Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - TD: Suspect in Idaho Student Murders Flies Home to Face Lady Justice

Episode Date: January 5, 2023

Accused killer Bryan Kohberger is back in Idaho after being extradited from Pennsylvania. Kohberger has also made his first appearance in an Idaho courtroom, and the probable cause affidavit in his arrest has been released.  Kohberger was shackled, wearing a red jumpsuit and a jacket during the flight. One stop was made during the flight, and that airport was evacuated so Kohberger could use the facilities.   Joining Nancy Grace today: Dale Carson - High Profile Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent, Former Police Officer (Miami-Dade County), Author: "Arrest-Proof Yourself"  Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills, CA); New Netflix show: 'Bling Empire' (Beverly Hills) Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University; Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet" and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan"  Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert, Founder: Cold Case Investigative Research Institute in Atlanta, GA; Twitter: @ColdCaseTips; Host of new podcast: "Zone 7"  Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation; Former Homicide Detective; Worked over 300 Homicides in his 25-year career; Host of YouTube channel, "The Interview Room" Dave Mack - CrimeOnline Investigative Reporter  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We have touchdown. That's right. The suspect in the murders of four Idaho University students has touched down in the jurisdiction where this case will go to

a jury trial. Now what? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. First of all, take a listen to our friends at KREM2. Brian Koberger touching down at the Pullman Moscow Regional Airport just after 6 tonight on board a Pennsylvania State Police plane which traveled across the country.

A day after, Koberger waived extradition. The 28-year-old murder suspect wearing a black coat over his red jumpsuit, spent less than a minute on the tarmac, moving from the single-engine plane to a sheriff's pickup truck. The windows inside were covered up. That truck was escorted from the airport through downtown Moscow. Koberger arrived at the jail within a matter of minutes. We saw a garage door open and immediately close once the pickup was inside. A large crowd of students and Moscow residents gathered to watch. Less than an hour after landing on the Palouse, Koberger was booked into the Latah County Jail, charged with four counts of murder and one count of burglary. He's currently being held without bond. It has all happened so incredibly quickly. 47 days went by from the time of the murders of those four beautiful,

young Idaho University students until the time of an arrest. And we're learning a lot about that arrest and the intense tracking conducted by not only local police, but the FBI as well, as they tracked the suspect, Koberger, across the country, 2,500 miles in the Elantra that had been sought after by law enforcement all across this country. But what we know right now is that Koberger was flown on a 14-seater Pilatus across the country, a private plane that apparently belonged to Pennsylvania State Police. It touched down once in Champaign, Illinois, at a fixed operation flight service.

At that time, everyone at the flight provider, as a private provider, was evacuated from the building, obviously, for the security and the safety of everyone else, and just in case, Koeberger tried to make an escape. We know that

there was a brief refueling, and then he made his way onward to Pullman, where he will be tried. Was it safe? Yes, it was. The entire flight, he was surrounded by armed guards. He was never taken out of shackles the entire trip, and now he's where he needs to be we have just gotten the first mugshot originating from that location take a listen now to our friends at king five a turboprop pilatus that is registered to the pennsylvania state police just touched down at moscow pullman regional airport after quite a cross-country journey to safely but at the same time efficiently get the 28-year-old murder

suspect on the ground now in Washington soon to be in Idaho to face a judge and formally be indicted on those murder charges and a single burglary charge. What you're seeing now is the plane that has taxied off of the active runway as law enforcement work to get this suspect off of the active runway as law enforcement were to get this suspect off of the plane into a vehicle where he will be transported to a county jail where he will be housed for the night before seeing a judge the following day law enforcement in pennsylvania the fbi washington state and idaho being very cautious in this process to not reveal too many details. The suspect, Brian Koberger, wore some type of protective vest and was under armed escort. We know that the pit stop in Champaign, Illinois involved a fixed base operator at Willard Airport. It was Flight Star, one of many private plane providers. Many people argue that this was

just so Coburger could use the bathroom. That's not true. The plane probably had enough fuel, but just as a safety precaution, they also fueled up there. Interesting that the entire fixed base operator was evacuated. People had to go outside while Koberger was brought inside. Long story short, he's back in the jurisdiction where he will be tried. And as soon as he appears in court, we will have all the answers from that probable cause affidavit. Take a listen to Janelle Burrell at CBS3. Man accused of killing four University of Idaho students back in Idaho this morning to appear in court on murder charges.

Early this morning, investigators releasing this mugshot of 28-year-old Brian Kohlberger late last night. Idaho law enforcement vehicles escorted him to the county jail there in Moscow. It was last Friday that police arrested Koberger in the Poconos after a nationwide manhunt. Meanwhile, authorities in Indiana, they have released new video of the first traffic stop involving Koberger and his father on December 15th. They drove from Washington to Pennsylvania on a trip that was reportedly pre-planned. Straight out to one, an all-star panel joining us to help us analyze what we are receiving,

information fast and furious. Cheryl McCollum joining me, founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute, currently on a police force. You can find her at coldcasecrimes.org. Cheryl, thank you. Cheryl also hosts a brand new hit podcast called Zone 7. Cheryl, everybody was raising H-E-double-L when this guy,

Coburger, and his father on a prearranged flight, dad flies across the country 2,500 miles, picks up son in the white Elantra in question, and they begin the journey across country back to Pennsylvania and the family home in the Poconos. Everybody had a fit when it came out that they were stopped for traffic violations, not once but twice, within the span of about 10 minutes and you and I were like hmm wow isn't that quite the coinkydink coincidence that they're stopped two times in Hancock County and Indiana and they're not given a ticket when's the last time you got pulled over in the interstate

you didn't get a ticket well I've never been pulled over on the interstate and you didn't get a ticket? Well, I've never been pulled over on the interstate, but nobody, nobody gets away. If you're speeding or tailgating as these two were accused of doing, you get a ticket and a stern warning. That didn't happen. And there's a reason why, Cheryl McCollum. That's right. And it was two different agencies. It was the Sheriff's Department and the Indiana State Police. It's what they call a whisper stop. It was the Sheriff's Department and the Indiana State Police. It's what they call a whisper stop. It's when the feds tell local law enforcement who's in their area and, hey, can you find a legitimate reason to stop them, usually a traffic violation, and peep in the car, ask them a few questions. Do you see any injuries to his hands or arms? Does he give you a bogus reason of why he's traveling in the break when he's going? Did he admit to where he worked?

All of those things are going to be pertinent. Can I just give you a little advice since you didn't ask when you're conducting your hit podcast, Zone 7? Could you please not bury the lead? The FBI asked local police, local sheriffs, to pull him and his dad over. And this is on December 15. So they could hopefully get video of the suspect's hands and arm. Oh, absolutely. That's exactly what they were doing.

Nancy, this agency, the Moscow Police Department, the Indiana State Police, the Idaho State Police, the FBI, they have played this thing so beautifully. It is just an orchestra of experts working and it is peerless. While everyone was throwing a big fit about them not arresting them for a quadruple murder, this was all part of the plan of not only the FBI, but the local police in the jurisdiction of the murder in Idaho to gather evidence. They didn't need them to get a ticket for tailgating. They needed, they needed video or photos of Coburgers hands and arm which they got I might add. And speaking of the stops we have that sound and footage. Take a listen to our cut two three seven. Power Cut 237. Oh, you guys did? Yeah. Yeah. You guys talked about a trooper? We don't have any SUVs.

No. It was a county guy. Was it like a black SUV? Yeah. Okay. All right. All right. Wow, Dale Carson. it was a county guy was it like a black guy should be yeah okay all right all right wow dale carson dale carson joining me high profile attorney out of jacksonville and former fbi agent

author of arrest proof yourself at dalecarsonlaw.com dale that guy was really chatty and nice for a pullover on the interstate he's standing on the side of the interstate with traffic flying by him at 95 mph. And he's like, hey, you know what? When you're going this speed, you need to stay six or seven car lengths back. And actually having a conversation with the guy. Did they not understand how wrong that picture was, Dale Carson? The whole time, he's getting body cam video of Koberger's arm and hand. Sure. And when the inclement weather is coming in, they've also put a GPS monitor on the car

to make sure they don't lose him. But think about this from a defense perspective. Did he act unusually frightened or scared when he was stopped? Did he flee? He didn't do any of those things because he's not guilty. I don't know about you, but did you see the look on his face when the cops pulled him over? Because I thought he looked shocked and afraid. I mean, Chris McDonough joining me, director of Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective. I found him on the interview room on YouTube.

Chris, did you see the stricken look on coberger's face and i'm talking about brian christopher coberg not the father absolutely i mean a deer in the headlights right and with a lot of technical things moving here on this traffic stop we also have to consider did they need a photograph of him for a witness to put him in a six pack in a lineup? So that is another potential reason as

well. Now I don't think that's it and I'll tell you why because they had his student photo they had other photos they had plenty of photos of Koberger at that point. I'm talking about the dad. Okay, yeah. If they're thinking through who's this other guy in the car, meaning, you know, knowing it probably was family, but there's always that unknown. So they want to get eyes on that.

Gotcha. But I do believe he had quite a stricken look on his face when the cops pulled him over. Go ahead. Joining me, Joe Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet and host of Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. Go ahead, Joe Scott. Yeah, I got to say, Nancy, I think there's another peripheral reason they may have stopped him. They wouldn't see if this guy was going to bolt. They wouldn't see if he was going to, you know, put his foot down on the pedal and run off. And again, you know, they're trying to measure what they're doing here.

This is an unknown, as the other guests have said. This is an unknown. But that's another factor here. They stopped this guy twice. And it's like an experiment where you're adding another stimulus into the experiment to see what's going to happen because it's unpredictable. Keep in mind, this guy is alleged to have slaughtered four people. I can only imagine kind of how these officers' guts felt inside if they were aware of what they were dealing with. Nancy, if I could also jump in about his facial expression.

Sure. With me is Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst out of Beverly Hills. She is at drbethanymarshall.com. You can also see her on Netflix, Bling Empire. Go ahead, Dr. Bethany. Have you ever noticed that the guiltier the perp, the wider their eyes become?

It's the fake innocent look. You know, he probably, when he was pulled over, he felt shocked. He probably had that fight or flight response where you want to evacuate your bowels, your heart rate speeds up, you know, you've been caught. And then,

bam, the wide eyes, you know, these guys who kill their wives, and then they show up at the funeral looking all wide eyed. I think that's the other thing I noticed, not in his other like arrest and being let out by the police, but certainly when he was pulled over playing the innocent guy. Yeah, I would say that that is exactly the expression he had. Now, guys, I am pilloried often online, which I try not to pay any attention to, about convicting people before they go to trial. I think it should probably go unsaid, but maybe I have to say it again. Of course, there's the presumption of innocence. Of course, Koberger is going to go to trial. And of course, at this juncture, we don't know all the evidence or what the defense is going to say.

Maybe they'll prove the DNA is wrong if there is DNA. We don't know yet. We are talking about the facts as we know them right now. We are not in a court of law. What's more troubling is his alleged comments while he's in custody in Pennsylvania. If those spontaneous statements... Wait, wait, wait. Before you even start talking, Del Carson, about what a female inmate said. First of all, I didn't know that anybody housed men and women together. Never heard of that, which at first blush struck me as being wrong. Then I looked at her record of, let's see, domestic violence on Christmas Day, I believe believe it was and I found what she said that Koberger said to be fantastical things like I

cut them I'm gonna cut you too yes I'm a creeper come in my cell and find out oh that didn't jive with what we already know about him his classmates who were probably more believable and trustworthy than a fellow inmate saying he was very shy and very quiet and very socially awkward. This female inmate alleges he tried to expose himself. I didn't, I don't pay any attention to any of that. I don't believe it because it's too inconsistent. And the jailhouse warden said that didn't happen that's not at all the way it was set up so i don't believe okay you know what you go ahead cheryl please i want to go by facts here that we know when he was arrested it was without any incident when he was stopped not once but twice by law enforcement it was without any incident he wouldn't even answer

a direct question his dad had to answer for him. A simple thing, where are you headed? Why didn't he say home for Christmas to Pennsylvania? He didn't. He couldn't even answer something direct. There is no way he made the statements that he did about law enforcement or tried to expose himself. Didn't happen.

All right, are you done for just right now, Cheryl? I am. Okay. I know that's not true, by the way, but moving, going forward, that's not the only body cam sound and video we've got. We have the other stuff. And I mean, why it didn't dawn on them. Please, anybody jump in, even you, Cheryl McCollum.

Wow. I've been pulled over twice in 10 minutes, and I didn't get a ticket. This is a miracle. This is quite the coincidence. No, it's not. It's orchestrated by the FBI. Let's take a listen to what we can make out of this body cam. Listen.

How you doing? How y'all doing today? Good, good. Take a look at your driver's license real quick, if I could. See, he's right up on that van man. He's right up on the back end of that van. I pulled you over for tailgating. Is this your car?

Okay. Cool. Where are you headed? We're going to, um, actually, where it's beside me. Well, we're coming from WSU. And, uh, we're staying in early. What's WSU? Washington State University, basically.

And we're listening to the state. That's very important. That is watching everything. Okay, I'm having a hard time hearing you because of the traffic. So you're coming from Washington State University? Yeah. And you're going where? Oh.

Oh, okay. We're slightly punching because we've been driving for hours. Hours, days. Hours, we've been driving for hours. Almost a day. Wow, I've got to tell you something. That cop, as well as the first one, one was a sheriff, one was a cop, I think, they deserve an Academy Award.

Number one, whenever I've been pulled over, which sadly has been often, the cop says two words, license registration. That's it. No, hey, how you doing doing where are you going today and then the whole line hey what's WSU I've never seen a cop by the time they're pulling you over they are fed up with you and everybody else on the road because everybody's speeding causing accidents they're drunk they're high you know it's just the cops are sick of it because they see it all day long every day. So they're not there to chat. They're there to get your

license and registration and give you a ticket or take you to jail one or the other and have your car impounded. But did it never dawn on these people, Dr. Bethany, that lightning is striking twice and everybody walks away unscathed? No, Nancy, because criminals are stupid. And there's a really interesting research project I was reading that shows that 89% of criminals do not feel that they're going to be caught. Actually, that actually may be accurate because most criminals get away with crime. They do. As much as we see crime stories on TV,

most of them actually do get away. There's not enough cops. There's not enough jails. There's not enough halfway houses to deal. You wouldn't do it if you thought you were going to get caught. Come on. Yeah. Okay. I think I agree with what you just said. The big news right now is

Koberger, the prime and, as we believe, the only suspect in the murders of four beautiful University of Idaho students, is back home in the correct jurisdiction, home from Mommy and Daddy's house in Pennsylvania, back to Idaho, where he will be tried. There's no way there's going to be a plea entered in this case unless it's for the max. And I remind everybody, this is a death penalty state. Guys, take a listen to our cut for our friend Craig Copeland and Joyce Taylor.

The man accused of murdering four University of Idaho students is back in the Northwest tonight, landing just minutes ago at the airport in Pullman. Get a live look outside the jail now in Moscow, Idaho. That's where the suspect, 28-year-old Brian Koberger, will be taken. It's about seven miles from the airport. So he is being escorted by Pennsylvania State Police after being arrested there on Friday. A Fox Nation exclusive. An international pop star stripped of human rights. How does that happen? Easier than you think. Join us for a deep dive into Britney Spears' conservatorship.

Trapped, streaming now on fox nation joining me joe scott morgan dr bethany marshall dill carson chris mcdonough and crime online's dave mack cheryl uh did you hear the way that the trooper was extending the conversation, basically keeping the defendant talking, trying to get a good shot of his hand and arm. I really admired that. And again, this is not a search that is protected by the Constitution of the Fourth Amendment. Anything that a private citizen could see is open game for law enforcement. Now, if you're going to break into a house or go into somebody's trunk, then you have to have a warrant. But if I could look in that car and see his arm as I walked by, the cop can too. So I know everybody's been looking at this.

Cheryl, Chris, do you notice anything about his hand or arm? I didn't really. I mean, I saw one thing that could have been either a scrape or a shadow. I really couldn't make out for sure. But again, there's multiple things going on simultaneously here. There's also the plain view doctrine. So that officer, as he approached that car, looked in the back seat, looked at the dad. That's what plain view is what i just talked

about i know i'm just reiterating he was doing that as well it wasn't just the hands singularly he was doing multiple things he was also locking him in to certain statements and he's not going to be able to unring that bell so again this thing was done so extraordinarily perfect you know it was a real irony to chris mcDonough joining me from the Cold Case Foundation and the interview room is that unsolicited Brian Koberger says, yeah, what about that shooting back at WSU? And there was a SWAT standoff where an armed person was shot during a SWAT standoff. The irony that this guy accused of stabbing dead four beautiful young people unarmed in their sleep, three of them women in their own beds. And he's going, wow, you know, we just got away from

this, this shooting during a SWAT standoff is what he's talking about. That's pretty ironical, is it not, Chris McDonough? Yeah, I mean, classic deflection, right, Nancy? I mean, here, you know, he's raising an issue of a not, you know, national case when, national case when the officer is questioning about it, going, well, I haven't heard about that. But had he, to your point, made a comment such as, well, we're leaving where those four college students were murdered for the holidays. We're going back to family, yada, yada. No, he didn't do any of that.

In fact, he stayed miles away from that conversation. He sure did, just like he did in classes, according to classmates. Go ahead, Dr. Bethany. People who are guilty always talk too much. And when he brought up, hey, what about that shooting? He's trying to distance himself from crime. He heard about, oh, I know about the shooting. I was not a part of the shooting.

I'm not one of them, I know about the shooting. I was not a part of the shooting. I'm not one of them. I'm just the observer. So, you know, the wide-eyed look, you know, talking too much already at the very beginning, he's distancing himself from crime. But what we know about him is in fact, when he was a student of criminology, he was obsessed with crime, i mean he put out that survey wanting to know what criminals thought before during and after the commission of a crime so he was already getting tips and he was getting excited about the possible execution he also wanted to know how they picked their victims possibly because well i think most likely because he was already engaged in victim selection himself so he was finding engaged in victim selection himself.

So he was finding a community of criminals online, just like pedophiles find a community of other pedophiles online. You know, he was congregating. You know, I think it may have been Brian Koberger's dad that brought that up. And again, the irony of he's sitting next to someone accused of murdering four defenseless people. Little did the dad know, or did the dad know? We don't know yet, but we do know the dad went there, they changed the tag on the car for whatever reason, and drove across the country in a white Elantra. They came from nine miles away from the murder scene.

You'd have to be under a rock in a cave in a country far, far away. Not to know, cause we're looking for a white Elantra, just like the one your son is driving. That's food for thought. But for right now, take a listen to our cut three, our friends at ABC 30. We're getting our first look at the new booking photo of Brian Koberger. He's a suspect accused of killing four University of Idaho students in their sleep. Koberger was extradited from Pennsylvania back to Idaho late last night to face murder charges. The plane carrying the suspect first arrived at a regional airport in Washington State

before officers escorted him off the tarmac and took him back to a jail in Idaho. Koberger's arrival in Idaho means that the court documents filed in his case should soon be unsealed, perhaps as early as this morning, which could shed more light on this case. So the first mugshot is out. He looks much the same as he does in every other photo. But I want you to also hear Sebastian Robertson from King 5 with the big question. So that is the big unknown at this point. What do police have on him? When did they know this? And how did they place him at the scene of the crime? We're expecting those answers within 24 hours. Police essentially have to put a paper together, an argument that says this is why we

believe this is our guy in this case. That's called a probable cause affidavit that document won't be made public until he faces a judge and he is formally arraigned on those charges so as soon as that happens we should get quite a bit of details that will tell us what police knew when they knew it and that may be why he chose to waive extradition come back to Idaho voluntarily so that he himself and his attorneys, his public defenders can find out what police have on him. What do they have? With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now, aside from what the state has on him. We already know that his parents are shelling out for a crime scene reconstructionist. That's not going to be cheap. We also know that the defense has sent a team of five investigators into the murder house on King Road. What are they doing in there? Straight out to Joe Scott Morgan joining me,

Professor of Forensics. What would the team of defense investigators be doing at the crime scene? They're basically reprocessing it in the light most favorable to Brian Koberger. Yeah, they are. They're trying to, you know, essentially go in and document what remains within that, despite that the scene has been altered at this point. Remember, and I've talked about this before, it was, I think that this was a major mistake on the part of the authorities to say that they were going to allow people to take, quote unquote, sentimental items out of that scene. Everything that is in that scene should have remained pristine. You saw it done in Parkland, and you knew who the perpetrator was there. They didn't know at that time.

So now the scene has been altered at this point because you cannot, you can't undo that. I don't care how many photographs they've taken. Now you've given the defense, you've given them ammunition at this point in time and they're going to make hay with this i can guarantee you it would not i don't understand what the rush was at the time probably pressure from families would be my guess well maybe so but again you know i have the ultimate respect for the families i am so sorry for their loss and everything they've been through but a year from, as this is going through the courts, that could be problematic.

That items were removed from the murder scene and the defense was not able to look at them. You're absolutely right. That's what the defense team is doing right now. They have put in a team of five investigators to reprocess the murder scene in the entire home at 1122 King. Now, I want you to take a listen to our cut 239. This is Mike Mancuso, the first assistant district attorney in Pennsylvania. Listen, it is a quirk. Apparently, it's not in the norm of the states I'm familiar with that Idaho does not release

their probable cause affidavit in support of their arrest warrant until after their defendant is brought or returned to that state. But having read those documents and the sealed affidavits of probable cause, I definitely believe that one of the main reasons the defendant chose to waive extradition and hurry his return back to Idaho was the need to know what was in those documents. So that's a significant development. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What we know is that once Koberger appears in court, the probable cause affidavit will be unsealed. And what do you expect Dale Carson to be in the probable cause affidavit will be unsealed. And what do you expect Dale Carson to be in the probable cause affidavit? Well, it's going to be the investigative report, and it's going to show

what they did, when they did it, and where the information came from that links Koberger to the killings. You know, there were defensive wounds, so there's likely DNA under fingernails or things of that nature that would lead directly to that connection. And we will know that as soon as these are reigned in the defense as all the information that the state has. But certainly the state has an interest, as does the defense, in delaying those revelations. And it'll be interesting to see whether or not they file a motion to keep it sealed as it apparently is now. We also know that Koberger's family was in the courtroom when the extradition hearing was taking place. It was very short. It was to the point. But we know that the family was crying. The mother, the sisters were beside

themselves. I'm just curious because I believe that everybody connected to Koberger is going to fall under suspicion. Did they aid him? Did they abet him while he was on the run? I certainly do not believe in any way that his family had anything to do with the killings. But did they help him cover up? Those are great investigative points. Harbor him. I think that's Chris McDonough. Go ahead. Yeah, Nancy, those are excellent investigative points.

And this is going back to that traffic stop. At this point, we all know there are multiple teams chasing every one of those angles right now. They're going to want to find out what were the family's movements? When were they contacted by this individual, their son? When was the ticket purchased for the airline? What was the communication in relationship to that? And so the CAS team, the cellular analysis survey team from the FBI, they're going to have all that data. And they're going to overlay that data in relationship to the timeline here. So that critical comment that you just made is still on the radar in my opinion

take a listen to our cut 228 this is noah bolter from khq former fbi agent richard colco says coberger's charges mean anyone who has been around him could be under a microscope there's going to be a lot of interviews that still need to be done. Now they know where he went to school. They can go talk to all of his former classmates, former professors, neighbors, wherever he lived. They'll do that there. They'll do that in Pennsylvania. Labar says Kohlberger's biggest concerns surround how his family is handling the aftermath of his arrest. He obviously has concerns for them. And and really he's a little ashamed that they have to go through this process. The family is totally in shock. They say their son, their brother, would never have anything to do with a murder, much less a quadruple murder. Take a listen to the chief public defender there

in the Poconos, Jason Labar in our cut 234. They don't believe it to be Brian. They can't believe this. They're obviously shocked. This is certainly completely out of character, the allegations. And really, they're just trying to be supportive with the understanding these four families have suffered loss. So they're sympathetic towards that. And that's why it should remain really private. And they don't want to try this case in the court of public opinion.

And without knowing the facts and evidence, as of right now, they don't really want to comment on things. And now take a listen to our cut to 3-2. Investigators processing Koberger's white Hyundai Elantra, they say was spotted on surveillance near the crime scene. Koberger and his father driving the car 2,500 miles from Washington to Pennsylvania, arriving at the family home a month after the murderers. I can tell you based on experience that cars, months and sometimes years old,

we've been able to find trace amounts of blood and DNA in a vehicle, despite the fact that naked eye could not see it. Back to Cheryl McCollum joining us from the Cold Case Research Institute. You're hearing our friends at ABC. Yes, he has had the car for now over a month after the murders. What, if anything, what trace evidence could be left behind, Cheryl? There could be drops of blood. There could be hair from one of the victims. There could be hair from the dog. There could be left behind, Cheryl. There could be drops of blood. There could be hair from one of the victims. There could be hair from the dog. There could be computers in the car. There could be mud in the car. There could be all kinds of things associated with that area, specifically even the parking lot. They're looking for anything in that vehicle. And if you remember

like Ted Bundy took the seats out of his car and was literally hosing it down, it doesn't appear that that was necessarily done here. If you look at the outside of the car, it's still filthy. So there could be evidence even on the outside of the car. Remember, O.J. Simpson had one drop of blood with all the blood in that one drop. So you're going to have multiple victims here that were killed at different times. And those blood droplets could have different blood intermingled to tell you again, who was killed in what order, but also it could be in his vehicle. Well, you're right.

Cheryl McCollum, you're 100% right again. So Joseph Scott Morgan explained how they will go about this tedious process. We're saying what's going to be in the affidavit. This is evidence that may not be in the PC affidavit because it hasn't been gathered yet. They're doing that right now as we speak. What exactly are they doing and how are they doing it, Joe Scott? Well, I'll tell you this, that car ain't going back to Idaho. The FBI has that car. They're probably processing it at their facility near Philly or Scranton. All of these places have these types of garages. They can take them in.

They are taking this thing apart. They're taking the tires off. They're going to take the headliner out. They'll probably take, well, they're going to remove the seats. They'll take out the dash. They'll take out the steering wheel. They're going to pull up the carpet. And they're going to go over this thing from stem to stern.

What's really fascinating that folks might not know is that there's technology out there. I know that Cheryl can chime in on this with MVAC, where you think that you've gotten everything out if you're attempting to clean an environment. But when you apply MVAC technology, which is a vacuum cleaner essentially for crime scene processing it goes down deep into the strata so anything that's soaked in and i have held that car as a role in crime scene just understand that that when if that car was used as a conveyance for him that night when he when he left when he left moscow and transported himself back to pullman anything in that scene would have transferred there to that car. And there's no way you can get everything.

So they're going to be pulling it up right now. And you make a good point. They still don't know what they have at this point. They just have gotten their hands on the car. So this is going to be a developing story all the way along. What I'm asking about is the exact process, how they do it. Do they take a box cutter, for instance, and cut the carpet out of the car? Then they put the carpet under a microscope

bit by bit. Do they rub luminol inside the car, down in the nooks and crannies where the gear shift may be, or where the radio is, where you touch panels, the light switch. Remember in Teresa Avery's murder, excuse me, Teresa Hallbeck's murder, at the hands of Stephen Avery, who shot to fame in Making a Murder, he actually moved her car from where she had parked it, when she came to take photos for an auto trader magazine he moved her car to the far back end of his salvage lot and and covered it up tried to obscure it but can you just imagine that hulking killer hunched over the wheel his sweat we believe something that offered up dna was found on the ignition of her car. Yeah, it could be. And his sweat could be present.

I want to make this point clear. His sweat could be present at the scene in Moscow or Moscow as well. But they're going to use alternative lighting sources like infrared, those sorts of things. There's all kinds of format we can do relative to photography inside the thing. And this is not a blunt event. This is almost like doing surgery within this car. They're going to be there. They'll have a plan when they go through everything because we're talking about it in a molecular level, Nancy.

Anything can be missed very easily. So they will take their time. And he had to have blood on his person when he left that scene. Then he gets in the car. What did he touch? I mean, I'm talking about the steering wheel, the flasher, the light switch,

the locking the door, the seat belt. Don't you know something could be on that seat belt if he put it on? Because you know he didn't want to get arrested. But speaking of what is going to be in that PC affidavit, what they do have, what they don't have. This is one thing I believe they do have. Take a listen to our cut 233, our friends at Crime Online. A source close to the investigation drops a bombshell claim that Brian Koberger was stalking the victims for weeks leading up to the murders,

then wore gloves after the quadruple homicide to avoid leaving a trail of evidence. A friend of an investigator says of Koberger, he's not stupid and has been very careful. The source said as Koberger stalked his victims, his cell phone data showed that he was in the same area as his victims with their cell phone locations matching up on multiple occasions in the weeks leading up to their deaths. The source said, not sure if they ever interacted, but his cell phone pings followed their every move for weeks. And Nancy, as we speak, the probable cause affidavit has been released. And even though Koberger's phone did not ping near the home of the murders between 3 a.m. and 5 a.m. on the 13th, phone records clearly indicate at least 12 prior occasions before November 13th, his phone was in the area of the home in the late evening or early morning hours.

That's not all. Police are revealing the recovery of a tan leather knife sheath laying on the bed right next to Maddie Mogan. The sheath had a K-Bar, USMC, and the United States Marine Corps Eagle Globe and anchor insignia stamped on the outside of it. The Idaho State Lab located a single source of male DNA left on the button snap of the knife sheath. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.