Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - STEP-BRO CHARGED? CRUISE TEEN ANNA KEPNER DEAD AFTER SUSPECT SKIPS DAILY DRUG COCKTAIL

Episode Date: April 2, 2026

An arrest comes three months after Anna Kepner dies on a cruise with her family. The cheerleader's 16-year-old stepbrother arrested and charged in her death, ruled a homicide by mechanical asphyxiation. Anna Kepner, 18, had begun her senior year at Temple Christian School, and was reportedly excited about her future, painting her school parking spot to match her favorite movie, "Clueless. "   Anna plans included joining the military after high school.   Anna was found dead aboard the Carnival Horizon cruise ship during a recent western Caribbean voyage that ended in Miami. Her body stuffed under a bunk in the room she shared with her stepbrother.   He has now been charged with homicide.  Joining Nancy Grace today:  Greg Morse  - Criminal Defense Attorney of Morse Legal, author of “The Untested” found on Amazon; website: morselegal.com  Dr. Geri-Lynn Utter  - Clinical Psychologist specializing in psychological evaluations and risk assessments for individuals involved in the criminal justice system, Author of “Mainlining Philly: Survival, Hope and Resisting Drug Addition,” and “Aftershock: How Past Event Shake Up Your Life Today”, and Producer of “Utter Nonsense,” a documentary of exploration of addition and severe mental illness, available to stream on Apple TV and Prime Video, website: drgerilynnutter.com, Instagram & Facebook: DrGeriLynnUtter  Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan", Instagram @JoScottForensic Sydney Sumner  -  Investigative Reporter, ‘Crime Stories’   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The stepbrother charged, according to reports, after Cruz Girl, a beautiful teen cheerleader, Anna Kepner found dead. Her body stuffed under a twin bed, covered in life vests on a cruise with her grandparents. She's found dead in her own room after the suspect, the stepbrother skips his daily drug cocktail. I'm Nancy Grace.

This is crime stories. I want to thank you for being with us. A beautiful young teen cheerleader found dead on a cruise ship. Her body there for hours and hours before anyone even notices she's missing? Where were the parents, for Pete's sake? Still so many questions, but tonight we are learning that the stepbrother has been taken to federal court, and according to the dad, Anna Kepner's bio-dad, he was charged under federal law. Now, this is what Anna Kepner's biological mom says. I got some news today on my daughter's case.

They are going to charge her 16-year-old stepbrother for first-degree murder. And there's going to be some other charges brought, but I'm not sure what they are yet until they tell me I don't know. So that is one of the charges. And as soon as I know more, I will let you guys know. Thanks for her and support. Now, according to her, that is Anna Kutmer's biological mother. and according to Anna Kepner's biological father, who is the stepbrother's stepdad, is very confusing.

Charges have been lodged. Now, what are the charges? Straight out to Greg Moore's joining us, veteran criminal defense attorney, joining us out of the Palm Beach, Florida area. He is the author of The Untested on Amazon. and he founded Morse Legal at Morselegal.com. Greg Morris, I imagine that the confusion that is surrounding the charges generates from the fact that he is a juvenile and the media cannot get their midst on any of those charges or anything that went down in juvenile court, even federal.

Well, that's correct. When someone is charged as a juvenile in federal court or state court, it's confidential. The public doesn't have access to it through the court system with regard to this. And I would suggest that we don't even know if there's a grand jury indictment here yet. And I would also suggest if there are charges, it's probably not murder at this point because the federal government generally charges people 15 and over as adults for serious violent felonies. So, yes, this stuff is confidential when someone's a juvenile. Once they're charged as an adult, it does not stay confidential, and it can be available in the system. What could have happened is the U.S. Attorney's Office talked to family and indicated they might be filing a, quote, criminal complaint, which precedes an indictment, but the federal government still has to go to a grand jury. And even if you're an adult, those proceedings will be sealed until you're you make your initial appearance in court and then it gets opened up. But if he's charged with something like tampering with evidence or they're going to do that

or something that's not violent but related to the death of this young lady, then it would stay confidential throughout the case except for the lawyers involved. Put Greg Morris up, please. Greg Morris, you just said that the stepbrother, now almost 17, can be tried as an adult, could be charged with tampering with evidence? That's a yes, no, Morris. Did you just say that? Not as an adult for tampering with evidence.

He would still likely be charged as a juvenile for that. If he were charged with murder, there's a good chance he would be charged as an adult like the feds do and most states do when you're over 15 or in Florida over 13. To Joe Scott Morgan joining us, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University. He is the author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. He is the star of a hit podcast, Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. But for our purposes tonight, he is a death investigator who has investigated over, believe it or not, 10,000 death scenes of all sorts, be they accidental, natural causes, suicide, unexplained, or in this case, homicide. did you just hear Greg Morse describe a potential charge against his stepbrother as tampering with evidence? That's a yes, no.

Did you hear that? Yes, I do. Okay. Joe Scott, what would that evidence be? That evidence is Anna Kepner's dead body. I want to talk about her body as, quote, evidence. You got that right. And let me explain something because people take offense many times to that.

But you have to, as a death investigator, you have to think of the decedent as the little hub of the wheel with all the spokes coming off of it, all the other evidence. The body is the central focus of this case by the fact that she was taken, stuffed under this bed, covered with blankets, and then these, life jackets are put on top of her, you're trying to hide evidence at that point in time. That's why they're classifying it like this. We're not talking about scrubbing a scene or removing a weapon or anything like that. We're talking about taking this young girl's body after she has been murdered and stuffed under the bed and hidden from anyone to find her. And all kinds of things happen relative to that.

You can compromise evidence. You know, there's a delay in being able to get to the body. Bodies decompose, all these sorts of things. So that in and of itself constitutes tampering that. Yeah, it's just, you know, Morris, I know that when all of us lawyers start speaking, lawyer talk, tampering with evidence is a felony charge. But the evidence we're talking about here is Anna Ketmer's body. That's a little harsh tampering.

with evidence? Based on the... No, what I mean by that is based on the information so far is these people shared a room and then the leap is he must have killed this young girl, his step sister. There's a far stretch from just because you were in a room with someone on a cruise ship where the half-brother shared the room too. There's a lot of people on the cruise ship. Doesn't mean because he shared a room with her that he committed the murder of her at all.

There's no evidence that it actually was a murder at this point yet. Could it be a suicide? There's a host of unanswered questions with regard to how this girl died. And to just link it to the stepbrother is a stretch at this point. And he could have come in the room and saw his step sister freaked out. He's a 16-year-old teenager, didn't know what to do, had nothing to do with her death, and hid the body. Or he came in the room and the body was hidden.

under the bed, he noticed it and freaked out because, again, he's a teenager. So there's not enough, say, he committed the murder here. Also, you know, he could have made a statement and now the feds are trying to charge him with obstruction just so they can get leverage to keep him on the hook to continue to talk and try to find out more information. So there's a host of different things, but there's no evidence to say that he actually killed this girl or nothing that's come out yet that would point to that other than he happened to be in the room with her at some point. That's it. Happened to be in the room with her. Before I disprove everything you just said, why do you say

these words like they're poison, like they're dirt in your mouth? The feds did it just to get leveraged to get him on the hook so he would talk. It's what they did. I mean, the way you said that, it sounds like a nasty word. No, what's wrong with that? No, it's just the meddle of it. Nothing. That's the fed's choice. But, you know, but. That's the federal government's choice on how they want to investigate. It's the fed's job. Don't you want murder solved? Well, it's their choice.

Well, sure, people want murder solved, and they generally do get solved. And, you know, you're on a cruise ship. There's a lot of data points to tell this story, whether it be cameras, whether it be room keys, things that are record data and movement. So, you know, the story will be told. But to say the stepbrother did it simply because of you. shared a room with the girl is a stretch at this point. And, you know, the feds then probably don't have much to link them to the murder, so they want to, you know, see what they can come up with. So, you know, that's what they do. There's nothing wrong with that. That's their prerogative

to do it. They try to solve crimes. And it's one of the ways they do it. They hold on to someone they think has more information than they're letting on. And if they can put any charge against them, they will. Joe Scott, could you take Mr. Morse? to school and give him a lesson on why Anna Kepner, the teen girl cheerleader, the one scrubbed in sunshine, the one that goes to the Christian Academy, the one that still was wearing braces for Pete's sake, the one that was caught dancing at the celebration party with her grandparents, her last dance. There she is. Look at her. Just sweet, sweet, of sunshine out there with Granny kicking up her little feet. Yeah, she's dead. That's from our friend

Nick Capo 609 on TikTok. Could you explain to Morris why it is impossible that this little girl committed suicide based on the autopsy? Well, I can tell you what the board certified forensic pathologist said at the Dade County, Miami Dade County Medical Examiner's Office. They classified her death as asphyxiation and she sustained blunt force trauma, Nancy, and here's the thing. They talked about, they talked about relative to her that her body had sustained what is referred to as trauma related to an arm bar. Take a look. Okay.

So the leading edge of the arm right here, what they're saying is that the arm was placed over her throat and pressed down. Okay. There's a reason why cops can't use arm bars and restraint. You know what it is? It asphyxates people. It can also crush the larynx. So whatever has happened, we don't have a lot more detail. This transfer of energy from someone's body pressing down. Everybody at home, just think about having this area of your throat pressed down on and how hard it would be to breathe. You sustain that pressure over and over and over again. Sooner or later, you're going to run out of it. of air. Now they're saying blunt force trauma as well. Many times with these cases what you see with blunt force trauma, you're seeing somebody attempting to subdue somebody else, literally beating them into submission. Now, granted, I don't know who did it, but I know that the people at the ME's office, this is the conclusion they arrived at. And Nancy, if you liked that one, I got another one for you. Dig this. If there is this level of contact on the surface of her neck,

And you probably know where I'm going here. You're going to have transfer from here to there. I'm just hoping that they have swabbed her neck that collected everything in this space because you can have genetic connectivity here. And what I mean by that at a molecular level, we're talking molecular evidence because this is very, very intimate, Nancy. And people will say, well, he occupied the same space, you know, and maybe she just happened to wind up with a deposition of his DNA on the, on the anterior aspect of her throat. That's going to be

hard for any jury to swallow him. We are also learning, are we not, Joseph Scott Morgan, that there was no indication that there were drugs or alcohol in Antiquetner system. Yes. Yeah, you're right. How was that determined? Well, they would have drawn, we draw toxicology at every single autopsy. And we were to it as a standard panel, and you think about the standard drugs of abuse, and then there are scripts that are out there, you know, things like anti-anxiety, depression, anti-depression, medication, everything, even for hypertension. The other thing that we screen for, and this is what you're always thinking about relative to young people on cruise ships, we do a BA, a blood, alcohol level, and ethanol level, and it's coming back negative. You know, one of our big

concerns and we've talked about this, you and I have talked about this specifically with trips like this. You think about, well, was her drink spike? Did she have a huge amount of alcohol in her system that would have at least knocked her down to a position where she was completely vulnerable? They're not seeing that here, Nancy. They're not seeing this at all. So that leads us down a different path. This is not like something that she was poisoned, struck her throat, or she was inebriated, struck her throat, anything like that. That's not the indication. that we're getting. Greg Morris, if the reports are true that the stepbrother has been charged, and that is coming

from his stepfather, you've already told us about tampering with evidence, but why are you prone to believe it's not a murder or some sort of a homicide charge? Well, the reason why is nothing's come out that he's charged as an adult. I don't think the federal government would charge a murder for a 16-year-old and keep them in juvenile court. I've had these situations before, and generally the person that stays in juvenile court is getting a non-homicide charge because that person, they want information to link to the people that committed the homicide. So that's the only reason why I say that.

Okay, hold on. Hold on, Morse. I got a question for you based on something you just said, if in fact this is true. And the reason we're questioning it right now is because it's been kept under wraps. The reason I believe it's been kept under wraps is because he is a juvenile and those records are kept secret. It's really hard, even with a subpoena, for even a prosecutor to get juvenile records. I recall Greg Morris, I don't know if this has ever happened to you.

I was trying an adult for homicide. I found out through word of mouth, you know, a witness, one of my witnesses told me, oh yeah, he's had a shooting before a couple of years ago and he was still a juvenile. I'm like, what similar transaction? I want that. I tried and tried and tried to get it throughout the trial. When the case went to the jury. In other words, I had rested my case, the defense had rested at its case, the jury instructions had been given, the jury was deliberating. Guess what? Into court comes a rep from juvenile court, and he had three prior shooting incidents, which I could have used a trial if I had had them, but I tried, I fought tooth and nail, I went through

hell and high water to get those juvenile records with a subpoena, and I got him a day late and a dollar short. The jury never knew that he had a history of shooting people and shooting at people. They convicted him anyway, but that said, that's how hard it is to get a juvenile record. Now, here's my question.

You're saying you don't think it is a homicide charge. I'm not saying murder. Homicide could be murder. It could be voluntary manslaughter. It could be involuntary manslaughter. It could be any of those choices. You're saying you don't think that it's one of

because if it were, he would have been bound over to adult court. And that hasn't happened. So therefore, you're thinking it's not a homicide. I'm just trying to understand your thinking. Yeah, I don't think so at this stage that it is a homicide charge, because, again, he's still in juvenile court, it appears, or a juvenile designation in federal court. So right away, when someone's charge as an adult, it becomes public.

And also, they could be working up to go to a grand jury. The grand jury they don't go to every day. They can convene them on an emergency basis. They do go regularly to grand juries, and you have to get, a grand jury has to issue charges. So they could just have issued a criminal complaint, alerted, this is what's going to happen, and then they'll go to a grand jury later, although that is a little unusual with a relief. that is a little unusual with a juvenile if they're not being charged with a homicide-based offense. But again, this is still confidential.

Nothing's in the system public. I checked right before I came on your show today to see if there was anything in the federal system, and there still is not access, you know, open to the public. Anna Ketner's body was found. Anna was dead stuffed under a bump, under one of the beds in the room. Do we have proof that her stepbrother did this? To this day, we don't have any answers at this point. A lot has been made of the fact that the stepbrothers family seems more intent upon optics about what gets out to the media.

Is it a surprise that they want to keep alleged charges on the down low? Straight out to Sidney Sumner joining us, Crime Stories investigative reporter, Sydney, isn't it true that the stepbrother was viewed going to federal court? And this video here is from

Fox 35, Orlando. Yes, we watched him walk into court. He was flanked by a public defender in his father, Thomas Hudson. He's wearing that camouflage jacket and even a hat underneath that, though all media photos blur his face.

They did not want anyone seeing his face as he walked into this courtroom. So the teen stepbrother of Anna Kepner was seen leaving juvenile court, entering federal adult court in Miami just a few days ago. And this is amid an investigation into Anna's death on the Carnival cruise ship. Now, the documents are sealed, official charges not released. as of right now. Dr. Geraldine Utter is joining us. She is the clinical psychologist specializing in psychological evaluations and risk assessments for individuals. Author of Main Lining Philly Survival, Hope Resisting Drug Addiction. She's the author of Aftershock, How Past Events Shake Shake Up Your Life Today, producer of utter nonsense. Thank you for being with us, Dr. Sherylen

an question to you. Regarding claims that the family is more intent on protecting the reputation of the stepbrother, I find that loyalty highly displaced. I don't necessarily find it highly displaced at all, Nancy, because to Greg Morse's point, we don't actually know what happened in that room. And this sounds like a pretty, you know, from the outside and from what we know, this was a blended family, a stepbrother and a step, you know, sister that that for all intent and purposes, as far as we can see, got along with each other. So because we don't know what happened, you know, the family is trying to protect the child that they have left. They're, they can't, you know, I couldn't imagine the grief that they're going through having lost the daughter. And essentially what's happening now is they're in the process of losing a son. So as far as optics go, I think they're just trying to protect their family. And because we don't know what happened, I think it makes sense.

Another thing is, you know, he was reported, you know, behavioral observations. He was reported as being, you know, an emotional mess, extremely traumatized. He was hospitalized psychiatrically after leaving. Now that doesn't, that's not an implication of guilt of any sort. That we see when it's very traumatic event, somebody was exposed to a very traumatic event, him being hospitalized just indicative of how much that impacted him. him. So, you know, I kind of, I get where the family's coming from and I empathize with them. They've lost a daughter and now they're, they're in the process potentially of losing a son. If he doesn't get

in trouble or convicted legally, you know, this has been another trauma on the family and it's heartbreaking. Why do you keep saying we don't know what happened in that room? I'm curious. Because we don't know. I mean, we know that something happened, but we really don't factually know what happened in that room. He looks like, you know, somebody that was involved in something, but we don't know exactly what it was. So, you know, to the family's point, they probably know more than anyone does at this point because that's their son. And trying to protect him is an obvious knee-jerk reaction to somebody who loves him, especially his parents. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Joe Scott Morgan, could you please refresh Dr. Utter's recollection of the facts about what we do know who went into the room? The little brother, the little one, comes out of the room, leaving behind Anna Kepner alone with a stepbrother who had physically jumped on her before climbed on top of her and she fought him off. The little brother leaves, hears fighting and throwing furniture in the room. He hears the stepbrother screaming at Anna. He goes wandering around all on his own. He's a little boy on a cruise ship till late at night. I don't know what the parents were thinking. There's video of Anna going into. to the cabin and never coming out. The stepbrother was in the cabin with her.

And now she's dead, not by suicide. Just give me your factual analysis of what we know. As Dr. Gerald and utter says, we don't know what happened in that room. You know what? I don't need to count on my fingers to figure out two plus two is one, two, three, four. I can figure that out. Help me out, Joe Scott. Yeah, one plus one still equals two.

And so, yeah, we were not a fly on the wall inside of the room, but from an investigative perspective, Nancy, I have to deduce that I have one suspect that I'm looking at at this point in time, particularly if we've got secondary witnesses here that are reporting that they're hearing fighting. As a matter of fact, you've got an eyewitness that sees things occurring, makes them so uncomfortable that they exit from this room. Now, I guess that people say this is a young kid, but still, he's got fear kicking in. He doesn't want to be around this environment at this point in time.

You've already got a witnessed attack that has taken place. And then you hear the screaming, the throwing the furniture, and these sorts of things. When her body is found, when her body is found, I think the big question would be, does a level of violence, and there is violence here that is displayed on her mortal remains, Nancy, does it marry up with what we're hearing from inside of the room? I think that at the end of the day, the science is going to tell the tale here relative to what happened to her. We still don't know all of the details relative to her trauma,

but it is going to be extensive. The sounds, I got to tell you, Nancy, it sounds very savage to me. When you're talking about a combination of not just asphyxiation, but also, as I'd mentioned previously, I think that these blunt force injuries that she is to, or an attempt to subdue her. And one more little fact void here.

In order to facilitate an arm bar like this, you could do it from the rear where you have an individual that is behind the subject and you're pressing against the neck around their neck, okay, where you're actually pressing in toward them. However, in my opinion, I think that this is where she is face up on the floor. the assailant would be on top of her and literally pressing his forearm down onto her neck after having subdued her with punches, perhaps. Maybe kicks. She may have been stomped. I don't know.

We'll find out more, though. He was the only one seen coming and going. So I can't accuse him because I don't know what happened in that room. But the summation would be that he did something. Anna excuses herself from dinner early, not feeling well. Surveillance footage shows Anna walking back to and entering the room she shares with her brothers. After eating, the teen boys come back to the room before the youngest sibling ventures out again to explore, leaving Anna and their stepbrother alone. So to Dr. Gerald and Utter, you continue to state, we don't know what happened in that room.

Video and witnesses show Anna Kepner and the stepbrother entering the room. They're in there alone. The stepbrother comes out and she is found stuffed under a bed wrapped in a sheet, strangled, asphyxiated by a bar hold. So explain to me how you think they're the only two people in the room. How do you think she ended up under the bed, stuffed under the bed wrapped in a sheet, dead? I mean, I don't want to kind of go back and forth on all of the intricacies and, you know, you know, did he do it? Did he not do it? I mean, I think from a psychological standpoint to your earlier point, this family is in survival mode. And they're trying to protect the child that they have left. And they're just, you know, in a grieving process, they're trying to kind of process all this, figure out what's going on. Another thing is, you know, from an evaluative perspective, if the court hasn't done this already, I would hope that they would order a full psychological evaluation, whether it's done on the juvenile side or the adult side for the stepbrother, because we want to learn more about, you know, his current mental capacity, his, you know, competency, where he's at if he's even appropriate to participate in court proceeding. And I think all of that data, you know, will reveal things when we do evaluation.

we reveal things about somebody's mental stability and their overall mental health. Not to be confused. And I'm not trying to say, hey, because, you know, he may or may not have a severe mental illness or psychiatric issue that that, you know, kind of is an excuse for him to do what he's done. But I think, you know, really taking a look at him and evaluating him psychologically is really going to also help put the pieces of this case together. Anna Kepner's death on board a carnival cruise ship now ruled a homicide. Her autopsy, stating she was mechanically asphyxiated by another person or persons. The medical examiner finds two bruises on the side of Anna's neck.

She may have been held in a bar hold, meaning her attacker held an arm across her neck. Still no arrest. Now over 75 days later, nothing. The problem is you don't know who the people are that you're cruising with. So you could be cruising with murderers, child predators, and all sorts of criminals. When I say murder, I mean murder,

because there is no way she killed herself or had an accident and ended up stuffed under a bunk. I got some news today on my daughter's case. They are going to charge her 16-year-old stepmother for first-degree murder. And there's going to be some other charges brought, but I'm not sure what they are yet until they tell me I don't know.

So that is one of the charges. And as soon as I know more, I will let you guys know. Thanks for support. That is Anna Ketner's biological mother, Heather Wright. But then she posts this. So I guess I was wrong with my update the other day. Apparently they didn't charge. So I'm not sure what that's all about being proud of juvenile, not an adult,

which is just f*** up. Yeah, that's what he was doing when he did. Okay, that is Anna's bio-mom again, and I just want to hear exactly what she says one more time. Let's listen carefully. That, again, was Anna Kepner's mother, Heather Wright, posting, very, very upset. She can't quite seem to get to the bottom of what the charges are. Straight out to Sidney Sumner joining us, crime stories, investigative reporter. Sydney, I think the confusion stems from the fact.

fact that it's all under wraps. It's sealed because it's juvenile records. But according to the stepfather, which is Anna's, Anna Kepner's Bio Dad, and according to ABC and other outlets, charges have been filed against the stepbrother. What do we know? What do we really know other than we saw him going from juvenile court, let's see the video, from juvenile court to federal court where he would be charged if he's being charged as a Fed. This is for our friends at Fox 35, Orlando, by the way. That appears to be his public defender with him. So he's got his lawyer with him and he's going to federal court where the whole thing

started. This could be a matter of it's being handed over to state authorities to lodge charges. But what do we actually know, Sidney Sumner? Well, right. Like you said, we know that Chris Kepner has commented that this teen stepbrother has been charged. We do not know what with. Ketner did not go that far. He mentioned charges, but did not get into the specifics of what those charges are. And we know that his relationship with Heather Wright and his mom is fraught with tension. They aren't on good terms. So the information that she's getting is not only secondhand, but also coming from the father. So whatever Chris Kettner is deciding to tell Heather Wright is what she's going off of. So yes, keeping all of these records under seal

is leaving a lot to question right now. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. He heard him yelling at her, like in a harmful way. I've like shut the hell up and stuff like that. Like something was like banging around. and stuff and like the chairs were getting thrown around in the room. Anna's brother heard a heated argument between them in their cabin the night before Anna was found dead. He heard the stepbrother yelling at Anna, the sounds of furniture overturning and screams

from inside their room. That was from our friends at Inside Edition. Greg Morse joining me, veteran trial lawyers, a criminal defense attorney founded Morse legal. I'm concerned. I'll tell you what I'm concerned about right now is tampering with witnesses. No one. been charged with it, but the little brother, the juvenile, hey, how old was the little brother, Sydney, like 12 or 13 years old? 13. 13. The little brother, and he looks younger than that, is seen on video.

I mean, you might as well be in a casino in Vegas because every square inch of this cruise ship is covered with video. He's just wandering around the cruise ship all night by himself into the late hours. I think that's him, the little one. That said, just wandering around. Now, his testimony, Greg, is that he heard the stepbrother, the 16-year-old stepbrother, yelling at Anna in a, quote, harmful way yelling things like, shut the hell up. Something was banging around.

It sounded like chairs getting thrown around the room. then Anna ends up stuffed under the bed, wrapped in a sheet, and covered in life vests. A very infantile way, that's Joe Scott Morgan's term, of covering up her body. And I agree with him. This is my fear. The family is so concerned about protecting the teen stepbrother. Could they coerce the little boy or encourage him to change his testimony? Is that possible?

Well, that's always possible with any witness, right? People can be pressured all the time. You know, his testimony is your typical circumstantial evidence. That's very important to an investigation because people weren't in the room and witnessed the crime, if that's where it happened. But when statements change later on, you know, as lawyers, you go and you hold credibility in the closest in time to the event because our memories are better closer in time to the event. So it would just create an inconsistent statement now if they tried to pressure the younger

child to change his testimony or say he was thinking of a different room. So that would lose credibility on some level because of the original statement. And Nancy, I want to point something out that the stepbrother could have been in court for another reason. The federal government, oddly enough, is very good at telling you you're the target of an investigation. They normally do that in my white collar cases, well before a charge, well before anything. And what they tell you is, you're now a target of an investigation, you may want to seek counsel. When Sidney indicated he walked in with the public defender, he may have simply been in court because the federal government identified him as a target, and the court now has to

appoint counsel for him because he can't afford one. They can do that hearing and do that before charges are ever filed and charges may never be filed. But that could also be a reason why he was in court and left and we don't see anything in the system outside of the juvenile side. But there's always back to your original question, there's always, you know, witness tampering, people talking to witnesses. Did you, you know, change your testimony later on? But that would severely undercut the later change testimony because of the original statement. Child is dead, Anna Kepner is dead, either clothed or partially clothed, stuffed under a bed. The teen stepbrother is the main suspect.

We do not know what condition her body was found if she was wearing clothes or not. She just didn't feel safe around him. She's scared to tell anybody because she was scared that he would do something to her. Joshua 2 says Anna's close relationship with her stepbrother was one-sided. The 16-year-old is obsessed with Anna and made her uncle. uncomfortable with romantic advances. He once even caught him trying to climb into Anna's bed while the two were on FaceTime, Anna already asleep. He says that I tried to tell the parents that this was happening and they didn't want to

believe me. He's like infatuated, attracted to her like crazy. He's always wanted to date her. Chris doesn't realize it's his fault. This whole thing is his fault. If he would have taken the warnings that Anna's ex-boyfriend gave him, then she would still be here. So keep that in mind, Christopher. I blame you. From our friends at Inside Edition and Just Mom 1984 on TikTok, it's often said when you don't know a horse, look at his track record. Sydney Sumner crime stories. What is being said? What are we hearing? Well, we know very, we know very, little about this teen stepbrother. Family members say he and Anna were best friends. We do know they mentioned some kind of demons in this child's past. Not sure what those are,

what that could mean. Sydney Sumner, did you not just hear what Anna Ketmer's little boyfriend said, that he was on a FaceTime with her and saw the teen stepbrother climb on top of her with sexual intent, that she said she was afraid of the stepbrother because of unwanted sex advances, and that he, the boyfriend, tried to warn the family this was happening, but nobody wanted to hear it. We just heard that. And now the stepbrother is put alone in a cabin. He's in the cabin alone. The little brother leaves.

And she's dead. Well, right. So obviously there's this big disfing. between what the family thought these siblings' relationship was like and what her friends knew about what was going on. You're right. That teenage ex-boyfriend tried to warn Anna's parents that something was amiss in this relationship and that this stepbrother was dangerous to Anna, but apparently no one listened. You know, Jessica Morgan, when you put all of the evidence together. It's very, very disheartening. I imagine especially for you as a death investigator

in reading that autopsy report, this girl was killed. She did not die accidentally. She did not die of natural causes. She did not die of suicide. This is homicide. Very clear. Nobody's in jail. The 16-year-old stepbrother now almost 17 has walked free. He has been. He has been. been released after that federal court appearance. Why? Hard to know. I can tell you this. The pure definition of homicide, as we stated, you know, here like when I teach my students at Jack State is, and it's not judgmental. Okay. You're merely saying death at the hand of another. And in this particular case, this is not something where she slipped and fell on the end of the bed or on a coffee table or something like this. Is there a

possibility that could have happened? I guess so. in some other universe, perhaps. But this is very specific. So wait, are you saying there is a, it's possible. It's possible, not even probable, but possible. She slipped and died of asphyxiation in a bar hold. What? No.

What I'm saying is that in some other universe that that could be potential. I've never seen a case like this where you have direct pressure applied to the neck. And it has to be applied for a long period of time in order to impact the airflow, Nancy. This is something that would have required constant pressure across her neck for a protracted period of time until every ounce of life was out of her body. I think one of the big questions is, one of the big questions is that whoever perpetrated this, I would really like to know what was going on with them inside of their head relative to commit such an animalistic act on this young girl, Nancy. You want to know what's in whose head? Whoever pull this off because there is a perpetrator.

This is not an accidental death. Okay, but, hold on. Joe Scott, you are a premier death investigator. But let me remind you, Joe Scott, that the state never has to prove motive. It is not the state's duty to crawl into the head of a killer and think, wow, wonder what happened. Wonder what he was thinking.

Don't care what he was thinking. Okay, let me hang on. Now, hang on one second now. Let me tell you something here. My concern, in addition to this, is there somebody out there roaming free at this moment in time that has the capability to commit this kind of savage act on other people.

And I think that that is a genuine concern here from an investigative standpoint. I don't want them on the street. Whoever in the hell did this, I don't want them around other teenagers. I don't want them around. Well, you're preaching to the choir, Joe Scott. You're preaching to the choir. And I don't have to know what was crawling around in his head at the time he allegedly murdered Anna Kepner to know I don't want him out around other innocent victims.

If you know or think you know anything about this case, please dial 754703,000, 754703, 2000. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.