Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - TEEN CHEERLEADER FRENZY STABBED BY BOY, 15, DAD TRIES TRACKING APP TO FIND BODY

Starting point is 00:00:00 This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A beautiful young teen cheerleader frenzy stabbed by a teen boy. Dad having to use a tracking app to try to find his girl's body. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Savannah Copeland is a 13-year-old middle schooler in Tennessee.

Starting point is 00:00:37 She has big dreams of becoming a forensic anthropologist and is an all-star athlete, excelling in gymnastics, karate, and cheerleading. But things take a deadly turn when Savannah vanishes in the middle of the night. Can you imagine you wake up in the morning, you get everything ready for your children, and then wake them for breakfast, and your child is not there. That is what this little 13-year-old cheerleader's parents experienced. Listen. She's never gone out as far as I know. You know, I mean, I could look at her life 360 every single day and I could see she didn't sneak out.

Starting point is 00:01:18 She never went out. We never had to worry about that. From our friends at WATE6, Michael Copeland, little 13-year-old Savannah's father, trying to make sense of what happened that horrible night. First of all, Life 360, we've all heard of it. Many people know about it. Many people don't. What it is to Barry Hutchinson joining us, veteran law enforcement and detective, and chief investigator at Berry & Associates Investigative Services. Berry, it's quite an investigative tool, Life 360. Explain.

Starting point is 00:01:54 It can be used to track the movements of whoever the phone belongs to. As you know, Nancy, the cell towers, phones can be pinged on every location wherever the phone sends signals in the triangulation pattern. And it's really, really helpful to track the movements of victims and where they were at particular times to establish motives and everything else involved in the case. Straight out to Lauren Conlon joining us, investigative reporter, co-host, Primetime Crime on YouTube. You can find her at PopCrime.tv. Lauren, thank you for being with us. Explain to me what happened that night because I find it very unusual. This little 13-year-old girl was always where she said she would be, be it at school, at church, at cheerleading practice, on the way between those three locations. Never once had she not been home

Starting point is 00:02:48 when she was supposed to be home. What happened that night? What do we know at the beginning? What did the parents find that morning? What we do know is that, as you mentioned, her parents woke up and she wasn't there. They panicked. I use air tags for my kids, but I have heard Life360 is also amazing. So her dad pulled the app open and he realized that, oh my gosh, she's nearby. She was sort of at this trail by this community pool. Lauren, when you say the trail led alongside a pool, is that the community pool we're talking about? The neighborhood pool, so to speak? Yes, it's the Broadacres neighborhood, Nancy. And if you look online, this neighborhood is described as warm and charming. It's actually a very popular pool

Starting point is 00:03:38 and a popular trail. Okay, I want to talk to Barry Hutchinson again, law enforcement and owner of Barry and Associates Investigative Services. Barry, when you look at Life 360, okay, because I've got two teens. I don't know how this happened, but they just turned 17 and they're always going in different directions. Now I know where they're supposed to be, but this Life 360 is amazing. It can tell you if they're on foot because it shows little sneakers walking. It can tell if they're sitting in a car, even if the car is not moving. It can tell if they're in a moving car and how fast the car is going. And it shows you a map where they're headed, what street they're on. And my children have it on me as well.

Starting point is 00:04:25 So another feature of Life360, Barry Hutchinson, is that if you know the right button to push, it can show you their trail that day. And that's what Lauren Conlon was talking about, the trail. So explain the trail. It almost looks like a digitized footprint line, little dots showing you where they've been. How does it do that, Barry? It's all done by satellite and geofencing. It's a very, very great tool. It shows everything. But one thing I want you to keep in mind also, it doesn't necessarily 100% mean that's where the person was. It means that's where the phone was. Okay, Barry Hutchinson, I don't know how old your children are, but if you

Starting point is 00:05:12 have a child that's a teen, I guarantee you their phone is with them. Unless, actually you're right, Barry, unless it's been physically taken away from them. So Lauren Conlon joining me, investigative reporter, Lauren, you're telling me that the dad opens up the Life360 app trying to find out where is she? Savannah's not in her bed. And he looks at where she's been because apparently her phone by that time was dead. What happened exactly the night before she disappears? Listen. Getting a call that his daughter is missing, Michael Copeland heads back home to search for Savannah. Using the Life360 app that shows where the phone goes, they could see the path that Savannah took and at what time. The app shows the family that Savannah went missing

Starting point is 00:06:03 between midnight and 2 30 a.m., but does not show her exact location. Starting in the general location, the family goes door to door asking if someone has a doorbell camera that might have seen what direction Savannah was going in to no avail. Lauren Collin, that is heartbreaking. So the parents see this trail, the dad does, and they start walking the trail door to door asking people, have you seen Savannah? photos on their phone and any other identifying features that they can show people immediately and to always know what their children are wearing, what their backpack looks like, anything about them. Now, tell me about this. So here it is. First thing in the morning, dad goes to work.

Starting point is 00:06:59 He gets the call. Savannah's not here. He races home and they start going door to door along this Life 360 trail. Tell me about that. Yes, they were frantically looking for their child and they followed the path that they saw on the app, which was so helpful until they were able to connect with law enforcement and finally go to the trail behind the community pool. What is hard to believe is that many people have actually found fault with a little 13-year-old cheerleader for leaving her home in the middle of the night. Based on her history, as I always say, when you don't know a horse,

Starting point is 00:07:47 look at his track record. I have never once seen my daughter or son or know of them crawling out the window or leaving the house in the middle of the night. Does that mean it will never happen? No, I'm just saying it never has. When you don't know what's going to happen, you look back at what has already happened. In this case, this little girl had never left home before. Savannah Copeland, just 13 years old, all caught up in middle school and cheerleading, had never snuck out before. So why that night of all nights in 13 years, it had never happened. And I submit she was lured out, lured out. Bringing to mind the case of another 13 year old little girl, Nicole Lovell. Nicole Lovell, we believe, was lured out by a phone app or an online dating app such as Kik, K-I-K, lured out of her home. Her mother discovers the next morning she's gone. Nicole also lured out by an older teen boy. She also is stabbed dead and her body found

Starting point is 00:09:14 beside the road. It's a phenomenon. Straight out to Philip Dubay joining us, high profile lawyer out of LA with the public defender's office. Phillip, teen crime. I always have considered teen killers as more dangerous than adults because they don't have a conscience yet. They don't understand the gravity of what they're doing. So they are acting without any moral compass at all. As in the case I just told you about Nicole Lovell, just 13 years old, who was lured out of her home with her mom by an older teen, David Eisenhower, who I believe had been a valedictorian at some small private school before he went on to be an athlete scholar at college. He had just gotten there, 17-ish years old, luring this little girl out because he did not want anyone to find out about their sex relationship. That's what happened right there. So the luring out of a

Starting point is 00:10:27 little girl, 13 years old, like Savannah Copeland, I find it very difficult to understand how people blame the child. Well, first of all, it depends on what you mean by luring out. If the child was being lured out to be killed, then yes, that's a different analysis. But if the child was being lured out to be killed, then yes, that's a different analysis. But if the child was being lured out just to hook up, get to know one another, and it's sort of like that Romeo and Juliet type scenario. At 2.30 in the morning, Dubay, I've told me a jury, nothing good happens after midnight. If you're getting lured out of your bedroom with your parents at midnight, it is not for anything good, Dubay. I mean, do you have children for Pete's sake? No, I understand. No. And this is exactly why, by the way.

Starting point is 00:11:11 Well, there you go. Why did I even ask you a question? You know, when you do have children, you're going to understand there's no good reason for them to be leaving the home at midnight. They were lured and it's not for a good reason. What? To go have milk and cookies? The luring takes two. The child could have said, no, I'm not coming out on a trip. How does a 13-year-old girl need to get to know somebody at 2.30 a.m.? Welcome to the 21st century. Where do you think we are nowadays? Kids communicate online. They communicate through their phones. They want through their phones.

Starting point is 00:11:49 They want to hook up. They want to get to know one another. And mom and dad certainly not going to allow it at that hour. So what do they do? They sneak out. You know, the real question is maybe in your world, maybe you snuck out at 2 a.m., but that's not what we're talking about. Yes, I know about cell phones. I bought my children's cell phones. I pay the monthly bill for their cell phones. Yes, I know about cell phones. But that's a whole nother thing. Having a cell phone and getting lured out of your home where you're everybody's asleep and you have to sneak out at 12 midnight. That is luring.

Starting point is 00:12:21 You know what? I can't talk to you. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Dr. Jory Crawson joining us, a psychologist, faculty at St. Leo University and consultant with the Blue Wall Institute, author of Operation SOS. Dr. Jory, can you talk some sense into Dubay? There's no good reason, no innocent reason for a child just 13. She just turned 13, for Pete's sake, to get lured out of her home with her parents at midnight. I agree there's no good reason, but there is a reason, some motivation, some enhancement, something to get her out of that home. The big key will be, you know, you get more information off of that phone. If there were

Starting point is 00:13:19 text messages or if he got close to the home, the home Wi-Fi would register on his phone. There's got to be some motivation and that's got to be documented and it can be documented through that phone. Tennessee teen Savannah Copeland has vanished suddenly during the night and her father has not heard from her for hours. Where is 13-year-old Tennessee cheerleader Savannah? And then mom and dad's worst nightmare, worst nightmare comes true. At around 4 45 this afternoon through dispatch, we received a call on a possible deceased body on a trail over in Broad Acres subdivision. Our officers responded to that, did find a body. Reaching out to the Knox County Sheriff's Office, deputies begin searching for Savannah Copeland. Nearly 12 hours after deputies are called in to help search,

Starting point is 00:14:19 Michael Copeland hears sirens and says he knew they had to be for Savannah, a teen walking along a popular trail that runs behind a public swimming pool in the Broadacres neighborhood in Powell finds the lifeless body of Savannah Copeland. Savannah Copeland has been stabbed multiple times by what appears to be a small knife and left to bleed to death alone on the dirt trail. You are hearing our friend Sheriff Tom Spangler with Knox County, Tennessee Sheriff's Office, along with our friends at WATE6. To Dr. Kendall Crowns joining us, renowned chief medical examiner at Tarrant County, that's Fort Worth, and esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU. Dr. Crowns, thank you for being with us. How can you look at multiple stabbings and determine, A, when there's overlapping stabs, how many times the victim has been stabbed, and, two, that the knife used, the cutting instrument was, as it has been said, shallow? So you can look at the stab wounds and get an actual count. Sometimes when they crisscross and overlap, you can still get an idea based on how

Starting point is 00:15:32 the other stab wounds, what the stab wounds would look like, and kind of separate out the ones that have crisscrossed or overlapped and get an approximate count. Now determining whether the knife is a short blade or a long blade can be difficult because the body has what is called elasticity or when you push in it can deform a little bit. And so you can shove a short bladed knife in deeper than the actual length of the blade. So determining the overall blade length

Starting point is 00:16:02 sometimes can be difficult, but you can get a rough approximation depending on the depth of the stab wound. Back to the overlapping stab wounds. And I encountered this in the investigation in the stabbing death of Travis Alexander by Jody Arias, may she rot in hell. He was stabbed and it was argued over and over and over how many times Travis had been stabbed before he was shot in the head. Some authorities said 27, 28, 29, and 30 times due to overlapping stab wounds where you are in a frenzy stab mode and you stab repeatedly and some of the stab wounds are actually exactly where other stab wounds are. Now the pliability of human flesh also lends to confusion in determining how many stab wounds. Explain. So those are what is called Mies lines.

Starting point is 00:17:10 It's what when your surgeon is doing an operation, they try to cut along those lines to make it so the skin doesn't pull apart and creates less of a scar. So when you're being stabbed, they're not concerned about your cosmetics. So they'll go against these meselines and the skin itself will pull apart and make the wounds look gaping or enlarged based on that pulling apart of the skin. And again, also with stab wounds, you have to consider that they don't necessarily just stick the knife in, but they'll also stick it in and then pull it down, making large gaping holes as well. So they can be very confusing when you get multiple stab wounds of this nature, which we generally call overkill because you don't need to stab someone that many times to kill them.

Starting point is 00:17:56 In this case, it was determined very quickly that a small knife was used to murder the 13-year-old cheerleader, Savannah Copeland. And let me add, she has a twin brother. She has two brothers. Let me think their names. Twin brother, Casey, and other brother, Britton, as I recall. That said, a special bond between twins is like no other. Boy-girl twins and another brother. That said, back to the number of stabbings and the assumption that a small knife was used. A small knife, and this is probative as well, and I'll explain later, a small knife is deemed to be two to six inches long. Okay. Could that be a pocket knife, Dr. Kendall Crowns? Yes, that could definitely be a pocket knife. Usually they're small blades that are opened and fixed. Another issue, Dr. Kendall Crowns, and believe me,

Starting point is 00:19:12 all of this is critical as it comes to proving this case. We know all about Brian Koberger, right? We wish we didn't, but we do. In that case, the killer, who the state says is Brian Koberger, murdered four people in what appeared to be a frenzy stabbing because they were slashed and stabbed multiple times. It was anything but a frenzy stabbing. In that case, a fixed blade knife was used. How is that different from a pocket knife? And how can you tell from the stab wounds that a fixed blade or a shallow knife, such as a pocket knife, was used? How can you differentiate that? This is important. So pocket knives, when you open them up, will become fixed at the end when you lock it into place. So it will be a fixed blade at that point. One thing you can look for with a pocket knife, if it's driven all the way into the hilt,

Starting point is 00:20:07 it will leave basically an abrasion, kind of a semicircular abrasion around the stab wound itself. If you're using a larger fixed blade knife, you can get similar injuries when the knife is shoved in all the way again to the hilt or the crossguard, whatever you want to say, and it will leave pattern abrasion marks on there. So what you're looking for with the pocket knife is you look for those characteristics, kind of abrasions around the side of the stab wound, whereas if you have a large fixed knife, you look, the abrasions from the cross guard itself. A gruesome discovery along a popular trail path. 13 year old Savannah Copeland's body has been found brutally stabbed just hours after she's gone missing. Who killed the 13 year old athlete? Who lured a 13 year old little girl out of her home while her parents were sleeping after midnight. Now to listen to defense attorney Philip Dubay, who does not have children, I might add,

Starting point is 00:21:13 that's just normal. It's not normal. It is normal for teens, even children to communicate on their phones and their tablets, but getting lured out of your home after midnight or at any time is not normal. And why would you do that after midnight? So the parents can't know unless it was for a nefarious reason. We're talking about a 13 year old little girl just turned one of a set of twins, her brother and other siblings left behind. To add to the tragedy, if that can even be imagined, the perp is identified. Tonight, just around 9 p.m., detectives identified a person of interest and arrested a 15-year-old male and is being charged with second-degree murder in the death of a 13-year-old young lady. A 15-year-old boy just turned, by the way. You were just hearing Sheriff Tom Spangler of Knox County, Tennessee Sheriff's Office from WATE6.

Starting point is 00:22:28 But the dad, Savannah's father, weighs in. Listen. It was a betrayal of trust. I'm angry at this kid's family that I have opinions about now. Not only a 15-year-old boy just turned 15, but also known to the family, a family friend. You heard Michael Copeland, Savannah's dad, speaking to our friends at WATE6. He calls it a betrayal of trust.

Starting point is 00:23:00 He said he's angry at the boy's family that he now has opinions about. I'd like to hear what those opinions are. Why was the boy out at that time of night? Why was he luring a little girl who had just turned 13 out of her home? So many questions swirling right now. But I want to circle back to Dr. Kendall Crowns joining us, medical examiner at Tarrant County, chief medical examiner at Tarrant County. Savannah, a 13-year-old little girl, bled out.

Starting point is 00:23:34 She didn't get apparently stabbed in the heart, so she died instantly. She laid there in the middle of the night, all alone in the woods as her life's blood slipped out of her. How long would it have taken her to die? Dr. Kendall Crowns. If she's not stabbed in the heart, it depends on what vessel is hit, how many times she's stabbed. It can be minutes to anywhere from a few minutes to 10 to 15 minutes, depending on what gets stabbed. Veteran trial lawyer, Philip Dubay, defense attorney out of LA. So this may have been a frenzy attack with so many stab wounds, but given the probative evidence,

Starting point is 00:24:20 the evidence we're going to find out at autopsy. He would have left her there on the ground in the woods at 2.30 a.m. all alone and walked away as she died. Thoughts? Well, first of all, you're asking a 15-year-old to think like an adult and to render aid and to try to get help. No, I'm not. I'm asking you your opinion on that. Is it anything but cold blood? Because he could have called for help to save her, but he didn't. No. One of the clues is that the prosecution filed this as a second degree. A first degree in Tennessee would be a premeditated type killing. This was clearly unpremeditated, which is probably why they filed

Starting point is 00:25:07 it as a second. If it were truly alluring that showed he had murder on his mind by keeping an unshallow folding knife on his person, then that clearly shows an intent to kill. It sounds like something erupted. There was some type of paroxysm, if you will, of fury out on that dirt trail where he suddenly erupted in blind rage and stabbed her up. But I don't think it was planned. I think it was spur of the moment, which is why they're going to do a transfer hearing at which time a judge will decide if this kid stands trial as an adult. I would like to correct you. In Tennessee, the law defines second-degree murder as one of two types. And one of those types is a knowing killing of another. Repeat, a knowing killing of another.

Starting point is 00:25:58 It is not a voluntary manslaughter, such as you are describing. When under the law, when we hear the words knowing, that means that you have a mens rea, that you have an intent, a knowledge of what you're doing, a knowing killing. This is not a voluntary manslaughter. It's not a DUI where you get drunk, but you did not intend on actually killing somebody. This is a knowing killing, as you just tried to pull the wool over my eyes. In Tennessee, it's a knowing killing. That's murder too. No, I understand. But remember, there's two ways. You can do it explicitly or implicitly. If he stabbed her four or five times and kept doing it, yes, it is so reckless that anybody could infer subjectively and objectively an intent to kill without actually uttering the words, I am going to take you out. Your life is over. The conduct of engaging in repeated stabbing suggests and implies that intent to kill.

Starting point is 00:27:04 Who do you think you're talking to? Do you think I just fell off a turnip truck? I have tried many, many homicides. Don't try to muddy the water by spouting out the definitions under the law of implicit and express intent, because the law says murder can be proved by implicit evidence, implicit intent or express. Now, implicit. Let me start with express. That's when I say, Dubé, I'm killing you now. And then I shoot you. My words have expressly shown I intend to kill you. Implicit means the jury can judge by the actions or other extrinsic evidence, such as repeat stabbing.

Starting point is 00:27:52 If he did not mean to kill her, then why stab her over and over and over and leave her to bleed out dead? You know, so all of your legal mumbo jumbo, don't even try that with me, Dubay, because the law says intent can be proven implicitly or expressly. And I would argue to a jury that with this many stab wounds, he had to intend to kill her, which supports a knowing killing, which is murder to under Tennessee law. Are you saying that's wrong? No, but the end game here is to spare this kid a transfer to the adult court. Just wasted 45 seconds of my time. No, the victory would be to keep the kid in juvenile court because he would max out, I think, at age 21.

Starting point is 00:28:38 Whereas if he's found unsuitable for juvenile court, he'll go upstairs to adult court where he could, in theory, do up to 60 years. And by the way, it was brilliant for the prosecution not to file this as a first degree because the jury could come back or the court could come back with a life without parole type sentence. So at some point, this young man will get out. A 15-year-old boy is taken into custody after the brutal stabbing death of 13-year-old Tennessee cheerleader Savannah Copeland. Investigators are not saying what led them to arrest 15-year-old Malachiya Harris for the murder of Savannah Copeland. Harris is someone the Copeland family knows, someone they have befriended. Investigators haven't said what the motive for the murder is yet, but Malachiya Harris is charged with second second degree murder in the death of the teen. To Lauren Collin, investigative reporter, Lauren, explain to me how she was found.

Starting point is 00:29:30 How was 13 year old Savannah Copeland found? While her parents were searching for her, Nancy, they heard sirens in the distance and they thought to themselves, oh my gosh, this can't be good. And unfortunately, while a teen was walking the trail, he came across Savannah's body and called the authorities. I'm wondering how long this little girl suffered. A petition released by the court accuses 15-year-old Malachi Harris of stabbing Savannah multiple times with a pocket knife he took with him that night when he lured her out of her home after midnight, leaving her alone on the trail, telling no one her body laid there undiscovered until late the next day when a teen walking the trail finds her lifeless.

Starting point is 00:30:33 Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Lauren Cullen again, I understand prosecutors announced they will try Malachi Harris as an adult. They want to. And on January 14th, there is going to be a hearing that will determine if he will be tried as an adult. But in the meantime, he is being held at the juvenile detention center that is called Richard L. Bean in Knoxville. And that, Nancy, is not a happy place. To Philip DeBay, a high-profile defense lawyer out of L.A., the, as many jurisdictions call it, bind over process is when a juvenile is, quote, bound over or transferred to adult superior court. In most jurisdictions, there is a semblance

Starting point is 00:31:29 of the seven deadlies, seven deadly sins that almost automatically ensure a teen will be treated as an adult. I want to remind everyone that a teen is never put in an adult jail. If they are tried and sentenced as an adult, they go to a juvenile facility until they become 21. Then they go into an adult facility. Back to the bind over process and the seven deadlies. I should have these memorized. I don't. The seven deadlies that guarantee you a bind over to adult court, murder, rape, sodomy, child molestation, armed robbery, arson, and aggravated assault. Those are the seven. Aggravated assault with a weapon such as a knife or a gun. When you shoot somebody, those almost guarantee you'll be treated as an adult. What's your response, Dubay?

Starting point is 00:32:37 Not in Tennessee. They do it a little bit differently. Their removal process requires a probable cause finding that the crime has been committed and that given the minor's age, prior rehabilitative efforts, the sophistication of the crime, any mental health history, certainly whether or not the minor has a criminal record, and that the interest of the community would be served, the minor can be removed out of juvenile to the adult court jurisdiction. And the stakes, as you know, Nancy, are quite high. This young man under Tennessee law could do between 15 and 60 years

Starting point is 00:33:16 in the state prison after the age of 18. Also, you pointed out, as I expected, how long a sentence could be if a teen is treated as an adult. What you did not point out is how light a sentence could be in juvenile, juvenile, juvie court, juvie jail. He could walk free in as little as 18 months with time credit for dating back to the time he was arrested, 18 months for multiple stab wounds on a 13-year-old girl left to bleed out in the woods at 2.30 a.m. away from her mother, away from her father and her home. I want to talk about premeditation because to you, Barry Hutchinson joining me,

Starting point is 00:34:07 former law enforcement, now chief investigator at Barry and Associates Investigations. Barry, when you lure a little girl out of her home, and as was said earlier by somebody, that's going to be determined by looking at text messages, phone calls, snaps, you name it. The intent will be there, I believe, that helped lure her out. But also the fact that he goes to get her carrying a knife. So then they don't just go walk around the block. They don't sneak down to Waffle House. He lures her to a densely wooded area, a secret location. All of that shows intent to me. I would agree with you a thousand percent, Nancy. I mean, he obviously had nefarious ideas.

Starting point is 00:34:58 I mean, why would he be taking her to a remote area? I mean, to me, it all points to him wanting to have some kind of a sexual escapade with the young lady. Oh my goodness. I just wrote down the word sex question mark. Lauren Conlon, what is his motivation? Is it because he tried to have sex with a little girl, i.e. rape her and she refused? Or is it something akin to Brian Koberger who wanted the thrill of a kill? Do we know anything such as was she unclothed? Nancy, I have been digging and trying to figure out what his motive would be. And I come to the same conclusion as you here as it was possibly sexually motivated. We don't know if she was found partially clothed or fully clothed. But I did notice on this young man's social media, he follows the high school band, the Powell band. So he didn't seem

Starting point is 00:35:57 like he was into gang activity at all, because, you know, that also crossed my mind. Could this possibly be? Did you say he was in the band? Wait, did you say he was in the band? I do not know if he's in the band, but on his Facebook, he follows only three things. And one of them is the Powell High School band. The teen accused of killing Savannah Copeland has been in court for status hearings at least four times. The suspect has sat quietly in the court, even as he learned that state prosecutors intend to try Harris as an adult. Judge Tim Irwin has set a transfer hearing for January 14th, and that is the discovery deadline as well. Harris's court-appointed attorney,

Starting point is 00:36:37 Josh Hedrick, has filed a request for discovery. Assistant District Attorney General Rachel Hill told the court that genetic testing and other forensic testing results may not be back until after the first of the year. Very little has been released about Harris so far. We know that he was known to the Copeland family, who has at times welcomed him into their home. Harris was living with his grandfather and several siblings at the time of the killing. Harris is being held in the Richard L. Bean detention facility. Not just a teen boy, but a family friend who the Copelands had welcomed into their home on multiple occasions. The degree of betrayal runs deep.

Starting point is 00:37:21 And you hear the father state he is angry at the perps family as well. And to Lauren Conlon, I've got so many questions, but explain to me what this boy's demeanor was in court. He was described, Nancy, as emotionless, kind of looking down at his hands. He didn't appear to have any type of remorse. You know, I'm very curious about the defense, Philip Dubé, because if he claims that it wasn't him, the fact that they are waiting for genetic testing indicates to me that they think they found DNA, likely his DNA at the scene or her DNA possibly on his

Starting point is 00:38:07 clothing. I don't know, but there is DNA that's being tested right now. It reminds me of Koberger who almost got away with it if he had not left DNA on the snap of a knife hilt. So if there is DNA, he can't climb, it wasn't me. He's going to have to go with mental defect. And that's why it's so important that I'm able to match the knife up, his pocket knife, to those wounds. Exactly. Otherwise, there really is no defense for the young man other than a mental defense. And obviously, he gave a statement to the police would be my guess. The science evidence might not under these circumstances be enough, but it sounds like he copped out, frankly. We're going to find out a lot about this young man. Given his age, he could have been in the throes of early onset schizophrenia, bipolar disorder,

Starting point is 00:39:02 or who knows, maybe even a personality disorder. And again, the goal, the end game at the transfer hearing is not innocence. It's to keep him retained in the juvenile court jurisdiction. I'll just stop right there. Number one, do you have a shred, a scintilla, a speck of evidence that he has schizophrenia or did you just make that up? No, I'm just telling you that's going to be explored when you hear like for example lauren is talking about no evidence no but there was a flat affect in court you have no emotion there's something obviously ailing the young man yes yeah guilt to dr joryon, could you explain why a personality disorder that Philip Dubé just fabricated is not a defense?

Starting point is 00:39:52 It does not rise to a mental defect and it is certainly not insanity. It could be, for all I know, histrionic or narcissistic. That's not a mental defense. Yeah, neither of those are mental defects as far as like a defense. You know, keep in mind insanity is a legal term. It's not a psychological diagnosis or anything. What you're going to be looking at is his mental state at the time and of the commission of the crime and what led up to that. That's why it's important to know about that relationship and things that happened there, because you're going to have behavioral traits, you're going to have his

Starting point is 00:40:27 personality displayed, and that's something that you can document. And when he does a court evaluation, the evaluator would get into those dynamics to be able to come up with a diagnosis to present to the court. I'm just looking at these cheerleader photos and imagining my little girl at age 13. If you know or think you know anything about this case, anything at all, B-S-O-TIP-2847-411. At this moment, the state is building its case and the defense is building its own case. We wait for justice to unfold. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - TEEN CHEERLEADER FRENZY STABBED BY BOY, 15, DAD TRIES TRACKING APP TO FIND BODY

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