Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Susan Smith Drowns Her Boys, HAS MULTIPLE LOVERS BEHIND BARS

Episode Date: November 24, 2023

After high school,  Susan Leigh Vaughan marries David Smith. They have two sons, but the children don't keep the marriage together.  The Smiths separated several times. During one of these separations, Susan Smith begins dating Tom Findlay, the single son of a wealthy mill owner.  Smith is planning a future with her new beau when she gets a Dear John letter from Findley. He explains that he doesn't want an instant family. On the night of October 25, Susan Smith knocks on the door of a house near John D Long Lake. She is hysterical when the man answers the door and tells him to call the police. She says an armed black man just carjacked her at a red light. Her two boys, 3-year-old Michael and 14-month-old Alex, are still in the car.  For days Susan Smith tells an ever-changing story of the carjacking. Then Susan Smith finally admits what she has done. There never was a hijacker. She went out for a drive with her sons buckled into their car seats in the back. Feeling desperate,  alone, and suicidal, she drove to John D. Long Lake and puts the car in neutral. She jumps out and watches the car sink. Scuba divers locate the vehicle with the boys in the back, still buckled into their seats. Since Susan Smith was convicted and jailed, tabloid news reports claim Smith told prison investigators that she had four sexual encounters with Lieutenant Houston Cagle, a supervisor at South Carolina's Women's Correctional Institution. Cagle admitted having sex with Smith and another prisoner. He was charged with the offenses in August 2000. The 50-year-old Cagle pleaded guilty and spent 3 months in jail. Captain Alfred Rowe also pleaded guilty to having sex with Smith and was sentenced to five years' probation.    Now Smith's relationship with men turns to pen pals. Several men have written to Smith over the years, with Smith looking to a life outside prison.   In March of 2022, People magazine gained access to letters Smith wrote to a long-distance boyfriend.  In one letter Smith wrote, "I can't wait to build a life with you, leave the past mistakes behind and start fresh, just you and me."  The Messenger has reportedly obtained transcripts of dozens of voice and text messages that Susan Smith traded with at least six men while serving her time in Prison. One man has gone so are as to build a fake life for Susan Smith and himself in the game the Sims also has a pet name for the convicted child killer, "Pookie."  Joining Nancy Grace Today: Tara Malek – Boise, ID, Attorney & Co-owner of Smith + Malek; Former State and Federal Prosecutor; Twitter: @smith_malek Dr. Bethany Marshall – Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills, CA); Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall; Twitter: @DrBethanyLive  Chris McDonough – Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective; Host of YouTube channel: “The Interview Room” JoScott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University; Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet;” Host: “Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" Twitter: @JoScottForensic  Dave Mack - CrimeOnline Investigative Reporter See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You think we would ever hear the last of Susan Smith? Yes, Susan Smith. Remember her? Okay, you know what? I'm going to play a 911 call to jog your memory. But first, I'm Nancy Grayson. This is Crime Stories. I've got an all-star panel with me to make sense of what's happening with Susan Smith right now. Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories and on Sirius XM 111. See if this jogs your memory.

Listen. Yes, ma'am. There's a lady who come up that door and some guy jumped into a red light with her car with her two kids in it and he took off and she got out of the car here at Ohio. And he's got the kids? Yes, ma'am. I'm in her car. I don't. She's real hysterical and I just decided I need to get them down here. I love that degree of detail. You know, I don't even know where to go first because I've got such awesome experts, but

I'm going to go first with Chris McDonough. He is the director of Cold Case Foundation. Okay, don't care. Former homicide detective, starting to care, getting warm, getting warm, getting hotter. He has his own YouTube channel the interviewing where I found him you can find him at cold case foundation org or on the interviewing former homicide detective 300 ish homicide scenes under his belt Chris McDonough don't you love the degree of detail hey you know what Cindy sometimes you

got to hear the best stuff can you play that one more time listen yes ma'am there's a lady you come up that door and uh she some guy jumped into a red light with her car with her two kids in it and he took off and she got out of the car here at Ohio and he's got the kid yes ma'am in her car I don't's quite real hysterical We're going. Don't get him going, Pam. I got two keys. Okay. All the detail, Chris McDonough. She's, quote, real hysterical. And you need to call the law and get him down here right now. And you hear her feeding details in the background. Nancy, wasn't that the narrative that captivated America?

How can you be so calm? You know, we just get used to it, unfortunately, right? How can you be so calm? I still get very angry. Very angry. And I know the end of this story. But the detail. Have you ever seen perps and they will spin you a yarn with such incredibly rich detail? Yeah. with such incredibly rich detail. Yeah, and typically that detail, if it's that minutia and that amount, it's typically a sign of deception.

And she kicked it off right from that 911 call. From the beginning, the beginning, running up to somebody's house, talking about some guy jumps out. And you know, this occurs in rural Union County, South Carolina, near the John D. Long Lake. And, you know, hold on, Chris McDonough, where do you live, Chris? Well, right now I'm in Arizona, but I lived in South Carolina right there in Mount Pleasant. You're very familiar with this area. Let me go to another country boy, like this country girl right here.

Joe Scott Morgan joining me, although he's gotten pretty highfalutin. Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet, still waiting on another book to come out. Host of Body Bags, a hit podcast, now starring, my goodness, Joe Scott, in the Pike County Murders, a family massacre. It's going to premiere on Oxygen November 24 at 8 p.m. It's going to be the first Pike County Murder, then the second Pike County Murder after the first one, November 24th, 8 p.m. on Oxygen. Then the next night, Friday night, the third episode of Pike County murders, a family massacre.

Am I through plugging everything or is there what are you starring in a movie with with Meryl Streep? Am I leaving anything out, Joe Scott Morgan? I'm exhausted after all of that. I know I'm completely exhausted just reading your CV. But that said, this area, Chris McDonough has lived in South Carolina. I've gone to this scene before. It's extremely rural. And I'm supposed to believe a guy jumps out of what from behind a stop sign and hijacks her car and takes off with the children clearly in the back seat. Two little boys.

What are the odds that you're going to have somebody that wants to do this kind of harm? Whether or not they had an awareness that, you know, these poor little angels were buckled down in those back seats. The fact that you would have this kind of aggressive behavior in that location where she was specifically targeted as an investigator, I'm certainly going to raise an eyebrow. I'm going to take a long look at what she has to say, because as you and I both know, Nancy, the lion's share, the lion's share of homicides that we talk about have some kind of familial connection. That means that you're around intimates, those individuals that are most important. So you're going to tell

me that a random stranger just came up and kidnapped these babies and run off with them and left her standing on the side of the road weeping. Now, did you hear what he just did, Chris McDonough? I'm going along with everything he says, but he's a wily one. You've got to really watch what Joe Scott says. I agree with the whole rural aspect, but did you hear him say, if the unknown male assailant noticed the children in the back seat? I'm looking right now at a 94 Mazda Protege.

You can see straight into the backseat from every angle of the car. It's not like, you know, you see those black SUVs with tinted windows. You can't see what's going on in there. No, you can see exactly what's going on in the backseat. And I'm looking at a shot from the distance. I can see through the back window, through the back dash, and through the other side of the car. Whoever took the car could definitely see that children were strapped into car seats in the back seat. 100%. I mean, okay, you know what? Let's take a listen to the 911 call.

Listen. Union 105. 105, go ahead. Said it was a black male driving a burgundy protege. Affirmative, 105. He had two juveniles with him.

105, from what I understood, these were small children. These are her children and she jumped out of the car and he took the car with the children and he's headed toward Chester. Union 100. 100, go ahead. I mean, really? Tara, I'm leading up to what Susan Smith is doing right now. And let me tell you, it involves six different men. That said, Tara Malik joining me out of Boise, Idaho.

Co-owner Smith and Malik, former state and federal prosecutor. Tara, once again, blame the black man. I remember when this happened, I was trying a case and I looked over at my friend, my colleague, who went on to be a judge, I might add. And I went, Herman, have you seen the composite of the guy that Susan Smith described? And he went, yeah, I know what you're going to say. I'm like, yeah, it looks just like you. It looked just like Herman Sloan, my trial partner, who had come into court to bail me

out of some sling I got in with the judge with some appellate law trying to suggest that I was right and whatever I did. But he went, yeah, I've heard. I look just like the Susan Smith perk. And he did. I mean, think about it, Tara. An innocent person could have been arrested and probably tried and convicted based on her fake composite and all of her lies. Like my Herman, one of my best friends in the DA's office. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the crime itself was atrocious and horrific and terrible. And then, and then, you know, to give this false profile of someone else who may have done it, wasting resources, law enforcement resources, wasting everybody's time, but also, like you said,

putting somebody else potentially in jeopardy of being picked up for it. And it's just mind-boggling that she would go down this road. You know, I've dealt with the SOD defense many times. I named it that. Some other dude did it. S-O-D-D. Here she goes. Some other dude did it. S-O-D-D. Here she goes. Some other dude did it. And listen to her.

Listen. I would like to say to whoever has my children that they please, I mean, please bring them home to us where they belong. You play that one more time. I would like to say to whoever has my children that they please, I mean please bring them home to us where they belong. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Dr. Bethany Marshall, I hate to drag you away from all your clients

on Rodeo Drive complaining about how expensive the shoes and the designer bags are. By the way, I think I've told you this. It's Rodeo, R-O-D-E-O. It is not Rodeo. That said, Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us as much as I'm pulling her leg. She's a renowned psychoanalyst at DrBethanymarshall.com. As a matter of fact, she now has a recurring role in Paris in Love season two.

That said, Dr. Bethany, I don't get it. Right now, we've got, that I know of, six men, six men sexting and texting and writing and sending money and love letters to Susan Smith. When she is a bald faced liar that killed her children in the worst way, letting her car, her burgundy protege, go down a ramp with the two little boys alive strapped in the back seat. Why? I don't get it. Why would men want to be with this woman, send her money and sex text with her? But did you hear her lying? Do you remember when that happened crying and the snotting and the all that happening and i i want to say whoever has my children they please please bring them home to us where they belong knowing full well they drowned strapped in their car seats what shows how immature she is

at the most basic level that she thinks. Okay, wait, wait, wait. The most you can say she's immature? She murdered two little boys. We know she's a sociopath. But what beyond the fact that she's a sociopath, what additional factors are there that would lead to this?

And one is an over attachment to men she loves that feeling of falling in love the feeling you have the first how are you linking this to double murder why this woman did not get the death penalty i do not know and now there's six guys trying to have sex with her really ew but it's really it's really a pathological attachment to men. It's like being in a barrel with a rattlesnake. Who was that? Well, apparently they do. And, you know, women who commit fantasize, who kill their children, often have some really, first of all, they're usually what we call cluster B. You better not say really has some sexy mojo going on because I'm totally cutting your mic.

Okay. So they're cluster B, which means they have three different disorders, sociopathy, bipolar, and borderline. Often they have a very pathological attachment to men. Either they kill the children to get back at the love object, like I'm going to kill our children because I'm mad at you. It's hard to describe this without really sounding like it's trite,

but these are the underpinnings of what these women do. So it's either, I'm going to kill the children to get back at you, or I'm going to kill the children because I found a new guy, and I don't want the children

to be in the way. Interesting that you said that. Interesting. But I also want you to hear the level of detail that she weaves into her big fat lie about her two murdered little boys. I can't get out. The car goes underwater on a muddy lake, and you're in the car screaming for mommy as that car fills up with water till you drown. Listen to our cut for Crime Online. On the night of October 25th, Susan Smith knocks on the door of a house near John D. Long Lake. She's hysterical when the man answers the door and tells him to call the police.

A black man just carjacked her at a red light. He had a gun and she jumped out of the car. But her two boys, three-year-old Michael and 14-month-old Alex, are still in the car. Police begin searching immediately and the nation's media converges on Union, South Carolina. For eight days, Susan Smith tells an ever-changing story of the carjacking, and friends get irritated when she keeps asking if Tom Finley has reached out to see her. Friends wonder why she would care about Finley when her two children are missing. On day nine of intense media pressure, Susan Smith meets with Union County Sheriff Howard Wells,

and Wells meets with the press okay um note to self who is tom finley but there's more there's more listen susan smith has carried the lie as far as she can when she finally admits what she's done there never was a black man with a gun that stole her car with her kids in the back. She now says she went out for a drive with her sons buckled into their car seats in the back. Feeling desperate, alone, and suicidal, she now says she drove to John D. Long Lake and planned to roll the car into the lake. Smith puts the car in neutral, but instead of going into the lake with the car and the

boys, she jumps out and watches the car sink. Based on her directions for where the car should be, scuba divers locate the vehicle with the boys in the back still buckled into their seats. Just let that soak in for just one moment. Claiming, you know, why is it, Chris McDonough, that all these people that want to commit suicide end up killing their children or their family or somebody else, yet they miraculously live? Yeah, I mean, just a horrific thought in and of itself. Right, Nancy?

And I actually drove the entire route that Susan Smith took that day. There were ample opportunities for her to change her mind and turn around. I mean, there were stop signs. They were, you know, through residential neighborhoods. And to think that she was saying to the public, you know, or to the police when she initially confessed, well, you know, I thought about committing suicide, but I couldn't do it, et cetera. So I jumped out. You know, when you go to that boat ramp where these poor little babies are strapped in those back seats. And as that car is going down that ramp, I would submit to you, she had gotten out of that car almost immediately and let that car go to your point a couple of minutes ago. And as that water started to fill that vehicle,

can you imagine the horror that these children were experiencing and the mother standing there as that vehicle started to sink. It took about six, I think between six to 15 seconds for that vehicle to hit the water and within a minute it was submerged. Nancy, it just shows how cold-blooded she is. She could stand on the shore, look at the car submerged, and knowing that her babies were drowning. It really gives you insight into how detached and just cold-blooded she is. Yeah, who is this woman? Take a listen to Hour 3 from CrimeOnline.com.

After high school, she began dating David Smith. Soon, there's a baby on the way, and the pair decide to get married. Ultimately, they have two boys, Michael Daniel and Alexander Tyler. But the children don't keep the marriage together. The Smiths separate several times. During one of these separations, Susan Smith begins dating Tom Finley, the single son of a wealthy mill owner. Aha! So, that is who Tom Finley is. Okay, Tara Malik, high-profile lawyer joining us from her own law firm, Smith & Malik. Would that be motive? She wants to be with this rich guy? the trial itself. And there was some conflicting testimony. One of the theories of the case

that was put on and suspected was that she wanted to be with Thomas Finley. Finley didn't like the fact that, you know, she had two kids and in a way or in an attempt to get back together with Finley, who she was having an affair with, you know, she drowned her two boys. The other testimony that was presented during the trial was that, you know, she was someone who was an abused child. She had had a secret affair with her stepfather. She was frightened of her husband, you know. And so I think those details this jury ended up grappling with. And it's a case that should have been a death penalty case, but unfortunately not here. You know, isn't it true, Dave Mack joining us from CrimeOnline.com, that Finley broke it off with her, claiming he did not want an instant family?

He did. And Nancy, more to the point, or more than just saying, I don't want kids. There were other things he stated in there about her and their relationship. He also cited their different upbringings and that that was a big stumbling block. Another one, the way Susan Smith acted and flirted with other men. He didn't like that. So he mentioned three basic things that he really didn't want an instant family. But these other two things were mentioned as well. And one was her own behavior of hitting on other men. But she dismisses that in her thought process, blames it all on the kids and thinks she can get him back if she just gets rid of that.

She doesn't address the fact that she hits on men all the time. So let me understand something. Dave Mack, she met Finley, the son of the rich guy, when she and her husband were what, divorced? Separated what? Separated. They actually, when they were married, they had several full-on separations where they were not living together, were dating other people.

And yet they would then get back together. And it was on and off for, I think, I mean, after they had the last son, he was 14 months old while this happened. So it was an ongoing process in their relationship, the breaking up, getting back together. Let me go back to Dr. Bethany Marshall. What do you make of this? It was always presented that Finley broke up with her because he didn't want an instant family. But according to the letter he sent her before she murdered her two little boys, it was a lot more than that. He's probably minimizing it because now he has the scrutiny of the country and the court and saying, well, I didn't really want her anyway. But there's partially, I think, a half truth in that. Maybe

he wasn't ready for a family and children and he was contemplating that. And I think Susan Smith was the kind of woman who would just ignore the fact that he didn't want to be with her. She would think, oh, you know, I'll buy a new dress. Oh, I'll go shopping. Oh, I'll buy some lipstick. I'll wear a low cut dress. Oh, I'll go shopping. Oh, I'll buy some lipstick. I'll wear a low-cut dress. Oh, I'll just kill my children. I mean, she would just throw everything at it to get him back. So I think if he was ambivalent about her, that may have even incentivized her to kill her children. Okay.

I obviously need to reword my question. There were other behaviors he found disturbing, which led to his decision to break it off with her. Not only that he did not want an instant family, but he did not like the way she acted promiscuously with other guys. He didn't want that. I think some women relate primarily to men because they feel they can seduce them. And I think this was probably her MO that the minute she met a man, she would be flirtatious, she would be overly sexualized, she would try to attract them. She probably did that all the time, because this is a way of feeling important, like she's a real person in the real world. And she doesn't really have to relate to the men.

If it's sexual in an instant, then they never become real people to her. They're all just objects, love objects who flatter her. Less than an hour, cut four. Susan Smith is planning a future with the best catch in the county when she gets a Dear John letter from Dear Tom. He explains he doesn't think the relationship will work because of the difference in their upbringing, the way she acts towards other men, and he doesn't want an instant family. He doesn't want children right now. Susan dismisses her upbringing or her behavior towards other men as possible deal breakers in the relationship. And the only thing she sees

is Tom Finley doesn't want children. So she ignores everything except the children part of the complaint. And then suddenly, poof, they're gone. In the last days, Susan Smith back in the news, apparently having a romantic relationship with at least six men behind bars. Okay, what does that mean? Well, there are precursors to today's report of Susan Smith's relationships with six guys. What precursors? Well, listen to our cut 10. A tabloid news report claiming Susan Smith had been beaten by guards at a prison in South Carolina gave birth to an investigation into the matter. While there was no proof she had been beaten, Smith told prison investigators that she had four sexual encounters with Lieutenant Houston Cagle, a supervisor at South Carolina's Women's

Correctional Institution, WCI, where she's confined. Cagle admitted having sex with Smith and another prisoner and was charged with the offense in August of 2000. Smith was 28 at the time and was disciplined for having sex with the guard, while 50-year-old Cagle pleaded guilty and spent three months in jail. In 2001, a prison captain, Alfred Rowe, also pleaded guilty to having sex with Smith and was sentenced to five years probation. It was then discovered that Susan Smith engaged in sexual relations with Cagle after she tested positive for an STD. OK, so she claims I was beaten and that spawns an investigation. But it turns out she wasn't beaten.

She was sleeping with various prison guards. Joe Scott Morgan, remind me, what is it like to drown? You're the death investigator. One of the most horrible deaths that you can even begin to think about. And the fact is, the thing that's always bothered me about this case, Nancy, is that with Alex and Michael, and I think it's really important that I say their names at this moment in time because they are the victims. When they were strapped in those little seats in the back of that Mazda, in that tight little confined place where maybe their mother had taken them to

McDonald's before, had taken them all over town, and suddenly they're at the edge of a boat ramp and they're thinking, you know, what's mama doing now? You know, she gets out of the car and as that car is left in neutral and goes down that boat ramp and begins to slowly sink beneath those dark waters out there, you know, they found that car about 120 feet off of the shore. The dive team had looked for it for some period of time. Car was filled with water. Those kids were still strapped in that back seat. And our reaction as humans, if we're trying to catch our breath, is to fight.

And just imagine this, Nancy. They're strapped. We've all got babies in our families that we've taken care of. We've strapped them in car seats. And have you ever seen a child struggle to get out of the car seat? They're tired of being in it. Well, imagine that, only water's creeping up on you. Water's getting into your nose, your little mouth, your eyes.

You're running out of oxygen. Your brain is screaming. It's on fire because there's no oxygen. You can't catch your breath. And you have no idea. It's panic that's setting in. And it would not have been. I just want to dispel any kind of fantasy somebody might be having right now that this was a sudden and a quick death.

It wasn't. It was torturous. It was absolutely horrific what these babies went through at that moment. Tom, Nancy, and I'm with you. I'm still to this day just befuddled. Why? Why? She's not sitting on death row and, you know, forever and ever. She's getting to go on with her life now, isn't she? And those babies died, died at this monster's hands out there in that lake. Knowing full well what she did, immediately running to a nearby home, claiming that an unknown male had jumped into her car and I guess the only red light in the county. And I feel okay saying that because where I grew up, we didn't even have a

red light. So out of the entire county, an unknown assailant jumps into her car at the one red light, takes her car and murders her children. Okay. this is the woman these guys want to be with? Now, at least six men? Speaking of them, there's the matter of Captain Alfred Rowe. Now, we heard about Cagle. Cagle, a supervisor at South Carolina Women's CI Correctional Institute. And what happened with him? We know that he was ultimately identified because Susan Smith turned up with an STD behind bars. But there's more. Take a listen to our cut 11. Does she not realize there are consequences to actions? Captain Alfred Smith was one of the guards who lost their careers after having sex with Susan Smith behind bars. Roe says

Smith is a master manipulator, telling Inside Edition that Smith approached him at three in the morning, telling him she thought he was the nicest officer at the prison and that she was lonely. The former guard says things just escalated from there. Rowe claims he only had sex with Smith one time, but it cost him everything. He was fired from the job, lost his pension, and after pleading guilty to having sex with Smith, he was sentenced to five years probation. Now that's Captain Alfred Rowe, who loses his job, he's fired. Lost his pension that he's been working for for years and plays guilty and gets put on probation. Is that a hallmark of this type of personality, Dr. Bethany Marshall, that there are they think there are no consequences to what they do or they don't worry about the consequences? How does that work? First of all, I wouldn't let this prison guard off so easy. I just have to throw that out there. He works around disturbed women all the time who

are probably sexualized with him. But putting that aside, I don't think Susan Smith can even fathom a consequence. I think if you did a brain scan, you would see that the areas responsible for empathy, impulse control, all of that would probably not even light up. She probably has a different brain than the rest of us. You know, fMRI scans of sociopaths do show that they have profoundly different functioning. But think of her as she kind of operates at the level of a three-year-old in some way, in some ways, because she or a two-year-old grabs for whatever she wants. And then operates also like at the immaturity level of a 14 or 15-year-old who just has crushes on boys all the time. And, you know, that's all she can think about. So, you know, in terms of what's swirling around in her head, I'm sure it's just

being gratified and thinking she can get away with it. Well, guys, she was moved. Take a listen to our cut 12. Sex isn't the only issue Susan Smith has faced in prison. Twice in 2010 and once in 2015, Susan Smith was disciplined on drug charges, losing privileges for more than a year. Susan Smith's drug use escalated when she switched prisons from Camille Graham Correctional Center in Columbia, South Carolina, to Leith Correctional Institution in Greenwood, South Carolina. Former prison guard Alfred Rowe, who pleaded guilty to having sex with Smith at the prison, told the TV show Cellmate Secrets when Smith was moved from one prison to another

that it was at that point where, quote, she could no longer get the male attention that she used as a drug, unquote, and instead turned to pill. Which led to a series of drug infractions. But you know what? Let's fast forward to right now, to today. Take a listen to our cut 15. Susan Smith dreams of the day she'll be released. To that end, she's taken to writing a number of men over the years. In March of 2022, People Magazine gained access to letters Smith wrote to a long-distance boyfriend.

In one letter, she wrote, I can't wait to build a life with you. Leave the past mistakes behind and start fresh, just you and me. A relative of Smith told People Magazine at the time that Smith wants everything in life that she believes has passed her by. You know, everything in life she wanted passed her by because she committed murder. crime stories with nancy grace tara malik is with us high profile lawyer joining us out of boise from the firm smith and malik the narrative her her story that she projects is so different from reality. Life has not passed her by. She committed double murder. That's what happened. It's not anyone's fault, but her own. Absolutely. I mean, and if life

passed her by, how does she characterize what she did to her son? She took their life away. They didn't even have the opportunity to live a life. I mean, these were really young kids here. And I think, you know, the pattern of behavior that she's exhibited, like the infractions that she's picked up while she's been in prison, I mean, all of this doesn't tend to show that this is someone who has been rehabilitated while in prison. I mean, she's still showing those signs of manipulation that, you know, she engaged in before she was convicted and sentenced, you know, leading on the nation for nine days, telling lies about what actually happened, telling lies and pointing fingers at people that didn't exist.

So this is a really deeply disturbed individual. I'd be shocked if the parole board granted her her request. Chris McDonough with me, a former homicide detective and host of YouTube channel The Interview Room, who has investigated at least 300 homicides. You know, defendants can be very, very charming. Think about Scott Peterson or Dr. Martin McNeil, who killed his wife, a beauty queen. According to Susan Smith's family, they say, quote, she seems to be happy and that she, quote, always had a messy love life. She's creating a fictional version of her life. And people are buying it. These guys, these lonely hearts are buying it

and attempting to have, let me just say, romantic interludes with her, Chris McDonough. Have you ever met a charming murder defendant because I have absolutely Nancy and and what's interesting about her is we have to always remember that all behavior has a purpose and that past behavior is usually an indication of future behavior so she has always you know throughout her entire case and through her life here while in prison and even before prison, she always sometimes projected the words of they into her vocabulary. And if you, if we listen real carefully to the minutiae of what she said in the very beginning. Whoever they are, please bring them

home. I.e. she's talking about two suspects, but she talks about one in terms of a description. And now if we fast forward that to today, we have six individuals, men, who quite frankly, I can't figure that piece of the puzzle out. You know, that's for the doctors to tell us what that's all about. But she is utilizing that behavior still to this day by talking about money, by talking about sexual, you know, tiffs there between the two of them. And she hasn't lost a spot from Miss Leopard. And, you know, God forbid she gets out in 24

if she is ever up for parole. Nancy, can I jump in about this real quickly? Yeah, but Dr. Bethany, I want you to hear something. Oh, sure. One of these guys is an airline pilot and they're creating a fictionalized life for her.

Take a listen to Hour 18. The man who has built a fake life for Susan Smith and himself in the game The Sims also has a pet name for the convicted child killer, Pookie. The messenger shared an exchange from August where he writes, Dearest Pookie, been thinking of you and miss you so much. Hoping I can do something for you soon. Love you so much it hurts. Your Pookie. The man exchanging these messages was Smith, a 60-year-old airline pilot. Okay, Dr. Bethany, I don't want him to fly my plane. I really don't. I can't tell you why.

Just a gut instinct. You know, Nancy, a wise colleague once said to me, the cornerstone of good mental health is having a preference for reality, which we all struggle with. These two are way out of touch with reality. They're building a fantasy life. They have fantasy children. One of the children is even called after, named after her deceased son. So when you live in like a fantasy world, you never have to contend with reality. You know, imagine when you met your husband, you know, you're having all these wonderful thoughts, it's very idealized, it's a fun time. But then the reality is he has a personality and you have to share a home with him. Maybe you see him sitting on the toilet, maybe you see him blowing his nose. You know, he becomes a real person.

But some people only want that initial fantasy. When, to quote Helen Fisher, who's a cultural anthropologist, in the first six months of a relationship, the brain fires as if it's on cocaine. You know, I'm trying to figure out these guys too, Dr. Bethany, because Dave Mack joining me, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, one of the men seeking for a romantic interlude with Susan Smith, the double killer, says she's not what you think she is.

I just find her interesting and misunderstood. She's actually set for a parole hearing in November 2024. That's one year from now. That's what, you know, she was sentenced to life with the possibility of probation after 30 years. The first week of November next year, she will show up in front of the parole board. Her ex-husband and the father of those boys is going to be there. You know, Joe Scott Morgan, maybe we just know too much when it comes to murder. Because when I think of Susan Smith, I immediately think of being trapped, strapped in to a car as it's going down a ramp and going underwater. And seeing the water coming up on either side and starting to pour in through the windshields as it comes up around you and you can't get out. I mean,

the children in this case were three and 14 months. They never stood a chance within this environment. And here's another thing that people might not be aware of after that car dip beneath the surface of that water one other element we have to consider and again i go back to the idea that we all have had babies you know parents that sort of thing i've got you know kids and grandkids whom i love dearly and what is it the kids are afraid of late at night it's darkness and it would you would not have been able to have seen your hand in front of your face. So not only are they absent, a loving mother who normally you would hope would take care of them. They're they're disoriented. They're running out of breath. And it's dark, Nancy.

It's cold and it's dark down there. And that's that goes to the level of horror that they're that they're experiencing. I wish I wish every single one of these so-called men that are reaching out to her would would slip over South Carolina at some time and maybe go to this little United Methodist church where these two little babies are buried and stare at those headstones just for a moment. When they're thinking about involving themselves with this individual that they're going to sow their hearts to, if you will. But they don't care. They're as callous as she is. They don't care about these two little boys that drowned. All they care about is this fantasy life they're in, having phone sex, imagining that she's just waiting for them, that they're going to have this great life when she gets out. You know, these guys are kind of control freaks in a way because they have complete, in their fantasy life, they have complete control over her. Please contact the South Carolina Pardon and Parole Board

at 803-734-3505. Repeat, 803-734-3505. These and you guys, she's got on the hook for love and money. That's their problem. But what's on my mind are the two little boys that lost their lives in the John D. Long Lake. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.