Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Tampa gripped by fear as serial killer walks the streets

Episode Date: October 26, 2017

A serial killer is believed to be on the loose in Tampa, Florida, after three fatal street shootings in the same neighborhood. Nancy Grace explores the latest evidence in the case with psycho-analyst Dr. Bethany Marshall, Crime scene investigator Sheryl McCollum, forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, WFLA-TV reporter Meredyth Censullo, and People magazine reporter Steve Helling. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. We will hunt this son of a bitch down until we find him. The three victims gunned down less than half a mile apart. I can't believe my son is gone. Tampa's mayor doing what he can to reassure the public saying that they've added a thousand streetlights to the Seminole Heights neighborhood and that they won't stop until that killer is caught. Nobody comes into our house and does this. Not now, not ever. Authorities pouring over, raining surveillance video for clues,

looking at this person of interest walking alone, wearing a hood on the night of the first killing. I need that Seminole Heights community to stand up and I need them to point out who that man is. An entire city on high alert on edge after three killings prove in my mind anyway there is a serial killer stalking the city of Tampa. Thousands of people at risk. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. What do we know? Steve Helling with People Magazine joining us. Steve, what do we know now other than there are three victims, two men and a woman,

all shot down within 1,000 feet of each other, seemingly connected to the bus route? Yes, that's exactly right. That's the only connection that we can figure out between the three of them. They didn't know each other. They didn't live the same lifestyles at all. But they all had something to do with the bus. They were near a bus stop. So that's what police are focusing on right now to see if that might be the connection.

Joining me right now on the scene from WFLA-TV Tampa is Meredith Censulo. Meredith, I understand that one of the guys, actually, that wasn't even his correct stop. He was an autistic male in his 20s, and he got off the bus and was actually walking to another route or somewhere to get on the right bus. He was gunned down. One of the women, a young lady in her early 30s, her father is heartbroken and angry because he said that was the light of his life. And the mom in that scenario is deaf. And her daughter was her interpreter. And she was just the light of their lives. And he says he wants to look the killer in the eye and ask, why did you take my daughter? Meredith Cicciolo, what about this?

Aren't there videos on the bus? Because I'm just wondering, does he get on the bus and follow the person off? And police are saying they don't know if it's a man or a woman. It's a man, Meredith. Well, I don't know. The surveillance video, we just have one video, and it was the night of the first murder. So just about 15 days ago, it's one video. It's really hard to tell.

Now, some people have said it's a man. Some people have said it's a woman. The Tampa Police Department is saying they are looking for this guy to question him. We don't know at this point if this person is related to these crimes, but we do have this person of interest on video walking in the area, appears to be looking down. To me, it looks like the person is maybe looking at a phone. Some people have said that it's a person. Oh, it's totally a phone. Maybe. It's totally a phone because you can kind of see it light up when he touches it. Well, that's true.

He appears to be looking down. Some people have said he appears to be wearing gloves, so it may be difficult to tell a race. I mean, at this point, this person is a phantom. The third murder happened when Tampa police patrols were literally a block or two away. They heard the shots fired and immediately ran to the direction of the shots. When they arrived, the third person, that young autistic man, was lying dead on the street and there was no one around. This person, you know, I tend to think it's a serial killer as well. Tampa police are not calling it that. But this person just seems to vanish into thin air with no clues, no leads.

And it's a total mystery to all of us here in Tampa. And I really don't get the impression that Tampa police are keeping anything from us. This is very serious. And I know they're trying to get as much information out as possible. There's just so little to go on that it's a really scary situation. This is very serious, and I know they're trying to get as much information out as possible. There's just so little to go on that it's a really scary situation. Let's take a listen to what Tampa police have to say. Listen carefully.

The shooting occurred last night at about 8 o'clock. Our officers were in the neighborhood. Heard gunfire as they canvassed through the neighborhood. Unfortunately, one of our officers was able to find him, but it was too late. He was already dead. One of our police officers came upon him this is you know very frustrating i go from frustration to anger on these unsolved homicides and now we have someone who is terrorizing the neighborhood it's it's just difficult to to see this happen. This morning on my way to work, I stopped by the crime scene of 10,000 block of New Orleans where Monica Hoppa was murdered.

Last night I was at Benjamin Mitchell's crime scene and visited there. Last night's murder was about 200-300 yards south of where Benjamin Mitchell was murdered. And it was nearly in front of Benjamin Mitchell's house. So this morning as I visited Monica Hoffa's crime scene, I then went over to last night where Anthony Navoa was. And I ran into his parents. I met his parents there this morning. Anthony last night was at work. He took the wrong bus to this neighborhood. He should not have been in this neighborhood.

It appears that he was walking northbound from what we think, going to another bus stop, and he did not make it. While we were out there last night, his father called the Tampa Police Department and was worried that his son was missing. After a further investigation, we had to regretfully inform him that his son had been murdered. Anthony is the oldest of five children. He graduated from Middleton High School last year. He was in the prime of his life and had been taken instantly. We're not going to be held hostage by whoever's doing this. We need everyone to come out of their homes at night, turn on their porch lights, and just not tolerate this type of terrorism in the neighborhood. We have to get people outside. This neighborhood is cooperating with us, and we have a heavy presence in there.

We still have no leads. We have no motive. You know, Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Institute and crime scene expert, that reminds me of a case. I believe you remember it, that I tried. It was my first bank robbery. Normally the feds take those, but they didn't want this one because it was so weak. The guy broke in to a bank. Didn't break in. He walked in with a gun. Don't touch the L-RAM. This is a Roby.

He was also dyslexic. Don't touch the alarm. This is a robbery. I'm translating. But what he did was, all that aside, he had on a fake beard, fake mustache, fake wig, hat, sunglasses. He had on a suit. And when he left, he ripped off the suit. It was basted up

the back. He had on athletic shorts, socks, a short sleeve shirt, ripped off the wig, all that, got on a bike and pedaled away as the police were approaching. And he just pedaled off with all the money stuff down his shirt. This guy, Cheryl, is either riding the bus, he frequents that neighborhood, or he lives in that neighborhood or the perimeter of that neighborhood. It is a man. Cheryl, everything we know about method

and assessment of homicide tells me a serial killer is a man. Plus, he's using a gun. Women very rarely use a gun. Now, you had the monster played by Charlize Theron, and she used a gun sometimes, but typically, you know, women don't use guns when they're a serial killer, if they're a serial killer, which is rare. It is a man. My only question is the race. Another thing, Cheryl,

typically a serial killer kills within his own race. I mean, look at Gacy. Look at Bundy. Look at all serial killers. They typically kill with BTK. Same thing. These are just off the top of my head. I mean, if you really look at them, you'll see that's true. But here we've got a mixture of races of the victims. We've got African-American and white. So, you know, what do you think, Cheryl?

We also have male and female. So what you're looking at here is more of a son of Sam type of thing, more of a D.C. sniper. They they are not picking the victim based on any characteristic. They are picking opportunity. So it's almost got a feel of a spree killer as well. So, again, it is going to be imperative that people stay vigilant because this person is hiding in plain sight. Oh man, talk about, hold on, talk about the DC killer. I was working in DC at the time and when I would get off a plane and try to get to where I was going, Steve Haling, People Magazine, you remember that well. Steve, you've covered so many serial killer cases. Let's talk about what you think

about this one. Come on, you've been investigating it. I have and talk about what you think about this one. Come on, you've been investigating it. I have. And you know, what I think about this one is that eventually, there's going to have to be some sort of mistake made. And unfortunately, I think that this isn't going to stop. These things just don't stop. I mean, there might be a break for a while. But, you know, there's a reason why Tampa police are they're installing more streetlights. They're stepping up the patrols because they think this is going to happen again. And I'm unfortunately inclined to believe them unless this person is caught. But what do we have to go on right now?

We have nothing. And so that's why I feel like this may be the beginning of of something really bad. Oh, it's bad, Steve. When you say we have nothing to go on, I hear what you're saying. But I I agree and disagree. This may be the beginning of something really bad. Oh, it's bad, Steve Helling. And when you say we have nothing to go on, I hear what you're saying. But I agree and disagree. While we don't have a description, I'm telling you it's a man. I'm telling you.

Well, we can't round up every man in Tampa. And if they would do like they did in the Missy Beaver case, just for an example, or they did in the Delphi Girls on a Bridge case. Sadly, both of them are not solved. But you can take the video and you can compare it to, you take the picture of the guy in the video and you compare it to what he's standing next to. And you can get his height. And looking at him, you can extrapolate his weight. You can figure out what kind of shoes he's wearing, what kind of sweatshirt he's wearing. He's got a hood over his face. You can figure out what kind of clothes he's wearing.

I mean, I hear what you're saying, Nancy. But the other thing is, this is just a person of interest. We don't even know that this is the shooter. So, you know. Oh, OK, Steve Helling. It's just somebody else, a lone guy walking along right after a gunshot and there's a dead body near him. Okay. What's the likelihood of that? Zero. I take walks sometimes. I haven't shot anybody. When did you take a walk by a dead body? Name it. Well, no, no, I haven't. Not hearing.

I have not. No. Thank you. Thank you for breaking down. It's hard to break Steve Helling down. Now, okay. You said it's going to be something bad. Steve, it is something bad. It's already something bad. Of course, this is horrible. This is horrific. But what I'm saying is unless there's something to go on that we can figure out who this is and take him off the streets, I don't think it's going to stop. I agree. I agree with that. Meredith Censulo, WFLA-TV Tampa, joining us there. Do you agree or disagree with Steve Helling from People Magazine? Well, I think that this person on the videotape is definitely a suspect, you know, needs to be looked at. This neighborhood, maybe five minutes from downtown Tampa, it's a residential neighborhood. Sort of the main drag there

has a lot of indie craft beer type places. But beyond that, it's purely residential. It's a mix of races, of income levels. And it's just not a place aside from maybe being at the bus stop that people are going to be out and about walking late at night. All of these crimes have happened at night, you know, some later than others. The gentleman that was killed the other night, that happened, you know, pretty early in the evening, 8 or 9 o'clock. But other than those folks that are maybe coming and going from the bus stop, there's just not a lot of activity on the road. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Was it on a weekday or a week or a weekend? They have occurred on weeknights.

I believe the last... Okay, Steve Helling, hold on just a moment. This is what I used to love to do. And Bethany Marshall, I'm going to come to you very quickly. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, joining us. Very well known in her field out of L.A. Steve Helling, in court, my favorite... Well, one of my favorite things to do

when I was putting a killer behind bars, there's so many favorites, but one was to look up similar transactions and work them like a dog. And to do that, you'd have to get similarities. Let's look at what we know. All of these are on a week night. That means this guy is probably busy during the day. They're all in the same area. He either lives there or he frequents that area. They're all related to a bus stop. Is he riding the bus? Is that his mode of transportation?

Is he hanging out around a bus stop? What is around the bus stop? What is around other bus stops in the area? Is he frequenting a restaurant? Does he work in one of those restaurants? I know that he's a male and he is wearing a hood over his face. Who would do that? What else do we know? These three people are not connected, but they all rode the bus. Are you getting a picture of this guy? He works at night. What can you tell me about ballistics, Steve Helling from People Magazine? Well, that's a good question. And maybe

that's a good question for Meredith, because I don't have the ballistics in front of me right now. I haven't heard it either. That's why I was asking you guys. Meredith, do you know, Meredith Cicillo, do we know ballistics? You know, it's interesting. They have not come out and declared this a serial killer, which indicates they have not linked the weapon. Now, I did speak with the former chief of police, Jane Castor. She's still very involved in the community here. I talked to her the other day before they actually declared the third killing was part of this series. And she actually lives in that neighborhood herself. And she mentioned to me that it was likely that they were going to be doing ballistic fingerprinting to link these three

crime scenes together. Now, we know they have been linked, but outside of that, they haven't come out and said, you know, other than these were all shootings, that the reason why they're linked is because of the weapon. Man, we've got to get that weapons information. We have to. And it's a very simple matter. I've actually been there and worked on it myself. All you do is get the known bullet, i.e., the bullet from the body or the bullet you find on the scene.

You put it under a microscope. On every bullet, it's like a fingerprint. Every gun is created in, let's just say, a factory. And it's made of molten steel or metal. And when it cools, it leaves certain striations or marks on the inside it's not it's not um polished and smoothed on the inside so when a bullet hurls down the inside of a barrel it hits those little markings those little irregularities on the inside of the barrel and it forever imprints the bullet with a striation

or a marking that only that gun can leave. So we will know if these are the same caliber weapons, if it's from the same exact gun. Won't we, Cheryl McCullough? We will absolutely know that, Nancy. There's no question about it. I think they're withholding that information to have something in case they investigate and get somebody in the room the room but i want to make a prediction nancy this again this feels very much like some for zodiac and in all three of those cases the killer contacted law enforcement through the media i think that'll happen here now let's go after hearing all of these facts to our psychoanalyst a true expert in her field dr beth Bethany Marshall. Okay, Bethany, you've heard the facts. Weigh in. Well, one of the things we know about serial killers is that

searching for victims is as important as killing. In other words, serial killers have a very rich fantasy life. They often have literature on their computers or in their homes about killing, about sadomasochistic types of situations. So whoever is doing this is spending a great deal of time in the neighborhood, walking through the neighborhood, riding the bus, whatever it takes to look for victims. We also know about these serial killers that they're often family men, Nancy. Remember the BTK killer? There's so many that you've covered over the years, surprisingly, were family men. And even in the literature on serial killers, you know, one of the things we read again and again, white, male, married, children, drives a family sedan. So I think in these cases, it's often important for police to put something out via the media for family members to look for strange or unusual activity amongst their own

family members. In other words, whoever's doing this is really doing it in the early evening hours during the week. Is this somebody whose wife works in the early evening hours? Is this somebody who is having strange coming and goings out of a household? Often, you know, after these crimes are solved, you learn that the perpetrator had a great deal of unusual activity within the household, but other family members were overlooking it. Also joining in right now, death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan. He is a crime scene investigator extraordinaire and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott, you've heard us sift through the facts.

Analysis? I'm not so inclined to throw around the term serial killer here. Going back to what Cheryl said. Oh, yes, it's just a coinkydink right that three people are gunned down within a thousand feet of each other i'm a little disappointed jess got i usually agree with you but you're dead wrong uh what cheryl had said earlier was that was that uh you know we had uh this could very well be a spree event all right what we need to look at though and let me give you a let me give you a day.

Tell me to keep our eyes on what you mean by a spree event versus a serial killer spree event. Spree event means that you kill multiple people in a very short period of time. We don't have enough evidence at this point in time to say that this is a serialized event. We have two individuals that were killed on the 9th. Then there was another individual killed on the 19th, singular. Now, nothing else has happened at this time. I think it's too early to call it a serial event. What I can say is that serial perpetrators many times work on cycles. I've worked, I don't know, in my career, probably five separate sets of serial homicide deaths, like a series of these things, both in New Orleans and Atlanta. Okay, hold on, hold on. Let me break it down to regular people talk.

Okay. Joe Scott Morgan, you've been living in that ivory tower there in the classroom. In Alabama, you're absolutely right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, teaching. Here we go. Okay. The definition of a spree killer is somebody, or it can be more than one person, but typically somebody who commits two or more murders without a cooling-off period.

That means you go postal, and you go in there, and you shoot a whole bunch of people at once. A serial killer has a cooling-off period. There is a period of time. It can be a day. It can be of time. It can be a day. It can be a week. It can be a month. It can be months. Think of BTK.

He committed by torture kill. He was actually a dog catcher. That's a clue right there. Who wants to catch dogs and euthanize them? Okay, think about it. So this guy kills over a period of years, like Ted Bundy. Spree killer, it's like a shopping spree. It's done.

In, out, bam, over. Serial killer is more methodical in that there's a cooling off period between each murder. But in this case, you know, you had two and then you had another. To me, that constitutes serial. But to me, that's all semantics. You're splitting hairs. Okay, let's get down and dirty. Go, Joe Scott.

Well, what I'm saying is they need to be very purposeful in what they're doing. And I think that Tampa is doing exactly that. They're not releasing a lot of information. The connectivity that we look for in forensic cases, Nancy, as you well know, is what can tie these things together. We're talking about ballistics. It'll be very interesting to see if all three of these cases are tied ballistically, behavior patterns, this sort of thing. One other thing, the first of these killings took place on the 9th. The next one took place on the 19th. I'd be very curious as to what happens on the 29th of October moving forward. Many times

these people work on site. October 9, October 13, October 19. The second victim was, she was killed on the 11th. They found her body in a deserted parking area, field area on the 13th. So we know killings on the. Ah, yes. Okay. You're right. So it's 9th, 11th, the body found on the 13th, and then the 19th. Is that right?

Yeah. Okay, Joe Scott Morgan, chew on that, buddy. Oh, I'll chew on it. 9th, 11th, the 19th. I'll chew on it, but what I'm saying is we have to be very, very careful moving forward. Is this guy going to patterns? Just like the doctor mentioned a moment ago, is there some kind of... Hold on, hold on. That's what's significant, Cheryl McCollum, about what Joe Scott's saying, and he's right in that. I accused him of splitting hairs, parsing words. It's all semantics. Like, is it spree? Is it serial? It's like, doesn't matter. People are dying. But to me, it is important because if it is serial,

if it's serialized, there will be more victims. If it's spree, this may be the end of it. Well, Nancy, let me jump in. You said you wanted to get down and dirty. Let's do it. He's spending no time with these victims. Nothing is sexual. So a lot of times when you have a serial killer, whether it's Bundy, BTK, Dahmer, sex is primary.

That's what's part of the murder. We don't have that here. This guy is finding somebody. Again, I'm going to go back to Son of Sam. He's finding somebody, shooting them, and he's done. So not only are they going to connect that bullet, they're also going to connect where were they shot. It's going to be paramount.

Right now, the tip line, 800-873-TIPS, T-I-P-S. There's a $25,000 reward for this moment. We can pray for Benjamin Mitchell's family, Monica Hoffa's family, and Anthony Neboa's family, the first three victims of the Tampa serial killer. You know what? Alerting the public, informing you about crimes and the search for justice is so important. And that would not happen without our partners. And we thank them deeply for making our Sirius XM 132 program possible. Right now, I want to thank our partner and it is LegalZoom. Guys, as business owners all across our country,

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For special savings, be sure to enter code NANCY, N-A-N-C-Y, in the referral box at checkout. Code NANCY equals special savings only at LegalZoom.com. LegalZoom.com. LegalZoom, thank you for what you do for business owners every single day. And thank you for being our partner on Sirius XM 132. I want to back it up just a moment on this Tampa serial killer. We have more information, but first I want you to hear the father of Monica Hoffa. This really, really broke my heart. I'm angrier than I've ever been in my life. I need that Seminole Heights community to stand up,

and I need them to point out, you know, who that man is. She was a good person because my daughter made a difference in this world. I just hated that someone took that from the world and me. She was a godsend to her mother. You know, she would, her mother being deaf, she would, she would interpret for her mom. Nothing's going to help me get through this. I just want to go look in his eyes. Most of all, we need to identify him and get him off the street so that nobody else has to have their daughter killed needlessly by some random guy on the street. You know, Cheryl McCollum, crime scene expert, director of the Cold Case Institute, and former,

you know, when I say former, you're really still doing it as a crime scene expert. Cheryl, I'm very surprised they've not released the caliber of weapon. And you know it's going to be the same. So what do you make of that Cheryl because that's a big piece of this puzzle sure well again with some of these cases Nancy if you can you know have a 38 if you've got a 357 whatever the weapon is it's going to be critical no the caliber of weapon is going to be paramount here there's no question he selected that weapon for a reason but again what's going to be real critical for me is where these victims shot in the chest where they shot

in the face where they shot in the back that's also going to give you a lot of insight to this killer they're playing that really close right now they're not going to give those cards away yet they're just not so meredith and sulo wLA-TV Tampa, we should at least know where they were shot. In the face, in the chest, in the back. I understood it was the back. Is that not right, Meredith? Aside from saying that the victims have been shot, we know the times of day that they were shot and the locations. But honestly, details about how and when they were shot, that's just so hard to come by. TPD is keeping a lot of

this very close to the vest. There's just not a lot of information out there other than, again, these folks, we know that they were alone. They were in an area near this bus stop, which, by the way, bus service has been suspended to that area. This is how how scared this community is. But, you know, in terms of we do know they were shot from a distance, but that's about it. Ah, shot from a distance. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining us from L.A., that's significant. Bethany, what does it tell you about the criminal? Well, I think it's significant because these serial killings are so highly ritualized. You know, when you have multiple victims, you see the same offending pattern

with each act of the perpetrator. And so the fact that they're all shot, it's early in the evening, means that for this perpetrator, the element of surprise is extremely important to him. The idea that he's hiding, that the victims don't know that he's around. And Cheryl McCollum said that these crimes were not sexually motivated. And perhaps that's true, but, you know, it doesn't have to be semen on the victim or a direct sexual assault for a crime to be sexually motivated. I remember with the BTK killer reading quite a bit of literature about the crime and the semen wasn't always on the body.

Sometimes it was outside the house. Sometimes it was in a different room. So for this perpetrator, it might be associated with a masturbatory ritual. And then the idea of the cooling off period, I think it's important for the public to know that cooling off is a misnomer. It doesn't mean that that person is losing interest in killing. It just means that the ritualized aspect of searching for victims, thinking about it, reading stories about killing, looking at literature about killing, engaging in a rich fantasy life about killing, that that is more containing to them for a period of time than actually acting on it.

So you have sort of a going back and forth, a cycle between thinking, fantasizing, and then doing. And that's why I was saying earlier that it's so important to let the public know that if anybody has a family member that's engaging in very strange activity or has a huge online habit, a lot of pornography, a lot of violent material on their computers, to really begin to think about, you know, could it be that quiet person hiding in the midst of the neighborhood? Everybody has to be on high alert. Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics professor. What about the ATF? How can they help us? Is there any type of a database for guns or ammunition where the bullet itself can be traced?

Now, I know when a bullet goes through a human body, it becomes deformed, and it can be ruined. But you can still very often get a striation mark off of it to make a comparison. Is there any databank, so to speak, you know, like APHIS or CODIS for fingerprints and DNA for guns? Yeah, Nancy, there is. ATF has got one of the most extensive ballistic databases that exist. And they've been working on this for years and years. Many times people think that it's the FBI. The ATF is really the tip of the spear when it comes to firearms examination. And not only, let's not forget, not only can they match these things up ballistically where you were mentioning the striations on the bullets,

they also have the ability to match these things chemically because every projectile has a specific chemical signature that goes back to the manufacturer where it was composed. And so the type of ammunition that's being used so the type of ammunition that's being used, the type of weapon that's being fired, in my experience, most serialized events, the individual stays with a weapon that they feel most comfortable with,

whether it's a knife or a firearm or their bare hands. They don't deviate from that a lot. And that's going to be really important moving forward relative to the connectivity between all of this. What's the modality? How are these things connected? And I found it very interesting where you mentioned that it was at a distance. At a distance, from an evidentiary standpoint, what that means is that we're not going to have evidence that's related to, say, like gunpowder on the body that can give you a specific range of fire. Most of the time they're going to refer to this as an indeterminate distance. But again,

a lot of that remains to be seen. For me personally, I'm going to be very interested to see what the autopsies reveal as far as angle of fire, deflection, the relationship between the shooter and the victim. This is going to be very, very important. You know, another significant fact to Cheryl McCollum, I want you to think about this, percolate for a minute, Cheryl. If they were shot at a distance, does that mean a rifle, a long gun was used? Or are they that good of a shot that they can shoot, say, a.38 or a.22

at a distance and hit their mark? Think about it, Cheryl. What do you think? Well, it also could mean he's new to it, and he doesn't have the gut to walk right up to him yet and have any kind of interaction. It could also mean that he's still a little fearful or if he's even seven feet away, he's already away from the victim. He can leave faster. But I want to revisit the sexual thing really quickly, Nancy, because this is really important. Most people know whether they want to have sex with Morgan Freeman or Britney Spears. If this was sexual, the victims would be his type. So clearly, again, when you have black males and white females, that ain't the type.

So you're looking more, I have a feeling, of a free killer. This is somebody that we don't kill again, but he will also be very patient. So the police are making it harder for him right now. But that's his area. That's his neighborhood. That's where he's comfortable. Well, he could just get to the next bus stop, you know, a half a mile down the street or a mile away. That's still his neighborhood. What about it, Bethany Marshall? Well, I think Cheryl brings up an interesting point that no two victims are alike. So it does make you think about the sexual component. But remember, the BTK killer assaulted entire families sexually, adults, men, women, children. So sometimes it's a heterogeneous group.

I think it's fascinating that he's staying near the same bus stop. In my fantasy about this, I could be wrong, is that this guy is very entrenched in this one area. He's very comfortable there. And I agree with Cheryl that maybe he's frightened, you know, that he can only use a gun at a distance because at this point he's working up his courage to get closer to the victim so that, you know, even though in these serialized events, usually there's the same ritual again and again. Maybe this ritual will be elaborated upon and he'll get closer to his victims in the future. Hey, Nancy, one thing I'm thinking about here is we keep talking about the sexual component and this sort of thing. Let's

think about the D.C. sniper real quick. This guy crossed racial or these guys crossed racial boundaries relative to this. And the motivation was not sexual in that case. The motivation in that, in those particular cases had something to do with anger, rage, and it wasn't directed, uh, in a sexual context. And this guy was killing multiple people, but they were shooting them in open locations where they could seek cover. Uh, they were disguised. Remember the white panel van that had everybody in a frenzy in the greater D.C. area? And it turned out to be a Chevy Caprice.

They completely put the police off scent. A lot of it had to do with the way the case was initially worked. That's why they need to be very, very careful moving forward with this. And every bit of information needs to be sifted through very carefully. I get an indication in this particular case that Tampa has learned some lessons from mistakes that have been made in the past.

And I applaud them for playing this close to the best. I think they should continue to play this thing close to the best. I agree completely. Why? And I brought up DC Sniper earlier because it has the same feel to me. And again, the rage and the revenge is clearer than any other component in this thing. And that's, again, why I think if they play it perfectly, he'll reach out. I think he's a black male.

I think he's young. And so I think they need to start watching social media because if he contacts them, it won't be through a letter. He doesn't know anything about writing a letter. He will text it or tweet it. There will be indications on social media. Okay, yes, just yesterday I was talking on Daily Mail TV about who this guy is. And I said, it is a male. Got in a little argument with Jesse, the host.

And then I went on to say that most serial killers are white males, so I got into the white male aspect, but in this case, it could very easily be an African-American male. It is a man, though. I'm just telling you that. Joe Scott Morgan keeps trying to tell me, or is that Steve Helling trying to tell me it might be a woman? It's not a woman, okay?

Cheryl, please explain why it's not a woman. Don't get your feelers hurt, Steve Helling, People Magazine. Cheryl, tell them why it's not a woman. Okay. Cheryl, please explain why it's not a woman. Don't get your feelers hurt, Steve Elling People Magazine. Cheryl, tell them why it's not a woman. Well, first of all, it's a handgun. And we are so rarely going to see a woman use a handgun, especially walking down the street and just arbitrarily picking victims of opportunity or random. That just doesn't happen with women. But here again, you're missing the other big component. Jeffrey Dahmer assaulted and murdered people of different races, but not different genders. DC Sniper, I said on your show years ago, Nancy, that it would be a person of color. I was the only person

that said that. And I was also the only person that said he wasn't a serial killer. DC Sniper was a spree killer. There's a different feel here. So if you pay attention and just reduce it to its most elementary state, you have men, you have women, you have white, you have black, you have random, you have opportunity, you have I'm just going to walk away. So again, Son of Sam, Zodiac, this is what they did. It's more spree. You know, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining me out of L.A.,

I'll tell you why it's not a woman, because we're too darn busy. We're too darn busy getting up at 5 o'clock and making the children breakfast and getting them dressed for school and getting them there and then working full-time and then coming home and trying to put a nice dinner on the table and have that hallmark moment, which P.S. never happens. Okay. So I don't have time unless I'm going to run them down with my minivan.

I don't have time to kill anybody. Okay. Now, I have thought of that occasionally, but I haven't acted on it, just so you all know. That's why it's not a woman. Okay. There. And women don't kill with guns.

I mean, it's just so rare that they do. When women kill, it's usually a soft kill, as you know, Nancy. And often it's somebody within their own family, unfortunately, like their own children or a husband. But it's poisoning. It's drowning. It's putting a pillow over a child's head. It's something like that. It's not that violence from a distant shooting-type situation.

What about to Joseph Scott Morgan? Wait, hold on. Let me throw this to Meredith because she may know this fact. Meredith Censulo joining me from WFLA-TV Tampa. Is there any financial aspect to these shootings? I haven't really thought of that. You know, people typically kill over sex or money. Excuse me. Yeah, over money or sex. Unless it's a woman, then it's a love type, a love killing. If you could call it that, that really doesn't fit together. What do you know, Meredith?

Well, I can tell you this. So we had the third victim, a 20-year-old autistic man. That's not going to be something where, you know, this would be killing for money there. The second victim, 32-year-old female. She didn't own a car. She used the bus to get from location to location. So, again, I'm not going to say, you know, there's a lot of wealth to be had there. And our first victim was a student, a 20-year-old student. So, you know, in all—

Well, I know, but if you're shooting from a distance, Meredith, you don't know that. Did they take their wallet or the pocketbook? Well, that's true. No, if that happened, there has been no indication that there was a theft involved in any of these cases. And I will say from living and knowing this community, the bus system, while they do a great job, it is going to be catering to more of a lower income resident here in Tampa. South Seminole Heights, again, it's kind of gentrified at this point. It's a mix.

But for the most part, it's going to be a lower income community. You know, the tip line, 800-873-TIPS, T-I-P, as in Pennsylvania, S, a $25,000 reward. I want to thank our partner making our serious 132 program possible today. Guys, you know how much I love Fat Boy, aka Nitro, my pound puppy, and not to leave out my pound kitty, Cinnamon Girl. I'm always on the lookout for fun new things we can do with Fat Boy and Cinnamon Girl. Well, I discovered an amazing new dog collar called Link AKC, and it's so much more than a collar. I never thought I'd feel this way about a dog collar. It's backed by the American Kennel Club. The Link AKC collar is a GPS locator,

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Now, police are telling everybody just be careful, go about your business. I don't necessarily agree with that. To Cheryl McCollum, crime scene expert and director of the Cold Case Institute, I'm not really sure why they're saying have your cookouts and go about your regular business because I sure as heck, when I was in D.C. during the D.C. sniper, I was a nervous wreck. Well, I kind of agree with the mayor that we're not going to let this SOB, you know, change our lives. However. Right, that's easy for you to say.

Tell Anthony Neboa and Monica Hoffa and Benjamin Mitchell's parents, just go about your business. But you've got to get out. That's the way to flush this guy out. That's the way to see him. That's the way to get that $25,000 reward. You can't hide in your house and catch him. So I agree. Get out.

Walk about. Pay attention. Because he's out there, Nancy. He is. He's in plain sight. He's going to grocery stores. He's taking whatever bus he can near there. He's walking.

Oftentimes. I don't know. I think you've lost your mind, Cheryl McCollum. Because when you say get out and flesh him out, I'm not sending my children out on the street to flesh out a killer. He doesn't kill anybody in a group. He doesn't. I tell you what, you go down there and flesh him out on the street, Cheryl. How about that? No, don't do that because then I wouldn't have you here on our program. Okay. Bethany Marshall, I completely

disagree with telling everybody to just go ahead and get out. Go ahead. Why are they saying that, Bethany? I disagree because whoever goes out is at risk. Why would you want to put your life at risk to catch a serial killer? You know, one of the things I can say, though, is that we're talking about the differences between all these victims, different race, different gender, but there's some startling similarities, too. They're all vulnerable. They're all young people. And one of the things we know about serial killers is that they always prey on a very vulnerable population, whether it's sex workers, that's a very frequent population because of their availability. But in this case,

young people who ride the bus. So I think it's not the whole city that needs to be on high alert. It's the most vulnerable population that doesn't have their own cars, that has to rely on the bus system. These are the people who are at risk. Joining me is Joe Scott Morgan. Also, Joe Scott, how are we going to catch this guy? By very careful examination of all the evidence. Pay attention to patterns. Police really need to continue to take their time with this. And the public, it is an absolute must that the public pay attention to their entire environment and also those individuals that inhabit that environment, family members, close friends, anybody that's acting oddly or anybody that has said anything in the past that would give them an indication that someone has anger issues, that

they just want to go out and randomly hurt somebody. That's how we're going to catch this guy and vigilance, remaining vigilant at all times. I don't agree with hiding in your house. However, I also agree with staying in groups out there. I think that it's very, very careful. When I was a kid, we endured the Atlanta child murder cases. And I was in high school and every night at 11, 1059, the guy would come on TV and say, it's 11 o'clock. Do you know where your children are? And I remember being terrified of that when I was in high school now. And of course, that was all happening in the inner city of

Atlanta. But it was still a scary time. People need to remain vigilant. Right now, police escorting children to school in the Seminole Heights area, warning residents not to walk alone at night. A city bus changed its route to detour the sites of the two incidents. But as of right now, police still do not have a motive or a suspect in the killings that started October 9 and are linked so far only by time and location. People are afraid. These shootings are only 300 yards apart. I don't know the answer. Seminole Heights is a working-class neighborhood just a little north of downtown Tampa.

There are all sorts of people that live in this melting pot. There are rundown homes sitting next to brand new, big, beautiful McMansions and bungalows. There are new restaurants springing up. It's a really diverse area, so you can't peg it as one thing or another. But I know this, one person is wreaking havoc and I want it to end help us 1-800-873-TIPS T-I-P-S for a $25,000

reward Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off goodbye friend this is an iHeart Podcast