Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Stun Gun Subdues 2 Kansas Moms: BURIED IN ICE CHEST, COW PASTURE, BLOOD, DUCT TAPE

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A stun gun used to subdue two unarmed Kansas moms on their way to pick up children for a birthday party, stun guns. In the last hours, we also learned their cause of death. These two ladies, mothers, stuffed in an ice chest, buried out in a cow pasture with chunks of hay on top. Now we hear about bloody clothes, stun guns, and duct tape. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. What in the world does stun guns, bloody clothes, duct tape, ice chest, buried in a cow pasture have to do with these two beautiful moms picking up children on the way

Starting point is 00:01:06 to a kid's birthday party. How could that go so wrong? Listen. When Butler and Kelly are nowhere to be seen when they are due to arrive back in Hugoton, Pastor Heath Kelly and Pastor Tim Singer drive in the direction they believe the women went. South of Elkhart, Kansas, just three miles from the women's destination in Evo, Oklahoma, the men see law enforcement surrounding Butler's blue Kia on the side of the road. They learn that Texas County sheriffs found the car abandoned with no trace of Kelly or Butler. That evidence was a small amount of blood inside the vehicle. The vehicle was found on a dirt path 1,000 feet off Oklahoma State Highway 95, and near the car, police find multiple puddles of blood, leading investigators to conclude the

Starting point is 00:01:52 women were shot before they were abducted. Multiple puddles of blood. I've got an all-star panel, but straight out to Dr. Kendall Crowns, Chief medical examiner, Tarrant County. That's Fort Worth. Never a lack of business in the morgue there. Esteemed lecturer at Burnett School of Medicine at TCU, Dr. Kendall Crowns. I want you to just think back on a couple of cases such as, let me just go with Jennifer Dulos. That's a good example. Jennifer Dulos' body has never been found, but based on the copious amount of blood found in her garage, the ME knew right then she was dead. So here we come upon the blue vehicle left abandoned on a dirt road and authorities find copious amounts of blood. It can only mean one thing, Dr. Kendall Crowns.

Starting point is 00:02:42 How much blood do you have to lose for when you don't have a body, but you know they're dead? So usually when you're looking at large pools of blood, anything that starts to look like a gallon or over a pint, I'd say once you get near a gallon, you know that person is probably dead because you don't have that much circulating blood in your body. So anytime a large amount is seen, you start assuming that the individual has been murdered. We often will see it in car seats too, because the car seats will soak in a lot of blood with the foam. And again, once you see a lot over a gallon, they're dead. Just looking at these two moms and to just exacerbate what I believe a jury is going to hear. The car is found by a couple of preachers. Yes, that's right.

Starting point is 00:03:41 One of these ladies is a preacher's wife. OK, let me understand this. Joining me ladies is a preacher's wife. Okay. Let me understand this. Joining me, Annette Lawless, investigative reporter. Annette, thank you for being with us. So I've got two ladies. They don't have guns on them. They don't have knives on them.

Starting point is 00:03:59 They're on the way to pick up children to a children's birthday party. And one of them is a preacher's wife? Yeah. And they get stun gunned and murdered? How do we know they were stun gunned? Well, we didn't know immediately. I will say that this story, when it was initially shared with us by police, the initial message was just these two ladies are missing and we're looking for them. We didn't know that the vehicle was abandoned in this rural part of Oklahoma. We didn't know of the violent crime that had happened. We just knew they were missing

Starting point is 00:04:35 and it was something that really, I mean, it gripped us so hard. But then as we've learned through these different court documents, through the weeks that have passed, every little piece of information is just absolutely shocking. You know, I don't think people understand. Let me go to Chris McDonough. I mean, I would have no reason to understand if I hadn't been there when it happened. What a stun gun really does to you. Chris McDonough, joining me, director of Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective before that vice detective, now star of his own YouTube channel, The Interview Room. Chris McDonough, explain what a stun gun does. It's bad enough that they're dead, but to think they were tortured before they were killed on the way

Starting point is 00:05:26 to a kid's birthday party. What does a stun gun do to a person? You know, initially, Nancy, what it will do, it will incapacitate them with a large amount of electricity going through their body. So their muscles, you know, lock up. It also, individuals aren't able to think appropriately or properly for a brief time. And it gives a perpetrator the opportunity to make their move if, in fact, they're going to try to control them in any way, shape or form. Stun gun, we now know, causing electrical burns and pain on its victims, incapacitates them. They can't think. It hijacks the communication link between the body and the brain, making it difficult to think or move. Stand up. Sit up.

Starting point is 00:06:21 You're totally incapacitated. The working theory is these two ladies were stun gunned and then murdered. Listen. Documents reveal what investigators did to find the bodies of Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly after they go missing en route to a child's birthday party. Questioning relatives and friends, investigators isolate a burial site about eight miles from where Veronica Butler's car is found abandoned. After two long days of digging, Veronica and Jillian are found dead, buried 15 feet underground

Starting point is 00:06:50 inside a freezer chest. Cause of death not revealed. Oklahoma law enforcement says the women's murders were absolutely brutal. I just wonder how a jury is going to react when they find out these two moms, one of them a preacher's wife, and listen, I don't care if you are an escort. I don't care if you're a dope dealer. I don't care if you're Mother Teresa. What I care about is proving a case where a crime victim has been mistreated. Who the victim is doesn't matter. Lady Justice is wearing a blindfold for a reason. And yes, she has the scales of justice in one hand, but a sword in the other. So when I keep saying preacher's wife, preacher's wife, preacher's wife, I mean, Dr. Bethany Marshall,

Starting point is 00:07:40 renowned psychoanalyst joining us from Beverly Hills, author of Deal Breaker. You can see her now on Peacock. Dr. Bethany, I hope you agree with me. It doesn't matter that she's a preacher's wife or that they were on their way to a children's birthday party. The point I'm making with that is these aren't two dope dealers who have a turf battle. These aren't two women that have been engaged in felonious activity that somehow got caught up in a crossfire. I'm saying these are innocents and they are stun gunned and murdered and stuffed in ice chests and buried out in a cow pasture. You had to have a forklift, a big farm machinery to dig that hole. I mean, these two ladies, what did they ever do wrong?

Starting point is 00:08:38 Don't you see the dichotomy here? You know, Nancy, not only are there innocents, but between the two of them, they have six children dependent on them. One of them had four children, the other had two. So this has a ripple effect into their families. Nancy, I don't think those stun guns were just to subdue them. If they were to round them up like cattle, this has a feeling like somebody came, like the whole villagers came after them with pitchforks. did this had horrendous hatred for one if not both of these women and really how they had worked themselves into some kind of a frenzy because they could have you know subdued and killed them in sort of a soft kill kind of way but they chose the most difficult route, stopping them in their car, hitting them with stun guns, knifing them, putting them in a freezer. This was a gruesome scene. This was a

Starting point is 00:09:32 mob who really wanted to inflict as much pain as possible on these beautiful, innocent women. Joining me, renowned trial lawyer, defense attorney with the Tate Group, who is located in Savannah. Mark Tate, no offense, but can I ask you something, Mark Tate? Are you with me, Tate? Yeah. No offense, Mark Tate, but how do you do it? you stand up in front of a jury and argue innocence or ask a judge for a lenient sentence when you've got two mothers, stun gun, knife, stuffed in a freezer, an ice chest and buried in a cow pasture? Yeah, it's disgusting. The facts that they're going to hear about how these people

Starting point is 00:10:20 died are disgusting. And so when you're a trial lawyer and you agree to take someone's case, you have to understand that in this country, which has the greatest criminal justice system on earth, best one ever designed, that you're presumed innocent and the state has the burden of proof to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that those people who are accused actually did the crime of which they are accused. And so really a trial lawyer can only stand up and hold the state to that level of proof. And that's really all you can do. And you have to take. I didn't ask you to give me a tutorial on constitutional law.

Starting point is 00:10:59 Well, sometimes it seems like you might need it. I got that at NYU. I'm asking you, how do you do it? Oh, you didn't go to NYU for constitutional law. Take a big slug of whatever's in that cup. I didn't ask you about your stainless steel mug, but now I'm going to tell you, how do I defend this case? Only on procedural grounds at this point. And what I would say is that these women... Mine has a tea bag. Yours doesn't. Well, I've got to come on a show with Nancy Grace. Mine's coffee.

Starting point is 00:11:29 So I think that's how they do it. They dance around it. But you know what? Let's get back to the facts. Listen. Investigators execute a search warrant at an Oklahoma cow pasture. Jillian and Veronica's bodies are placed inside a freezer with personal items that do not belong to Butler or Kelly. Investigators find bloody clothes, the handle of a saw, as well as a taser. Some appear to have blood on them,

Starting point is 00:11:50 like a pair of Wrangler blue jeans with a black belt, a brown sweatshirt, a black hooded sweatshirt, and a second pair of Wrangler blue jeans. Other items found at the burial site include duct tape with possible blood, black taser flashlight, electrical cord and small black tape, two ratchet straps, black handle of a saw and possible blood also found on a black K-bar knife in sheath. You know what I love, Chris McDonough? I love duct tape. Do you feel the same way, Chris, when you find out there's duct tape at a murder scene. I just wonder if we are simpatico. You know, Nancy, this is right. We talk about Lady Justice and the sword. That sword is in place specifically for this type of case. I mean, this is an egregious,

Starting point is 00:12:40 horrible, horrific homicide. You have five defendants, and I've never had a five defendant homicide case. I've had three, but never five. So that means you had five people all in sync, thinking about how we're going to take out a mother and a preacher's wife, and then somehow cover their tracks by leaving all of this evidence on the scene, i.e. their clothing, the knives, all of this other stuff. But think about this. When somebody is murdered this brutally and stuffed into a freezer, a lot of the time, the suspects don't think it's gonna go exactly the way it's going to go. And it doesn't. So I'm wondering

Starting point is 00:13:27 if they were going to mutilate these bodies, you know, why bring a saw to a crime scene where you're going to bury somebody? Why bring a huge K-bar knife to a crime scene where you're going to bury them? So this could have gone as bad as it did, but I think they probably have a lot more on their minds and they just, they ran out of time or something happened. You know, Mark Tate, I'm going to speak on McDonough's behalf. I agree with everything you just said. Mark Tate, veteran defense attorney practicing with the Tate Law Group out of Savannah. Tate, I imagine that you hate duct tape as much as I love it for the very same reason. It's the perfect conduit for fingerprints.

Starting point is 00:14:11 Yeah, it's an evidence magnet. It's a DNA magnet. It's a hair follicle magnet. But I think that all of those things go to show that these are not professional killers. And I think that when you talk about trying to ameliorate sentences or make them less severe than what they should be, I mean, this is not the, you know, this is not Manson murders. These were not those kinds of people. Arguably, they're worse, but they're controlled by a similar kind of cult. They're not, quote, those kind of people?

Starting point is 00:14:40 No, it's not the same thing. It's a different kind of cult. Californians? Yeah, Californians. It's a different kind of cult, I think, that motivated all of these people to go after these people. Who cares if they're a bunch of anti-government gun nuts or the Charles Manson cult? Well, I think they're still butchered. Yeah, they're butchered. It's a horrible case, but you have to take those facts and get the best sentence or deal you can for your clients. And so if that includes showing that their ability to think rationally had been impaired by their cult memberships with this bizarre religious God's misfits thing, then a trial lawyer, a defense're right. The facts of these murders and the evidence against these people, including the young 16-year-old girl that basically provided the basis of the probable cause affidavit, the evidence is really difficult. And the facts of these murders is really hard. And when a jury hears that and they have five people in front of

Starting point is 00:15:39 them, they're going to want to convict every single one of them. And so a defense lawyer has to try to separate out these defendants. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. These two moms, one a preacher's wife, picking up children on the way to a kid's birthday party were stun gunned and then knifed dead. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, joining us, renowned psychoanalyst out of L.A. She's on Peacock now. Dr. Bethany, I'm just a trial lawyer.

Starting point is 00:16:18 You are the renowned psychoanalyst. I can't verbalize it. I'm not sure I have the vocab to do it justice, but I'm telling you, Bethany, that there is a different mindset. It takes a different kind of killer to knife someone, to stab them dead, much less stab them repeatedly, which we've seen over and over. In fact, think about it, Dr. Bethany, that's another thought for you and I to explore on our spare time. Very often in knifing cases, we see multiple stabs, and there's got to be a reason for that. But right now, I want to talk to you about the mindset of a stabber versus a shooter. There's a definite difference in the psyche. Definitely, Nancy.

Starting point is 00:17:09 These perpetrators were boiling over with rage. They did not want to stand on the side of the road and shoot the victims because they wanted to get up close and personal. They wanted to see the fear in these women's eyes. They wanted to inflict as much pain as possible. They wanted to do it practically with their bare hands. In fact, one of the perpetrators actually sliced his hand. He stabbed the victim so many times. You had two perps stabbing two innocent women who were members of their local congregation, one who was married to a pastor, six children between the two of them.

Starting point is 00:17:46 And I think the psychology of the knifing is that it is intimate, intimate rage. And the intimate rage is that this ragtag homicidal group had been scheming and plotting and just boiling over with hostility towards these two women. And these people all had homicidal impulses, all of their own, and they banded together. You know, you're seeing a glam shot right there of one of the killers. That's not one of the moms. That is one of the alleged killers. Of course, they're presumed innocent in our country until proven otherwise in court. But I've just got to tell you about how the evidence is stacking up. Listen.

Starting point is 00:18:29 Prosecutors now allege that Paul Grice stabbed Butler to death, slicing his hand in the attack, and Tad Cullum stabbed Kelly. Investigators have not revealed if the women were killed at the same time or one after the other, but only one knife was recovered from the burial site. The accessories for that K-bar knife found at Tad Cullum's home. A K-bar knife, we've heard about that in the Brian Koberger case. It is a fixed handle knife, not like a pocket knife that you can fold over. And very often when you use a K-bar or a knife in general, the killer's hand will actually slide down the knife over the cross and they will cut themselves. Listen.

Starting point is 00:19:11 According to court documents, the day Tiffany Adams' boyfriend, Tad Cullum, is arrested at his home for the murders of Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly, Paul Grice is present and FBI agents notice a bandage on his right pinky finger. Grice tells the agents he cut it while working on his truck. Days later, Caleb Roberts tells police he saw Grice March 30 and 31 with a bandage on his right hand. Grice tells Roberts he cut his hand while cutting fencing. Joining me, an all-star panel, but right now out to Annette Lawless joining us on the case in the very beginning, investigative reporter. So they cut their hands, Annette, during the stabbings? Yeah, it's really amazing to see all the evidence that's come forward. You know, and I've looked at everything from all the court documents and

Starting point is 00:20:01 to hear of how violent everything was and the fact that the people accused here had hurt themselves, it's just, it's really incredible. I will say, like I mentioned before, when we initially heard about everything in this community, we didn't know a whole lot. But as these documents have come out and revealed, I mean, it just gets grimmer and grimmer, Nancy. I'm a little worried about what we're going to discover once we hit trial. So it's just, it's really just so scary to think about what these women went through.

Starting point is 00:20:31 These women who are just going to go, and this was supposed to be a joyous moment for Veronica to go and grab her kids to celebrate a birthday. And ending like this was nothing that any of us had anticipated. So you've got one guy who claims he hurt his hand fencing, is wearing a big bandage. You know, Mark Tate, I've seen it a lot where knife defendants end up slicing themselves. And if you think that's far-fetched, just think about how many times you may have cut your own hand or finger just when you're slicing veggies or fruit in the kitchen. It happens all the time. Can you imagine in the middle of a double murder? I'm not surprised at all. There's allegations they cut themselves.

Starting point is 00:21:11 That's consistent. I think the prosecutor's going to harp on it. I think that from the standpoint of someone trying to defend someone's indicted with this kind of evidence, I think a knife wound that they suffer using that particular kind of knife, I believe that piece is maybe called the bolster. I'm not sure exactly, but, you know, it doesn't protect the hand from getting injured while you're stabbing someone. And I believe that the descriptions we received here today from your folks is that, you know, this is a crime of passion. When you stab somebody, it is not something that you have to be in a frenzy, I think were the words.

Starting point is 00:21:44 It's not something that's a quick or easy or intended to be a quick or easy death. It's intense. It's up close. It's personal. And so, yeah, those types of assailants do have those kinds of wounds that are involved. And again, that's why a defense lawyer who agrees to take on the case has to do things like show why those injuries might exist for some reason other than the use of a K-bar knife. It's difficult, but if we're going to undertake as a lawyer to defend these people who have a right to be defended, then sometimes you have to explore each piece of evidence and how it's going to come in and other potential arguments that can be made about why that evidence exists or could be interpreted differently. That's the system. We'd rather see one guilty person go free than one innocent locked

Starting point is 00:22:30 up. So, you know, it's the thing that we're straddled with or burdened with when we take an oath to the court and to our clients. We have to test the prosecutorial theories and have them really overcome the presumption of innocence. This is a very difficult case to defend. And I don't know if there are enough lawyers out there to take on five different victims, pardon me, five different assailants indicted with this. And again, it's the testimony of that young 16-year-old child who provided almost all of the investigatorial roots for the Oklahoma Bureau of Investigation to root all of this out. Five people arrested in the disappearance of Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly, including Butler's former mother-in-law. What is the connection?

Starting point is 00:23:24 A few minutes earlier, you heard high-profile defense attorney Mark Tate. Butler's former mother-in-law. What is the connection? A few minutes earlier, you heard high-profile defense attorney Mark Tate using as some sort of a contorted defense that these aren't professional killers. I doubt the dead people care. I doubt their families care whether they were professional killers or not. But the word idiot comes to mind. Listen. Inside the freezer, investigators recover a stun gun, a K-bar knife, tape, a black saw handle, and two bloody sets of men's clothing. Prosecutors now say one set of clothes has Paul Grice and Veronica Butler's DNA on them. The other set has traces of Tad Cullum and Jillian Kelly's DNA.

Starting point is 00:24:06 You heard a lot of rigmarole about a lot of pressure on a 16-year-old girl is the only evidence. There's DNA evidence. Let me understand Annette Lawless before I say another word. The bodies are folded up of these two young moms, stuffed into an ice chest, then buried in a cow pasture. And I believe chunks of cement were then put on top. I'm just enunciating each word, Annette, so it can really sink in what was done to these ladies. And then in the ice chest, here comes the query. There's bloody clothes and other items. But on those bloody clothes is the DNA of Paul Grice, Veronica Butler, Tad Cullum, and Jillian Kelly. They buried the bloody clothes with their DNA on it. The defendants, the four suspects,

Starting point is 00:25:10 their DNA is found with the dead bodies in the ice chest. It's remarkable. It really is to think about that and preserving essentially the evidence that will be used against them. I don't know what they were thinking and these people accused of what they were thinking of putting this stuff there. I don't know what they were thinking. And these people accused of what they were thinking of putting this stuff there. I don't know. It's just it's really remarkable. This whole thing, the God's misfits thing of this anti-government group.

Starting point is 00:25:35 And whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let me get the bus back in the middle of the road. I haven't even gotten to the fact they call themselves the misfits. I would say apropos, but you know, to you, Chris McDonough, you have investigated what over 300 homicides. And then of course, I'm not even going to bring up the time years you were in vice, but they don't have to be professional killers. They don't even have to be smart. And I thank God for that because now I've got their DNA. What were they thinking? What were they thinking?

Starting point is 00:26:09 Because you know what somebody like Mark Tate might spin out at trial? That they were framed. That what idiot would have put their own DNA in an ice chest with the two dead bodies and buried in a cow pasture? That they had to have been framed. They would never have done that. Oh, yes, they did, Chris McDonough. Yeah. And Nancy, you know, if I would have present a package like this to you for prosecution, you would absolutely shred these five defendants.

Starting point is 00:26:41 I mean, think about this. Every time they made a move, that was specific intent to commit homicide in conjunction with a conspiracy to do it with four other people. The fact that they're calling them God's misfits, I wish they wouldn't even use the Lord's name. They should call them the devil's assistants, because that's what this case is. And the knife, if we go back to the knife just for a minute and the duct tape, again, each one of those weapons like Dr. Bethany was talking about, the knife in of itself is a control mechanism. It's personal. It has a blood groove on it.

Starting point is 00:27:17 Every time that knife is utilized, there is a cast off. Who knows what those investigators have or seen even at that crime scene. And then the duct tape is just a coup de grace. If they're not dead, let's wrap them up and put them in a freezer. My question is, were they alive, still bleeding out in that freezer? And if so, that just even makes this case even much more horrendous. Let me understand back to Annette. I understand we keep hearing tidbits about how this was meticulously planned to kill these two moms. Is it true that this group actually posted lookouts to alert the killers if law enforcement was coming, if another car was coming along the road? What do you know about two of the women being posted as lookouts?

Starting point is 00:28:08 From my understanding, yes, they did have people who were looking out for things. They had plans to go in and commit this crime, to go and kill, at least the plan is to kill Veronica. But that plan didn't go through exactly how they intended, but those lookouts were there to make sure that they could go and use those stun guns so they could go and attack them and get what they wanted to get rid of them. All this? Why? What's the motive? Locked in a years-long custody battle with the children's father, the latest court-ordered arrangement allows Butler to have supervised visits with her young children, Cole and Kendall, who live with their paternal grandmother, Tiffany Adams.

Starting point is 00:28:48 Butler plans to host a birthday party for Kendall's sixth birthday and makes a 45-minute drive to her hometown of Eva, Oklahoma, to pick them up. Jillian Kelly rides with Butler, acting as a court-approved supervisor for the visit. You know, I have known my husband's mother since college. And in all those years, not one crossword with Mr. or Mrs. Lynch or anybody in their whole family. And this mother-in-law arranged meticulous planning, I might add, to murder her daughter-in-law, the mother of her grandchildren. Yeah, her. Listen to the degree of detail.

Starting point is 00:29:28 Cora and Cole Twombly are arrested in the same 1991 Chevrolet pickup truck they allegedly used on their mission that ended with Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly dead. Inside the truck, cops find a Taurus 380 handgun with a full magazine of hollow point ammunition and a live round in the chamber. Stun guns. Kitty litter used for liquid absorption of trace evidence. Biological DNA evidence. Digital photos. Spatial scans. And all other evidence of the crime of murder. Chris McDonough, this meticulous planning to kill these two moms.

Starting point is 00:29:59 Why kitty litter? Why was that on their to-do list? Kitty litter can be utilized to absorb any kind of liquid, specifically blood, probably in this situation, Nancy. Hold on. I need to shrink before I need a defense lawyer. Dr. Bethany Marshall, not only did they go and buy all these supplies, these people go and they assemble K-bar knives and ice chests. They even get farm machinery to dig a hole. They think and plan and scheme, gnashing their teeth and switching their tails. They even get kitty litter to absorb what they know will be a surplus of blood.

Starting point is 00:30:40 And catch this, Dr. Bethany Marshall. Granny actually goes to Walmart to buy burner phones. You think they don't have video of that? Think top mom buying push-up bras and beers while her daughter is quote missing. This one, that one right there goes to Walmart to buy burner phones so they can all communicate and then get rid of the phones. Dr. Bethany, kitty litter, burner phones, Walmart. You know, grandma had a very strange fixation and obsession with having total control over

Starting point is 00:31:13 her grandchildren. And you see in that one picture how little they are. And it makes me wonder, what is the future? What would have been the future course of these two children's lives had they been under this grandmother's care? She would have separated the future course of these two children's lives had they been under this mother's, this grandmother's care. She would have separated them from everybody, homeschooled them, not wanted them to have any outside influences. She did not want to share their love with anybody. But as an overlay, she had homicidal impulses towards her own, you know, daughter-in-law and the kitty litter to soak up the blood. That just tells me how much she hated this person and how much she influenced a whole entire group of people. She whipped up a mob mentality, Nancy. And because of that, I really don't think these two women died quickly. I'm very sorry to say I think they were likely chased

Starting point is 00:32:06 around with these taser guns, knifed in a vicious way. And I agree with the other commentator who said, who knows if they were even dead when they were buried in the freezer. I mean, this grandmother was going to stop at nothing to inflict as much pain, cruelty, and suffering. You know what's interesting? They do not want us or anyone else, but specifically us, to read these search warrants and these returns. Listen. Accused murderer Tiffany Adams' attorney files a motion to seal warrants to keep them from public scrutiny, even though law enforcement agencies generally must make the disposition of warrants available for public inspection. Going so far as to name Nancy Grace as a reason for keeping the search warrant sealed. The judge disagrees with the alleged murderer's lawyer and releases the documents for the public to see.

Starting point is 00:33:04 Dr. Kendall Crowns joining us. Chief Medical Examiner, Tarrant County, that's Fort Worth. Dr. Crowns, the specter that these women may have been alive, still alive and bleeding out, when they were stuffed in that ice chest, is highly disturbing. One, how would we know or would we know? And two, how long would it have taken them to run out of air and mercifully die in the ice chest? All right. So how would we know if they were still alive in the ice chest?

Starting point is 00:33:43 It would be dependent on if the areas of their body that were hit with the knife caused them to inhale blood. So you might see blood in the lungs, which is called hemoaspiration. If they aren't hit in the lungs, it would depend on what vessels are hit. If it's kind of superficial or minor vessels, it's going to take long blood vessels. It's going to take longer, blood vessels, it's going to take longer for you to bleed out from a smaller vessel. If it's a bigger vessel, you'll bleed out faster. So let's go with the assumption that they're alive when they're placed inside the cooler.

Starting point is 00:34:17 How long will they live? If it's a large cooler, which I assume it is, two women placed inside a large cooler, there isn't going to be a lot of extra room for air with two people in there, so they'll probably suffocate in under 10 to 15 minutes. A bone-chilling discovery. OSPI, the FBI, and the Texas County Sheriff's Department followed cell phone pings to find a horrific scene. A 10-foot deep hole, eight and a half miles from the mom's abandoned car, in a pasture on leased farmland and near a bridge. Whether the two moms were buried alive, not yet determined.

Starting point is 00:34:51 Were the moms buried alive? Again, that specter hanging over the entire, entire proceedings. But listen now. The four suspects are being kept in the Oklahoma-Texas County Jail, but that doesn't mean they will be having contact. The individuals are being separated in the 96-Texas County Jail, but that doesn't mean they will be having contact. The individuals are being separated in the 96-bed facility. Currently, the building houses 47 inmates, 36 men and 11 women in separate sections for each gender. According to the sheriff, Tad Cullum and Cole Twombly are intentionally held on opposite sides of the men's section, separated by four pods. The women, Adams and Cora Twombly, are also separated by pods, ensuring no contact. Only their attorneys and spiritual advisors are allowed visitation. Family and friends communicate through video calls. Three good quality meals are provided

Starting point is 00:35:36 daily, and the facility offers inmates the opportunity to purchase snacks, hygiene items, board games, and office supplies from an online commissary service. There is no exercise facility, but an indoor cement room with metal grates on the windows somewhat allows inmates to see outdoors. Did you hear that, Tate? They can have board games, snacks, video calls with their family and friends. Why? They're afforded some freedoms that people who are not under indictment are still allowed to have because they're not convicted yet. It sounds terrible to say we got to give them three meals a day. And if I were their lawyer, I would tell them not to spend a whole lot of time talking to others, whether they be spiritual counselors or family members, because every single thing they say, of course, is monitored. And anything they say that's even moderately,

Starting point is 00:36:29 arguably incriminatory is going to be used against them. But because they're not convicted, because they are not felons who have lost all of their freedoms at this point, they're still allowed to have certain levels of treatment. And by the way, Nancy, you know, even after you're a convict, we have the notion of cruel and unusual punishment. So even after we convict these people, we still can't, you know, treat them perhaps the way some would say they should be treated because of the way these victims were treated. I understand that sympathy. I don't want inhumane treatment. No, no, no.

Starting point is 00:36:59 I don't want that. But board games? Really? Guys, we found out that according to the newly released documents, that Adams and Colum own numerous firearms, a rifle amongst many, but also body armor and a quote, go bag, a go bag. Who does that? They've been watching way too many movies. Who are these people? They are members of something called God's Misfits who hate the government, specifically taxes. Listen. The OSBI determines the sect of God's Misfits includes Tiffany Adams, Tad Cullum, Paul Grice, Cora Twombly, Cole Twombly, Barrett Cook, and Lacey Cook, and is anti-government

Starting point is 00:37:46 with a religious affiliation hosting weekly meetings at Twombly's and Cook's residences. The leader of God's Misfits is in South Carolina, a man who goes by the name Squirrel. He says the murder suspects are not affiliated with him or his group, and he has no relationship with them. Without equivocation, Squirrel says, the God that I serve condemns such hate. Okay, I had a long talk with Squirrel and apparently this sect of God's misfits was an offshoot of the actual God's misfits. Don't care, don't care.

Starting point is 00:38:21 What I do care about is this. Listen to this description from our friends at KOCO News 5 of one of these young moms. Her kids were her world. Her kids were her life. Everything she did was for her kids. She'd get in a pool with them. She'd blow bubbles with them. Whatever it was, she was there with them. Annette Lawless with me, editor and investigative reporter. Annette, what's next for this gang? In court, a judge had decided that the next steps for these suspects, they will not be looked at individually. They're going to group four of them together and then one in another part of the preliminary hearing. So in the coming weeks, we're going to be looking forward to the next stages of

Starting point is 00:39:04 stuff this next month and I think in December as well. And hopefully everything will come into trial come next year. I'm very interested to see what more bits of evidence we're going to find that are unearthed in the next phases, because I'm telling you, every time they go to court, we just keep hearing stuff as journalists in this community. And it is jaw dropping, Nancy, to hear of everything of how gruesome this attack was. And these people, I mean, to think of everything that was contrived here and the things that they believe that the suspects thought they could get away with. It's just it's amazing to even I mean, it's just I can't believe it. And I think a lot of people here in the community can't either. If you know or think you know evidence about this case, you may think it's small. You may think it's non-consequential. But remember, the two victims dead in a brutal and horrific manner.

Starting point is 00:39:56 Please dial toll free 800-522-8017. Repeat 800-522-8017. Repeat, 800-522-8017. We wait as justice unfolds. Thank you to our guests for being with us. And tonight, we remember the families of these two slain moms. Goodbye, friend.

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Stun Gun Subdues 2 Kansas Moms: BURIED IN ICE CHEST, COW PASTURE, BLOOD, DUCT TAPE

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