Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Taylor Swift won't shake it off! Singer to testify in groping case

Episode Date: August 8, 2017

Taylor Swift says she's standing up for all women who are subjected to unwelcomed groping and sexual advances by men. The singer's federal trial is underway in Denver and Swift will testify. RadarOnline's Alexis Tereszcuk and lawyer Jason Oshins join Nancy Grace to discuss the case. Crime Stories can also be heard each day on SiriusXM's ch. 132. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. She's getting ready to take the stand in her civil suit against a radio DJ who she accuses of groping her during a photo op. Swift is being sued by former KYGO DJ David Mueller. Swift claimed Mueller's hand grabbed her backside inappropriately and his radio station fired him. This TMZ picture showing the two together will be at the center of the trial. Look at where his hand is. It's an odd spot. My hand was never under her skirt. I never grabbed her. Mueller is asking for millions. Swift, just one dollar.

It's about women's rights. It's something that's been going on for years. And women are saying enough is enough. Shake it off. I don't want to live forever. Blank space. The list goes on and on and on. A place in this world all too well.

Cold as you. Haunted. Innocent. I could just name this list forever. I'm talking about Massive Hits by superstar Taylor Swift. She's like everybody's sister. Everybody's first cousin. the girl next door. But now she is a major witness in a major trial as superstar Taylor Swift heads to court in a case involving an alleged groping, an alleged groping by kind of a star in his own world.

I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Taylor Swift is headed to court in a case that has made a sensation when it hit the news, the pop star has been sitting next to her lawyers as they began the process of selecting a jury for a trial. She accused a radio DJ of groping her in the middle of a photo shoot. Joining me right now from RadarOnline.com, investigative reporter Alexis Tereschuk. Alexis, thanks for being with us. Alexis, what's so crazy is she's not suing him. He's suing her. Do I have it completely bass-ackwards? Well, he initially sued her. He said that she got him fired and that she defamed him that because of her that he lost his 150 000 a year dj job and that she had trashed his name but she actually turned around and countersued him for assault and battery and she said that she was violated by him that she literally

said in court in a deposition that he grabbed her ass cheek. And she's never been more sure of anything in her life. Okay, so this is how it all went down. The DJ, David Mueller, according to Taylor Swift, slipped his hand up under her dress while they posed together at one of her concerts back in 2013. Now, as Alexis Torres-Chuck from Radar Online just tells us, Mueller sues first, saying Swift's allegation cost him $150,000 a year times, what, 10 or 20, as long as he thought he was going to be a DJ. She immediately countersued in about 30 days,

describing the groping incident as, quote, completely intentional. Now, you know, also with me is a very well-known lawyer in his jurisdiction and really across the country, Jason Oceans. Jason, when a guy lifts his hand up under your skirt and grabs your rear end, how can that be unintentional? Nancy, it's an intentional act. I think the real question is the time frame here. This happened two years before the suit by Mueller regarding his termination. And then sort of it almost seems like, well, you're going to file a suit against me, Taylor

Swift says, so I'll file a suit against you. Where's the gapping in all of this? That seems to me the bigger question. I don't know what you just said. I think you decided not to answer the question of how can a guy get his hand up your skirt and grab your rear end

and give it a squeeze and that be unintentional. That was my question, although I admire the fancy footwork that you just displayed. I don't know what you said. Something about time passing and a gap. I don't know.

Now, back to the question. Yeah. How can that be unintentional, Jason? In and of itself, it's got to be an intentional act, right? If you're particularly grabbing, unless your hand is around and someone moves and it slides down. But I'm sure the actual tort of grabbing the butt cheek. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You've got your hand around and someone moves and it slides down.

Okay, wait a minute. Don't you have to go up the skirt and then squeeze? How do you? Wait a minute. What did you say? Somebody moves and then slides down? I'm not a groper per se, but I imagine if you're grabbing hold of something in particular, you're grabbing hold of it, aren't you?

Oh, it was something in particular, all right. Yeah. Hand around the waist. Somebody moves. It's a photo shoot. Maybe someone misconstrues that. I'm more concerned about the time frame here, that gapping of the action. Wait, wait, wait, wait.

Somebody misconstrues what? If a guy puts his hand up my skirt and grabs my rear end, let me tell you something. He's going to put out a hand and pull back a nub, okay? I think we all understand that. Now, let's take a look at this picture. That's more concerning. Look, let me just say I love Taylor Swift, okay? We dance to it all. We have a dance party almost every night before the twins go to sleep. Because I find, Jason, that really helps calm them down before they go to sleep. No doubt. Crank up.

Taylor Swift on Alexa. I mean, you know the twins. P.S., how are your children? Don't tell me how old they are. I might start crying. They're great. And I won't tell you their ages because we'll all start crying. Oh, man.

Oh. I guess you're not having dance parties at night. Just in my own head, Nancy. Just in my own head. Just in my own head. But here's the issue. I'm going to get back to your alleged gap problem, which I don't see a problem. She was going to let it go and not say anything and just be irritated the way most victims do.

They just keep on going. You know, it didn't happen. It didn't happen. Got to keep going until he sues her. And boy, does he have a tiger by the tail now? He can't hold on and he can't let go. So we'll get back to your gap issue. But here's an issue that I have. And i see the issue and as you know jason oceans when you go to trial you've got to not only prepare your case but you have to be ready for their case to shoot it down absolutely like what you remember ronald reagan came up with that space wars thing where we were going to shoot down incoming missiles boy was, was he right, okay? But you've got to be ready to shoot down their case. Here's the problem for her, okay? Have you seen the picture of the photo shoot where it allegedly happened?

I have. She's smiling. She's like, everything's fine. I have an answer for this. Here's my answer. This was before the incident, like right before when that camera clicked. But that's going to be an issue. What do you think? Well, everything, it's all about timing. I mean, you look, there's a photo shoot, there's a security team there. And certainly the public, you know, is surrounding that to the extent, even though it's backstage, there are people there observing that.

I imagine if my backside was groped and I didn't like it, I'd get out a scream or a shriek or something like that. I wouldn't tolerate that and be involved in a smile any place, any time. I've got something for you. I just pulled the picture up again. Wait, Jackie, come look at this. I've got my friend Nina, Jackie, and man, not Jackie in the studio. Look at this picture, y'all. Look at this picture. It's like his hand is on her rear end. Look at this picture. Now, I was looking at her smile, Her quasi smile. But look,

look, look. She's like thinking, is she really grabbing my hand? Like through her gritted teeth. Look at his hand, people. And I actually have a man in the studio. What can you say about that, Mr. Man? He's grabbing her cheek. Okay, yeah. And we

can't even, that's three witnesses, Jason. Three. Hold on. Alexis Tereschuk wants in. Go ahead, Alexis. Jump in. You know, cheek okay yeah and we we can't even that's three witnesses jason three hold on alexis tereshchuk wants in go ahead alexis jump in you know i focused on her smile but there's a lot more in this picture alexis and her body language speaks so much so describing the picture is she is standing next to mueller's girlfriend those two are as close as can be. They clear, you know, they are, they are straining away. Yes, she does. She is so far away from him and you can see his arm is absolutely right on her rear. And so I think that she stepped away from him, but she's professional. She has taken probably millions of pictures with people. I've actually been in one of these meet and greets with her and it's so fast.

You go right through, but she says a couple words to you she looks you right in the eye she's lovely but she did take action immediately she told her photographer and her security guard that he had attacked her and then wait wait wait I want to get back to that okay Jason I I was with you I was going to come back to the issue of the the gap time okay between incident, the alleged incident. He has not been convicted. He has not been found civilly responsible. I just put that out there. We're striking a jury right now.

But that gap is a problem. And I've had that gap problem between the incident and the reporting in other cases. For instance, sex assault cases if there's a gap period between the incident and the time the victim reports it the defense has a field day as if it didn't happen and i i get it that that's a chink in the armor that doesn't mean it it didn't happen it means there's a gap that you've got to deal with but what alexis is saying right now may address your valid point jason oceans go go ahead with what you're saying she said immediately after alexis just tell me the whole thing and i'll try not to interrupt so they take

the picture click click he leaves she says that she immediately went to her photographer and her security guard she obviously always has a lot of security around her for reasons just like this and told them that he had groped her and so they tracked him down like they had given him tickets so they knew where he was the security team and they actually had him thrown right out of the concert immediately she did take i hate to say swift, but she did take swift action. And then her mother, who's a part of her management team. And we're not like that here. We'll take, we'll take anything, you know, you can give us. So I'll go with the swift action. And then her mother, who was part of her management team, Taylor keeps everything in house.

They called the radio station the next day and complained about him. They said, you know, he groped Taylor on purpose. He grabbed her under her dress. She couldn't get away from him. And they were very unhappy about this, and they wanted to complain about it. He was fired two days later. What's interesting, Jason Oceans, is she could have proceeded with a criminal case, couldn't she? With a simple assault or simple battery.

Of course. And again, you're right. This is not a criminal case. This is a civil case. But listen, she couldn't get away. He's now got a vice grip so tight, like a clamp, that she can't even get away. I mean, come on now. For the moment, I mean, if someone grabs someone, your instant reaction, if you're uncomfortable with it, is to get away, to move.

I don't care how many shots you've taken. If something happens that's uncomfortable, whatever it is, you move. You get away. You do something. You don't just sit there and smile through it as if it's fine. I agree with you. I agree with you. But, Alexis, let's address what he's saying.

That's another valid point he's raising. And these points are going to be raised at trial by the defense. So we might as well grab the bull by the horns, see what we can do with it. Think about it, Alexis. If she had had that reaction, that would have been fodder for tabloids. It would have been her face flashed on every screen with distorted complaining, screaming, reacting. And Jason is right I mean I can still remember the first time a guy grabbed my rear end and I was in high school I was a cheerleader and we we had to spend not only the whole PE having PE but then another hour doing cheerleading so we we were sent to the weight room, and a guy in there, a football player, grabbed my rear end.

And I turned around and swatted him so hard and stomped out. And I was just a girl. I didn't even know what I was doing. You know, it's just a natural reaction. Alexis, isn't it true that one in four women have been in some way molested? One in four. It is. And for Taylor Swift to have it happen with photographers and security guards standing

there, she was shocked. And she said that she wanted to keep it quiet and discreet, which is why she handled it with the radio station. But when he sued her, she fired right back. And she said, you know know what i am doing this for every woman out there who has been assaulted she said i want women to know that they should report this they should defend it and they should not feel guilty for it because it's not their fault if she tried i think that you can see in that picture that she is scooting as far away from

him as she can what is she going to do start screaming and twirling around? She's got a concert to perform. Yeah, you know what? Alan Duke, Alan Duke, text this photo. Oh, wait, I can actually do it myself. Jason, you've got to see this photo, this particular photo. Can you pull it up or can I text it to you right now? I'm here. You?

Jason Oceans? I've seen these photos. Do you have it? How dimensional are they? Do you have the photo or can I send it to you? We Oceans? I've seen these photos. Do you have it? How dimensional are they? Do you have the photo? We're not taking it from the roof. No, this particular photo. 2017 marks the 40th anniversary of the Summer of Sam.

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justice system showed itself incapable of coping with the man who committed such horrendous crimes. Download Summer of Sam by Lawrence D. Klausner today. Royalties earned from the sale of this book will be shared between the victims or their families and the author. So, to you, Jason Oceans. right now they're striking a jury. And to me, that was one of the most nerve-wracking, but one of the most enjoyable at the same time of a jury trial. Because what you do when you strike a jury, voir dire, which coincidentally is French for to speak the truth.

Voie dire. And I would bring in a panel of 100 or more people, never seen them before, hopefully. And first, they all answer general questions. In our jurisdiction, the district attorney or the plaintiff's lawyer would start and ask general questions like, do you all live in the jurisdiction? Are any of you convicted felons? Blah, blah, blah. And then each lawyer has a go at general questions that people raise their hands.

And then individual voir dire, where you ask each individual person questions. That's what they're doing right now, right, Jason? Yes, although I like to say it in my cousin Vinnie voir dire. But nonetheless, yeah, you're bringing in your whole crew. I thought you meant it really was your cousins, since you're from Jersey. Yeah, well, originally from Brooklyn, but close enough. I'm with you. Okay, well, we got that on the record, Jason.

All right, good. We got it down. Yeah, Brooklyn. You know, 60% of prospective jurors doesn't seem like enough to go through of who really doesn't want to be on the Taylor Swift trial. I mean, they've never heard of her. And, you know, some of the motivations of jurors are hidden. And you've got to be a psychologist or psychiatrist to try and fish out what's really going on so at least you're getting a level playing field of, you know, you're going to be able to get your point across and someone's not going to be clouded by,

I'm on a famous trial and I can't wait to write a book once this is all over. That's the toughest part in this one. I would love to be on this jury. See? I would. I just expect Taylor Swift to just break out in song at any moment. Okay, here we go. Jury selection for this trial of a former Denver DJ, David Mueller,

versus Taylor Swift has kicked off. It's at the Alfred A. Arash Courthouse in Denver. Now, Mueller accused Swift of fabricating an incident where he allegedly, if I fail to say allegedly at any point during today, it's alleged, it has not been proved, where he says her complaint caused him to be fired. And he wants $3 million in damages from Taylor Swift. We expect Taylor Swift to take the stand.

Now, she turned around, as Alexis Tereschuk told us, and countersued him for assault and battery, saying he put his hand up her dress and grabbed her rear end. Details will be aired in court over the next nine days. We believe it will take nine days. Jason, why do lawyers always lie? You know, I've never had one one defense lawyer not once come on nancy the state the judge will ask at the beginning ms grace how long will your case take and i'll say it will take approximately two weeks for the state to put up its case

defense how long are they four or five weeks your honor we have so much i'm like right it'll be like two we've got to keep you working through all that. You've got all the resources on the government side. Sort of got to give you a time frame to keep all your people and paralegals and assistants and everybody else on the government payroll sharp, don't we? Oh, Jason, the power of the state. That would be me and my broken down Honda out out at midnight delivering subpoenas and housing project and i'd just like to add that at the red light smoke would be pouring out from under my hood okay so back to you alexis therese chuck radar online.com which is a whole nother can of worms i have to go there for all my tory spelling news Oh, yes. So Swift shows up in court Monday

through a side entrance wearing a white dress and a black jacket. Of course, all the news outlets have to discuss what she's wearing. Why? Don't know. She could wear a sack, or as we say, a croaker sack, and she'd still look awesome. One jury has already recused

himself on grounds of having friends who were sexually assaulted. Okay. Can I just tell you, Alexis, did I tell you that I think it was last year I got called for jury duty? Did I tell you that? Oh, I hope you didn't. Oh, yes. And it was an armed robbery in a Waffle House, a place very dear to my heart and my family's heart.

In fact, we love it so much they gave us all Christmas mugs last year. Now, back to the trial. Every time, Jason, I was the nightmare juror, every time. Has anyone already formed an opinion? Right hand up. Absolutely. Does anybody think this guy did it? Right hand up. And P.S. I was standing right in front of the defendant looking right at him every time I raised my hand just look at him I mean he pulled a gun and held it in the nose of a Waffle House waitress I don't like that Jason do not like that I was a waitress once, okay? So I raised my hand on every question, and I still was still sitting on the jury at 5.30, okay? I nearly missed my show that night.

I finally did, and to make matters worse, the judge was somebody I once prosecuted with, okay? Long story short, I finally did get off the jury, and he pled guilty probably because he watched me stare at him for eight straight hours, raising my hand every time I asked, do you think he's guilty? But they're striking a jury. How can they possibly get an impartial jury, Jason Oceans? Well, that's a great question.

My best story of being called for jury duty, and I'm in the pool, and same type of question, form an opinion. I said, form an opinion? I said, form an opinion? I said, you better make me the jury foreman. I'll take care of the rest of them. We'll get justice quick. I was gone in about five minutes. That was the best answer I thought anyone had ever given. Leave me in charge of this.

They had no interest, defense counsel, in having me on that pool. Alexander Haig, I'm in charge. Yeah, I'm in charge. Okay, question. You know, that's what happened to me on a New but alexander haig i'm in charge yeah i'm in charge okay question you know that's what happened to me on a new york jury panel do you remember that time jason oceans back in brooklyn i was yet gnashing my teeth and pulling my hair because i was gonna miss some trial to go to jury duty yep and i was crying to you about it and anyway i, I ended up, was there part of the day. I gave an answer very much like that.

And for some reason, they just threw me right off. I can't imagine why. But the reality is, Jason, seriously, striking a jury, which is what's happening right now in the Taylor Swift trial, we don't expect people not to have heard about the case. But the question is, even if they have heard about it, whether they can base their verdict on what they hear in the courtroom and be fair to both sides. That is the issue, not whether they watch TV or read their iPad. Well, you want to right.

You want to sift through, exactly. You want to sift through to see that there are those people, notwithstanding anything, are just good people, and they're going to take their civic responsibilities very focussly and listen to the judge and all the questions surrounding that and be able to come through and be honest. And people are. They take these responsibilities quite seriously. You just want to make sure you're finding the right people who are doing that. And,

you know, that's why there are, you know, jury consultants and, you know, veteran attorneys who've done this. And you want to, you know, really feel that you're scoped out and you got your best shot in getting your point across without someone with predetermined agendas, regardless of what they are. Hey, let's go out to the lines. Alexis Tereschuk with me, Jason Ocean, straight out to the lines. Joe. Hello, Joe. What's your question about the Taylor Swift trial? You know, I've been loving the story because finally, finally, finally, with all the crime and missing people you've discussed over the years, and I've been following you since Court TV, all of a sudden you got a serious matter here. I have some personal experience. I got, when I was five years old. I bet you do.

Well, I must confess, when I was five years old, I had a little blonde girlfriend. I don't ever remember putting my hand on her. I don't ever remember putting my hand on her. I don't think I like where this is going, but as time, as time wore on, and I should, I don't know if I should be coming, going up for Taylor Swift or down for Taylor Swift. But as time went on, there were a few times that I happened to put my hand on someone's behind, but never in public, but never the dress. I mean, it wasn't, it was uncouth. Now I looked at the picture of that moment. It's a simple assault. It's not just uncouth. And I'd like to ask you a couple of questions, Joe.

How did your hand end up on somebody's behind? Because I was crazy about girls, women. And, you know, it didn't happen many times. Can't she be crazy without grabbing their rear ends? I didn't grab it. I just put my hand nicely on top of their skirt or whatever they were wearing. And in public. I have an issue with what Joe is saying.

You know, true, this is not a murder. The point is that if you look at that picture, if that is some, at that moment, that he is supposed to have his hand up her dress, the dress does not look like it's distended. It looks like, yes, he had his hand behind her, but I could not see that the dress was sort of distended. True. It's not a murder.

It's not an assault. That's, I mean, as in a serious sex assault, such as rape. But this is just one of the things, one of the incidents that women and others have had to put up with for years and grin and bear it and not say anything. And I think that's wrong. And if this did happen, he needed to be fired. And frankly, if this did happen, I believe he should have been prosecuted criminally.

Because you do not go up to a lady lady regardless of what she looks like or what others may think of her and grab her in her private parts you don't do that period end of story that is why in our society we have rules rules that we live by and that and the thumb is what sets us aside from the animals out in the jungle. That we have rules. We have a society where the weak are protected against those more powerful or more cunning than they are. And you may say, wow, Taylor Swift's a multimillionaire. She's a superstar.

Yes, she is. But in this case, she is just like every other woman that gets groped or harassed at the workplace or wherever. And if these allegations are true, he deserved to be fired and a whole lot more. Okay, as we are underway in the Taylor Swift jury selection, Voidire, who do you think, Alexis Tereszczuk, they're going to put on this jury? Well, I think it is not going to be Taylor's peers, because those are going to be everybody who listens to her music and who knows her. So I think it's going to maybe be a lot of older people and a lot of people that really aren't fans of Taylor's.

Who else are they going to find if the jury questions are, are you a fan of Taylor Swift? Have you ever streamed her music? Have you watched any sort of videos? I mean, this is one of the most popular stars in the world. This is going to be really hard. Well, haven't you watched her videos for Pete's sake? Have you never watched her videos? I've watched probably all of Taylor's videos.

I'm a huge fan. You're not going to be on the jury. Well, we do. You're not going to be on the jury. Well, I don't know how you're going to get anybody that doesn't know about Taylor Swift or hasn't watched her videos. I mean, we know all the words by heart. Well, most don't know how you're going to get anybody that doesn't know about Taylor Swift or hasn't watched her videos. I mean, we know all the words by heart.

Well, most of them anyway. Hey, what about this? When Taylor Swift takes the stand, okay, they're going to try and allege that she fabricated this incident. All right, Jason? What do we know about Taylor Swift that they can use against her? Because her team needs to be ready for that. Do you think they can use stories she's written for songs about relationships and somehow weave that into ammunition against her?

Well, certainly anything is going to be part of it from there. And I think the gapping, I said that in the beginning. She wants to serve as an example to other women who are going to be part of it from there. And I think the gapping, I said that in the beginning, you know, she wants to serve as an example to other women who are going to, you know, resist publicly reliving these similar outrageous and humiliating acts, and that's her quote. Then why not, you know, if you're the champion of women, why wait until you're sued to respond and then go all out at it? If this happened and you are that champion, then where were you?

You certainly had a platform. I mean, the DJ Jackson Mueller and, you know, that shouldn't be intimidating to the Taylor Swift team. It shouldn't have been then, you know, sending your security team to throw her out. That's not enough. Jason. What?

Jason! Are you sitting down? Are you and Alexis sitting down? Because I've got to throw her out. That's not enough. Jason. What? Jason! Are you sitting down? Are you and Alexis sitting down? Because I've got to tell you something. You may need to lay down for this one. Forget sitting down. Have you ever noticed that some juries go back in the jury room and they come up with a completely crazy

conspiracy theory about what happened where there's no evidence whatsoever to support it? Absolutely. Okay. Like maybe the drug gang, the Hawaiian drug gang killed Lacey Peterson, that kind of thing. Yeah. One juror has already been ruled out by Judge Martinez

at the request of Swift's legal team because he confesses he's looked at the leaked photo and he thinks the photo has been altered. He thinks the photo has been photoshopped and altered. So here we go. Here we go with the conspiracy theories. And I can only imagine what else is going to come out of this whole thing. What other theories?

Hold on, guys. I'm going back to the line. Here's Angela in Columbia, Tennessee. Hi. Hi there. I love you, Nancy. You just made me the happiest person in the whole wide world. I love you so much.

I watch you all the time. Thank you, girl. You're welcome. What's happening? What's going on in Columbia, Tennessee? Nothing. It's boring here. Hey, you know, I've got a funny feeling you might be able to stir things up.

Angela, what do you think about this trial? I think for as being in her situation before, or if not worse, I think it's good for her to speak up, but I want to know why she didn't have no panties on. Wait, I

did not know she didn't have on underwear. Whoa, this is a whole new fact. She was supposed to be. Oh, wait a minute a whole new fact. She was supposed to be. Oh, wait a minute, wait a minute. It was supposed to be. Hold on, hold on. Jackie is like twirling around in a circle in her chair with wheels on it. She's holding up a sign at me that says thong, T-H-O-N-G.

I can only assume. Are you saying she had on thong underwear? Anal floss? Okay. That counts as underwear. Well, what I read, Nancy, well, what I read was it was bare butt. And I don't know.

To me, that would be that she didn't have panties on. And if you're walking around with no panties on, then that's not very good anyways. Well, wait, wait, wait. Is there something wrong? Either way, I don't think anybody has any right. Is there something wrong with going commando? Did I miss something?

No. Well, no, no. Nothing wrong. Nobody asked you, Jason Oceans. There's nothing wrong with that. Such a piehole, Oceans. Hold on just a minute. We're talking about ladies' underwear here.

Okay, hold on. Let's just go back to the whole commando thing because I have recently found out John David has been running around without underwear possibly the whole summer because I haven't washed any for like two weeks. I'm like, John David, where's your underwear? And he ran away laughing. Okay. And so in addition to wearing his underwear inside out and backwards all summer,

Alexis, this is something fun for you to look forward to when your baby gets about two years older. My son does the same thing. I don't get it. What is it with boys? But, you know, that's a whole nother. My child doesn't ever want to work. That's a whole nother can of worms.

I can't. I have to be a shrink. No, not just one shrink. I need a whole team from Vienna to figure that thing out. But hold on. Hold on. Back to Taylor Swift. shrink i need a whole team from vienna to figure that thing out but hold on hold on back to taylor swift it's my you know let's go to the underwear expert alexis teres chuck with the radar online.com i think both things can be true which is what uh my old judge judge luther alverson would tell a

jury every jury trial it is your duty to make all witnesses speak the truth and impede perjury to no one. In other words, can it all both be true and nobody's lying? And I say, yes, it can. I think Angela in Columbia, Tennessee can be right that it was bare skin and she could be wearing a thong in that, Alexis, you take it from here totally right she could have been wearing a thong and could be one of the you know a skimpy one it doesn't even have to be the tiny tiny g string it could have a little bit more but you still have thinking about him putting his hand on her oh okay and she has a dress on and his hand shouldn't be below her clothes at any time ever we shouldn't be touching her period except smiling for a photo and maybe putting his arm around her waist or around her shoulder for the photo so okay back to angela angela i think we

have solved the thong versus commando issue what else do you think about the trial? First of all, what's your favorite song by Taylor Swift? Um, hang on. The new, the one that was in Fifty Shades of Grey movie. I did not see that because it's not Disney. Okay, now

any kid... No, that is not Disney. The Fifty Shades of Grey is not Disney. It's been that long since you've seen a movie. What girl? Uh-uh. The new one. The new one. Oh, that second one.

The reboot. Okay. Sadly, I did not see that either. Yes. Okay. That was a good song. But I did rent Around the World in 80 Days, Night Before Last, which is a Disney movie, and forced the twins to watch it.

They loved it. Okay, so there was a Taylor Swift song in that movie? Yes, the opening of the movie. Yeah, that. That's it. That's it. What, Alexis? I don't want to live forever.

Well, I do, because I've got to make sure I get children through graduate school and married, etc. So, yes, I'll go with that living forever thing. But, you know, the one I like is haters going to hate, hate, hate, hate, hate. Da, da, da, da, da. Oh, I heard Jason Ocean

singing along, so somebody has been listening. Shake it off, shake it off. I like that one, too. That's a good one. Sorry, guys. Just a little detour. Just a little detour in the trial.

So back to our original question. Angela. Okay. Columbia, Tennessee, who do you think they're going to put on the jury? I'm not sure. I'm kind of iffy now because the guy got kicked off. So I don't know what's going to happen now but i read while i got it she's only asking for one dollar which shows that she's just trying to

make a statement and a point at about what happened to her which is good because she don't need the money anyways and yeah i believe you should go she She should be doing what she's doing because it's only right for her and every other female. And here's the other thing, Angela. Angela, what about this? This woman is probably losing so much money by having to come to court every day. Yes, ma'am. She can't be making appearances. She can't be doing all the things she does.

This is a hit for her. And she's set to make $1. Jackie, you're holding up a sign that says money going to charity. She said that any award that she gets will go to charity. But the $1? Alexis, what's the truth? Is it $1 or money to charity? What's the truth? It's supposed to be $1? Alexis, what's the truth? Is it $1 or money to charity? What's the truth?

It's supposed to be $1. I just read it. $1 in the court documents. Yeah. But the jury thought the jury could give her more. Jackie, you're wrong. Okay, I'm looking at the voir dire form. Yes, that's the way we say it.

Have you ever seen any pictures related to the lawsuit uh have you formed any opinion do you have an opinion of mueller do you have an opinion of taylor swift do you listen to denver area country radio oh this guy could be a little bit of a celeb in his own area some people may know him in that area more than they know Taylor Swift. So that's something for them to take into account. Have you intentionally listened to Taylor Swift through a free online service? Have you paid money to download her? Have you read articles about her? I've read a ton of articles on RadarOnline.com. So Alexis, did you say her mother is her manager? Her mother is part of her management team. She keeps everything in house. It's all the Taylor

Swift Corporation. She doesn't have outside publicists or managers. She keeps everything in house. So it was her mother that contacted the radio station and told them about Mr. Mueller and complained about what happened after, you know, he was kicked out of the concert. He didn't get to stay, didn't watch. He and his girlfriend were kicked out and they complained. And then he lost his job. Now the police, the police were not called according to reports because Taylor Swift wanted to keep the whole situation, quote, discreet and quiet and confidential. I wonder why. Why do you think that was, Alexis?

Why do you think she did not bring police in on it? I think that she was probably embarrassed, right? This man has grabbed her. She has every protection in place in the world, right? She lives with security guards. She has people around her at all times. And still this man was able to grab her and there was nothing she could do. She was in the middle of a photo shoot with all of her guests. Then she had to go up on stage and perform.

She had a job to do. She was in the middle of her job, a very tight scheduled job. And it was embarrassing. And so she wanted to and it was embarrassing. And so she wanted to handle it very quietly. And the man waited two years before he decided to make it public. Jason Oceans, one could argue that he was seeking attention by filing this lawsuit. His lawyer, Gabriel McFarlane, actually argued Ocean, in previous hearings, that Mueller was the victim of mistaken identity. How can that be?

He's in a photo with her, and she immediately complained to her staff and had him kicked out of the concert. How can it be mistaken identity? Was that a big boo-boo? Maybe it was the girlfriend who was in the picture who grabbed uh who grabbed taylor that's not uncommon in today's society women grabbing women men grabbing men i don't know what his attorney's uh you know intent was to create that idea i'm still too focused on the champion of women's rights and at the moment and it's two years later and in response you know seemingly

a termination did you just try to blame the girlfriend did you just try to blame the girl i was following along with what you gave me nancy mistaken identity if there's three people in the picture you know who else could it have been besides him or her i thought he meant by that that it was some other person that had taken a photo with her and she mistakenly in retrospect thought it was him and not some other dude. That's what it is. Here's a little news flash.

Women have been grabbing other women's rear ends for a really long time. It's not something new. Just so you know, that gives you something fun to think about, Jason Ocean. It's also no different when a woman is pregnant. Who touches the pregnant woman? Men are less likely to do that than women.

So I don't know whose hand was on there. I don't know in the moment of the photo shoot and backstage and the timeline in our own head. I don't know what was going on or what counsel was thinking. But sure, you know, as a defense attorney, it's all about reasonable doubt, and that's what— although in this case, it's not the same standard because it's not a criminal case, as we saw with O.J. But nonetheless, you've got to work with everything you can to manipulate the jury to your thoughts. You're on first-name basis with Orenthal James Simpson again, I see. Okay, you know what, Jason Oceans, that's why I love you,

because you say things like maybe it was the girlfriend that grabbed Taylor Swift's rear end, or what was that other thing you said? The gap time. See? See, Alexis? See, I would never have thought that it could have been the girlfriend, or probably no reasonable thinking juror would think that. But see, that's why we have defense attorneys, Alexis Terrestriuk.

It's true. And one of the things, though, about this case is what you were saying is this guy, Mueller, has actually said there was somebody else in the meet and greet that is the one that grabbed Taylor's butt and it wasn't him and she confused him with this other man. Right. Okay, jury selection underway as we wait to find out what happens in the Taylor Swift rear-end grab trial. Jason Oceans, Alexis Tereszczuk, Alan Duke, everyone thank you for being with us, but especially to you for being with us here on Sirius XM seeking justice Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend this is an iHeart podcast