was a sheriff, he had on a sheriff's uniform, came in to testify, and he says he got there, and he heard the wife, Reeves, the police captain's wife, say, you shouldn't have shot him over that. and that Reeves turned to his wife and said shut the

F up yeah why do wives always have to stick their opinion in on something like this you're quiet you know what Alan you like that ponytail you've got on the back of your head because I got a little pair of scissors and I can snippy snippy a lot of things a lot of appendages alan you talk about stand your ground but what about standing by your man she's telling the truth she's telling the truth you have to shoot him what is he going around with a a gun in the movie theater anyway now that's a whole right to bear arms argument i'm not going to get into because but it just shows that you need to have a gun in a theater because somebody else might have a gun. Well, here's the other thing

about stand your ground. If you start or provoke the confrontation, even if you then become reasonably in fear, if you started the whole thing, you cannot claim stand your ground. You can't start it. And then when they fight back so oh i'm scared and shoot the person dead uh-uh it doesn't work like that so you think he started it because he didn't he objected to the guy using his phone in the theater which is an annoying thing i'll tell you why i think he started it because he has been a police captain for many many years and he's retired and he's not used to anybody saying no no I'm not going to do what you said and he got buttered popcorn thrown on him and it was just too much for him and he shot

the guy that is really what I think that is what I think happened his wife cannot corroborate that he was hit in any way Olson's wife cannot corroborate that her husband hit Reeves in any way. And let me tell you something. Olsen left behind a wife and a family in 30 seconds. This woman's life changed forever. Yes. Her husband shot dead in front of her. He's never going to come home again. He's got a family that will never see their father again because of 74 year old retired police captain

curtis reeves that one moment of lack of self-control of lack of restraint and he left this father this husband this good man dead and nicole was shot to nicole olson the wife that's right the, she was shot in the arm. Actually, the left hand. Excuse me, the hand. And on the finger with her wedding ring, that finger. She just sits in court like she's in a daze, the victim's wife. All over what? I guess ego, I'm not really sure. But I will do a complete back flip. back flip, if this guy gets to claim stand your ground. It's just wrong. If he wants to go to court to trial in front of a jury and claim,

I reasonably thought I was being attacked and this is self-defense, then try it with a jury. But this needs to go to a jury to hear all the facts. Because if he wins right now, it's not even going to a jury trial. And I don't like that at all. Not at all, Alan. T.J. Grimaldi is with us, Nicole's lawyer. He's been sitting in court with her throughout.

T.J., thanks so much for being with us here at Crime Stories. How is Nicole Olson? How's she holding up? You know, I'll tell you, she was doing great when this whole thing started, meaning much better than I would have expected. As it got closer in time for her to testify last week, it became difficult on her. You could tell that she was reliving it again in her mind right before taking the stand. And you could tell that she was nervous as she didn't exactly know what was coming her way question-wise. And then she was fine again until Mr. Reeves took the stand.

And that was very, very difficult for her to hear. Not only was she having to relive it again and hear it from the person who murdered her husband's mouth, but the things that were coming out of his mouth, either the lies in her opinion or the changes of his story, really got to her, and you could tell it was very, very tough for her to handle. What do you make of Reeves's demeanor on the stand? I disagree with the stand your ground defense in his case. I don't think it applies because I think he provoked this. I could tell he was very measured and in control on the stand. What did you think? I think from the outset, you could tell that

his responses were extremely rehearsed. And I think you can tell that for two reasons. One, he's obviously a seasoned law enforcement officer, so he knows how to answer questions and probably did have to answer questions back when he was a law enforcement officer. And then he's obviously been very well coached by his current attorney. He, in my opinion, did not have much, if any, emotion other than when he was talking about the fact that he had children and he helped raise them and when he had cancer. Beyond that, I felt absolutely no emotion with his answer. In fact, he might have stated that he was in fear, but other than stating the words, I was in fear for my life, or I thought that it was a life or death situation.

I had no feeling that that's truly what he felt. More importantly, the defense tried to drive home that Mrs. Reeves was in fear of her life. And because they were married for so long, he should know about her fear. And therefore, he was using stay in your ground not only to protect himself but to protect her and you could he never brought that up so any fear that she may have had he didn't know about it lastly i completely agree that stay in your ground is is not uh should not be used in in this case however i also feel that it's the only chance they have to try to beat the charges. How is the whole family doing? It's not just the wife, there's children involved. Luckily, the child, the young daughter is young enough to the point where she doesn't quite understand what's going on. You know, she definitely knows that dad's not around anymore. But beyond that,

I think she's still young enough to where she's not really quite grasping why dad is gone and what is happening now for these extended two-week period. The extended family beyond the children are having difficult times as well. His mother, mother, meaning Chad's mother, Chad's sister, have been there the entire time, and Chad's brother has recently come this week, and they're having a very difficult time hearing what they're hearing, seeing what they're seeing, and just being exposed to the entire trial, for lack of a better term, just because they haven't been as inundated as Nicole has from the beginning with this. But it has definitely taken the toll on the entire family, Nicole's brothers included. I don't understand why Reese was not charged with murder one as opposed to just murder two to start with.

What was behind that you know obviously i'm not a prosecutor so i i'm not really privy to their charging uh recommendations and charging decisions however in my opinion and especially based on the case the anthony uh trial in particular i felt that the state attorney felt confident in just charging murder two because they knew they could get that conviction. Murder one would be as equated to the Casey Anthony where they were shooting for the stars to get the largest possible conviction they could when it was unnecessary here for two reasons. One, murder two is much easier for them to prove because I believe of the premeditation issue. And number two, there's a mandatory minimum in Florida of 25 years for murder of the second degree with a firearm and a mandatory minimum of 20 years, 25 for the murder and 20 years for the assault with a deadly

weapon. So because of his age, no matter what they get, he's going to see his last days while he's in prison. Now what happens next? Well, the state has two more days, unless this thing continues on beyond that. The state has two more days to close their case. Then the judge will, I am more than than sure take some time before she enters her order. I do not believe she's going to enter her order Friday afternoon or immediately following whatever the hearing closes for that matter. If it does finish Friday I would assume you know hopefully earlier this week we would have her findings and her order, whether it's just a verbal announcement or some written order with an explanation. I am hoping for and still assuming that that order and result will be that she is denying the motion for stay on your ground.

At that point, the defense obviously has a couple decisions to make. Do they have appealable issues and do they try to appeal the order of the court? Do they start talking a plea or do they start preparing for trial? Then in the alternative, if she somehow grants this motion, which again, I cannot see happening, the state would have to determine if they could, can, and would appeal the order. TJ, please pass on to Ms. Olson that I feel so bad for her and have lifted her up in prayers. I just can't imagine going to the theater, finally getting to go out with your husband and go see a movie, and you've got the babysitter and the whole thing lined up and he dies right in front of you in a dark theater. It's just almost too much to take in over texting. TJ, thanks so much. Thank you for the kind words and thank you very much for having me on.

Now we all know the famous stand your ground defense with George Zimmerman who gunned down a teen boy, Trayvon Martin. Zimmerman, the captain of the neighborhood watch, basically follows the teen around, and then when the teen turns on him, he shoots him dead. A jury actually acquitted George Zimmerman. I still don't understand how that happened, but then just six months after Zimmerman's acquittal, which triggered a lot of anger over Florida's stand-your-ground law, there was another case. This one was over Michael Dunn. Now, Dunn was accused of killing a 17-year-old boy, Jordan Davis,

after having an argument with him about Jordan Davis's loud music in a convenience store parking lot. Seriously? I mean, now that was actually a murder accusation, as opposed to the one we're talking about right now, which is a murder too. Experts have disagreed on Florida's Stanger ground law. To me, it sounds like a hyped-up self-defense. Now, in Dunn, there was a conviction. There was a conviction in that one. Dunn's behavior after he shoots Jordan dead, he and his girlfriend go check into a hotel and have drinks. And I think they had dinner. I just like there was no remorse whatsoever after that, which I think

played right into the prosecution's story. I mean, they left the scene. I don't think that helped. Now here, Reeves did not leave the scene. He sat there. But I think there's been a big backlash against Stand Your Ground, Alan. Two cases you've mentioned, the Dunn case and then the Zimmerman case, had racial implications and that complicated emotions and the whole debate. But this one is much different in the way that you look at it simply because you can't say, well, it was a racially motivated shooting. Can we just take the race out of it and talk about the facts? Because in Dunn, what he said to his girlfriend is,

I hate that thug music. All that worked against him, as it should have, as it should have. But the leaving and going to a hotel and having a couple of drinks after you shoot somebody, I mean, dang, that hurts. So we're on pins and needles waiting to see where the stand your ground defense goes with this retired police captain who was pretty darn mad. Somebody threw popcorn in his face. So he shot him dead.

If he does get off on this, that miracle that you say will not happen happens and the judge sides with this guy. If it does, what does it say to other people? And what does it mean for the future? The floodgates will open. You'll have stand your ground defenses all over the state of Florida. That's what will happen. And justice will not prevail. That will, that is what will happen. Will it cause people to be quicker to draw? They will be emboldened. They will be emboldened. Okay. We're on pins and needles waiting for the latest out of that courtroom there in Florida. And again, before we sign off, thank you, Simply Safe, for making our podcast possible.

Our podcast that is examining the Florida law, Stand Your Ground, that has created so much furor and dissension amongst legal experts and court watchers alike. It's a very, very difficult concept to grasp. And not only that, it seems to be applied unevenly. SimpliSafe gives all of us a chance to have affordable home security. And I am very proud that they are our podcast sponsor. Not only that, it's so easy to install. John David, my nine-year-old son, could do it. They give you a video online to do it. And I'm just relieved that they have come through and filled the gap for so many people that want home security that think they cannot afford it. Thank you, Simply Safe.

Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Our eye on a Florida courtroom. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.