Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Suicide or murder: Louisiana deputy found shot dead in master bedroom

Episode Date: November 14, 2018

A Louisiana woman called 911 to report her husband -- who was a Jefferson Parish sheriff’s sergeant -- had shot himself in the head. Sgt. Troy Smith later died in a hospital and the wife, 35-year-old Shantel Wagner, has been charged with murder. Nancy Grace looks at the evidence of suicide versus murder with forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober, Atlanta juvenile & lawyer Ashley Willcott, and syndicated radio host Dave Mack. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Do you know another parent or expecting parent? Are you wondering what can I give them as a gift? Don't give them another onesie. Don't give them a plastic toy or God forbid a toy gun that's just going to end up in the garage. Give them something that matters and what matters the most is protecting their child.

What do you love most in the world? Your children. What will you do to protect them? Anything. I sat down with the smartest people I know in the world on matters of child safety, finding missing children, fighting back against predators. And what I learned is so important, powerful, and information so critical. I want you to have it. I want them to have it. Go to crimestopshere.com for a five-part series with action information that you can use to change your life and protect your child. Payment starting $6.99.

Give that as a gift, not another onesie. Find out how to protect your child when you're out at the mall or the store or the grocery, in the parking lot, at home. Find out about protection regarding babysitters and daycare, even online. I'd rather have that any day of the week than a plastic toy or, God forbid, a toy gun.

Join Justice Nation. Go to crimestopshere.com. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I think the evidence clearly shows that he committed suicide, clearly shows that he was depressed, clearly shows that he was drinking alcohol, clearly shows that he was taking medication. And there's posting that they know about where he was posting these suicidal dark post. You are hearing from renowned defense attorney Leo Palazzo claiming that Sergeant Troy Smith committed suicide. Why would a young sergeant kill himself? What's the truth behind the shooting death of Sergeant Troy Smith? I'm not convinced. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with

us. Let's take a listen to what we can learn from a hysterical 911 call. This is her. 12 Committee, Elaine and Wagaman. Yes, I just need somebody now. Okay. Oh, please. Hold on, ma'am. I'm sending them out now. No. No. Ma'am. Ma'am. Ma'am?

Yes, sir? Okay, ma'am, I need you to go up to him. I need you to tell me if he's still breathing. He's breathing, but he's barely breathing. Sorry, he's bleeding everywhere. Okay, is he conscious? Is he able to say anything? No, sir.

He shot himself in the head. Okay. All right, ma'am. I'm going to stand in line with you for a moment. I'm going to stand in line with you for a bit, ma'am. I need you to tell me what your name is. My name is Chantel. Chantel? Yes, and he's a police officer, sir. He's a police officer? Yes, his name is Troy Smith. He's a JP. You are hearing part of a 911 call that we have obtained by Troy's wife, Chantel Wagner, who comes in to find her husband shot dead in the head. Joining me, talk show host Dave Mack, Atlanta juvenile judge, lawyer, and founder of ChildCrimeWatch.com, Ashley Wilcott. Veteran forensic psychiatrist, Dr. Daniel Bober.

And also joining me, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, Joseph Scott Morgan. To Dave Mack, talk show host. Dave, I want to get some of the facts surrounding his shooting death. Cops go in. They find one of their own, Sergeant Troy Smith, dead from a gunshot wound. Tell me where they were. Was it at home? What room of the home?

What time of the day? And is that the wife calling in? All right. Well, first of all, that is the wife calling in. Second of all, they found his body on the bed in the master bedroom where the phone call was made to 911. The one you just heard, that was made at about 1125 at night, the night of Father's Day, by the way. Okay. Hold on. Hold on. Let me take this in. So Father's Day night, almost midnight. Why? You know, I've told a million juries, nothing good happens after midnight. If you're out family home in the master bedroom on the bed, and he's shot in the head. To Ashley Wilcott, juvenile judge and trial lawyer.

Ashley, he's found on Father's Day night. Have you noticed that so often suicides and homicides occur on holidays and weekends? I think it's because people are off and they're not at work and familiarity breeds contempt. The more you're around somebody that irritates you, the more likely tempers are to flare. I think it's that. And I think often on holidays and times off, people are drinking, are celebrating and doing things that make them in a different state of mind sometimes. No excuse, but it happens. So Sergeant Troy Smith, allegedly Dave Mack talk show host, was posting, quote, dark suicidal messages.

What were some of the messages he was posting? I didn't see any, Nancy. The ones that that guy was talking about, I didn't see any, Nancy. The ones that that guy was talking about, I didn't see any of those postings. All I've heard from them when I was looking over everything in this, on the articles that are available from the police right now and in the press, I didn't see anything that he actually said. You know, Dave Mack, we have investigated this very thoroughly. And contrary to what the lawyer was stating, I haven't been able to find any such postings. As a matter of fact, all of his friends, Troy Smith, were in disbelief. And a longtime

friend, a former classmate there at St. Augustine High School in New Orleans, said none of this sat right with his friends. And they were all skeptics regarding a suicide because he had everything before him. He had everything to live for. To Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, Dr. Bober, on the other hand, I recall a very, very dear friend of mine committed suicide and he had everything to live for he was a health nut as a matter of fact dr bober his name is bob seafeld was bob seafeld and i forgot exactly how oh he was in the cable industry and i met him when i was working at court tv in manhattan he was such a health nut that instead of eating the snacks on a plane, he would bring a bag of organic, of course, lettuce that he had personally washed every leaf. And he would

sit there like we would eat peanuts or popcorn and eat his lettuce on the plane. And no, he was not a nut. He was not a nut. In fact, he was brilliant. And when I learned he had walked out into the San Francisco Bay and never came back it still shocks me and and makes me grieve I still can't take it in he would take his own life so just because all of his friends say oh Sergeant Troy Smith would never commit suicide we don't know what anybody would do, Dr. Bober. Nancy, I can't tell you how many times I've had patients sit in front of me and tell me that they were feeling fine, and then the next day they go off and jump off the top of a parking garage. So the bottom line is with people, you only see what they want to show you.

And if they're hell-bent on keeping things from you, there are so many people in the world that are suffering in quiet desperation and they just, we don't know what, what they're really struggling with or what they're going through. And they're only going to show you as much as they want to show you. So it's not always a trail of breadcrumbs like social media postings or, you know, things they tell their spouse. Sometimes there's no warning at all and it just happens because they didn't want anyone to know. You know, while I've got Ashley Wilcott, a juvenile judge and Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, Dr. Daniel Bober, what does a suicide do to the children? I know I'm sprinkling a lot of personal antidotes into this, but I remember two girls that were absolutely precious and smart and wonderful.

Mother, when I was growing up in rural Georgia, committed suicide. And it was one of those things like where I came from, people go, what happened? And somebody would say, oh, she committed suicide. You didn't even say it out loud. And actually the whole community knew her very well because there was a really great call-in show in the mornings on WMAZ. And the host's slogan was K-O-K-O, keep on keeping on. And she would call in all the time and tell funny stories and ask questions and so forth. So a lot of people felt that they knew her and she committed suicide. I think one of the girls actually found her body.

I can't recall that part, but we were all, I had never heard of that growing up that somebody would kill themselves. Dr. Bober, what does that do to the children when someone commits suicide? Well, of course, you know, there's the immediate shock of it. And then, you know, the children are affected for the rest of their life. All those, not just all the special occasions like, you know, high school graduations and weddings that, you know, the parent won't be there for, but just the daily, everyday grind of life, you know, with a parent who's absent, the child is never the same. I mean, very often there are other caregivers that can sort of try to help fill in the gap. But the same. I mean, very often there are other caregivers that can sort of try to help fill in the gap. But, you know, Nancy, you said something very interesting

about whispering that it was suicide. And I can't tell you how many funerals I've been to where there's been suicides and the people of the family will not mention that it was a suicide, because I think in our society, there's still such a social stigma against mental illness and suicide that people feel ashamed of it. And I think that's part of the reason that people are afraid to seek help is because of the fear of that stigma and being judged. Ashley Wolcott, in addition to what Dr. Bober said, which of course is absolutely correct, what about the feeling of guilt? Like, mommy or daddy did that because of me. It's my fault because I didn't pick up my clothes because I talked bad because whatever. That's what I see on the bench, Nancy, is when kids experience the suicide of a caretaker or a parent, they always come back to what did I do wrong? What could I have done differently? It's my fault. I'm so sorry. That's absolutely what they think in their minds.

Well, apparently even the wife refused to accept that it was a suicide. Listen to what she was saying at the funeral. This is Fox 8's Natasha Robin. Smith and Wagner married in 2016 and both had children from previous marriages. Neighbors described them as happy, but the two were facing financial troubles. Smith and Wagner filed Chapter 13 bankruptcy on June 1st, listing more than $291,000 in debt. A neighbor told Fox 8 she attended the funeral. She says at the funeral, Wagner approached her and told her that Sgt. Troy Smith didn't commit suicide. She said it was an accident. Well, he did, from my understanding, he did shoot himself. And she doesn't know if

it was actually supposed to be suicide or accident. Because when he pulled the gun up, the gun went off. 12 Communion Lane, my husband just shot himself in the head. 12 Communion Lane. Communion Lane and Wagaman. He's a police officer, sir. 12 Communion Lane and Wagaman. Yes, I just need somebody now.

Okay. Please. Hold on, ma'am. I'm sending them out now. No! No! Ma'am? Ma'am?

Yes, sir? Okay, ma'am, I need you to go up to him. I need you to tell me if he's still breathing. He's breathing, but he's barely breathing. Sorry, he's bleeding everywhere. Okay, is he conscious? Is he able to say anything? No, sir.

He shot himself in the head. Okay. All right, ma'am. I'm going to stay on the line with you for a moment. I'm going to stay on the line with you for a bit, ma'am. I need you to tell me what your name is. My name is Chantel. Chantel? Yes, and he's a police officer, sir.

He's a police officer? Yes, his name is Troy Smith. He's a JP. Okay, that's disturbing me in a way. With me is Dave Mack, syndicated talk show host, Ashley Wilcott, judge, lawyer, founder, childcrimewatch.com, Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, and Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Ashley, did you hear the hysterical crying? Now, I'm okay with that. I'm okay with hysterics because you know, when I have been faced with life and death, I feel hysterical on the inside. I get really quiet, no tears, no

yelling, no nothing like that. But I feel hysterical on the inside when faced with life or death. She let it out. But what's bothering me is when he said, what's your name? She goes, Chantel. He's a police officer. Suddenly everything is cleared up. The crying, the hysterics, it reminds me a tiny bit. Do you remember the Black Widow in Florida, the former escort that, what was her name?

Alan Duke and Troye Slaughton. Oh, yeah, DiPolito. Oh, my goodness. DiPolito. How could I forget that name? And she tried to kill her husband with poison, allegedly, and chai tea. And then that didn't work. and so she ordered a hitman of course the hitman was an undercover agent so they set up this elaborate sting and when they quote told her about her husband's quotey death quotey she like breaks down bends over double screaming the whole time

she had set up the hit okay now i'm not saying this woman is guilty or innocent, but she has the hysterics and then turns on a dime and is totally calm. What's that, Ashley? You know, Nancy, I don't know. And I have to say this. We know there are lots of people out there who commit crimes, who act hysterical at the time of only to find that they actually committed the crime. The other piece of that that's weird to me is not only did she all of a sudden get calm,

do you know, she kind of dropped the fact he was law enforcement down the road. Like to me, that's one of the first things you say is say, oh my God, he's an officer because I hate to say it, but they're going to respond quickly and differently, I think potentially, but oh my God, he's a police officer and we have, you know, he shot himself in the head and I need an ambulance. They're just things she didn't say that make me a little uncomfortable with her demeanor on that call. Ashley Wilcott, did you just say OMG? Did I say what? OMG. No. Oh, I did. I apologize. Ashley, please do not drag him slash her into this drama, okay? Dr. Daniel Bober, Ashley Wilcott's profanity aside.

Dr. Bober, what is that? Is that normal? Because before she may have been just reacting to the fact her husband's shot in the head, and then she straightens up to give pertinent information. Does it strike you as unusual? I agree with Ashley. I mean, it seemed like, you know, when people are under that level of stress,

their response is fairly unrestrained and they seem inconsolable. And to just sort of snap out of it and, you know, go into this just-a-fax-man mode, it definitely would raise a red flag. But, you know, people grieve differently. People deal with stress differently. So you can't say 100%,

but it certainly raises a red flag. Have you ever considered a future in defense, Mark? Let's take a listen to more of that 911 call and see what we can figure out. Ma'am, is there anyone else in the house? No, they stopped me. Ma'am, I've already sent the police set a while ago. They're on their way. Okay, ma'am.

Ma'am, is he still breathing? Yes. He is? Yes. He is? Yes. Yes. How is his breathing, ma'am? I can't breathe. I can't breathe.

Okay, but how is his breathing is it heavy labored low shallow heavy and labored you are hearing more of the 911 call and the crying has started up again to Joe Scott Morgan, death investigator, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Joe Scott, I have to agree with Dr. Bober, okay? You never know how someone's going to react in a situation like this. You've been on a lot of death scenes, Joe Scott. She's crying again. I can't say that the first portion of the 911 call we played really proved anything to me. And believe me, I'm looking. But that first, let me just say aberration, that didn't prove anything to me. What odd behavior have you ever witnessed at death scenes? You name it. I've seen people, you know, clutching bodies, rolling around with

them, doing everything if they can just get access to them. And a lot of this is driven, driven by grief, this kind of primal response that people will have to this sudden realization that there's loss and this horror that is overcoming them. But I have also been on scenes where you'll have these individuals that will vacillate between these extreme emotional reactions where you'll have them screaming and they're incoherent and this sort of thing, and then all of a sudden they become very, very placid and they seem like they're lucid. It's really hard to judge motive and those sorts of things in that particular moment.

You have to kind of let the dust settle after a while. Do you know another parent or expecting parent? Are you wondering, what can I give them as a gift? Don't give them another onesie. Don't give them a plastic toy or, God forbid, a toy gun that's just going to end up in the garage. Give them something that matters. And what matters the most is protecting their child. What do you love most in the world?

Your children. What will you do to protect them? Anything. them anything. I sat down with the smartest people I know in the world on matters of child safety, finding missing children, fighting back against predators. And what I learned is so important, powerful, and information so critical. I want you to have it. I want them to have it. Go to crimestopshere.com for a five-part series with action information that you can use to change your life and protect your child. Payment starting $6.99. Give that as a gift, not another onesie. Find out how to protect your child when you're out at the mall or the store,

the grocery, in the parking lot, at home. Find out about protection regarding babysitters and daycare, even online. I'd rather have that any day of the week than a plastic toy or, God forbid, a toy gun. Join Justice Nation. Go to crimestopshere.com. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I'm Sergeant Ramsey. I'm the one that called you. Thank you for coming. I'm sorry to call you. Listen, we had a report of a disturbance at your house and there were shots fired. Is your husband, Michael? Okay. I'm sorry to tell you man he's been killed this killer okay we need you to calm down i'm gonna need you to go with these detectives okay does he have enemies is there anyone that would want to hurt him okay who would want to hurt him witnesses said they saw a black male running from me i can't let you see him ma'am ma'am i cannot do

this right now i need you i need you to take her to the station. Don't get too upset just yet. That's Dahlia DiPolito. And number one, her husband's not dead. And number two, she hired a hitman to kill him that happened to be an undercover agent. All right, so don't be too upset when you hear the hysterical screaming. Now, I'm not saying that this wife, Chantel Wagner, is guilty or innocent. But take a listen to the rest of her 911 call. Ma'am, what's that noise? Is that him? It's him.

Is that him... Is that him... gasping? Yes. He's dying, sir. Oh, no. oh please wow that sounds amazingly like Dahlia DiPolito still not making a comparison. Let's talk about the actual injuries. Now we know that he was found dead from an apparently self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head in his bed, found by his wife, Chantel Wagner. You're listening to her make the 911 call.

That's a heck of a dispatch officer, and usually I do not have kind words for them, but he actually identified in the background that he could hear Sergeant Troy Smith, the deceased, breathing his last breaths, very labored breathing as the wife sat by and cried, to death investigator, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, Joseph Scott Morgan, joining us. Joe Scott, let's talk about the injuries themselves, the fatal wound. What do you know? This is what I do know, Nancy. The gunshot wound that this officer sustained is slightly above and to the rear of the ear, okay? And what happens is that this round apparently has traversed from that location forward in the head. And according to what the coroner is now saying,

it appears that this round was fired at some distance. Now, I think the way that they've probably determined this, when they get the body back to the morgue, they will have cleaned off this area, and they can appreciate the disbursement of gunpowder or unburned gunpowder on the surface of the skin and you're not going to get let's say for instance this is a tight pressed gunshot wound you're not going to have a disposition of soot everywhere it'll be literally injected into the head and that's commonly what you see with suicides. This is highly irregular.

It is what we would refer to as an atypical gunshot wound for a suicide. You know what is also confusing the facts is that there was an amended autopsy report indicating the hole in the top of Smith's skull, originally thought to be the exit wound, was in fact made by surgeons operating on him before he died. Now, the amended autopsy report says the exit wound is the same as the entrance wound on the right side of Smith's head toward the front. It's a tangential or superficial wound that was incorporated into the craniotomy incision. That was subsequently sutured and sewn up and stapled as well. Now, that's going to add confusion that there was a second autopsy report and that the surgery on the top of his head was confused to be the entry wound or the exit wound of the original gunfire.

I know I'm talking in legal talk and medical talk. The coroner's report notes that although its findings as to the wound are amended, the office still cannot say whether the death was homicide or suicide because the range of fire is unknown. The range of fire is unknown. What does that mean, Joe Scott? Well, if you've got range of fire that is unknown. The range of fire is unknown. What does that mean, Joe Scott? Well, if you've got range of fire that is unknown, what that means is that there is literally no soot deposition, which means that the individual would have been outside of the range of potentially 18 inches away

when firing this thing. So hold on, let me break that down. Joe Scott is talking in very technical talk. When there is no range of fire, that means you don't know how far away the gun was. That's what that means. If a gun is within 36 inches, three feet of the body when fired, you will typically almost always get GSR, gunshot residue. You can't see with the naked eye, but when a bullet is fired, gunshot powder, as fine as baby powder, goes everywhere. You can see it under a microscope really well. And it leaves residue. It's easily washed off your hands, or if you even move or brush up against the bed sheets, it can be removed. But there was none. We know that, Joe Scott, because it says the range of fire is unknown. So it was not within three feet. Would

you agree with that? Yeah, I would. And can I just add one more thing, Nancy? When you're doing surgery on someone that has sustained this kind of injury, keep in mind, the surgeons are not interested in forensic evidence. They would have shaved his head significantly. And the fact that they used that point of entry as an entry area into this craniotomy they performed is not uncommon. You actually see it in chest wounds where people have been shot in the chest. They'll use that point to literally open up the chest. It's not uncommon to have this in the head. And if there was gunshot wound, gunshot residue, then the shaved hair would have been removed, washed away. They'll also have cleaned the skin. They may have washed it down with bait.

Can I break that down, please? I think what you're saying is he wasn't dead yet. So they tried to save his life by operating on his head. And if they had, they would have washed his hair and shaved his scalp. That would have gotten rid of all gunshot residue if he had held the gun up to his own head. Yes, no, Joe Scott. Yes, yes, you're correct. But here's my other question. What about his hand? If you pull the trigger, you've got gunshot residue on your hand.

Here's the problem. Everything, he was moved to the hospital. He was raised to the hospital. He was raised to the hospital. That being put on a gurney, being bundled up, having blankets put on you, taken off you, can remove gunshot residue. It's just like baby powder. Well, one person is convinced, regardless of the confusion in the autopsy report, that this is a suicide, that Sergeant Troy Smith did kill himself. His mother-in-law, here's his mother-in-law. Here's his mother-in-law speaking to Fox 8 reporter Natasha Robin. I just wish everyone would stop jumping to conclusions.

Tevin Welch is Chantel Wagner's mother. They were both good people. Nobody's talking bad about Troy. We love Troy. They were both good people. They both have children and I mean this is affecting all of the kids. The incident that led to Smith's death was first reported as an attempted suicide. Investigators were called to the couple's home in Wagamon on June 17th, Father's Day night. They found Smith in a bedroom with a single gunshot wound to the head. He died a week later in the hospital. He's a very dedicated and strong-willed and strong person all around. So it was very shocking.

And most of his friends thought the same way. Smith's friends say Wagner's story of an attempted suicide never added up. He was definitely a career police officer and dedicated. You know, he was in the military also. He was just that kind of guy and certainly not the type that you would think would take this route. You are hearing a former co-worker saying that Sergeant Troy Smith was not the type to be depressed and kill himself. Speaking to Fox 8 reporter Natasha Robin, how does that factor in for you, Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, that no friend thought that he would commit suicide and also that he has this strong police and military background known for self-discipline?

Well, you know, Nancy, it's not this positive. I mean, it's certainly, you know, one factor that goes against suicide. But, you know, I have to say I've worked with a lot of police officers. I'm the psychiatrist for the Broward Sheriff's Office, and I see a lot of deputies. And the police officers tend to actually have a higher suicide rate than the general population. And you can make the argument whether that's, you know, their individual makeup or just the stress of the job. So I think it's one factor that rules against suicide, but certainly not doesn't prove it one way or the other. But now, in a sudden twist, the case takes another turn. Chantel Wagner was indicted for second degree murder that's according to her lawyer Leo Palazzo as the DA here in Jefferson Parish alleges that she shot and killed her husband

JPSO Sergeant Troy Smith and then tried to cover it up. Now Wagner was arrested she has not been able to make bond. You are hearing from WDSU reporter Travers Mackle reporting the wife, Shante Wagner, has now been taken into custody. Straight out to Dave Mack, talk show host. What happened? What changed to make them arrest his wife? Well, what led them to arrest his wife was that they actually forensically determined that the gunshot came from the back of his head and that the gun was two to three feet away. That's what ultimately was what we're reading and what we're seeing from the police. It was all forensically. It took them time, but they knew right away. You don't get shot in the back of the head when you're

shooting yourself. And I'm not trying to make light of suicide by any stretch of the imagination, but you know, going back to that 911 call, Nancy, did you notice how, when she was talking to the 911 operator, she was getting that, sir, sir, that kind of calm thing that people do when they're guilty of something, but they're trying to act right with somebody they see as a law enforcement official. It happens on, if you ever watch interactions with police officers and criminals, they'll always say, sir, sir, I didn't do anything, sir, I'm innocent. And it's like, that's what she was doing on that 911 call. It caught my attention and it scares the crap out of me because she was such a good actress.

Well, let's take a listen to that, especially the initial part of the 911 call. Listen. 12 Communion Lane. My husband just shot himself in the head. 12 Communion Lane. Communion Lane and Wagamon. He's a police officer, sir.

12 Communion Lane and Wagamon. Yes, he's going to need somebody now. Okay. Hold on, man. I'm sending them out now. Ma'am? Ma'am? Yes, sir. Okay, ma'am, I need you to go up to him. I need you to tell me if he's still breathing. He's breathing, but he's barely breathing. Sorry, he's bleeding everywhere. Okay, is he conscious?

Is he able to say anything? No, sir. He shot himself in the head. Okay. All right, ma'am. I'm going to stand in line with you for a moment. I'm going to stand in line with you for a bit, ma'am. I need you to tell me what your name is. My name is Chantel. Chantel? Yes. And he's a police officer, sir. He's a police officer? Yes. His name is Troy Smith. He's a JP. There you are hearing exactly what Dave Mack,

talk show host, is talking about. I want to talk about that and the forensics. To Dr. Daniel Boebert, what do you make of Dave Mack's observation? I mean, you know, listen, there's not, I don't think there's been a scientific study that would support that. But, you know, people behave differently under different situations. And I don't, there's very few, you know, a lot of people talk about this. You know, you can tell by someone's blink rate if they're lying. And there's really never been a reliable test that shows that someone's being deceiving.

I mean, there are certainly signs, but there's nothing that proves it definitively, which is also why polygraphs aren't admissible in court. So it's just very difficult to know for sure. To Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator, I want to talk about the forensics, the wound. Yes, as you accurately pointed out, all potential gunshot residue was removed when the hospital surgeons were trying to save his life. But what about the wound itself? Well, the wound itself, Nancy, was to it. And there's not going to be a lot of disruption. There's not any gas passing through. It's not going to be blown apart. And it's going to give a very fixed position as to where the individual was oriented that fired the weapon into this man's head. Apparently, the individual was certainly above them, to the rear of them, and fired

downward at this individual. He didn't kill him initially because we could hear those agonal respirations, which means that the primal brain wasn't clipped at that point in time. It just kind of passes through. You had mentioned this tangential gunshot wound. It passes through almost peripherally, so he's bleeding out. And you can hear her saying he's bleeding out, he's bleeding out. He's probably bleeding from the nose, the mouth, maybe the wound itself. But the primal brain at the very base is keeping his heart

going, it's keeping the respirations going, and so they're just trying to save his life, but this is an unrecoverable injury that he sustained. To Ashley Wilcott, judge, lawyer, founder, childcrimewatch.com, they were nearly $300,000 in debt. Both had filed, both respectively had filed for bankruptcy. Would that be motive for either homicide or suicide? So homicide or suicide, the problem is, let's say they had a life insurance policy, for instance, whether it's suicide or homicide, if she's in fact convicted of that, then in fact, it's not going to be a financial gain to have that policy because it's not going to be paid out. So, you know, is it a motive? It's always a motive. Money, sex, drugs, always the motives for people to do these things. But I don't see how there'd be a financial gain from her killing him if she's convicted of that.

Here's another issue. We learned recently that none of the wife's DNA was found on the weapon. We've heard that in support of a suicide claim. We've also heard that, based on a recreation, the bullet hole was found, a bullet hole was found in the wall at the home. We don't know if it was made the same day as the shooting. What more do we know? To Dave Mack, syndicated talk show host.

Nancy, what we know is only what is being reported. And they're being kind of closed-lipped over a number of different things about whether there's DNA on the gun or what have you. I go back to the real charge was that they investigated this. And they came back and they said it was based on forensic evidence from the gunshot wound. And you got it back on blood spatter, too. She could have washed her hands. She could have washed off the gun. She could have done any number of things to cover this up.

She also, she's not an idiot. She's been married to him for a few years. And by the way, I want to go back to one thing you were talking about with bankruptcy. Just so you know, when people get a chapter 13, they don't lose anything. That's just a reorganization so that they can make all their payments

into a lower lump sum. And it actually gives them some breathing room. So somebody who was stressed out on financial issues actually gets a rebirth under Chapter 13. That wouldn't be a reason to go and take a gun to your head. It actually would be a reason to go out and have dinner because you would have a little extra money to do that. Good point. Right now, we wait as justice unfolds. We know that the wife, Chantel Wagner, has had her bail lowered. It has now been reset at $300,000. That's lower than the $500,000 that was typically set for that kind of case. That means she's got to come up with $30,000 cash or collateral.

Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast. Goodbye, friend.