Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - TAMMY DAYBELL 'ASLEEP' FROTHS 'PINK FOAM' FROM MOUTH, INSIDER INSISTS IT WAS MURDER, SECRET AUTOPSY

Episode Date: February 9, 2021

Tammy Daybell's autopsy is complete. The former wife of Chad Daybell died in her sleep while training for a marathon. In fact, Daybell died just two weeks before Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell wed, and just a month before the Vallow children disappeared. No autopsy was performed at the time of her death since comments made by Chad Daybell lead authorities to rule her death as natural causes, and the family did not want an autopsy done.Joining Nancy Grace today: Julie Rowe - Friend of Tammy Daybell, Author, Podcaster: "The Julie Rowe Show", julieroweprepare.com, Ashley Wilcott - Judge and Trial Attorney, Anchor at Court TV,  www.ashleywillcott.com, Twitter: @WillcottAshley  Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta, GA www.angelaarnoldmd.com  Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet" featured on "Poisonous Liaisons" on True Crime Network Eric Grossarth - Reporter, East Idaho News dot com, Instagram/Twitter: @EricGrossarth Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Cult mom Lori Vallow and her fifth husband, Chad Daybell, still behind bars. We know about the two children that were killed. The children, JJ entirely belonging to cult mom Lori Vallow and buried in the backyard of her brand new hubby cult leader Chad Daybell. But what about Tammy Daybell, a beautiful, healthy woman, the mother of his children, his wife, Chad Daybell, insisted no autopsy be done when she died in her sleep. In the last hours, we learned that the autopsy on Tammy Daybell has been completed. Take a listen to this. After months and months of waiting for the news on if Tammy Daybell's autopsy is concluded, we have some news to report.

It is done according to the Fremont County Sheriff's Office. Sheriff Len Humphreys sent out a news release saying that his office received it yesterday from the Utah Medical Examiner's Office, but Humphreys did not indicate what the autopsy shows. We don't know if the cause of death has been changed from natural causes to something else. What we do know is the case, which has been with the Idaho Attorney General's Office since last April, is now going back to Fremont County. You're hearing our friend Nate Eaton at the EastIdahoNews.com with me, an all-star panel to make sense of seemingly a nonsensical situation.

Ashley Wilcott, judge, trial lawyer, anchor of Court TV at AshleyWilcott.com. Renowned psychiatrist joining us from the Atlanta area, Dr. Angela Arnold at AngelaArnoldMD.com. Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University. Author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Star of a new hit series on the True Crime Network, Poisonous Liaisons. Death investigator, Joseph Scott Morgan. Eric Grossarth, crack reporter with the EastIdahoNews.com. He's been on the case from the very beginning.

And special guest joining me right now, a very dear friend of Tammy Daybell's author, podcaster of The Julie Rowe Show. And you can find her at JulieRowePrepare.com. Julie Rowe, what was your reaction when you heard that Tammy Daybell's autopsy was complete? We've been waiting a long time. Right. Sincere gratitude. I'm ready for this case to be put to justice. I'm ready for Chad and Lori to be convicted of murder.

I have said I've probably done about 100 hours of media in the last year, and I've said for months and months that I believe and now know in my heart that Chad Daybell is guilty. I believe he conspired with Lori and Alex Cox to murder the children as well as Tammy Daybell and I want justice. Again as of right now Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow have both pled not guilty in anything relating to the deaths of the children, JJ and Tylee, and they have not yet been charged with anything as it relates to Tammy Daybell. But I find it really difficult to accept, Julie Rowe, that Tammy Daybell, who's healthy as a horse, gorgeous lady, well-loved in the community, I believe she worked in the local library for a period of time. Just training for a marathon, just dies in her sleep.

And then two weeks later, Chad Daybell marries cult mom Lori Vallow. That's just quite the coincidence, isn't it, Julie? Yes, and it makes me sick to my stomach. I had several clues right away within the first 24 hours. You know, when you have false beliefs about somebody, it's hard to say that I have had to wake up to the truth of this along with, you know, millions of others. But I want justice. And whether the autopsy comes out that there was poisoning or not, I believe and have said for months and months, Chad Dayville is guilty. Julie, you said that you had several clues. What are they? Well, using my visionary gifts as well as the gift of hearing that I have from the other side of the veil and clairvoyant,

I began initially to have visits from Tammy Daybell. Once they unveiled her on the other side of the veil, they gave her a big welcoming home party. And then they kind of unveiled her to what was going on on Earth and what actually happened to her. And then she actually came to visit me several times as the guardian angels from the other side to start giving me information about what had actually occurred in the case. And what do you believe happened? I believe that they conspired to murder her, some kind of poison. I believe that Chad has poisoned people in past lives. This has been something that has been of controversy with

Melanie Gibb and others talking about multiple verbations. I stand by that. I remember past lives. In fact, they started to unveil me to past lives. I've had with Chad Daybell, and I have been poisoned by him in a past life as well. And when they started to put that together for me, I started to realize that we were dealing with a mass murderer. You know, I'm trying to think about evidence that can actually be introduced at trial. Can I ask you this, Julie? I could give a character witness. True.

Julie, what was the nature of the relationship between Chad Daybell and his wife, now dead, Tammy? I thought it was loving. That's what he led me to believe. I picked up on body language between them. And when I did sessions for him and he confided, quote unquote, you know, some difficulties they were having in their marriage. I knew that Tammy was on antidepressants. I learned that through a couple of his children, as well as Chad directly and Tammy directly. I could see there was tension, but I thought it was loving. You know, everybody has difficulties in their marriage and they'd been married close to 30 years so but I knew that they had some difficulties in their relationship I just figured they're like everybody else you know what kind of difficulties were they having

Julie I know that Chad was controlling to both his kids and a Tammy I watched that over the course of the years but he absolutely you know she absolutely believed in his gifts as do his kids and a Tammy. I watched that over the course of the years. But he absolutely, you know, she absolutely believed in his gifts, as do his kids. And I believe there was brainwashing. What did you observe that appeared to be controlling to you? Using his quote unquote gifts to try to manipulate and control by coercing and decision making for him to receive the outcomes he wanted for his wife and children to do things the way he wanted them to be. Like what? Like his daughter Emma not dating certain people and telling her who her future husband looked like, which did not match the guy she ended up dating and marrying. When you say he was controlling with Tammy in their everyday life, did he control, for

instance, what she wore, what she did, where she worked, what they had for dinner? What would he control? I don't know those details. I did not spend extended periods of time with them. I went to their home once every few months for a couple hours, sat in the living room. That was about it. Went to dinner, you know, half a dozen times. How did they interact with each other?

Did they seem loving? They always sat on the couch across from me. I would be in another chair, another couch across the room. He would sit by her, put his arm around her or hold her hand. I always thought it was loving. I guess in reflection, I could see some control there. He never really let me talk to her without him in the room. How did you find out they had tension? I could just pick up on it. I'm an empath and I could feel it. To Eric Grosser,

joining us from eastidahonews.com. What took so long with the autopsy, and what, if anything, have we learned since it has been completed? You know, like we've learned, December 11, 2019, they exhumed Tammy Daybell's body, had her out of the ground, had her back in really quick, and were running tests on her body. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Eric, you just kind of glided over that. Exhumed her body.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Eric Grossarth, east, whoa, whoa. Eric, you just kind of glided over that. Exhumed her body. Correct me if I'm wrong. Eric Grossarth, EastIdahoNews.com. But when Tammy was found dead by her husband, Chad Daybell, who says he just woke up and she was lying next to him dead, that she went to sleep as normal, woke up dead. It was his decision not to perform an autopsy, and she was buried out of state. Is that right, Eric? Yeah, so they decided not to do the autopsy, and within a couple days, they took her body from Idaho down to Utah, where they were from down there by Springville, and had her buried there.

So there was no autopsy done. They just took her to the funeral home and bombed her and all of that. And it was really all just very quick. Julie, jump in. Yeah, sorry, Nancy, I got to interrupt. Sure. Also, having talked to Emma, his oldest daughter, on the phone the morning Tammy died, as well as another friend that lived down the street who was there the morning Tammy died, as well as another friend that lived down the street who was there the morning Tammy died. It was reported to me two different versions of where and how Chad actually

found her. But authorities claim he actually, she died at two in the morning or close to it. Chad claims he found her at 6 a.m. One report says he found her in bed dead. The other one I heard from Emma was that he found her on the floor, that she was foaming at the mouth and there was blood coming out of her mouth. Foaming at the mouth, blood coming out of her mouth. And that's according to the daughter? And the visual I had was she had blood coming out of her mouth, her nose and her ears, although no one's ever told me that. That is the visual I had. So Tammy's daughter, Emma, tells you that Tammy was found on the floor and there was foam

and blood coming out of her mouth. Correct. But the story Chad told to police, we believe, is that he found her next to him and there was no mention of blood or foam coming out of her mouth. I've heard a few different versions, yes. What, if anything, further did Emma tell you about the discovery of her mother? She told me she was terrified of her dad getting remarried. She started crying quite a lot when she said that. I asked her why, and she said, because my dad taught me about multiple verbations and I'm not okay with polygamy. At which point in time, I could see Chad through my third eye. I could see him standing, come over, walk to her.

And she got nervous and said, I've got to go. My dad's here. So when the dad showed up, she quit talking. Right. And I've never talked to Emma or any of the kids or Chad. I've never talked to the kids. Chad told his kids not to respond to my texts or phone calls. He does know some of my gifts, but not all of them. On October 1st, three weeks before Tammy

died, Chad Dable called me the first time since March of 2019. I questioned him on some of the visuals that I had related to basically seeing him bury bones in their pet cemetery and having a bonfire and he gave me a storyline of burying chickens and ducks and a goat that got caught in his fence. Well I didn't hear the last thing bury chickens and ducks and what? A goat that got caught in his fence. So he gave you that explanation. He didn't deny you've been burying bones. He gave you that explanation. Yes. I said to him, among other things,

so did you guys, like, have some chickens or ducks die or something? He laughed nervously with this awkward laugh he gets, and he goes, yeah. And I said, did you bury you bury him like in your pet cemetery and he said yeah and then he offered up oh and we had a neighbor's goat get caught in the fence I had to shoot and kill it and bury that too and then after that I had a visual what a goat and then after that I had a visual because I connected to his energy and I could see what was in his brain or at least some of it but I didn't have like a super clear connection. And I said, did you have some kind of bonfire? And he said,

yeah, I had to burn some leaves and sticks. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, in the last hours, the autopsy of Tammy Daybell, otherwise healthy, young, and vibrant, who died in her sleep, according to her husband, Chad, has been completed. What, if anything, does it reveal? Very curious that the findings of the autopsy have been kept secret thus far. Take a listen to our friends at KSL TV News. Tammy had allegedly died in her sleep.

They found her in bed. They didn't know the causes. Mandy was in shock. I talked to her the day before she died. She says during that last visit with Tammy, something felt off. And she seemed maybe kind of frustrated, and that wasn't typical for her. Things got stranger as Mandy and multiple friends tell KSL that Tammy's husband, Chad Daybell, refused to have an autopsy performed. With so many investigations now involving Chad, Mandy hopes to find closure for her friend.

I just can't help but think that I want to know what happened to Tammy. Joining me in All-Star panel, Eric Grossarth, reporter, EastIdahoNews.com, Joe Scott, Morgan Death Investigator, Dr. Angela Arnold, psychiatrist, Ashley Wilcott, judge, trial lawyer, and anchor at Court TV. Back to Julie Rowe, very close friend with Tammy Daybell and Chad Daybell. She's an author and a podcaster of The Julie Rowe Show, and you can find her at julieroweprepare.com. Julie, I'm just learning so much from you. I'm curious, did you have reason to believe that Chad Daybell was sleeping with cult mom Lori Vallow before Tammy died? Yes. In fact, I confronted him on it,

on his relationship of texting and emailing and phone calls as early as October, November, and December of 2018. I then confronted him again in February of 2019, which is when he completely cut me off. Told me that I really knew how to burn bridges and I didn't know him at all, that he was having marital issues and financial issues. And he was done communicating with me for the near foreseeing future. So he admitted to you he had marital problems. Correct. Well, I had already known it because I did some free client sessions for him. Did he reveal what his marital problems were?

He revealed what he claimed they were, yeah. What did he claim? Well, due to client privilege, I don't feel that I should broadcast that publicly, although I have shared it with police. Well, not with police, but with FBI. Okay. Do you believe the privilege exists even though you believe he killed his wife? Excuse me.

Can you repeat that? Do I believe what? You believe he killed his wife, but you think the counselor privilege still exists between the two of you? I believe we have an ongoing investigation. I'd like to withhold that until I'm a witness. I respect that. But you're telling me you did believe he was having sex with Lori Vallow before Tammy died? Yes. I got confirmation of that. This might sound weird to people. I got confirmation of that. I wondered all year in 2019 how involved they were, if there had been a physical relationship. Like I could see from a distance with my gifts that there had been some physical, but I could not see how much of an

attachment. I am able to see the energy fields, the auras, and the energy connections that people carry in their systems. And when I was on the phone with him on October 1st, it was then verified to me through those. When I asked him about an emotional affair he'd had with a woman before Lori, and I asked him if he was still in touch with her, his energy shifted and I saw Lori's energy body attached to Chad, which confirmed to me that they had had sexual relations. Isn't it true that Chad Daybell told at least one woman he was married to her in a previous life? He told several.

And then I believe that that would be a reason that he would then basically hit on the woman, saying, well, we were married before in another life, so why not? Right. Justify the adultery. Do you think Tammy Daybell had any idea what was going on? I know they were having tension about Lori Vallow specifically. I believe Tammy started to wake up to it in the summer of 2018, and that's about the last time I saw her. Chad kept me away from her purposefully.

Why do you believe she started, as you say, waking up? I think most women can tell when their husband is having relations with someone else or feelings with someone else. So how long has it been since you've been able to speak to any of Tammy's children? The last time I spoke to any of them was Emma Daybell on the morning of the Saturday after Tammy died. So Tammy died in the middle of the night. On a Friday night, I talked to Emma at 115 Mountain Standard Time for 40 minutes on that Saturday. Did she really believe her mom died of natural causes? My understanding through a friend of the family who lives down the street from Chad, I got confirmation, which is what basically God's been telling me for months and months and months is

that the Dayville children have mixed energy on it, although Emma calls her dad every day at the jail. To Dr. Angela Arnold, joining me, psychiatrist out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, I've prosecuted a lot of cases that were domestic in nature, typically where the man killed the wife. Children are often very divided. You'll have one child believe the dad committed the crime and the others refusing to acknowledge it. Why? I think it depends on the initial relationship that the children have with each one of the parents. They're typically, there's secrets in the family that are going on in different children or at different stages of development depending on their age.

And I believe that they can see things that are going on. And oftentimes a parent will confide in one of the children so that could also lead to that depending on the age of the child. So in my estimation and in my practice, it's always about how old the children are, which will determine the stage of development that they're in. And that helps to determine which parent they are going to be more attached to when something like this happens. To Ashley Wilcott joining me, judge, trial lawyer, anchor at Court TV. And you can find her at AshleyWilcott.com. That's with two Ts, Wilcott joining me, judge, trial lawyer, anchor at Court TV, and you can find her at AshleyWilcott.com.

That's with two Ts, Wilcott. Ashley, I think it also, of course, I'm just a trial lawyer, but I think it has a lot to do with the fact that they've already lost one parent, and they don't want to see the other parent get the death penalty or be put away for life. They may not verbalize that or think it through to its logical conclusion, but I do believe that is why many children, even adult children, do not, they cannot accept the father killed the mother. No, and let me just say this, Nancy, I see cases all the time where horrific things and trauma happen to children. Bottom line, what do they always want? They always want? They always want their parents.

They always either want to go home to their parent or have a relationship with their parents. So I would agree with you. And I think that what we sometimes forget, believe it or not, it's hard to imagine, is the power of forgiveness. And I'm not saying everybody forgives a parent for killing someone else or killing a mother, but I am saying you never know what goes on in the head of a child who bottom line wants the love of their parents back to julie rowe a friend of tammy daybell author podcaster on the julie rowe show at julieroweprepare.com why do you believe julie that the autopsy has taken so long to return?

Well, I think there's a number of reasons. I want to also state I have an Eyes Open channel on YouTube as well where we discuss some of this and some other things going on in the world that are directly tied to Chad Daybell and the Luciferians. I want to put that out there to the public. You can go to Eyes Open, my channel on YouTube as well. There are a number of reasons just on the psychological aspect of what's going on. Did you just say Luciferians?

Correct, Luciferians, those that follow Lucifer. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about the fact that just released Tammy Daybell's autopsy results. However, they're keeping it secret, which I'll circle back with you, Joe Scott, on why they would possibly be doing that. But Julie Rowe, you just taught me a term I did not know, Luciferianism? Luciferian. Basically, they follow Lucifer, the devil. They call them Luciferians. And they have an agenda on this planet to try to take over the planet.

It's not going to happen, but they're giving their best effort. And they put people like Chad Babel in positions of authority. They did it in spirit realm before they came here, and they're continuing both in spirit realm and other dimensions as well as on the surface of the earth. Julie, how does that relate to Tammy's death? Well, in some cases, we've got infiltration even within our government systems. Again, how does that relate to Tammy's death? We might have some that purposely delayed. We might have some people messing in the lab or in the FBI or police stations to try to slow this down. Or it could be a matter of waiting for toxicology results to come back and running different panels that aren't normally run to search for poisonous ingredients that aren't typically run

when a body is first taken to the morgue. And in this case, Tammy Daybell's body was not taken to the morgue. So there's the additional hurdle of trying to extract poisonous ingredients or compounds from a body or body tissue that has already been embalmed, which is a whole other layer of confusion for the medical examiner, which I'm going to get to you in just a moment, Joe Scott Morgan. I want to go back just very briefly on your 40-minute conversation with Chad and Tammy Daybell's daughter, Emma. And that is within 36 hours after Tammy Daybell has been discovered dead. Now, Emma, I believe, is married and living elsewhere. Is that right, Julie?

Emma Daybell is living in Chad Daybell's house. And my confirmation I received from multiple witnesses in the last week is that Chad's attorney now owns the house that Chad killed Tammy in, where the bodies have been buried, and that Emma, her husband, and her children are living in the house. Were they living there at the time Tammy died? No, they were living a few houses down. I was trying to get to those critical hours around Tammy's death. So Emma was not living there at that time. So I'm sure Emma went straight to the home as soon as she heard that her mom had died. Did she tell you how she learned her mom had passed away? If I remember correctly, her dad called her. But I could have that wrong.

I know that my friend received a phone call from them at 8.30 in the morning. And she went over there and brought them breakfast. And Chad already had the funeral planned out at 10.30, 11 o'clock in the morning. Okay, wait. According to, we think, and remember, Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow both have pled not guilty to anything relating to the two children, Tylee and JJ, and they have not been charged in any way as it relates to the death of Tammy Daybell. If he discovered her dead at 6 a.m. by 1030, he already had the whole funeral planned? Yes.

Curious. What was his demeanor when your friend arrived? She said he was nervous. In what way? A little bit jittery. He would go back and forth from calm to nervous. And she thought it was strange, but she thought maybe it was just because he was trying to adjust to the shock of what had happened. Immediately, she and her husband, who were there with her, went and got the family breakfast, came back.

And that's when they discovered that the funeral had already been planned. She asked the kids if they had taken part in planning it while she was gone and they said no, her dad had just already taken care of it. It's my understanding that at some point before Tammy died, Chad Daybell had stated that Tammy was getting in the way of his ultimate plan, his purpose in life? I believe so. I believe that's exactly what Chad felt. Did you go to the funeral? I did not. I lived in the Kansas City area at the time, but I was on business in Utah County. I was actually staying in a hotel in Provo, Utah the night before the funeral and

the night of the funeral. So that Monday night when they had the viewing in Springville, and I was told by my angels to go like nowhere near the funeral. It was a real wrestle for me because I didn't understand why at the time, but I was told to stay completely away. The next day was the funeral in Springville. I could have gone and then gotten on my flight. I even asked my angels if I should stay and rebook my flight and go to the Idaho funeral, and I was told, no, go home. I had a son coming home from an LDS church mission from California.

He'd been gone two years. They said, go home and welcome your son home. It is best you stay away. Have nothing to do with Chad and Lori. Guys, with me, a very dear friend of Tammy Daybell, Julie Rowe, author, podcaster of the Julie Rowe Show. And you can find her at julieroweprepare.com. I want to circle back now to Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator, has investigated well over, well, I'll just say thousands, thousands of homicide scenes and others. Joseph Scott Morgan, the hurdles that have been placed

before the medical examiner to determine anything about the cause of Tammy's death are immense. Explain. Yeah, they are immense, Nancy. And, you know, from Jump Street, the coroner in this case up in Fremont County shot the whole case in the foot. And let me tell you why.

My understanding is, is that there was no initial scene visit when Tammy was found deceased. Now, this is in the wake of finding, as you stated, a perfectly healthy woman, and her children have said she's got this frothy pink cone coming out of her mouth. For some reason, the coroner was not at the scene. The body was deemed by the police officers, who are completely unqualified to make this determination at the scene, that everything, quote-unquote, appeared natural. Her body was removed from that location to the funeral home at that point. Didn't send the body off for an autopsy. It's only after that point, at least allegedly, that the coroner showed up at the funeral home.

And here is the rub, Nancy. This would have been, first off, ideal circumstances, see the body in context. You have to see the body at the scene. That wasn't done, okay? But at least draw toxicology, draw blood, draw urine, draw vitreous from the body at the funeral home. Nancy, that wasn't done. So all of that is gone at this point because in order to transport a body across state lines, guess what you have to do? You have to embalm the body. Well, I think it would be very, very significant to you, Ashley Wilcott,

judge and trial lawyer, Court TV anchor, as Joe Scott is saying, to see where the body was, what condition it was in, we have heard nothing about blood and foam coming out of her mouth, which is very, very significant. Yeah, you've lost a lot of evidence. I completely agree with Joe Scott Morgan. And the reality is, you know this well, if you're an attorney and you're trying to prosecute this case, that evidence is gone. You cannot get it back. He disclosed, he being Chad, married to her at the time, that she was just coughing and then they went to sleep. So he's certainly not going to say, oh, there was blood and foam.

So the other part of this is now it's limited in terms of what it can show in the body. There is limited evidence, although it's good they did the autopsy, limited evidence that they can possibly glean from that autopsy. Nancy, one other thing I just have to say that's interesting to me, that was immediately, the autopsy was immediately turned over to the Fremont County Sheriff's Office. My question is, is that the typical way that it's done or is this unusual that they handed it over to the sheriff in this case? Well, as a matter of fact, there was a lot of confusion surrounding that as well. Take a listen to our friend Garner Mejia at KSL TV News. She smiled nonstop. She was out to do her very best and then some. Friends and co-workers say Tammy Deva was loved by everyone at Central Elementary School where she worked as a librarian. She was the most amazing person ever. You only meet somebody like her once in a lifetime. Mandy says

her 49-year-old friend was full of life, loved gardening, serving others and somehow even made time to train for a marathon. And now from KSL TV News, Garnam Ahia. The Fremont County coroner ruled her death of natural causes, according to her obituary. I actually went over to their house the morning Tammy died. And Chad, he didn't seem to have any emotion. It was very odd. Tammy was buried here in Springville, Utah, where seem to have any emotion. It was very odd. Tammy was buried here in Springville, Utah, where she and Chad grew up. Sergeant Spencer Cannon shares that under Utah law, a case like Tammy's would have been referred to the state medical examiner's office.

As the state code says, sudden death while in apparent good health is something that is automatically a case that is seen by the medical examiner in Utah. Cannon spent eight years as an investigator for the medical examiner. He says family members don't get a say on whether an autopsy is performed. We try to let them down easy, but we tell them, I mean, state law prevails here. And for the good of everybody, it has to. But in Idaho, there isn't a state examiner. How can that be that there's not a state examiner? Take a listen to our friend Spencer Blake at Phoenix 3 TV. Not long after Tammy Daybell died in her home in Salem, Idaho in mid-October,

the Fremont County Sheriff's Office received a call from a detective in Arizona. The decedent's going to be a Tamara Daybell? Oh, yes. I was the one that actually took that call. So why is someone from Arizona wanting to know? That's crazy. Yeah, isn't it funny how everything ties together? We just have some cases down here that got our attention with this Daybell. The cases he's talking about could include the attempted shooting of a relative of Lori Vallow Daybell in Gilbert in October, or the July shooting death of Lori's late husband Charles Vallow in Chandler. Lori married Tammy's husband, Chad Daybell, less than two weeks after Tammy died.

At the time, the sheriff's office investigated and said they found nothing suspicious. The coroner ruled the death was due to natural causes. The dispatcher explains to the Arizona detective it wasn't just the coroner who didn't want to press the investigation any further. It was not. It was the family as well. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. In the last hours, we have learned the autopsy report of Tammy Daybell is complete, but kept under wraps. To you, Joseph Scott Morgan, I've never heard of that. Why are they keeping the results of the autopsy secret? I can tell you precisely why they're doing it, because this is an ongoing criminal investigation. They have information that they do not want to disclose as of yet that is going to be, it's going to bear a tremendous amount of weight as this case moves forward. I suspect

that something has been found. They've had enough time to study this. So they're having to put all of this in context. And keep in mind, Nancy, this is not the Fremont County coroner that is in control of these results at this point in time. It's now, as was mentioned, it's now in the hands of the Utah State Medical Examiner who has turned it directly over to the sheriff. So the people in Fremont, as far as the coroner goes, they're not going to have any control over this. This is a ruling, a finding from the scientific community. This isn't just randomly saying, and this case just absolutely makes me furious as a death investigator. This isn't just somebody randomly saying, oh, well, you know, it was just a natural death.

Well, what in the hell do you mean by natural death? Prove to me that this is a natural death. Tell me, does she have any kind of heart ailments? Did she have cancer? No one has said anything like that. So scientifically, where are you basing that initial response on? Well, I can tell you the people in Utah have found something. I don't know what it is, but they're playing it close to the vest

and they're putting this into the hands of the prosecutor up in Fremont County. Guys, we're trying to determine why Tammy Daypill's autopsy is being kept a secret. This is one of the problems that the medical examiner was facing at the time. Did I hear correctly, Joe Scott Morgan, that they don't have a medical examiner in that jurisdiction? No, up in Utah, I'm sorry, forgive me, up in Idaho, those are county coroners that you have. Now they have a, in Boise, they do have very highly competent medical examiner who does autopsies and they will bring in from these smaller counties, which is actually what normally happens. Okay. But they didn't refer her body to Boise to be autopsied there. They just released her body. So in Utah, I mean, Nancy, for decades, the state of Utah did away with coroners a long, long time ago.

So they have a statewide medical examiner system there that's completely. So in Utah, you go before your body, if there's cause for an autopsy, goes to a medical examiner, which is an MD. Not so in Idaho where she died. Guys, take a listen to our cut number four, KSL TV News investigative reporter, Brittany Glass. Her body was exhumed on the morning of December 11th. We did it as confidential as we could,

that our parks workers ended up here on a Wednesday morning at 6 o'clock, lights on their tractors. Loved ones were not in attendance at her gravesite like they were just five months before at her funeral. But as Rod Oldroyd with the city of Springville explains, multiple witnesses were. County attorneys, the sheriff from Idaho, sheriff from Utah, coroner's assistance.

Tammy's body was taken to the Utah State Office of the Medical Examiner for an autopsy. To this day, if I thought of Tammy Daybell, it would be that she's smiling and she's happy. By 2.30 that afternoon, just eight hours later, Tammy's body was returned, once again underground in small-town Springville, back where so much of the couple's story began.

It's hard for me to imagine her with blood and foam coming out of her mouth and then smiling in hereafter. But what exactly would have been the training of someone in that jurisdiction? Take a listen to our Cut 26 KSL TV. County coroners serve four-year term elected positions and are only required to attend a coroner school and complete 24 hours of additional training every two years, according to state

statute. In rural communities like Fremont County, this is a part-time job. And resources are limited. For example, Fremont County, where Tammy died, has a budget of just over $37,000, including the coroner's salary. Neighboring Madison County listed about $20,000 for their budget. In comparison, Ada County, where Boise is located, has a budget of just over $3 million. So to you, Ashley Wilcott, we can't really blame the county coroner because all they have to do is go to coroner school and have 24 hours of training every two years. There's nothing to suggest that even if they thought they needed an autopsy, that the county coroner could have done it. Yeah, I agree with you. And you know, this is an issue,

and Joe Scott and I have talked about this all over the nation in different jurisdictions. Georgia is not that different in terms of sometimes the structure in the county versus in the lack of training. It all boils down to that, and it creates an issue when you need an autopsy like this. Nancy, I got to say, this is a question i would ask do you have set of car keys do you have full tank of gas do you have a pair of rubber gloves get in your car and go to the scene it don't cost a lot and at least examine the body in the bedroom it's not a matter of cost or even you know and people can say well well, they only get this brief coroner school. I'm talking about you've been elected to do a position. Go and do your job.

That's what it comes down to. If you've got something more important to do than deal with death in your county, there's a major problem. Go to the scene. I've got a question for you the body what difference would it make whether the body had been autopsied which it wasn't but it had been embalmed before it had been autopsied i'm five months past i'm going to keep this very brief all right in embalming and i'm sorry for being so graphic and embalming you're pushing through embalming fluid into the body. You're pushing out all of the body fluids. Anything that's going to tell you anything about the body in the immediate. There's no blood. There's no urine. And it's all been compromised. And when you see an embalmed body and I've been involved in a lot of exclamations, the organs themselves, once you take them out, feel about the consistency of a fully inflated or overinflated basketball.

They're very firm, okay, because they're hard. You have the substance in there. In her case, Nancy, with this pink froth, I can't get away from this. She's experiencing some kind of respiratory congestive event. Now, there's a lot of things that can lead to that, congestive heart failure, but you can also have drug anomalies that come along as well. It's something that's been administered to somebody, okay, over a period of time. Now, you can't go back and look for the drugs. All you can look for, I think the answer to this case, is probably going

to rest in her lungs. The question is, if they sampled her lungs at the exhumation autopsy, okay, that they did, is there going to be anything visible under the microscope that's going to give them an indication that she was in some kind of respiratory distress? That's even, that's going to be compromised as well too, because it's not going to look like it would in a freshly passed away body. Okay. What about her skin and her hair and her nails? Could anything be determined from them? Yeah, yeah, there is, Nancy.

And one of the things that, you know, that we think about, and I know where you're going with this, one of the things that we look about is heavy metal poisoning. Okay, people that are exposed to things like arsenic, lead, that sort of thing, you can't see changes in there, but that's all you're going to be able to find. Because when this, what's it called? What it's called is perfusion. When this perfusion takes place with a tremendous amount of force that they're pumping this embalming fluid in, it flushes everything.

It gets into these little tiny spaces and it preserves the body. Nancy, I've done exhumations. I have done exhumations where people were buried 20 years ago and their bodies look like they just first put them in the ground. And that has nothing to do with some kind of overall spiritual apparition or anything like that. That means that their body's preserved by chemicals. That ain't natural. Okay. So by doing that, you freeze the body in time, but you just freeze the shell that's remaining. You flushed everything that is a valuable way, essentially. To Ashley Wilcott, judge and trial lawyer, can you think of a tactical reason, a trial strategy reason that the state is not releasing the autopsy report?

Absolutely, because think about it. If it's not being released, then Chad Daybell and Tammy Vallow Daybell do not know what those autopsy results are. And so it's not just let's not release it to the public so everybody knows. They're still investigating, Nancy. And who knows what information in there they may be able to use to speak with the two defendants or speak to witnesses to get more additional different information. So they still need to get... That's the only reason I can think of. Again, let me reiterate.

Chad Daybell and Colt Momlory Vallow have not been charged in the death of Tammy Daybell. And they have pled not guilty to all charges relating to the murders of Valley's children, J.J. and Tylee. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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