Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Subway sandwich pervy pitchman Jared Fogle claims he was tricked into guilty plea on child porn; Hart family careens over cliff to their death…was it intentional?

Episode Date: April 16, 2018

Former Subway pitchman Jared Fogle wants out of prison early, claiming federal prosecutors tricked him into pleading guilty to child pornography charges. Nancy Graces re-examines Fogle's case with psychologist Dr. Tiffany Sanders, crime scene investigator Sheryl McCollum, Heavy.com reporter Jennifer Dzikowski, and Crime Stories co-host Alan Duke. Investigators still don't know why a SUV filled with members of a Washington State family plunged off a California cliff on March 26, or how many of the Hart family's 6 adopted children were inside. Grace sorts through the evidence with psycho analyst Dr. Bethany Marshall, lawyer Anne Bremner, Juvenile Judge Ashley Willcott, and reporter Ninette Sosa. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. I don't know about you, but I got hooked on Subway sandwiches because of Jared Fogle. Because he would do all the ads where he weighed like almost 300 pounds. And then he did a self-imposed diet of just eating Subway sandwiches, the healthy ones, and lost down to his goal weight. And so many people across the country thought, wow, if he can do that eating Subway, so can I. Yeah, well, he was convicted, convicted for freaky, freaky attempts at having sex with children, distribution of child pornography, and actually having sex with minors. And in the last hours, we learned Jared Fogle,

former subway pitch guy extraordinaire, is actually seeking release from federal prison. I mean, he's busted dead in the water. Now, hold this image. Every Christmas, I take the twins ice skating in New York City, okay, at Rockefeller Center. And then where do we go? The plaza in the hopes of seeing Eloise, right? Remember Eloise, who lives at the top of the plaza with her nanny, and we go have Eloise tea. All right. How did I know Jared Fogle is up, slung up in the plaza having sex with a minor while I'm downstairs with Lucy and John David having Eloise tea?

Believe you me, I want justice. It'll be over my cold dead body that Jared Fogle gets released early from a federal prison. If you don't believe me, listen to Fogle himself. You must go crazy with your travels because you get to go into all the different schools and you know all the different things like that. I want you to I mean I'm sure you have a lot of stories. I want you to tell me some of them so that, I don't know, I just, I like to. Yeah, I appreciate some of the middle school. I love the middle school.

And the girls are starting to get, you know. Yeah. Because you know how much I love big, you know, I love huge. Mm-hmm. Well, I know. What's that? Well, you know, I love huge. Mm-hmm, well, I know. What's that? Well, you know, kids are maturing faster nowadays.

I know, which I love. That's why I think it's wonderful with you is that you're able to get in early. You know what I mean? You could totally, you could totally win them over, which is what I love. Mm-hmm, you like that? I do love that.

Will you tell me how to do that? You know, just talk to them, just get to know them, just everything, and just, you know, do a little touchy-feely things with them, you know, make them feel good. And it's a little more touchy-feely, a little more touchy-feely, a little more touchy-feely. It's that kind of stuff. Yeah? Mm-hmm. Okay. I think that would be amazing.

Totally amazing. What age seems to be the easiest? You know, I don't know. Like, you know, early middle school is probably one of the best. Yeah? You know, they don't have their cover going. Mm-hmm. I mean, I can see you like a young, you know, 6th, 7th grader, you know, and they're just... And they're okay, they feel right with that?

What's that? You need to find out how, if they'd be all right with that? Oh, I know they'd definitely be all right with that. They're very much into exploring and, you know, it's just a matter of getting them on your side, you know? And that's what I'm just curious. I don't know how to do that. Just be friendly to them?

Yeah, just be friendly to them. Just do what you normally would do, maybe, because that's what you're so friendly anyway. Mm-hmm. You know, and then we just sort of go from there. We take it, and I think it's all case by case. You know, there's no right way, wrong way, whatever, you know? I actually feel nauseous hearing that.

Cheryl McCollum, Cold Case Research Institute Director. I have tried a lot of child molestation cases, but typically the defendant did not take the stand because they knew I would chew them a new tail hole on cross-examination. So it's very rare. You actually get to hear the perv speaking. That was tapes played on my friend Dr. Phil's show. They were tapes obtained by Rochelle Herman Walron, a woman who befriended Jared Fogle and then took these secret tapes. So, Cheryl, we are hearing him in his unfiltered state talking about how he likes little middle school girls. That's like fourth grade girls. Nancy, the fear is when this person is released,

their sexual attraction is the same. And that is what people in power do not understand. If you are attracted to sixth grade girls, that does not go away. If you are attracted to five-year-old boys, that does not go away any more than whatever your sexual attraction is. If you think Halle Berry is sexy, she's going to be sexy whether you go to counseling or not to you. This is a large problem where people think, oh, send them to counseling, send them to prison, and then they'll learn their lesson. No.

If I see a commercial with Matthew McConaughey, that man is fine as hell, Nancy. There ain't no amount of counseling that counselors going to change my mind about that. Believe it. So if you've got somebody that is telling you straight up, I like middle school girls, keep his ass in prison. Eloquently spoken, Cheryl. Eloquently spoken with me from heavy.com is investigative reporter, Jennifer Zekowski.

Jennifer, you're awesome. And so is your website. What is this business about Jared Fogle getting out of prison? He just got put in prison for Pete's sake. Yes, he did. And you know,

part of me thinks that he just loved being in the spotlight. And, you know, according to Reuters, he is trying to be released from the federal prison he's staying at in Colorado. He's claiming his guilty plea in the child pornography case was based on an illegal conspiracy charge and should be thrown out. So he's actually claiming that he wouldn't have pleaded guilty except for the improper charge and said being imprisoned is violating his due process under the United States Constitution. And, you know, the reason he's saying it was unlawful is because it included a charge of conspiracy, which he's saying is not covered by the text of a federal law concerning sexual misconduct involving minors. And there's really

two parts to this, because TMZ is reporting that he's suing the judge and the prosecutors in the child pornography case for $57 million. And they're saying rather than trying to get out of prison, his focus is on a financial legal gain over the justice system department employees who put him away. Whoa. So let me understand this. Did I hear this correctly to Cheryl McCollum? Did Jennifer Zagowski from Heavy.com just say that Jared Fogle is actually suing the prosecutors? Is that right? For $57 million, not $60, not $55, $57 million. That's an odd number, just like his odd sexual behavior. Hang on, it's not just the prosecutors.

Jared Fogle is also naming U.S. Attorney General Jeff Sessions in his complaint, saying Sessions failed to correct a clear error. And for good measure, Fogle's blaming President Trump, too. You know, it never fails. Just to amaze me, this guy preying on young children, and he's busted having them brought to his hotel room at the plaza in New York City, and the Lord only knows where else, so he could have sex with children. And now he's suing.

You heard me right. Dr. Chloe Carmichael, New York psychologist, founder of anxietytools.com. Dr. Chloe, I agree with Cheryl McCollum, but my knowledge of this is anecdotal. I'm not a doctor. I'm not a shrink. I'm a JD, not an MD. But every person I've ever seen that child molested or statutory raped that was an adult. I mean, there are the few exceptions where a 17-year-old boy will be with a 15-year-old girl and it's construed as child rape. I'm talking about adults with children. I've never seen an instance where that was, quote, cured.

That's a crime. That's pedophilia. That is a crime. I agree with Cheryl. You can't go to jail and get quote cured. Well, Nancy, I can certainly see why you would feel that way. And I'm not only inclined to agree to agree with you personally, but that is actually what the research says as well. So pedophiles actually very rarely learn to stop being attracted.

You know, just as was being said, if you know you are attracted to Matthew McConaughey, you know, no counseling is going to change that. But what pedophiles do learn how to do is how to at least control their urges, not act upon their urges. But in order for them to learn that, they have to be willing to learn. Many pedophiles hate themselves and hate their urges and are just at least grateful if they can learn how to not act on them. Jared doesn't seem to feel that there's anything wrong with his urges. So in addition to being a pedophile, it's also quite possible that he may be a psychopath. So, you know, he doesn't seem to have any concern at all for how this is affecting, you know, anybody else. And the idea that he thinks he should be released from prison and that he can, you know, sue the prosecutors, this type of entitlement that he has combined with his pedophilia, I think it does make him a very poor

candidate for somebody that would ever, you know, really be rehabilitated. He doesn't want to be rehabilitated. This is like an alcoholic. They have to want to stop drinking. He doesn't want to stop. He wants to continue. Back to Jennifer Tsikowski, reporter with Heavy.com. Jennifer, right now, Jared Fogle, former subway pitchman, is trying to be released from a Colorado federal prison. He became famous in 2000 after he credited subway for a huge weight loss. Now, his guilty plea was based partially on an illegal conspiracy charge. That dealt with child pornography. But there were so many other counts.

There was the actual transferring children across state lines to have sex with them in hotels. He pled guilty to having sex with children. I mean, how could that be thrown out, Jennifer? That has nothing to do with a conspiracy, does it? No, one would not think so. And no, it doesn't make any sense. Like you said, he admitted to these charges. He pleaded guilty.

So I'm not exactly sure. I mean, just like the last person said, he doesn't want to control his urges. He has this sense of entitlement, and I'm not exactly sure how he would think that he could get out of prison at this point. Well, another thing, Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute, this is not his first try to get out of jail. Just this year, he tried to get out claiming the judge in his case was biased because she had teen girls. Okay, I'm getting that from the Indy Star. Well, actually, the judge had one daughter and she's grown. All in all, since he was sentenced, he has filed dozens and dozens of motions to either get his sentence reduced or just thrown out.

So this guy is not giving up. He claims that his plea, his guilty plea, let me remind you, it's a guilty plea, it's not a jury trial. He swore under oath he was guilty. Okay? So it's not like he was wrongly convicted he stood up and swore he was guilty he's now claiming his plea was unconstitutional cheryl excellent point and nancy not only did he plead guilty the only thing he's arguing now is technicality he still ain't saying he didn't do it he hasn't yet said y'all got the wrong guy i wasn't there it wasn't me i didn't do it. He hasn't yet said, y'all got the wrong guy. I wasn't there. It wasn't me.

I wouldn't do it. He said, yeah, I did it. Let me out so I can freaking do it again. That's all this is about. He wants out. There's a ton of people that can watch perverted movies, whether it's bestiality or threesomes or whatever, but they don't act on it. This man has already acted on it. He has passed that threshold of return.

He is a dangerous predator, period. He pled guilty, the Subway Sandwich Pitch Man, to federal charges of conspiracy to distribute and receive child porn, traveling across state lines to have sex contact with a minor. He agreed to pay $100,000 to each of 14 unnamed children. Those are the ones that we know of. And he's going to do at least 15 years behind bars. He has been trying every which way to get out of jail, and he's got the money to hire lawyers to do it. That's the problem.

Dr. Chloe Carmichael, New York psychologist, founder of anxietytools.com, why can't he just serve his time and try to improve himself or rehab himself behind bars? All he's doing behind bars is trying to say the system tricked him. He pled guilty. It wasn't a trial. There are no errors at trial. He stood up in court under oath and pled guilty to these charges.

So what is his mindset, Dr. Chloe? Well, of course, Nancy, it's difficult to say what his mindset is, but I can certainly speculate that he may have seen in our society that unfortunately, you know, many times perpetrators will play the victim card and he has probably seen that card played successfully many times. As you pointed out, it seems clear that his goal is simply to get out of prison and to get right back to what he was doing before. So I imagine he's willing to avail himself of any strategy that he thinks might work, including becoming vindictive towards the system. You know what? As I always used to say, be careful what you ask, my dear, for you will surely get it. Now, Oscar Wilde said it first, but it applies here.

You know what? Go on and back out of that guilty plea, Fogle. Let's get all of your child sex victims up on the stand. Let's play all your perverted tapes in front of a jury. You got 15 years on a plea? Let's see what you get that way, Fogle. We received dispatch 911 calls of a vehicle over the side. Three other children are missing but are presumed dead.

They portray this happy little family. Their daughter's telling us, please, please, please, begging us not to make her go back and that they were abusing her. None of that lines up with the people that we all knew. It's really hard to imagine. CPS got an anonymous call. Deputies say CPS had already sent a caseworker to the house twice before to check on the family without getting anyone to come to the door. And now to California, where an entire family seemingly plunges off a cliff, killing the whole family, including the parents, but now an alarming series of complaints, including child mistreatment. Horrible, horrible claims about how these children were

treated in life. Ann Bremner joining us, high-profile lawyer out of the Seattle jurisdiction. Ann Bremner, let's start at the beginning. What can you tell us about the crash? The car looked like it fully accelerated off a cliff, really, near Santa Barbara. And the same-sex couple, Sarah and Jennifer Hart, were in the front, and then there were three kids in the back. The parents were restrained, but the kids were not. And so they only found the three kids deceased and their parents near the vehicle, thrown from the vehicle, et cetera.

But then they found one more child in subsequent days. Two more are missing. There's been some speculation that one of the children may have been deceased before the crash, but that's pure speculation. Oh, my stars. Wait a minute. I know the authorities have found the body of the parents, Sarah and Jennifer Hart, and three of their adopted children, Marcus, Jeremiah, and Abigail. Now, there were three other children, Hannah, Sierra, and Devontae.

The three of them were missing, but Saturday, a body was pulled out of the surf, and that was most likely one of the children. Now, the Mendocino County Sheriff's Office say a couple was vacationing along the coast and saw a body that was pulled out of the water by a third bystander. Take a listen to the Mendocino County Sheriff Greg Van Patton. On March 26th at approximately 1538 hours we received dispatch 911 calls of a vehicle over the side in a remote section of Highway 1 south of San Juan Creek. It was an obvious fatality situation as there were three victims outside of the vehicle. Further examination of the scene revealed two adult victims inside of the vehicle and three juvenile victims outside

of the vehicle. The next day through follow-up investigation we learned that there were possibly three additional outstanding juveniles that had not been located that were either with the vehicle or possibly with family members. Devontae, we believe, was in the vehicle. However, we have not recovered his body and two others. You know, I'm looking at photos right now of the two parents, Sarah and Jennifer Hart, and their adopted children. I don't know how one family is allowed to adopt so many children. It's hard enough for me to take care of two of them, but this many children. It's hard enough for me to take care of two of them, but this many children. And then we find out there were 911 calls because the children were being mistreated before

the car plunges over the cliff. Take a listen to this 911 call. Yeah, there's some kids that I feel is being highly abused. And I can't wait until Monday in in woodland washington what's the address okay i'm going to give you the address of my daughter's house because it's right next door okay and what's going on there well they have four black children with that part doesn't matter and they're they're new here texas but the other night, a little girl jumped out of the second-story window on the roof and then down onto the ground and ran to my daughter, and this is like two in the morning, begging them to help her, to help her. When did that happen? About three, four nights ago.

Okay. And my son-in-law doesn't want to get involved, but the more I sit on it, I just can't live with it. Somebody's got to go there and check on these kids. Okay, and so how old was the little kid that did that, that ran to your daughter's house? About 12 years old, 13. And when they came looking for her, she was begging my daughter not to let them know she was there, and then eventually my son-in-law let him know and then

she had all four of the kids come back later and to say everything was okay and they're all standing at attention like they were just scared to death and i think there's something very serious going on there and they're here from texas the kids might even be kidnapped. Okay. And so did the girl ever say why she was scared? No. She was crying and it was 2 in the morning and my daughter said the biggest problem was she's half awake. She couldn't believe what was going on.

Okay. She's half awake. She couldn't believe what was going on. And basically, my son-in-law is like most people. They don't want to get involved. And so he's keeping my daughter out of it. But since she's told me about it, I just can't live with it. I'm very concerned for these kids. I just can't let this go any longer. Those kids, I think, are in very serious danger. The 911 caller reporting that the Hart family's child jumped out of the house window begging for help,

but in the photos, the family's all smiles, and they look like a modern family with a diverse family two moms six adopted children that's a family of eight their arms and the photos are all wrapped around each other and free hugs love is beautiful holding signs like that but the 911 call belies all of that. Neighbors describing very disturbing encounters with the children crying for help and asking for food. It ends up in a report to Child Protective Services just before the family's SUV plunges off a cliff. Listen to this 911 call. Dispatch, can I help you? CPS investigator that needs a well-trial check. Who are we checking on? Listen to this 911 call. this morning and no one, I can get no response. Different cars have been moving in and out, I noticed. So I feel like someone's there. And what was the reason we were checking on them? Concerns that the children aren't being fed. So Ashley Wilcott, you're the expert in child

welfare. What happened? This is why I love your show because you help the public understand, number one, it doesn't matter what people look like, what they pretend to be, how they appear to be, they can be abusive to their children. And not only did these children, one of them jump out the window and go to the neighbor, they did it repeatedly. So it was not one time, it was multiple times. So clearly, there are lots of red flags in this case. System fail. You know, they had these adopted children for six months before they were allowed to adopt them. There are multiple reports of bruises on different children. Children going to neighbors were hungry. This is what they're

doing to us. All kinds of red flags in this case, regardless of their appearance and the front that they put on to act like they were good parents. I mean, Ashley Wolcott, you're familiar with my children's school. And in the mornings when I take them personally to make and watch them walk in the door, because I still remember Kyron Horman, I go through and if it's chilly outside and I see children in short pants and no leggings, I'm like, what? What are their parents thinking? You know, and I'm inside, you know, judging. These children are climbing out of their windows begging neighbors for food.

And it wasn't just once. This guy that describes that encounter lived next door to the Hart's and it was at 2 a.m. when the child crawls out a window of the house to beg for food. He says it was one of at least four times where the children appear to have told adults about their troubles in the home. Nothing happened. So why didn't authorities go investigate? Take a listen to Clark County Sheriff Sergeant Brent Waddell. is a distance out. It's by a third party. You know, something that they have no first-hand knowledge of. I'm not sure we've failed the children. Again,

we handle a lot of these type of calls. I don't feel we've failed them. Why? Why didn't anything happen, Ashley? I'm not blaming you, Ashley. Don't get me wrong. You have the familiarity with a child welfare system. Well, what happened? Why were they allowed to adopt six children to start with? Well, that I don't know. That begs the question. And we can talk again about system fail because we see those, regrettably, where the system completely fails to

protect children. But put that aside. Here's what people need to realize. You know, the neighbor states very clearly the first time this happened in the middle of the night, 2 a.m., like you point out, this neighbor sent the child back home. Why? Because of the appearance of the parents, because they're putting on a good front. Well, they look like they're okay, and I think it's okay. I'm just going to send the child back. Here's what I'm here to say as an expert, as a judge. Do not, do not under any circumstances when a child makes those kinds of disclosures, send them back.

Nobody wants to get involved in people's lives and they think, oh, it's fine, we'll send the child back to the parent. No, the state agency should have been called at that moment. And it was multiple times later before anybody reported what was going on. And listen to this, Dr. Bethany Marshall. Then I'll go to Ann Brenner and Vincent Hill. And listen to this Dr. Bethany Marshall then I'll go to Ann Bremmer and Vincent Hill. I want to hear your take. They portray this happy little family and yet you know the night before their daughter's telling us please please please begging us not to make her go back and that they're abusing her. And then Devante coming over here and telling us that, you know, he's being starved to death and they're mean. This is what the neighbor says. The other night, a little girl jumped out of the second story window onto the roof, then down

to the ground, ran to my daughter. This is two in the morning begging them to help her. That the girl cried and begged the daughter not to let her parents know she was there. Then one of the parents came over. And then all four of the children came back later to say everything's okay. And all the children, when they came back to the neighbor, were standing at attention like they were scared. They all stood at attention to report, no, everything's fine. And then they marched home. I mean, Dr. Bethany, that's terrible. This story completely breaks my heart. And, you know, underneath this veneer of civility and sophistication that the parents had, I would think that the underlying psychopathology or disturbance of the parents is to gather more and more

children like objects so that they can feel important and nurturing, but deep down harboring hatred and resentment toward the children for having needs. This is a central problem with child abuse that I see again and again, is that the adult resents the needs of the child. To the point, I heard in my office once a parent putting, padlocking the refrigerator because the parent felt the child was greedy. And preoccupations, parents, patients in my practice, who become preoccupied with the child being bad because the child wants so much. And, you know, to piggyback on what Ashley was saying, you know, child abuse is notoriously underreported because witnesses of child abuse,

they doubt themselves. They feel that they're interfering. They feel that the child is being traumatic. They are afraid that they're going to tear a family apart when nothing bad is going on. And the public needs to know they don't need to verify child abuse. They need to report suspicion of child abuse. There's a big difference. The public is not required to verify it. They're just required to report what they see.

So the public needs to be emboldened in these kinds of situations. Listen to this. This nearly breaks my heart. The parents, Jennifer and Sarah Hart, six-year-old little girl, told a, this is when they were in Minnesota, they moved over and over and over again, which is another sign something's very wrong. The little six-year-old tells a Minnesota public school teacher that she had, quote, owies on her tummy and back after her mother hit her with her fist, leaving bruises. The teacher rightly alerts social services and police who launch a criminal investigation. Six months later, one of the two moms, Sarah Hart, pleads guilty to assault and gets probation.

A week later, all six of their adopted children are pulled out of public school and go to home school setting. They never returned to public school. The family moves, then moves again. Neighbors lodge new claims of mistreating the children. Then just two weeks ago, as child protection workers now in Washington are trying to contact the Harts, their SUV dives off the side of the road and kills the parents and at least three children, three others still missing. Police now saying this was no accident. Nanette Sosa joining us, investigative reporter. What do we know now, Nanette? What led them to think this is no accident? One of the

reasons is because there are no skid marks at the location. In other words, no attempt to break as the vehicle plunges off. Also, the odometer was measured at about 90 miles per hour. Now, whether it was traveling that fast is still being investigated, but that's where it stuck. So those are two of the reasons. Take a listen to California Highway Patrol CHIPS' Greg Bart. Preliminary investigation indicates to us that this incident may have been an intentional act and not the result of a traffic collision. The vehicle was approximately 70 feet away from the cliff's edge in the pullout and the last brake application shows that it was about at that location in the pullout and then after

that it was acceleration all the way up into the point where it impacted the ocean floor. We have every indication to believe that all six children were in there. However, only three bodies have been recovered. This will take several weeks for us to have a clear understanding as to possibly, if there isn't a definitive answer, what occurred. You know, I want to go back. Vincent Hill, very often I would learn so much from, quote, school investigators. A lot of schools have somebody in the school. Teachers, principals, and other school personnel are under the law supposed to report if they think there is child mistreatment.

For instance, how do they show up to school? Do they wear the same clothes for two or three days? Are they always hungry? Do they eat like they're starved and that's all they're going to get to eat? Do they look like they've had a bath? Do they look like their hair is combed and that their teeth are brushed or their hands and face clean? Do they come in and you can see they haven't touched their schoolwork for a couple of days? I mean, what's happening in the home?

Vincent Hill, the school is the second line of defense of children. The home should be the first line of defense. What can we, as ordinary citizens, neighbors, when you're around children, what do you look for, Vincent Hill? What do investigators in school settings look for? Nancy, I think you touched on all of that. You know, dirty clothes. Do they have a foul odor to them? Does it look like they haven't bathed?

Do they look detached socially from everyone else? These are all signs of abuse that happens in the home. And unfortunately, there were so many fails for these children in this case, so many on so many levels. You know, one of the reasons I'm not a big advocate of homeschooling is because the kids cannot show those signs to someone else. So I prefer a child to be in a public school or maybe a chartered private school, but at least they're around other individuals that can pick up these signs that these kids I'm

sure were showing and a lot of people just ignored. Like, I go back to the neighbor who you know the parents came over oh it looks fine you know maybe the neighbor thought oh well the kid's being dramatic or well the parents here they look normal but to that i say jeffrey dahmer looked normal but he was chopping people and eating them so and now we hear uh one of the little boy's aunt, the little boy, Devontae Hart. She says it's just devastating. And this is an aunt of Devontae's who fought for custody. Celestine gets a late night call from a lawyer who once helped her fight to get custody of the children, three of them, Dante, Devante, Jeremiah, and Sierra, but she didn't get custody. And now she learns the two moms that adopted them to make a total

of six adopted children have dived off the side of a cliff, Jeremiah's body found among the wreckage at the bottom of a 100-foot cliff. Oh, Devontae and Sierra are still missing. They're presumed dead. Questioning to Jennifer Hart, one of the two moms intentionally speed out of a pullout overlooking Pacific Highway along Highway 1 and kill all her children. Ann Bremner, you're there. What is the word locally? Well, it's like I said before to you, Nancy, that this is all over the Seattle Times, you know, all the time. And Sunday there was a very long article about this. They were in Woodland, Washington, which is a small town, southern Washington, near Oregon, the Oregon border.

And people here are just outraged about it, of course, as everybody is. But they were looked at in Oregon by the authorities, but those records are sealed or confidential, so we don't know what those complaints were. But we know what the complaints were in Washington State, and that they up and left immediately once child welfare folks came and knocked on their door and left a card. You know, and off they went to California, and this horrible tragedy, you know, ensued. Sounds like an intentional crime. One thing I wanted to point out on child protective services is, you know,

I think we really have to have an awareness, like we've just been talking about, about what to look for in kids. I agree on the homeschooling issue. Remember, Nancy, you helped us so much in the Susan Cox Powell case here in Washington State, and Josh Powell, who killed his wife, Susan, had his kids for visitation, and there was CPS involved purportedly throughout that case. And Josh Powell ended up setting the house on fire, blowing it up, and killing the kids with a hatchet. Two little boys. Susan's two little boys. And I look at that case, and I think we need to say that we have zero tolerance for child abuse. And the best interest of the children should be the paramount concern, not reunification of families,

not making sure that everything that looks okay, seems okay, can be held as okay. But the whole idea here, with these neighbors, it was pretty rural, but it wasn't just kids coming over, or at least one or two, saying, we're hungry, we need food, but also saying, can you put food in a box at the fence at our house like every day so we can have food? I mean, that's so alarming, you know, to come at 1.30 or 2 in the morning and knocking at their door because of this. And these were two sets, three from one mother or family and three from another.

And we just had an article today in the Seattle Times about another child who had been in their care for a period of time at 15. And the way that relationship quote unquote ended was she was sent to a third party and they said, your mothers aren't going to keep you anymore because they're adopting more children. There were no goodbyes. There was no explanation. And she went off to another home oh my stars how that's emotionally devastating and you know i'm just thinking i'm listening to ann brimner uh also reporting on it ashy wilcott founder of childcrimewatch.com i mean when my children come home and i see they haven't eaten their snacks i packed for them well number one John David doesn't need to eat a snack but I give him three he's a big horse and I tell him that I'd like you big horse eat okay or don't eat whatever the case may be but I'm like why didn't you eat

your snacks people they're yummy let's eat come on I mean and these children are asking for the neighbors to put food in a box in the fence. And the whole time, Ashley, you've got a blood relative, Celestine, a paternal aunt, no criminal record, had raised a daughter of your own, had a steady job as a hospital clerk in Houston. The children would come stay with her, okay, often. And they would not let her have the children. So instead, they give them to these two moms that are going to have now six children. I mean, Devante and his sisters have yet to be found. The wreckage discovered by a passerby. We know that another body was fished out of the water. Did these two moms intentionally go Thelma and Louise and drive their whole family over the cliff? Ashley Wilcott, ChildCrimeWatch.com, weigh in.

Here's what bothers me, Nancy, and I see this time and time again, regrettably, is children that are in the system of foster care are allowed to be adopted by families, and it's as if the agency decides these people are going to adopt, and then they are hands off. They do not double check. They do not check on the welfare of the children. They do not advocate for the best interest of the children. They say, oh, good, adoptive home, check, next,

and that's what happened in this case. And that's why these children are failed. Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst out of LA, driving your children over a cliff? Nancy, it is so hard to comprehend, but I think I have a pretty good idea of what might have led to that. So what you see in these really pathological households where there's so much child abuse, there's one of two scenarios. One is that you have one parent who loves the children and the other parent who has simmering resentment and hatred and envy and jealousy towards the children and wants to kill the children in order to get back at the other parent.

And if that were the case, that would probably be the person who is driving the car, using the children like pawns, killing them to get back at her partner. The other would be that you have a child-abusing parent who becomes quite paranoid and resentful towards the children and then draws the other parent into a paranoid stance towards the children. And you have two moms who are very dysregulated in their hatred towards each other, like a lot of fighting, a lot of screaming, a lot of yelling. And they're so unable to regulate their negative affects or emotions that they actually have to fly over a cliff, pick a fight, step on the gas, do something to just let the steam off of all those dysregulated emotions

without having a big picture conception that they're actually putting an end to the entire family. Do you think people sometimes adopt children to fix their relationship? Oh, absolutely. To fix their relationship or if they hate each other, they'd rather direct the hatred towards the children than towards each other. They will adopt children to punish the children because they don't want to express anger towards each other in the marital dyad. Children are made use of in all kinds of ways. They're at the mercy of the adults in their lives. Yeah, they have such a clear record of eroticism. We're talking about Sarah and Jennifer Hart, who drive off a cliff with their children, all their children.

There's six adopted children in all, killing, as of right now, we don't even know how many were in the car. They began fostering children all the way back in the mid-2000s, according to friends that knew them, in Minnesota, where the two women lived before they moved to the Pacific Northwest. The Minnesota Department of Human Services confirmed they had a foster care license for two years starting in 2005. Then they were just in their mid-20s, right out of college, and their friends remember them talking about fostering children, and they seemed like they wanted to help, but something went horribly sideways because it went from trying to help to claims they deprive their children of food, spanking them so hard that they get convicted for it. Reporting by neighbors, the family lived an isolated life outside of rallies, political rallies and music festivals they would attend. What went wrong?

You know, to unravel this to investigative reporter Nanette Sosa, it seems to me that, of course, the two moms are responsible. But also, how did the system lose track of them? How did they go from Minnesota to Texas to Pacific Northwest? And everywhere there are claims by neighbors to police, to schools, and yet they keep getting away with it. Nanette? One of the situations with this, and it looks like mixed messages, is the fact that states do not have to report to other states about alleged abuse, etc.

So what happened in Washington, Oregon wouldn't know. What happened in Minnesota, Oregon wouldn't know. What happened in Minnesota, Washington wouldn't know. So that's a little bit of a disconnect right there when states in their CPS systems and so forth just don't know. Also, this family, Jennifer and Sarah, they received about $270,000 over 10 years for these adopted children who they acquired in 2006, the first set, and then in 2009, the second set. So that's pretty much $5,000 a year per child that they were receiving. Is that enough really to raise children on? I know it sounds like a lot, maybe $270,000, but when it comes down to finances and at the end of the day maybe there was a financial issue going on that might be something that needs to be

reviewed for this family could they afford to feed six mouths could they put it together I understand that they did buy the house in Washington but or finances maybe a little bit behind this when you have Hannah who jumped out of the second story window and runs to the neighbor's house and then the neighbors say that this is a teenager who looks like she's seven years old and is missing her front teeth how is that not a sign of abuse that's going on how is that missed an autopsy now scheduled for another body found in Northern California where the SUV of this couple plunges off the cliff,

killing at least five members of the family. It's going to be weeks to determine whether it's the body of one of the three children still missing. Lengthy DNA analysis may be needed to identify it. That's how badly it's decomposed. Nancy, we've learned that preliminary toxicology tests show that Jennifer Hart was drunk when their SUV plunged off a California cliff and that her wife, Sarah, and the children had a drug in their system that can cause drowsiness. California Highway Patrol says Jennifer's alcohol

level was 0.10 when 0.08 or more is considered legally drunk. Also, Nancy, Sarah, and two of the children had high amounts of a Benadryl-like substance in their systems, which can cause sleepiness. And a toxicology report is still pending on the third child. Oh, my stars, Nanette Sosa. You know what? It's such a tangled web. But there is a long path, a long history of mistreatment of these children. And the state keeps giving them more and more adopted children and the claims of mistreatment get worse and worse. This is what we know. We know that some of the children died and that horrific death plunge by the two mommies. We know there was a long history of abuse on all of these children, one after the next after the next adopted. We know that the two moms were making a lot of money

off these children from the state. It's all ended in a horrific death of little children. Is anybody going to do anything about the welfare system? How many calls? How many neighbors? How many teachers? How many relatives? How many police? How many 911 calls?

Does it take for children to be saved? You tell me. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.