Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Starving tot-boy eating cereal scraps of floor

Episode Date: July 10, 2017

A stepfather accused of neglecting a disabled child told a judge the 5-year-old was not his responsibility. Suspicion about a stepmother grows in a missing child cold case. Why would a Georgia mom butcher her four kids and husband? Nancy Grace talks with Mark Klaas, Brian Claypool, Caryn Stark, Joseph Scott Morgan and Alan Duke about these stories in this episode. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. Special needs five-year-old Volusia County boy could not walk or talk and weighed less than 25 pounds. Police say the boy's stepfather denied any wrongdoing and claimed that he was a good father. Police say he added that he came from a rich family and the other two children living there that were his were well taken care of. What is most troubling is that there was another adult in the home

who did nothing for this little boy. A Florida couple accused of neglecting a five-year-old little boy. And you know what? When you say it like that, it's really putting perfume on the pig. Neglecting. That doesn't really say what happened. According to the Department of Children and Family Services, when investigators arrive at the home, there's a five-year-old boy lying in the floor. He weighs less than 25 pounds. When my son was five years old, of course, he's a little hoarse. But when my son was five years old, he already weighed like 80, 90 pounds for Pete's sake.

He weighs 125 right now and he's nine. This child, a five-year-old boy, weighs less than 25 pounds. He's lying in the floor attempting to eat cereal scraps off a filthy carpet. A five-year-old boy weighs less than 25 pounds, and he's crawling on the floor trying to get cereal scraps someone else left, dropped off of a filthy carpet. The little boy's hands and feet were orange, and he had peeling skin and blisters on his hands and feet. When asked, the stepfather said, he's not my responsibility. I'm not his real father. I come from a rich family. Okay, how far under the jail

can I put this guy and this child's mother? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories, and I want to thank you for being with us. Today, day one of our launch on SiriusXM Triumph 132. Thanks, everybody, for being with us. I can't tell you how thrilled our team is to join the all-star lineup at SiriusXM. Oh, yes, we will continue to fight crime.

We are all about breaking news, finding missing people, especially children, and shining a light on crime. Heating up cold cases, solving unsolved homicides, and arming you with information to help us stop crime. You know why? Because I believe we can make a difference in our world. And you know what? I'm going to start with this little boy on the carpet eating cereal, a cereal scrap, with me, my producer, the Duke, Alan Duke, joining me out of L.A.

And today, a special guest, a veteran defense attorney, Brian Claypool, joining us from his posh L.A. law offices. Brian Claypool at ClaypoolLawFirm.com. You've been around the block a couple of times. Give me one good reason. This father and mother should not go to jail and stay there. Twenty five pounds scraps of cereal. Brian, you're the defense lawyer. Let's hear it. Hey, Nancy, thrilled to be with you on your inaugural Sirius radio launch. It's an honor to be with you. And of course, you know, when I'm on with you, we're always at odds. And it's one thing to don't try to butter me up by saying how honored you are

to be here. Let's just jump right into the facts. OK, go ahead. Fair enough. It's one thing to think that somebody is guilty of a crime in this instance, child neglect, child endangerment, child abuse, but it's vastly different to actually prove those crimes beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law. And what I mean by that is there's a couple of facts that are missing in this tragic situation. Number one, what would that be? Well, a couple of couple of is there a past record of of the department of children and family services being called over to the home is there a history of neglect claypool i really appreciate that and i know that you do your very best and you win a lot of cases brian claypool but that's just like saying scott peterson never murdered any other wife there's

always a first time. And these two did it in spectacular fashion. Look, you never know. Down the road, you might need help from me. So don't throw me. Toss me under the bus. I think I'm on your speed dial as your criminal defense lawyer. So don't toss me under the bus so quickly.

The second fact, see? Okay? You're not immune from trouble. Please just give me some kind of a defense here. I mean, the fact that he's never been caught before doesn't make me feel any better. Here's the second most important fact, and hear me out on this. There has to be a medical examination of this child done to determine, you know, for example, was there a preexisting medical condition?

You mentioned a yellow color on the hand. Let's find out. Okay, go ahead. I'm listening. Let's find out whether there is some kind of medical condition that might have pre-existed this big global assumption that everybody's making that these parents were starving this child. So I think that's important. Well, he weighed less than 25 pounds. Nancy, that could be from a medical condition.

Right. And crawling on the floor trying to eat cereal scraps. I don't know about you, but I assume you have a table and chairs at your house where your family sits and eats instead of crawling on the carpet, eating off filthy carpet. And another thing, now that you got me started up, Brian Claypool. The other thing is this. The child had never had any form of education. No one had even taught him to speak, to communicate. He's like an animal.

How do you know that? How do we know that? Because that's in the police report. That's how I know it. The police said so. Nancy, come on. You're too smart for this. Don't fall for this trap. Don't fall for the police report? Okay. Hold on. Just give me a second, Brian. Give me a second. Let me write all this down. A, they never killed anybody before. B, possible pre-existing medical conditions c hey what's

wrong with eating on the floor even though i don't do it and what was the last one don't oh the police are lying okay go ahead well no and d the police aren't camping out at this residence to be able to verify that these these parents are not teaching the child. And E, there could be some kind of learning disability of this child that we don't even know about. That goes hand in hand with the need here to do some type of medical and mental health exam. Oh, don't worry about that. He's in the hospital right now where they're trying to save him from dying

from malnourishment he's in the intensive care unit and he's getting physical and speech therapy now what i don't like alan duke is the judge actually allowed the mother to visit him in the hospital according to wftv why should she get to visit him in the hospital when she's let this happen? Well, she is out of jail and she her husband. Don't rub it in. She is out of jail. In fact, she visited the court when her husband was brought into court very recently. They are losing the other two children. Apparently, there is a hearing coming up on the other two children. Those are his children, the one that were in perfectly good health.

We do know they have Brian Claypool. To address your legitimate point, I do know the little boy has been treated. He is. And this is the diagnosis from the doctors, unless you would like to tell me they're lying to. This little boy is clinically malnourished. He has not been fed according to the doctors. The mother, Naomi Hall, was arrested on child neglect and causing great harm. And as Alan pointed out, she's walked free on $35,000 bail. Now, Alan, you know what $35,000 means.

That means $3,500. You only have to put down 10%. She could hawk her car and get out. Or have a house worth $35,000 that you could put a property bond on, right? Now, the dad, Brian Hall, told cops he would not take a day off from work at Applebee's restaurant where he works to get medical care for the child. He made that statement that he would not take a day off of work to take the boy to the hospital. Quote, he's not my responsibility. I'm not his father.

I come from a rich white family. Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Brian, here's where you can jump in and defend him. I'm not his father. I come from a rich white family. Mm hmm. Uh huh. Brian, here's where you can jump in and defend him. Nancy. Yeah, sure. Nancy, look, if being dumb was a felony, this guy would be in jail. He'd be in a slant for 15 to 20 years.

But unfortunately, in this case, his lack of prudence and lack of common sense is not a crime. And the second part of it is, which is intriguing in this case, is does a non-natural parent of a child have a legal duty to be doing everything that you're talking about that we're assuming went wrong here? For example, failing to feed a child, failing to educate a child. My argument would be, and it's an uncomfortable argument because I'm a child advocate too, but let's undress the legal issues here. I don't believe he has the legal duty here to ensure that this child's safety is secured. I think that rests with the mom. Wouldn't you agree?

Because he's a stepfather. Now, hold on. Let's examine that. He's not a mandated reporter either. I don't believe that. That is an argument. And let me tell you something. When I would go into court every day,

I not only had to prepare my case, but I had to anticipate what the defense was going to say and be ready to shoot it down like a laser. OK, Alan, what are those? We're preparing them right now there. And it all started under Reagan, as I recall, the idea that you could shoot down an incoming missile. That's what you've got to do in court. And what Brian Claypool has just said is an argument, not that I believe it, of course, that could be made in court. So the state's got to be ready.

His argument among many of them is, this is not the little boy's natural father. So he had no duty to make sure the child lived. He's a stepfather. Let's look at that legally. The stepfather is legally married to the mother. This is her biological child. They are living together and have been in a legal marriage. So in my mind, to my knowledge of the law,

he cannot stand by and let the child starve. The child has never been in school, has never had any type of education at all. The child right now is near death. I don't know that the little boy is going to live. I think it's a pretty weak leg to stand on to say, I'm just his stepfather, and therefore I have no duty. In fact, that is what he said. He's not my kid.

Well, Nancy, this gets back to my point that I said at the onset, which is when you look at something on the surface, sounds bad, looks bad, smells bad. But that that that's not enough. That's not evidence to convict somebody here. And the lack of evidence here is do we know whether, for example, the this this this this Brian gentleman adopted? No, I don't think he was ever adopted, but I don't know that. But when you take on a duty, you go in as the parent, and you live in the home, and you're married to the mother.

I mean, to me, the mother, I can't believe she even got on $35,000. But that's not the end. I want to go to our next story. And I'm going to keep an eye. I'm just praying to God the little boy doesn't die. Alan, in another, I'm very disturbed about this. A convicted child molester moves right next door to his child sex attack victim. I'm just, I'm stunned. And not only that, that's bad enough, but an Oklahoma judge lets it happen.

Now, here's what the judge said. The judge says some craziness, like, now, under the law, current Oklahoma statute prevents sex offenders from living within 2,000 feet of a school, a daycare center, or a park. But the law says nothing about the actual victim. Now, see, the way I would have interpreted that, Brian Claypool, is if the law says you can't live 2,000 feet from a school or a daycare or a park, then you certainly can't live 2,000 feet from your victim,

the child you molested and went to jail over. Instead, the Oklahoma judge says, since they didn't mention the victim, I guess you can live there. What? Well, Nancy, I think the problem here is the legislature in Oklahoma. Are they snoozing on the jobs? Yeah, I have to agree with you on that. What kind of tap water are they drinking in Oklahoma?

I don't know what's going on. I don't know what's going on with that. That law is not cleared up. I've got to tell you, Brian, I have dealt with so many child molestation victims, so many rape victims. Let me tell you something. When this happens to you as a child, you never, ever get over it. The rest of your life, you're left feeling so helpless, so powerlessness. I mean, so powerless.

Nobody helped you. This happened to you. It happened to repeatedly and they feel humiliation and shame. It it can ruin the rest of your life. You can never get beyond what happened to you as a child. Yeah. Yes. Can I counter that? Hear me out on this for a second to be devil's advocate because I've represented. In fact, I was one of the lead lawyers on the largest child sexual abuse case in the history of our country. The Miramonte child abuse case that occurred against we litigated four years against the Los Angeles Unified School District.

And I will tell you that an argument can be made to the contrary to which is in some instances when children are abused, when they confront the abuser, like for example, the argument here is, well, this girl lives next door to this predator now, and she's going to be re-traumatized when she sees him. That's one argument. But a counter to that is some of these kids have not seen it. When they actually confront or see the molester, they can actually help them move along in their mental health progress. What? When you have to look at your molester, it helps you? This is going down in Bristow, Oklahoma, and it is a case that has caused outrage in an Oklahoma community as it should.

And the state leaders should be ashamed of themselves. Now, to their defense, this was a little known loophole in the law. And I get nervous whenever I have to say the word loophole because I know something bad is about to happen. The girl says, he's right there practically in my backyard. It makes me not want to go home ever. She says the perp, Harold English, has just been released from prison after conviction. This is not a charge. This is a conviction of molesting her when she was a little girl. She said, and according to her parents, she hoped she could move in next door, literally just over the fence. Oklahoma has got to change the law, and I'm shocked that an Oklahoma judge went along with this.

He did, however, take some steps to help. He issued a 1,000- thousand feet protective order for the family. I mean, I'm just overwhelmed about what this girl is going to have to go through. Right. But didn't, didn't he did do that? Didn't the judge in effect,

uh, almost kind of legislate himself pending. I believe there's a session that's going to come up in, uh, it's kind of, kind of odd though, that the a session that's going to come up in. It's kind of kind of odd, though, that the Oklahoma legislator is going to wait, I think, another several months before they even tackle this issue. But I think the judge kind of legislated himself. You know, it's interesting that you just said, Brian, I'm just wondering, what does it take

to have an emergency session? How many people does it take to correct the law? Anyway, this is what I know that's happening in Oklahoma right now. Outrage after a child molester literally moves next door to the victim. I want to thank our sponsor, our partner here at Crime Stories, Blue Apron. It's the number one fresh ingredient and recipe delivery service in our country.

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With us today on our very first SiriusXM radio program is Mark Klass. Mark Klass has been in my life for many, many years and has been an inspiration to me at times when I thought I could not go on and continue the fight against crime. I think of Mark Klass. Mark Klass has been a victim's rights champion since his daughter, Polly, was taken out of her home and killed. He has been the gold standard for victims across this country for many years. Mark, before I get to the issue today, which is a little boy missing,

I want to ask you how it is that you keep going. You know, people say, what's your secret? I don't really know what my secret is. But could you, how do you keep going? How do you get beyond losing Polly to continue the fight every single day? I don't know how you do it. Well, you have to, Nancy.

And first of all, thank you for all the very kind words, but one really has to. I surround myself with memories of Polly. I have my faith. I have my beautiful wife, Violet, my family that encourage me and that support me. And I,

I allow the anger that has driven me for so many decades now to, to, to stay at the top, to remind me that horrible things happen to wonderful people and that it doesn't have to be that way. That if we all work together and we work diligently and we keep our focus on the target, that we can save people from crime and we can protect people from evil doers. I really appreciate what you're saying right now, but, you know, after my fiancé was murdered

and the years that followed when I, you know, dropped out of school and decided to go to law school to be a prosecutor, I thought I knew it all about suffering and loss. when I think of what you went through. I don't know that I could even stand up and take a step. You're a real inspiration to me. Everyone with me is Mark Klass, who founded Klass Kids, Klass Kids Foundation. And he also is in charge of created Class Kids Search and Rescue. They're located out of Pensacola, Florida, and they do about 100 searches a year to help find missing people. Mark Class knows what he's talking about. He's been there. And that's why I'm going to him now in the search for a little boy,

Kyron Horman. I will never forget his face. Beautiful little gap tooth smile, a pair of glasses, kind of a little buzz cut. He was just seven years old, just seven. At the time he goes missing, in the weirdest circumstances, Kyron has a, as I recall, a science project. I'm doing this off the top of my head. A science project. There's a science fair that day at school. And his stepmother takes him to school. She says he goes in the building and he's never seen alive again.

He's never seen period. No trace of Kyron Horman. And I have studied and studied and studied this case. But now in the last hours, literally, the case is heating up. Help me out, Mark. What's happening? Well, there are several things that are happening. First of all, there is a grand jury that's been impaneled to listen to evidence in the case. And obviously, we have no idea what that evidence is.

But it's significant that seven years after a little boy dies, that they're still involved in those kinds of activities. There have been official, not volunteer, but there have been law enforcement ground searches for Kyron in the past couple of months, including one just this past week, I believe. So there's obviously new information that's been shared with them, whether it's through the grand jury or through other means, because they're also looking at computers. They're also looking at computer evidence from seven years ago. They've taken a computer that belonged to Kyron's stepmother and are doing some new forensic testing on that. And then they've also come and interviewed Kyron's stepmother down in Sacramento, where she

now lives, about a variety of things. She seems to have had a criminal history. There seems to have been a past murder for hire case against her. She has threatened a boyfriend recently. She's stolen a firearm recently. This is a woman that obviously has anger management issues so all of these things are sort of percolating at one time and uh hopefully as as kyron's mother you know so eloquently put it she'll be able to get up one morning and have have a resolution to this horrible mystery mark i cannot even imagine getting up as you, getting up in the morning with the knowledge that I don't know where my child is. And I haven't known that one day he goes to school or she goes to school and I never see them again. You know, I know my children are nine years old now.

But the other night, night before last, I took a picture of John David in his sleep. He was so precious. And I sneak in on him all the time and just look at them. I just can't even imagine how I'm going to get back to a stepmother. But am I missing a fact at all about the way Kyron went missing? What happened that day to your memory? Well, to my memory, she left about a two-second interval where he could have disappeared. She took him to school, as you said. I believe she watched him go up to the front, up to the door of his classroom, and then turned around. And I think that there was surveillance tape or a custodian or somebody that followed in

right after that that really narrowed that window where he could have possibly disappeared because she said he went into the school, he went to the door, and then somebody else saw that he wasn't there at all. And the indication is that this was a made up story that he was never at the school. Did anyone else ever see him at the school, Mark? Anybody else ever see him? No, nobody ever saw him after that point. I believe, like you said, there was a science fair and I think he was going in to participate or to to demonstrate his his project in the science fair but no she was the last person that ever saw him she left about a two-second window of opportunity

for him to disappear which is absolutely ludicrous nobody disappears in two seconds from public place now let me clarify that in my own mind you're saying she left a two-second window for him to disappear. And I guess that means she's saying she saw him walk into the door at school. And then I guess he'd have to disappear between the door and his classroom. Yes, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And there was nobody else. There was nobody else in the hallway until I believe a custodian came into the hallway and there was no Chiron there at all.

The search for Chiron Horman is closing down roads in Portland's West Hills area. According to Mark Klass and news outlets, the stepmother is being re-interviewed and computer searches have been done relating to her. What do we know about the computer searches? I'm just interested. They've never been done before. I can't even believe that myself. And I don't know what's new in computer science. It enables them to go deeper, perhaps, into communications or activity that occurred on the computer.

But I have to believe that they did forensic testing at the time, back in 2010. It was a pretty advanced system at that point. Maybe they're looking for something new on her computer. Well, they're saying that it's a computer that used to belong to her. Oh, okay. It's a computer that she has in her possession right now, but it is a computer that she was using at one point. What do we know about her, about the stepmother? Well, we know that she was at one point in time involved in bodybuilding. And if you've seen any pictures of her during that time, the inference, I think, is very

clear that she might have been using steroids. And we know that steroids do create problems. But that's just an opinion of mine. But we know that she is now divorced from Chiron's father, Father Kane Horman. And I believe that there was a domestic abuse incident there involving her. She's living in Sacramento. She recently stole her roommate's gun and he filed charges against her. Back in December, she threatened to stab a boyfriend who is now an ex-boyfriend. And back in 1990, there was a murder for hire plot against yet another boyfriend. So this is definitely a lady with some anger management issues. You know what's scary? You think you know someone and you let them be around your child in good faith,

not having any idea that you, the one that loves your child the most in the world, is actually opening the door for more sinister things to happen. The timeline goes down like this. It was a Friday, June 4, Skyline Elementary. It opens early so students and parents can tour the science fair. Okay, there's a big billboard outside that talks about the expo and a talent show. He was supposed to take part in the expo science fair and the talent show. Now, the stepmother arrives shortly after with her stepson, Kyron Horman. Okay? This is an important thing.

At 8.15, the president of the school PTA arrives and sees Kyron with his stepmother at the exhibit. 8.45, she leaves. She says she watches Kyron walk toward his classroom after they drop off the things, their stuff at the science fair. That's it.

That's it. Classes begin. At some point, the homeroom teacher reports him absent. Immediately, you've got Terry Horman, the stepmother, posting photos of Chiron at the science fair on her Facebook page. She goes to meet the school bus. Kyron has been absent all day. Kane, the husband, also went with her.

The Skyline School secretary places a call to 911 about, she calls about Kyron being missing. Not the stepmother, the school secretary. Look how many hours they've lost, Mark Klass. It's 3.46. He went missing with the stepmother at 8.45 a.m. Look at how much time they've lost. Time lost and opportunity gained for her to dispose of the body, one could say.

You know, rapid broadcast messages from the public school goes out to alert families of the missing student. Kyron Horman did not arrive at home today. It was broadcast to phones of parents across the school district. The search begins. To this day, Kyron Horman has not been found. Tip line 503-261-2847. Repeat, 503-261-2847. Question to you, Mark Klass, you said Kyron is dead. Why do you say that? Because there's been no word of him over the course of the past seven years.

Now, I know that one can hold on to the hope of another Elizabeth Smart resolution or another J.C. Dugard resolution, but those were different types of situations. Those were children that were literally taken by strangers. They were taken by strangers, and they were taken for a specific purpose, so that they could become sex slaves. In Chiron's situation, we're looking at a very different kind of a scenario. We're looking at a stepmother with issues of her own who has put together a story that makes absolutely no sense on any level whatsoever. And there's been no sight nor sound of Hormone of Chiron over the course of the past seven years. So I think the chances of him turning up alive somewhere are almost infinitesimal, simply because her intention was not to maintain this boy as a sex slave, but to take this boy out of her life altogether. Can I ask you about the priors the stepmother had. What does that mean?

What does that mean as it relates to Kyron's disappearance? Well, it just shows a history of violence, is what it shows, and a history of threatening violence. There's the murder for hire, certainly. There's the intention or the threat to stab a boyfriend. There's the theft of a firearm. I mean, we're talking about items of destruction is what we're talking about here. And we're talking about destruction and the potential for destruction.

So, you know, I'm much, much older than this woman. I've never in my life been involved in any of these types of situations, as most people have not. So when you find somebody that does have a history that goes back decades, that involves firearms, that involves threats with knives, that involves disappearances of little boys. You have to draw your own conclusions. Another issue happened that October following Kyron's disappearance. The husband, Kane Horman, files an objection to the stepmother visiting with daughter Kiara. He wants a mental health evaluation of Terry Moulton before allowing her to be with their young daughter. They have this daughter together. Do you know what became of that?

No, I don't. And I, you know, I know I've met Kane Hormanorman, and he's a quiet man, and he keeps to himself, and he doesn't share a lot of information. And, in fact, the last time I talked to Cain, it wasn't one of the greatest conversations I ever had, but he indicated he'd prefer to keep his personal affairs personal. After what all they've been through, it's just so hard for me to imagine what they've been through. But I know this. The search for Kyron Horman is far from over. A seven-year-old little boy, it is far from over. Mark Klass, I can't thank you enough, not only for today, but for every day that you inspire all of us to continue on. Mark, thank you.

Thank you, Nancy. You're the best. We now turn to a breaking story. Four children dead. A fifth in critical condition, still in the hospital. And the dad. That's five dead and another, a nine-year-old girl's life hanging in the balance. What happened? And this isn't the result of a car crash or some catastrophic accident. These four children were stabbed dead. The fifth little girl, as I said, just nine years old, the age of my twins, is in the hospital in critical condition. Why would anyone stab five children, five little children, and then appear in court smiling and actually giving a double thumbs up for the cameras. Yeah. That killer, Isabel Martinez, the mother

of the children. Yes. With me right now, renowned psychologist Karen Stark joining us out of New York. And also with me, my friend and colleague, Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator and professor at Jacksonville State University. To both of you, thank you for being with us. Joe Scott, let me start with you. You know, when I describe the murders in this case. It's shocking and gut wrenching. But then when I say the punchline, the mother, Isabel, is the killer. Somehow everybody goes, oh, oh, OK. I don't get that. Help me out, Joe Scott.

Yeah, it doesn't for me. It doesn't it doesn't lessen it for me. The police are describing this as an absolute bloodbath. That's all that has really been released at this point. The medical examiner hasn't given too much more detail, but I can tell you this, Nancy. Anytime you have an attack where you have individuals that are stabbed, this is a very personal crime. And you have four of these children that have literally been slaughtered in their little home in Loganville, Georgia, about 30 miles east of Atlanta, and also the father of these children. And as you mentioned, this one little nine-year-old girl

just clings to life at the Children's Hospital in Atlanta. Five counts of malice murder, five counts of murder, six counts of aggravated assault, and Isabel smiles in court, shaking her head no, and wagging her finger at the judge. When the judge, Judge Thorpe, informed her of her right to have a lawyer, she said she doesn't want a lawyer. And she will, her faith will always be in the people and her faith. Okay, you know what? She better get down on her knees and start praying now. Okay? Because Karen Stark, psychologist, if she has the sense to say no to

the judge and wag her finger, give a thumbs up and smile, there's no way she was insane. Because she is saying she understands what the judge is saying and charging her with, but she's saying, no, no, I didn't do that. And can speak coherently. Now, I know what's going to happen, Karen. People who study mothers accused of killing their children will claim that she had, I don't know, post-traumatic stress syndrome, baby blues, post-baby depression, as in the case

of Andrea Yates, who was found not guilty by reason of insanity for methodically drowning all five of her children in her suburban Houston home. Okay, remember that? And everybody gave her a free pass. Same thing is going to happen here, and I disagree, Karen Stark. You know, Nancy, it will really depend on whether she does, in fact, have mental illness or whether this was something that was a conscious decision on her part, as you said. And that's much rarer than somebody who has had some kind of a psychotic break or a postpartum depression, which is the other alternative.

And it's hard to imagine when you think of somebody like Susan Smith, her motive, she's a sociopath. She fits in that category where she had a reason. Okay, let's refresh everybody's recollection. Susan Smith, she and her husband were estranged. She got a new boyfriend. The boyfriend said he didn't want to marry anybody that already had children, a ready-made family. And so, bam, what happened?

There is no doubt at all that she buckled her children, I think it was three little boys, into the family vehicle and pushed it into the lake and then tried to blame an unknown African-American male. You know, I remember, Alan Duke, I was sitting in trial around the time this happened. I looked at my trial partner, I said, Herman, have you seen the composite in the Susan Smith case? He goes, mm-hmm. I'm like, it looks a lot like you, Herman, because the guy that she blamed, of course he didn't exist, was incredibly like my trial partner. It looked just like him.

I said, well, Herman, if you need me, I can give you an alibi, okay? Because she was there with me trying a case. So she blames the black guy, and she actually murdered her own children to get a younger boyfriend. Now, there is no way in H-E-double-L that she was mentally insane. She's just plain old mean, and she's where she needs to be, in jail, en route to hell, okay? Now, let's talk about Andrea Yates, or Andrea Yates. She drowns all five of her children, including a six-month-old little girl. Her lawyers claim she had severe postpartum psychosis at the time. The children were covered in bruises where they tried to live. They fought to live, even the baby.

I have a hard time giving these moms a free pass. Karen Stark. I can understand that, Nancy, but when you think about her case, it's very different than Susan Smith. This is more of an altruistic killing where she believes, and she literally does believe. What? Whoa, whoa. Did you just say an altruistic killing? Yes. In your psycho talk, what is an altruistic killing that's a killing i can't wait

to hear this where you believe that your children are better off dead we are you're in a psychotic let me ask you one thing you say they're so different you say andre yates's case is so different from susan smith's case that's correct Let me ask you just one question. This is a yes, no answer, Karen Stark. Okay, Nancy. In both cases, are all the little children dead? Yes. Okay, that's my jumping off point right now, right there. Let me get back to Isabel Martinez, who flashes a thumbs up and smiles in court. Joe Scott, did I get that wrong? Joseph Scott Morgan, a professor at Jacksonville State University, did I miss something? Is that correct? Yes, yes. Actually, she was folding her hands in prayer, very demonstrative in court,

extending her arms out, making the sign of the cross, all of these types of things. She even knelt at one point in time. The bailiff had to come over and direct her to stand up. And then she continues on with a smirk. And, you know, as a death investigator working in New Orleans and Atlanta over 20 years, we had an adage that we would apply. We would say, you know, the more insane you behave, the crazier and the more robust the killing, the higher the likelihood it is that you're going to get away with it. Because, you know, people, when they view these folks, they think, well, no one in their right mind could have done this. You go back to, again, I don't want to redirect here, but just for a moment, I'd like to revisit Andrew Yates. You think about her. I call that a purposed killing because, you know, you mentioned that the children had bruises all over them.

This is something that took time to do. It was an organized manner in which that was done, where she had to drown these children individually. That's a brutal thing. It's not like taking a weapon, the mechanism of death as we apply to it, and quickly shooting somebody. We can go to this case in particular. This took purpose with Martinez. She had to facilitate using a knife, I'm assuming, and this was a big assumption. She killed the adult male first and then methodically went through and butchered these four children and severely injured this other. So it's not like this was— Well, let me tell you something else, Joe Scott, that may factor into your analysis.

Police say the killings, the murders, occur between 2 a.m. and 5 a.m. So she waited till everybody was asleep before she stabbed them all dead. That changes my thinking a great deal. Yeah, mine too, Nancy. When I was learning criminal law in college in Louisiana, they had a term, and I know that you're very familiar with it, and it's called the heating and cooling of blood. This idea that you have sufficient amount of time to go from this kind of rage state into a clearer thought pattern where you can think what you're doing. This is an extended period of time. What's going to be essential to this in a forensic standpoint is to find out what kind of post-mortem changes took place with these bodies to find out what stages of post-mortem change. You know, was one child in full rigor mortis? Was the husband in full rigor mortis? Because that's

going to mean that they died earlier. how long did it take and also this is something else i'd be very curious to know was any one of these people were they tortured in the meantime i've heard cases where people have used edged weapons and they have protract over a protracted period of time they've taken an edged weapon and essentially terrorize the individual by making small cuts over the body where these people were strained. That's where I think that's the information that I want to know that we don't have yet. But I'm sure that that's going to come out eventually. Four children dead as young as a little one.

Axel age two. A nine year old girl's life hanging in the balance as we wait to hear the outcome in the case against, of all people, their mother. I want to thank you for being with us today. Of all days, our first program on the awesome Sirius XM. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.