Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - SWAMP MAN: "Brian Laundrie Won't survive in Carlton Reserve"

Episode Date: October 7, 2021

Law enforcement again searching the Carlton Reserve for missing fugitive Brian Laundrie and today his father joins the search. Fox News reports that Chris Laundrie arrived at Myakkatchee Creek Enviromental Park, which is adjacent to the Carlton Reserve. The entrances the parks are reportedly 17 miles away from each other, and that's been reported the actual location that the Laundries retrieved the silver Mustang Brian Laundrie was driving when he left his parents home to go hiking. That Mustang was ticketed on September 14. Joining Nancy Grace today: “Turtleman” Chris Adams  swamp survival expert  Facebook: Living Wild,  TikTok @GAturtleman   Matt Hogan - Appalachian Trail Hiker   Dale Carson - Criminal Defense Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent, Former Police Officer, Author: "Arrest-Proof Yourself, DaleCarsonLaw.com   Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta GA www.angelaarnoldmd.com, Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital   Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, ColdCaseCrimes.org, Twitter: @ColdCaseTips   Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan"   Mahsa Saeidi - Investigative Reporter, WFLA-TV (Tampa), Twitter/Instagram: @MahsaWho, Facebook: "WFLAMahsa"  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. In the last hours, there is a renewed search for so-called boyfriend of we now know deceased Gabby Petito, Brian Laundrie in the Carlton Reserve, 25,000 acres of swamp land. Why? This, as Laundrie's parents say, they are now finally going to search for their son, suggesting that they have been disallowed from searching for him in the past. Can he survive in Carleton Reserve? Has a new fresh campsite just been found in Carleton Reserve? What are the odds? Or is he far, far away on the

Appalachian Trail or beyond? Joining us today, a swamp survival expert, Chris Adams, also known as the Turtle Man, and you'll see why. Also with me, an expert joining me from the Appalachian Trail. What are his chances? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. First of all, take a listen to this. Breaking news in the Gabby Petito case. A source close to the Laundrie family told me that law enforcement says they found fresh traces of a campsite in the reserve. As you know, authorities are currently searching for Brian Laundrie in the Carlton Preserve in Venice, Florida. An attorney for the Laundrie family says the parents believe that's exactly where he's located.

Quote, they don't believe he's in another area. They believe he is in the preserve. You are hearing our friends over at CNN. Let me introduce you an all-star panel. First of all, high-profile lawyer joining me out of Florida, Dale Carson, and a former FBI agent, Dr. Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. You can find her at AngelaArnoldMD.com. Founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl McCollum. You can find her at ColdCaseCrimes.org. Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon,

and star of a brand-new hit series on iHeart, Body Bags, with Joe Scott Morgan. Joining me on the scene, Masa Saidi, investigative reporter for WFLA-TV. And our special guest, in addition to Masa, Matt Hogan. You can find him on Insta at Castaway underscore 0187, who is at this moment hiking the Appalachian Trail. And special guest joining us from the swamp, Chris Adams, also known as, quote, Turtle Man. You can find him on Facebook, Living Wild, and on TikTok, also at Georgia Turtle Man. Okay, first to you, Chris Adams. Thank you for being with us, Chris. It's my understanding that in a swamp, such as the one you're familiar with, miles away from the Carleton Reserve, that there really is no fresh water.

You and I have been out on the swamp together for an extended period of time. I was recounting the other day how within the first 15 minutes, we saw about 30 to 40 gators. Oh, yes, ma'am. Not their whole bodies, just their eyes poking up. I did not see one suggestion of fresh water the entire time we were out on the swamp. Chris? Now, the thing about our water in Okefenokee is a little different. It's filled with a lot of tannic acids.

And in a pinch, if you needed to drink it, you probably could. The problem down in Florida where Brian is probably at is that you're dealing with muddy water, all sorts of contaminants in that water, not to mention all the wildlife living around there. And one, if he's in that swamp, he's going to get sloppy at some point. You can't just go into a swamp and expect to stay hidden for any amount of time unless you're good at it. Being familiar with a place is one thing, but knowing a place is a completely different story. I find that very interesting, Chris Adams, aka Turtle Man. What do you mean by that? You're bound to leave print somewhere. Like I do hog hunting up

on the Okmulgee River here in Georgia. And when I'm going through the swamps, it's hard not to make a footprint. It's hard not to bend a branch or break a branch as you're walking through practical jungle. And that's not much different than the terrain that Brian is possibly in down there in Florida. The swamps between here and there are not too dissimilar. They all have pretty much the same wildlife, pretty much the same flora. And, you know, people have this misconception that a swamp is just naturally a water body. It's made up of many different things. You've got boggy areas and shrub bays and bogs. You've got pine islands and

things in there. So there are places people could hide if they had a mind to, but they would have to know that terrain like the back of their hand. See, like my family has lived in this part of Georgia on the Satilla River for 180 years. They know swamps. There's no doubt about it. They've made their living in them. And, of course, back during Prohibition when moonshining was a thing, a lot of that was done down here. Yeah, because what lawman is going to go into the swamp looking for a steal? You're absolutely correct.

With me, Chris Adams, who is at this moment on a swamp. I want to follow up with everything you just said because it reminds me, Chris Adams, who is at this moment on a swamp. I want to follow up with everything you just said, because it reminds me, Chris Adams, of something I've heard Joe Scott Morgan say many, many times. It's one of his main tenets in forensics and finding the truth in a criminal matter. And that is that there is no action without a reaction. There is no movement, no crime without leaving a trace. What do you make of what he just said, Joe Scott Morgan? Oh boy, this is what I think. In a nutshell, Joe Scott, don't start preaching. A nutshell. I won't. I'm very excited though. I got to tell you, Nancy, the fact that they found this fresh site, the first thing that I thought of, first thing that I thought of, if he's indwelling in that area, he has had to create waste.

And I don't just mean throwing paper away or cans. I'm talking about feces. And with that, if he dug a hole, he deposited feces, He may have covered it and it's there. Think back to what the FBI did that second trip to the laundry home. They walked in. Remember, everybody's talking about the brown bag and the bloodhounds and all that. There's one image of one of those agents walking in. They've got two white boxes under their arm. I think those were buccal mucosal DNA swab boxes. They probably swabbed mom and dad's mouth. Now, why do you talk like that? Why do you even say that? You know, everybody doesn't know what a buccal swab is for Pete's sake. Well, what you do, what we do is we

swab the inside of the mouth. With a, basically a Q-tip. Don't make it sound so scientific. And you believe they got a buccal swab for what? I think that they very well might have because, you know, this guy is not a registered sex emitter. He's not on, they don't have like necessarily true DNA sample on him, but they could have harvested from the

parents their DNA. Okay. And then they're going to compare it to what they're finding. Especially the mother with mitochondrial DNA. OK, hold on, Joe Scott, I see where you're headed. Let me go straight out to Masa Saidi, investigative reporter joining us from WFLA there in Florida. Tell me about this so-called fresh campsite. And we're getting that from a source close to the Laundrie family.

What do you know, Masa? OK, so late last night, CNN reported that according to a source close to the Laundrie family, as you said, the law enforcement says they found a fresh traces of a campsite in the reserve. Now, we have not been able to confirm this independently, but we do know that Chris Laundrie was asked to assist law enforcement in their search for Brian at the reserve. That was information we got from the attorney yesterday. And right now I'm texting with the attorney because Chris Laundrie just left the house this morning and we asked that he go to the reserve as it's happening. And it appears that that might be happening. I'm texting with the attorney right now.

Okay, that really illuminated a lot for me. Masha Saidi joining us from WFLA. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Out to the founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl. Hold on. All of this happening with the parents saying, oh, now we're going to go search. We haven't been allowed to in the past.

Blah, blah, blah. What about this? What if that source is correct, traces of campsite have been found, and they need the father or the mother to come identify an object. We know Gabby Petito was first identified when her stepfather saw her sweatshirt and he knew immediately that's Gabby's. What if they found an object out there and they're asking the father to identify an object? What do you make of that? Well, one thing I truly believe is he's either got some type of hammock or enu where he is off the ground. He's not staying wet. I mean,

his thoughts can't be saturated for 23 days. I mean, the skin will be coming off. So what's interesting to me are two things. One, in the last day, the family has not only changed the timeline, they've changed the location. So that tells me they know law enforcement is close. The other thing, again, I'm just going to keep, you know. Now, let me just clarify something. Aren't you the one and you too, Joe Scott Morgan, that said you guys thought he was up in the Appalachian Trail. Well, let me go back. If you remember.

And you both said Appalachian. And I said no Appalachian. I can't believe he could get 500 miles. Oh, yeah, that. We've all discarded that. That's not a choice, Joe Scott. Go ahead, Cheryl. It was my choice.

She did vote. That's not a choice, Joe Scott. Go ahead, Cheryl. It was not a choice. I haven't started anything. From day one, I compared him to Eric Robert Rudolph. From day one, I said he will go somewhere he's familiar with, that he feels comfortable. There are two places, Florida being one, but the other is the Appalachian Trail. Here's another thing, Nancy. Hang on, this is important. When we first heard about Bill Cosby, everybody's like, oh, I can't believe that.

Not, you know, Bill Cosby. I didn't say that. Then you've got 14 women come forward. Then you've got 27 women come forward. If you have two dozen people giving you a similar area, a similar sighting, a similar interaction, you can't ignore it. So, again, I think it's important that, you know, you had me be there live. I think it's important we're talking about it. But, again, you have different groups doing different jobs.

You've got one in the reserve, one doing the Appalachian Trail, one doing the phone, one doing the crime scene in Wyoming. Everybody should be looking for this guy. Okay, let me clarify something, or let me have you clarify, Cheryl. You said that two things have changed. The parents changed the timeline, which they did. They are now saying Brian Laundrie left a day earlier and that they forgot and that the FBI communication jogged their memory.

What it was was where that Ford Mustang was parked and the day it was parked is what jogged their memory. But now you're saying they also are changing the location. In a nutshell, Cheryl, explain. They originally said he went to the Carlton Reserve. Now they're saying his car was 17 miles away at another park that it connects to the Colton Reserve eventually. The Myakouchi?

Exactly right. But again, that ain't the same thing you've been telling people. No, it's not. It's like saying Jackie left her car at Target and then going, oh, no, it was at Saks Fifth Avenue. That's a whole nother can of worms. And that's not a mistake they would have made unintentionally. And let me say one more thing. They're now saying that, oh, we have been allowed to search. You could have searched for him from the 13th to the 17th and you didn't. So you,

you yourself decided not to search for him from the 13th to the 17th when you finally reported. Very quickly, let's play our cut to3, our friends at News Nation Now. It has been quiet at the Carlton Reserve lately, but not today. Dozens of FBI agents back in the swamp looking for any sign of Brian Laundrie. Why this spot and why the renewed attention here today? The FBI won't comment. So they're going to stop in this area. And again, we don't know why or what they're doing, but we're looking.

And today at the over 24,000 acre swamp, this appeared, a drone, but not like the ones we're used to seeing. It's almost like a mini plane. We know that the activity has increased in Carleton Reserve. Why? I want to circle back in Matt Hogan, who is at this moment hiking the Appalachian Shrill. I'm going to get to you in just one moment, but we are talking about the Carleton Reserve right now. Chris Adams joining me, a swamp survival expert on Facebook. He's at Living Wild TikTok at Georgia Turtle Man. Okay, you heard Cheryl McCollum talking about he would have to have, let's just say, a hammock or some sort of an apparatus where he's not on the wet earth in the swamp. Could you tell me, Chris Adams, what this guy needs to survive in Carleton Reserve? How is he doing it? Well, this is coming from someone who literally camps

in a bedroll with a wool blanket, and that's about it. But, you know, these people that go out there on these wilderness hikes. Hold on, Chris. I'm just learning that Fox has confirmed Laundrie Dad just entered Carleton Reserve. So pass that on. Brian Laundrie's father has just entered Carleton Reserve. Now, we don't need him for DNA. He's there for something else. Either he's really there searching or they're having him identify something. That would be my speculation. Okay, back to you, Chris Adams. How's he surviving? If he's in Corralton Reserve, how's he doing it? Well, to run off of that, if they're carrying his dad down in there to try and identify something or verify something, you know, someone who's been in the swamp for 20-something days, let's just say he's been in there the entire time, he's going to get sloppy after a while.

He's not made for that environment. Nobody is made for that environment. And those who are still have found a hard time, as I was mentioning earlier, leaving, you know, the ground untouched or a branch not broken. But he's going to get sloppy after a while. Something's going to be dropped somewhere. Something's going to be left behind because he's going to feel like it's too much weight. Or, you know, if you're trying to survive out there, any extra amount of weight you're carrying on you makes it much harder to go through that dense vegetation. And also just the sheer aggravation of it. It's mental aggravation. But how is he physically doing it?

When you've camped in the swamp, which you have done, how do you do it? Well, normal folks are going to carry some amount of food in there with them. Someone like myself, if they have even a decent amount of knowledge, they might know some edible plants. But the problem is, this time of year in Florida, you're starting to run slim on your edible plants down there. You might have persimmons, which have a great amount of vitamin C in them, if you can find them. You can fish. Someone could probably make a fish gig out of a piece of river

cane or a long limb of some kind, sharpen it to the end. But it's going to be hard. It's going to be tough on a person. There's no doubt about that. So if he's doing it, he's doing it by the skin of his teeth, you know. Other than leaving behind a feces trail, what else would cops be looking for, Chris? Oh, Lord, if he's slogging through swamp down there, there ought to be sign ample everywhere unless the man knows what he's doing. Anything from broken branches about shoulder high to a person, he's not breaking anything off low unless he's going through the tall berries or blackberries, because then you'll definitely leave trail signs. If you look at where animals have walked through the woods, be it deer or rabbit, you're going to have a game trail somewhere.

He's not just going through that place without leaving a trail somewhere. And that, that's what would be what we would need to be looking for basically. He's not just going through that place without leaving a trail somewhere. And that's what we would need to be looking for, basically. But it seems to me, Chris Adams, you're the swamp expert, that the FBI, if they don't have one, would need a swamp expert to notice those signs. Things that, for instance, you would notice that I would not notice. Yes, ma'am. And that was going to be another comment I made. You know, you can go over a swamp like that with a fine-tooth comb, and you're still going to miss a stump hole or some grove of trees.

You're not going to be able to search 24,000 or 25,000 acres accurately. And that's not discrediting the FBI or anyone like that. I have no experience in that. What I can say is you would definitely need to employ someone who knows that area like the back of their hand. And that goes for anyone who's grown up around swamps or dense wilderness areas. You've got to have a local who knows that place. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Back to Masa Saidi, joining me, investigative reporter with WFLA. I want to get to the truth of something, Masossa, and I think you're my best bet. We learned from the Laundrie lawyer that Chris Laundrie was asked to assist law enforcement in their search at the preserve today. They also say this lawyer, since the preserve has been closed to the public, Chris has not been able to look for Brian. He also claims that cops had to, quote, postpone or halt Laundrie's participation. Now, Northport Police says that's not true,

that they never stopped the father or the mother from looking. What's the truth of it? Okay, so the attorney texted that after saying that Chris Laundrie was asked to assist, as you just read, he said, unfortunately, this was yesterday, North Port Police had to postpone Chris's involvement. That's what he said yesterday. Now, we reached out to North Port Police asking, hey, did you postpone the involvement yesterday? Why wasn't the Laundrie father allowed to go to the Carlton Reserve yesterday? And the North Port police sent us this. They said, quote, the FBI is the lead. North Port police would not be making these decisions and actions. The FBI would have to answer that if that was true.

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, Cheryl McCollum, he was missing, Laundrie was missing for a number of days before the FBI got involved. Correct. And Nancy, if you remember a week ago, I pointed out that dad's truck had that sandy white splash on it. If you look at the FBI truck out there in the reserve, they've got the same splash. So it would appear to me he went somewhere off the road. Now, back to you, Saida, Masa Saida, could you tell me this? Laundrie's car was, well, it's his parents' car. The Ford Mustang was found 16 miles from the Carleton Reserve. That's not where the Carleton Reserve is.

That's the Myakatchee Park. What do we know and what does that mean? Yeah, so we got a redacted police report yesterday about the abandoned Mustang. And according to that report, we can place that Mustang on September 14th around 2.42 p.m. at 6968 Ryerson Road. And it's that other park that you just mentioned. And according to a Google search, that's about 17 miles away from the Carleton Reserve.

Some outlets are reporting that the two parks are connected via a trail. But I'm trying to confirm that on Google Maps right now. Okay. What does that mean to you, Cheryl McCollum? Again, it means to me we were told the wrong date. We were told the wrong location. So if law enforcement has been focused on one area for a period of 20 days, maybe they're in the right area. Maybe they're not. maybe this is a red herring maybe it's not but it's difficult for me to believe you've got a future daughter-in-law that has gone missing and her parents are calling you non-stop they are leaving messages they are frantic

they're texting you and then a detective starts to call you about the 11th to say, hey, have you seen her? Then the police come to your house and go, hey, isn't this her van? Where's your son? And this whole time that you're not picture perfect of when you last saw him and what was going on. I just find that extraordinarily difficult to believe. Let's go straight out to Dale Carson, high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville and former FBI agent at DaleCarsonLaw.com. Okay, Dale Carson, jump in. Well, look, they're going to, if they found a site and they're reasonably sure that this fellow Landry was there, they'll just take a scent dog and determine whether or not that's true. So the problem is we don't have enough information right now to know whether or not that site is actually connected to him. Now, it's been closed

by law enforcement for a number of weeks, but that doesn't mean somebody else hasn't been in there camping because you can't put a perimeter up around that entire preserve. Okay, so to you, Chris Adams, you're saying that there, I believe you said, pine islands, for instance, in Okefenokee, that there are places to camp within the Carleton Reserve? Having never been on the Carleton Reserve down there, I'm just going from what I'm pretty familiar with. There's got to be a high, dry place in that swamp. Even on most of your river swamps you're going to

find a ridge of land or a rise in that floodplain area where you could at least get up and have a dry moment to yourself when going through that type of terrain well that's where the campsites are yeah go ahead dale that's where the campsites are because i'm involved in swamps here in Florida. And constantly we would do searches through those areas formally. You find high ground all over the place and that's where people camp. That's where they set up moonshine stills. That's where, and aside from that, you've got to build an elevated platform if you know anything about living. Can we just leave moonshine out of this?

Okay. No more with the stills. But I hear you, Dale Carson. I hear you, Chris Adams. Yes, there's a place for him to camp if he was so inclined. The other alternative that keeps cropping up is the Appalachian Trail. We know he's camped there before. We know he's hiked there for several months and survived.

Joining me right now on the Appalachian Trail is trail hiker, Castaway underscore 0187, Matt Hogan. Matt, thank you for being with us and waiting. I know you are hiking at this moment, going up the Appalachian Trail. How hard would it be to hide out, say, 20 feet, 20 yards off the trail and go unspotted? It is absolutely impossible. Just the four or five days that we've been out here, it's been raining nonstop. So if you don't have any type of gear to sleep in, you don't have a tank or a sleeping bag,

the temperature is probably about 54 at night. gear to sleep in. You don't have a tank or a sleeping bag. The temperature is probably about 54 at night, so the likelihood of you surviving is slim to none, especially if you don't have any experience out in the woods. The likelihood of him being on trail is slim to none, but hence, because he's going to want to resurface and try to at least get some food. Water

is very scarce, especially if you don't know how to filter your water. So, I'd say the chances of him, if he is out here and surviving, is very slim. Okay, hold on Matt Hogan. Matt Hogan, Castaway underscore 0187 and Chris Adams with me

at Georgia Turtle Man, a swamp expert and an Appalachian Trail expert. Let me go to Dr. Angela Arnold. I think we need to shrink. Psychiatrist joining me out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Dr. Angie, come on. This guy might have gone. I mean, Boy Scouts go. I've even done the Appalachian Trail for Pete's sake. Not far, not far at all. But going on the Appalachian Trail for three weeks is a lot in the summertime with your friends

and your backpack full of food and your campfire. It's a lot different than on the run from the law, trying not to build a fire and sitting there in the rain with nothing to eat. Okay. It's a lot different from being out in the swamp trying to survive. How do I know that this isn't just some suburban mama's boy who won't hold a job, who lives at home with his parents, who doesn't have his own car, and he goes hiking. He's a survivalist. There's a big difference in somebody like Matt Hogan or Chris Adams that can literally go out in the wild and

live and somebody that plays at it. That's why we have houses. No offense, Chris Adams and Matt Hogan. That's why we have blankets and houses and rugs and stoves and grocery stores. So we don't have to do that. So what's the likelihood of a weekend warrior surviving in these conditions you're hearing from Matt Hogan and Chris Adams? I think the likelihood is zero to none. Nancy, I have known of people who have prepared for months to do something like this.

Meanwhile, for the past several months, he's been living in a cushy van, eating in restaurants. He is not prepared for this. Living off his girlfriend's debit card. Exactly. And I think it's such a distraction because people are like, oh, maybe he is on the Appalachian Trail. He can't survive on the Appalachian Trail. My big question is, where is this guy finding water to drink? I mean, lack of water will kill you before lack of food will. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Hey, Nancy. Yeah, just jump in. I want to hear your thoughts. Is that Masa Saidi or Cheryl McCollum? Cheryl McCollum. Okay. How did I know that? Every expert you have had so far has said there's no way he can survive in the swamp. There's no way he can survive on the Appalachian Trail.

He has been successful for 24 days. He has eluded the FBI. He's eluded the marshals. He's eluded his parents, allegedly. He's eluded Dog the Bounty Hunter. He's eluded the canines. He's eluded, you know, YouTubers and TikToks and the media and the general public. He has been successful for dadgum near a month. Well, you're going under the assumption that he's in one of those two places. I'm not. That's what I was about to say was he could be somewhere else entirely. That's my point.

He's been successful. Walk her down at some house. Okay, so let's go with that, Chris Adams. Everybody, if you have a thought, please jump in. Chris Adams, you just said he could be somewhere else. Let's talk about that. So we know he went camping at DeSoto Park in Florida with his parents. While his girlfriend is lying decomposing out in Wyoming, they go for a camping trip.

Not judging, just analyzing. So where could he go from there, Chris Adams? Just theorizing a bit. You know, he could have, before everyone was looking for him, hopped a ride to some other state, to some other town. He could be in an entirely different part of the state altogether. We wouldn't know it. You know, there's plenty of people out there looking for someone with, I believe it's a neck tattoo. Is that right? I believe it is. He's got a couple of tattoos. You're right. Go ahead.

I mean, I can show you plenty of people who look very similar to the guy just around my hometown, much less, I mean, all over the country. It's nothing for someone who probably isn't as informed from the news or what they're seeing online to pick up this guy who might need a ride and carry him somewhere else and not know. I mean, it's still possible in this day and time. He could be in another end of the country. Well, I have to agree with Adams. I have to agree with Adams. Masa Saidi, before there was a manhunt, in those days that the parents were covering for him, and remember, you know, we've got a window now of several days' leave. We think about four days' leave. He've got a window now of several days lead. We think about

four days lead. He's ghosted us now for 24 days. During that original time, Masa, I mean, if it were me and I was going on the run and I couldn't leave the country, I would do exactly what Chris Adams just said. I would get as far away from where they're going to look for me as I could by any means I could. And that would be hitching unless somebody got him a vehicle. What about it, Masa? Well, we know that I was at the scene yesterday. I was trying to talk to as many neighbors as possible. And we know that on September 11th is when the neighbors spotted the police there.

That's when they took the van out. So by September 11th, obviously, Northport police were on this. They were looking into this. How aggressively, how much were they monitoring the home? We don't know. But yeah, like you said, Nancy, on September 13th, that is what we are being told now by the Laundrie family attorney. That's when he left and he wasn't reported missing for four days now, not three days. So, yeah, he had four days. I mean, think about it. Think about it.

Four days of hitching. How far could he get, Joe Scott? Listen, I got to tell you, you know, one of the things that Masa had said earlier, we need to keep this in mind. She said that this information about the campsite being fresh had not been confirmed yet. They're still waiting on that. That doesn't mean he could not have been there at some point in time. I've held that they could have spirited him to some local location and have had him, quote unquote, cool his heels until he can advance to another maybe population center. Again, I'm thinking

homeless populations. You can blend in. They're not watching the news. You live under a bridge. You never know. Living under a bridge like a troll. That is not where he is. Okay. I want to go back to Matt Hogan, who is on the Appalachian Trail right now. Matt, earlier you told me nobody could, I mean, unless you're a real pro, could make it on the Appalachian Trail for any extended period of time. And I don't know if you remember the name, Matt Hogan. Cheryl and I like to talk about it a lot because this guy affected our lives. This guy, Eric Rudolph, set a bomb that threw off shrapnel that hit my investigator that I worked with one-on-one for 10 years. He managed to live, what was it, three years, Cheryl, on the Appalachian Trail?

He lived seven in the Nantahala Park. Oh, dear Lord. But you have to have the knowledge to be able to know what you can eat, what type of plants to stay away from that will give you any type of rashes that you can't take care of on the trail if you don't have the proper medications. And water temperature is a big thing, especially right now during the season right now because it drops to the 50s at night. So if he doesn't have the proper winter apparel, you know, he's going to freeze to death. And the water is the biggest thing, you know.

If you don't have a water source, the likelihood of you surviving even a week is slim to none. Well, Matt Hogan, Cheryl McCollum, who was on the Appalachian Trail about 48 hours ago reporting from there, says that 15 feet, 15 yards off the trail, nobody on the trail would even see you. No, absolutely not. The density is very thick, and especially the fog has been really thick all day because of the rain up here and the elevation. So the fog sits very, very thick through the trees. So you being able to see anybody is definitely very hard. But like I said, even if he goes 30 yards off trail um the like of him surviving if he doesn't

have any tents he doesn't have any type of outdoor wear um he's not going to survive in this playing hide and seek is one thing but remaining hidden is a completely different thing altogether you can hide behind a tree or in a thicket of shrubs and go unseen for a few hours. But when you go to get hungry and have to go and make a campsite somewhere, keep yourself warm, keep the insects off of you, you know, you're playing a dangerous game then if you don't have a know-how. And I think, if I might add, one other thing that we're not taking into consideration is let's say he's in a swamp or let's say he's in a wilderness like in North Georgia or anywhere along the Appalachian Mountains there. If he gets cut and he gets in a puddle of water or something and gets bacteria, we're not thinking about his medical needs here.

Eventually, he is going to run into a bush or get cut along the foot or the ankle or the arm. He's going to have a arm, he's going to have a problem. He's going to have to doctor it himself. After a while of going through, we'll just use my neck of the woods as well, you're going to get cut up. And if you're not careful, you can get sick from certain things out there. Just something to keep in mind.

Cheryl McCollum, listen, do you hear what Chris Adams and Matt Hogan is saying. Listen, do you think his mother would let him go off and live this long in a swamp or in the Appalachian Trail? His mama has a good idea where he is. She's had a good idea where he is. Well, I know that, but do you think they would pack him off to

Carleton Reserve or Appalachian? I think if you said, hey, do you want the Appalachian Trail or Rikers Island? There ain't no question where I'd rather my child be. Okay, well, that's a good point. I didn't think about it like that. Okay, go ahead, Dale, jump in. You know, look, he came back from Moab and met with the family, right?

And then he flew back, and he was with the gal, and presumably, based on the evidence we have, he's somewhat familiar with her death. Now, in that interval, they could have very easily located a place for him to stay that has table, refrigerator, and food deliveries. He doesn't have to be in the woods. There's an assumption based on his history that he's in the woods, but if that family's got money, they can very easily put him up in a conventional house somewhere. It would only be a matter of time before he's traced there through a money trail. I mean, unless they rented it for a year,

any electronic transaction is going to be scrutinized. But we've got to think beyond Carleton Reserve, and we've got to think beyond Appalachian Trail. We have to look at the timeline and we have to look at, for instance, that white truck. Dennis Davies said he saw Brian Laundrie driving. Not necessarily that truck, but that truck included. Does he have access to a vehicle? Is he doing what he does best?

Camping in a vehicle. It's not really camping, but it's going from place to place. The only thing is, even when you go to an RV camp or campground, somebody lets you in. Would they identify him or is he doing dispersed camping out beyond a normal campground out in the wild? That's what he does. Where is Brian Laundrie? And Dale Carson said earlier, and I think he's right, we don't know enough.

For instance, Joe Scott, when we hear there's a fresh campsite or evidence of a fresh campsite. Does that mean, do they say, Masha, do they say fresh evidence of a campsite or evidence of a fresh campsite? I'm pulling it up right now. Because that's actually pretty important. You know, words matter. Fresh traces of a campsite according to Cuomo on CNN. So does that mean they're just finding an old campsite? Or does it mean they've just found evidence of a recent campsite? Go ahead, Cheryl. I think it's important to point out that near Gabby's body was a fire ring.

Somebody had made some type of fire in close proximity to her death. When we go camping, my brother-in-law will make a fire a certain way. It's very different than the way Walt will do it, and that's very different than the way Huck will do it. My brother-in-law digs out a ring and then puts rocks down low in the ground. Walt puts them two-stack, whereas Huck just puts them straight on the ground in a ring. So I can tell from a distance who made it. That's another thing.

If the fire, if there was a campfire in the reserve, if it was built similar to the one in Wyoming, that could be another connection. That's a very valid point right there, if I might add. Chris Adams, you're right again. Okay, Matt Hogan on the Appalachian Trail. For Pete's sake, man, keep your eyes open. Chris Adams, Dale Carson, Dr. Angie, Cheryl McCollum, Joe Scott Morgan, my society, and you, our listeners and our viewers.

Thank you for being with us today as the search goes on. And let's not forget what this is really all about. This is about Gabby Petito and her murder, her homicide. Let justice be done. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.